What is your opinion on the war in Iraq???

people have a choice whether to do evil or not. initiating force against others (invading iraq) is evil.

yes, i advocate immediate and complete withdrawal. whether this would result in more or less deaths is debatable and beside the point. you don't become responsible for the welfare of others by invading them.

giton

What if you are the one who destroyed their government? Does that not make you liable for their wellbeing? Wouldn't it be our fault that a political vaccuum occurs because we did not stay long enough to ensure a stable government was established?

Should we have left Saddam in power? Sure, he killed people by the thousands sometimes, just for religious reasons, but having him in power would have averted a civil war. I think we did the right thing and have to stay now.

Besides, if we pull out and there is a vaccuum you know "the World" will just piss all over us. Even if they want us out of Iraq. And I'd put my money on you being front and center in this pissing contest.

... but the soldiers, the guys who implement the tactics, are trying to help others, irregardless of what the politicians are saying.

xXBuffJeffXx

the guys are misguided. you cannot help people by invading their country, destroying their infrastructure, and by killing them. this is just common sense.

As much as I agree with you, I also realize the solution isn't as simple as just bringing our troops home.

The Bush administration has put this country in a very sticky situation. Namely, if we pull out of Iraq now, what will stop Iran from gaining influence in the country? Surely you don't want that do you?

PancakesNBacon

slipppery slope argument. in any case, the damage was done when the US invaded. the more you meddle, the more angry the hornets become. leave them alone. you owe them nothing.

[QUOTE="morewasabi"]

I was against invading Iraq in the first place, but now that we've blasted the hell out of the country and sent it spiraling into civil war we do have an obligation to help put things back together. If we pull out any time soon it seems inevitable that the Iraqi government will be unable to hold the country together and a civil war will result. Any blood spilt in such a war will be on our hands.

giton

no that is not true that any blood spilt in aggressions after pulling out will be on "our" hands. i never killed anyone in iraq. did you? you think you are responsible because your rulers sent troops to iraq?

The people of any democracy hold some responsibility for the actions of their rulers. Who do you think elected them?

The United States screwed up Iraq, and so the United States holds the responsibility to put the pieces back together. If we tear the country apart and then go home then we are responsible for the aftermath.

[QUOTE="xXBuffJeffXx"]

... but the soldiers, the guys who implement the tactics, are trying to help others, irregardless of what the politicians are saying.

giton

the guys are misguided. you cannot help people by invading their country, destroying their infrastructure, and by killing them. this is just common sense.

Well, if all would have went according to plan we would have rebuilt the infrastructure we destroyed and then some. Of course, the leaders were way too optimistic and naive to plan for the worst so it never worked out that way. We also wouldn't be killing civilians if the knuckleheads weren't shooting at us. I concede that we should not have gone in in the first place, but that is no longer a relevant fact because we need to give it just a little longer to see if it's feasible to help these people get their country on track.

[QUOTE="giton"]

people have a choice whether to do evil or not. initiating force against others (invading iraq) is evil.

yes, i advocate immediate and complete withdrawal. whether this would result in more or less deaths is debatable and beside the point. you don't become responsible for the welfare of others by invading them.

cametall

What if you are the one who destroyed their government? Does that not make you liable for their wellbeing? Wouldn't it be our fault that a political vaccuum occurs because we did not stay long enough to ensure a stable government was established? cametall

No, if I destroyed their government, it would make me liable for the damage i caused. it's arguable whether destroying a government is actually evil, though. in any case, it would not make me responsible for the wellbeing of anyone there. your argument is the same as the christian notion of original sin, a taint that one cannot be cleansed of except by supernatural means.

another point is that "we" did not invade Iraq. our rulers did that. it's a mistake to use the slave speech "we" when you really mean the bush administration and congress.

Should we have left Saddam in power? Sure, he killed people by the thousands sometimes, just for religious reasons, but having him in power would have averted a civil war. I think we did the right thing and have to stay now.cametall

yes, we should have left Saddam in power. he was an evil man, but it was not our obligation to remove him. incidentally, saddam killed people for political reasons, not especially for religious reasons. not that it makes a lot of difference.

Besides, if we pull out and there is a vaccuum you know "the World" will just piss all over us. Even if they want us out of Iraq. And I'd put my money on you being front and center in this pissing contest.

cametall

that's not any kind of valid argument I've ever heard of. what the world thinks of the US for pulling out is completely irrelevant. and you are mistaken. i would applaud the withdrawal. the best thing we can do for anyone is to leave them alone and stop meddling in their affairs.

I think its dumb, the Iraqi's want to blow eachother up thats fine, but we shouldn't waste our time, resources, and men their.

These groups in Iraq have been fighting eachother for a long time, maybe even hundreds, possibly thousands of years, Saddam was evil and killed millions, but he kept them in check, now that the big bad Daddie is dead, the Children will fight eachother.

I think we need to pull out. Most of our casualties are from suicide bombers, we've taken pretty minimal casualties in actual firefights, so its not like our troops failed, its just that Bush sucks.

However I still support our troops and am completely pro Military, I want to join the Marines myself and my dad wad in the MArines for 4 years and loved it, I even grew up around Camp Lajoune when I was a baby until I was 4.

Also, this war can't be for oil, we've already spent way too much on the war itself to make any money off it, and most of the oil comes from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Canada, and South America, and of course Alaska.

So what do you think???

NicktehImperial

They didn't blow eachother up until we went there. Or at least they didnt blow themselves up as much.

Hello??? I thought these political Threads were supposed to draw posters in???NicktehImperial

Ok if you want myu opinion, war over Iraq, here it goes:

Iraq´s war wasn´t needed, necessary or moved because of good interests. The real motivation behind that war was getting cheap oil, reconstructing Iraq (which means incomes towards constructors and paid work to US) and showing off military power. The war is right now impossible to sustain under any logic circumstance. The "terrible dictator" is gone, and still problems are going. The supposed purpose of the war failed. The true one, money, is as profitable as ever.

[QUOTE="giton"][QUOTE="morewasabi"]

I was against invading Iraq in the first place, but now that we've blasted the hell out of the country and sent it spiraling into civil war we do have an obligation to help put things back together. If we pull out any time soon it seems inevitable that the Iraqi government will be unable to hold the country together and a civil war will result. Any blood spilt in such a war will be on our hands.

morewasabi

no that is not true that any blood spilt in aggressions after pulling out will be on "our" hands. i never killed anyone in iraq. did you? you think you are responsible because your rulers sent troops to iraq?

The people of any democracy hold some responsibility for the actions of their rulers. Who do you think elected them?

The United States screwed up Iraq, and so the United States holds the responsibility to put the pieces back together. If we tear the country apart and then go home then we are responsible for the aftermath.

you keep wanting to equate the people of a country with the actions of the rulers. they aren't the same thing. subjects are not allowed to make such decisions. rulers make them. who elected them? not i - i do not vote because I do not support coercion and violence.

we are not the united states. we are subjects of a government that is becoming more and more totalitarian every day. read your Orwell signature quote again.

I think the war is the most insanely idiotic thing that our poor disgrace of a president, George "I'm an idiot" Bush, has ever not thought of!!!!

Our country is now officially dumber for having elected him!!!!! :evil:

[QUOTE="morewasabi"][QUOTE="giton"][QUOTE="morewasabi"]

I was against invading Iraq in the first place, but now that we've blasted the hell out of the country and sent it spiraling into civil war we do have an obligation to help put things back together. If we pull out any time soon it seems inevitable that the Iraqi government will be unable to hold the country together and a civil war will result. Any blood spilt in such a war will be on our hands.

giton

no that is not true that any blood spilt in aggressions after pulling out will be on "our" hands. i never killed anyone in iraq. did you? you think you are responsible because your rulers sent troops to iraq?

The people of any democracy hold some responsibility for the actions of their rulers. Who do you think elected them?

The United States screwed up Iraq, and so the United States holds the responsibility to put the pieces back together. If we tear the country apart and then go home then we are responsible for the aftermath.

you keep wanting to equate the people of a country with the actions of the rulers. they aren't the same thing. subjects are not allowed to make such decisions. rulers make them. who elected them? not i - i do not vote because I do not support coercion and violence.

The people of ANY nation are responsible for the actions of their rulers. While this is less true for some forms of government than others, it is especially true for Democracy. If the policies of a leader do not reflect the will of his constituents then he is unlikely to be elected in the first place and certainly will not survive re-election. On the other hand, if a leader is consistently elected and re-elected it is logical to conclude that his policies represent the general will of his people.

Once you have participated in the Democratic process you are bound to accept the result, whether or not your "side" won. The only alternative is anarchy. If you foolishly choose to give up your voice and refuse to vote then you forfeit the right to complain about the outcome of the election.

we are not the united states.
giton

Then what are we? Canada?

we are subjects of a government that is becoming more and more totalitarian every day. read your Orwell signature quote again.
giton

If you need an exaple of totalitarianism look at Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia or Fascist Italy or Maoist China or Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge or even 1984. America has no resemblance to any of these. It is true that we have been forced to trade some freedom for safety to survive in the modern world, but we are nowhere near totalitarianism.

[QUOTE="giton"][QUOTE="morewasabi"][QUOTE="giton"][QUOTE="morewasabi"]

I was against invading Iraq in the first place, but now that we've blasted the hell out of the country and sent it spiraling into civil war we do have an obligation to help put things back together. If we pull out any time soon it seems inevitable that the Iraqi government will be unable to hold the country together and a civil war will result. Any blood spilt in such a war will be on our hands.

morewasabi

no that is not true that any blood spilt in aggressions after pulling out will be on "our" hands. i never killed anyone in iraq. did you? you think you are responsible because your rulers sent troops to iraq?

The people of any democracy hold some responsibility for the actions of their rulers. Who do you think elected them?

The United States screwed up Iraq, and so the United States holds the responsibility to put the pieces back together. If we tear the country apart and then go home then we are responsible for the aftermath.

you keep wanting to equate the people of a country with the actions of the rulers. they aren't the same thing. subjects are not allowed to make such decisions. rulers make them. who elected them? not i - i do not vote because I do not support coercion and violence.

The people of ANY nation are responsible for the actions of their rulers. While this is less true for some forms of government than others, it is especially true for Democracy. If the policies of a leader do not reflect the will of his constituents then he is unlikely to be elected in the first place and certainly will not survive re-election. On the other hand, if a leader is consistently elected and re-elected it is logical to conclude that his policies represent the general will of his people.

Once you have participated in the Democratic process you are bound to accept the result, whether or not your "side" won. The only alternative is anarchy. If you foolishly choose to give up your voice and refuse to vote then you forfeit the right to complain about the outcome of the election.

no, you really don't get it? people and their country are not one and the same. so-called democracy (not the system the US uses anyway) does not determine who your ruler will be. voting does nothing but grant the appearance of legitimacy to one authoritarian or another. it makes no difference whether the authoritarian is an ass or an elephant, you will still be ruled and you will have no meaningful input into how you are ruled.

"We vote? What does that mean? It means that we choose between two
bodies of real, though not avowed, autocrats. We choose between
Tweedledum and Tweedledee." [Helen Keller]

I certainly do not give up any right to "complain" or voice dissent or express my opinion about the outcome of any election by choosing not to vote. That has got to be one of the most rediculous concepts I've ever heard. You are saying that if I do not help to enslave myself or contribute to the appearance of legitimacy of the gangs who rule us, then I have no right to object? I have MORE right to dissent than any voter. Voting is immoral. Voting isn't a right, it's a form of assault because you don't have a right to compel anyone else or subject them to your preferred form of slavery either directly or indirectly.

Does a slave loose his right to rebel against his ruler because he refuses to accede that his ruler owns him? Hell no!

[QUOTE="giton"]
we are not the united states.
morewasabi

Then what are we? Canada?

I'm sure my meaning is clear. identifying yourself with the country itself by using the slave speech "we" does not erase your individuality or disguise your state of slavery. "The US" is not you, and it is not me.

[QUOTE="giton"]
we are subjects of a government that is becoming more and more totalitarian every day. read your Orwell signature quote again.
morewasabi

If you need an exaple of totalitarianism look at Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia or Fascist Italy or Maoist China or Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge or even 1984. America has no resemblance to any of these. It is true that we have been forced to trade some freedom for safety to survive in the modern world, but we are nowhere near totalitarianism.

i didn't make the argument that the US is as bad as any of the countries you listed. this doesn't make it good by comparison. i predict you will wake up one day to realize that the government of the US is far more totalitarian than you now imagine.

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." [Voltaire]

"How fortunate for leaders that men do not think." [Adolf Hitler]

Keep the quote chains to around 5 quotes please.

Thanks.