This topic is locked from further discussion.
A lot more than just that.[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="Hatiko"]
"Looked around". In other words you just did a quick google search.
Hatiko
When you were 9?
I was brought up to think critically, but do heavy research if i wanted to know the truth about something. Not everyone was like you at 9 ;)[QUOTE="Hatiko"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] A lot more than just that.Nibroc420
When you were 9?
I was brought up to think critically, but do heavy research if i wanted to know the truth about something. Not everyone was like you at 9 ;)Was that a jab? I was having fun, you know, actually being a kid at 9, outside playing with the neighborhood kids. Not locked up searching for things that wouldn't really effect me in any way at the time.
I was brought up to think critically, but do heavy research if i wanted to know the truth about something. Not everyone was like you at 9 ;)[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="Hatiko"]
When you were 9?
Hatiko
Was that a jab? I was having fun, you know, actually being a kid at 9, outside playing with the neighborhood kids. Not locked up searching for things that wouldn't really effect me in any way at the time.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about religion at that age... Isn't that the kind of thing were trying to encourage in children? The desire to be educated?..just saying.[QUOTE="Hatiko"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I was brought up to think critically, but do heavy research if i wanted to know the truth about something. Not everyone was like you at 9 ;)KeitekeTokage
Was that a jab? I was having fun, you know, actually being a kid at 9, outside playing with the neighborhood kids. Not locked up searching for things that wouldn't really effect me in any way at the time.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about religion at that age... Isn't that the kind of thing were trying to encourage in children? The desire to be educated?..just saying. NO children shouldn't self-educate! They shouldn't be curious to figure out the hows or whys of things. They should run around outside eating dirt! :roll:There's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about religion at that age... Isn't that the kind of thing were trying to encourage in children? The desire to be educated?..just saying. NO children shouldn't self-educate! They shouldn't be curious to figure out the hows or whys of things. They should run around outside eating dirt! :roll: You sound like a religious official ;)Was that a jab? I was having fun, you know, actually being a kid at 9, outside playing with the neighborhood kids. Not locked up searching for things that wouldn't really effect me in any way at the time.
mindstorm
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="Hatiko"]There's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about religion at that age... Isn't that the kind of thing were trying to encourage in children? The desire to be educated?..just saying. NO children shouldn't self-educate! They shouldn't be curious to figure out the hows or whys of things. They should run around outside eating dirt! :roll:Was that a jab? I was having fun, you know, actually being a kid at 9, outside playing with the neighborhood kids. Not locked up searching for things that wouldn't really effect me in any way at the time.
Nibroc420
I never said they shouldn't be curious. If you want to sped all of the time you have to live doing research instead of living the life you study, go do it, not my life and time that was wasted.
[QUOTE="Hatiko"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I was brought up to think critically, but do heavy research if i wanted to know the truth about something. Not everyone was like you at 9 ;)KeitekeTokage
Was that a jab? I was having fun, you know, actually being a kid at 9, outside playing with the neighborhood kids. Not locked up searching for things that wouldn't really effect me in any way at the time.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about religion at that age... Isn't that the kind of thing were trying to encourage in children? The desire to be educated?..just saying.Be educated. Not go waste time on something that wont really help you when you should be enjoying life.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about religion at that age... Isn't that the kind of thing were trying to encourage in children? The desire to be educated?..just saying.[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="Hatiko"]
Was that a jab? I was having fun, you know, actually being a kid at 9, outside playing with the neighborhood kids. Not locked up searching for things that wouldn't really effect me in any way at the time.
Hatiko
Be educated. Not go waste time on something that wont really help you when you should be enjoying life.
What makes you think it's a waste of time, also how do you figure it won't help you? Being more educated about a subject never hurts, so what are you saying? Lastly, who the heck said you couldn't enjoy life and also do some religious research on the side? Boy you make a lot of nonsensical assumptions :?NO children shouldn't self-educate! They shouldn't be curious to figure out the hows or whys of things. They should run around outside eating dirt! :roll:[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] There's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about religion at that age... Isn't that the kind of thing were trying to encourage in children? The desire to be educated?..just saying.Hatiko
I never said they shouldn't be curious. If you want to sped all of the time you have to live doing research instead of living the life you study, go do it, not my life and time that was wasted.
*Sigh* Just because some people strive to live a life of drinking and ignorance, doesn't mean we all do. Took one of those personality tests the other day, it was pretty accurate in saying that i like to gain knowledge and understanding, curious learning is in my nature. Just because you dont want to learn and understand, doesn't mean we share that.[QUOTE="Hatiko"]
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] There's nothing wrong with wanting to know more about religion at that age... Isn't that the kind of thing were trying to encourage in children? The desire to be educated?..just saying.KeitekeTokage
Be educated. Not go waste time on something that wont really help you when you should be enjoying life.
What makes you think it's a waste of time, also how do you figure it won't help you? Being more educated about a subject never hurts, so what are you saying? Lastly, who the heck said you couldn't enjoy life and also do some religious research on the side? Boy you make a lot of nonsensical assumptions :?When your nine doing something like that would have been a waste of time. "Look buddies! I know something." Nobody at that age cares
How will that crap help me at 9? Oh great, I can now ace the spelling test? Really?
Are you now some higher form of evolution? It's not a skill like math that can actually be helpful.
Nonsensical? Assumptions? Fine then. Waste life on something that you can do nothing about. Finding out wether God is real or not (which by the way, you can't "research" to find that out) wont help you unless you just like feeling comfort in your own mind.
I lost it when I watched Ancient Aliens:|
[QUOTE="Hatiko"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] NO children shouldn't self-educate! They shouldn't be curious to figure out the hows or whys of things. They should run around outside eating dirt! :roll:Nibroc420
I never said they shouldn't be curious. If you want to sped all of the time you have to live doing research instead of living the life you study, go do it, not my life and time that was wasted.
*Sigh* Just because some people strive to live a life of drinking and ignorance, doesn't mean we all do. Took one of those personality tests the other day, it was pretty accurate in saying that i like to gain knowledge and understanding, curious learning is in my nature. Just because you dont want to learn and understand, doesn't mean we share that.I didn't want to do that when I was 9.
And everyone that uses "sigh" just wants to sound smart.
What makes you think it's a waste of time, also how do you figure it won't help you? Being more educated about a subject never hurts, so what are you saying? Lastly, who the heck said you couldn't enjoy life and also do some religious research on the side? Boy you make a lot of nonsensical assumptions :?[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
[QUOTE="Hatiko"]
Be educated. Not go waste time on something that wont really help you when you should be enjoying life.
Hatiko
When your nine doing something like that would have been a waste of time. "Look buddies! I know something." Nobody at that age cares
How will that crap help me at 9? Oh great, I can now ace the spelling test? Really?
Are you now some higher form of evolution? It's not a skill like math that can actually be helpful.
Nonsensical? Assumptions? Fine then. Waste life on something that you can do nothing about. Finding out wether God is real or not (which by the way, you can't "research" to find that out) wont help you unless you just like feeling comfort in your own mind.
Learning for the sake of being the more intelligent, more educated person. More education = more understanding. Do you understand?[QUOTE="Hatiko"][QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] What makes you think it's a waste of time, also how do you figure it won't help you? Being more educated about a subject never hurts, so what are you saying? Lastly, who the heck said you couldn't enjoy life and also do some religious research on the side? Boy you make a lot of nonsensical assumptions :?
Nibroc420
When your nine doing something like that would have been a waste of time. "Look buddies! I know something." Nobody at that age cares
How will that crap help me at 9? Oh great, I can now ace the spelling test? Really?
Are you now some higher form of evolution? It's not a skill like math that can actually be helpful.
Nonsensical? Assumptions? Fine then. Waste life on something that you can do nothing about. Finding out wether God is real or not (which by the way, you can't "research" to find that out) wont help you unless you just like feeling comfort in your own mind.
Learning for the sake of being the more intelligent, more educated person. More education = more understanding. Do you understand?Ya. But is being intelligent on things fun? If it is then I guess so. Knowing soemthing interesting is fun. Interesting is different for everyone.
What makes you think it's a waste of time, also how do you figure it won't help you? Being more educated about a subject never hurts, so what are you saying? Lastly, who the heck said you couldn't enjoy life and also do some religious research on the side? Boy you make a lot of nonsensical assumptions :?[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
[QUOTE="Hatiko"]
Be educated. Not go waste time on something that wont really help you when you should be enjoying life.
Hatiko
When your nine doing something like that would have been a waste of time. "Look buddies! I know something." Nobody at that age cares
How will that crap help me at 9? Oh great, I can now ace the spelling test? Really?
Are you now some higher form of evolution? It's not a skill like math that can actually be helpful.
Nonsensical? Assumptions? Fine then. Waste life on something that you can do nothing about. Finding out wether God is real or not (which by the way, you can't "research" to find that out) wont help you unless you just like feeling comfort in your own mind.
My goodness gracious, please tell me you're not being serious.
Just because you enjoy remaining ignorant doesn't mean the rest of us do, and it seems you really do enjoy your blissful ignorance. Believe it or not, some of us like to be educated, and being educated does benefit the individual greatly. I suppose being educated too early (by your standards, which are pretty low) is always a bad thing for you.
I have to say I'm kind of surprised your entire argument is essentially "yu shudnt edjucate yurself at a yung age becuz nobowdy cayres if yure edjucated moar than anyone eylse!". Is that all?
Hate to break this to you, but education is a GOOD thing.
[QUOTE="Lilyanne46"][QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] Those atheists aren't very bright :\ Although it is theoretically possible that science could one day be able to explain "everything". There's nothing that's preventing us from understanding everything there is to understand in our universe (and perhaps ones beyond ours if there are) and know, its just a matter of time, technological advancements, and capacity to hold and preserve information for future generations. So yes, science could one day "prove everything" technically.KeitekeTokage
No, they aren't. I don't even think they're atheists because they just want to separate themselves from the crowd of religious people. I understand why, but they need to do their research. It is "theoretically" true that everything can be solved. But the puzzle pieces always multiply, with new questions to be answered at any moment. I doubt humans will ever get there. I think there are an infinity of questions to be answered, and there aren't an infinity of answers, or even close. Does it make sense to you? It's really hard to explain.
It makes sense, I just don't agree that the questions that need to be answered are infinite, which is why I said its mainly just a matter of time (this assumes also that we won't die out by nuclear war, and completely ignores the red giant phase of our star happening/assumes we can find another suitable place to live, etc.) This is why I believe that humans could eventually get there under the right conditions and with enough time.Knowing everything in the entire universe is completely impossible. It's unknowable how much data there is in the entire universe. I think you doubt how large the universe actually is. They can't even really understand beyond neutrinos and quantum mechanics and that's still up for debate. Those will lead to other questions and those to other questions. It's very egocentric as a human race to believe we can solve ALL mysteries of the universe and know EVERYTHING, no matter how long we have. I know humans and humanity have limitations and that's just a fact.
Learning for the sake of being the more intelligent, more educated person. More education = more understanding. Do you understand?[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="Hatiko"]
When your nine doing something like that would have been a waste of time. "Look buddies! I know something." Nobody at that age cares
How will that crap help me at 9? Oh great, I can now ace the spelling test? Really?
Are you now some higher form of evolution? It's not a skill like math that can actually be helpful.
Nonsensical? Assumptions? Fine then. Waste life on something that you can do nothing about. Finding out wether God is real or not (which by the way, you can't "research" to find that out) wont help you unless you just like feeling comfort in your own mind.
Hatiko
Ya. But is being intelligent on things fun? If it is then I guess so. Knowing soemthing interesting is fun. Interesting is different for everyone.
So learn what is interesting to YOU. At 9 my parents were dragging me to church every sunday, i was curious, i wanted to know the truth. Pastor's are biased, everyone who visits a church is biased. So i required an objective source, in the case where there are no objective sources, research both sides, and go from there. Just because you think a 9 year old shouldn't be educated in certain things, doesn't mean some aren't curious, and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with self-educating.I lost faith in religion while in college. However, during that time my faith in Jesus Christ grew all the more. What do I mean? My faith in the rituals I participate in and my own efforts have dwindled. What has increased is my worship of God for his grace and mercy that has been established upon both me, a corrupted and corruptible human, and his church, an establishment made up of corrupted and corruptible humans.mindstorm
Well put.
It makes sense, I just don't agree that the questions that need to be answered are infinite, which is why I said its mainly just a matter of time (this assumes also that we won't die out by nuclear war, and completely ignores the red giant phase of our star happening/assumes we can find another suitable place to live, etc.) This is why I believe that humans could eventually get there under the right conditions and with enough time.[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="Lilyanne46"]
No, they aren't. I don't even think they're atheists because they just want to separate themselves from the crowd of religious people. I understand why, but they need to do their research. It is "theoretically" true that everything can be solved. But the puzzle pieces always multiply, with new questions to be answered at any moment. I doubt humans will ever get there. I think there are an infinity of questions to be answered, and there aren't an infinity of answers, or even close. Does it make sense to you? It's really hard to explain.
Sunfyre7896
Knowing everything in the entire universe is completely impossible. It's unknowable how much data there is in the entire universe. I think you doubt how large the universe actually is. They can't even really understand beyond neutrinos and quantum mechanics and that's still up for debate. Those will lead to other questions and those to other questions. It's very egocentric as a human race to believe we can solve ALL mysteries of the universe and know EVERYTHING, no matter how long we have. I know humans and humanity have limitations and that's just a fact.
Uh, actually I think I have a decent understanding of the scale of our see-able universe, considering I'm an Astrophysics undergrad student right now, and the size of the universe is completely irrelevant. We aren't talking about how long it would take, but rather if time is not an issue, is it acheivable. You're assertions that "knowing everything in the entire universe is completely impossible" is completely and utterly unsupported, and you should know better. How do you KNOW that? Ironically, simply making the claim that knowing everything is impossible IS unknowable at this point.
Again, just because we (and you) don't understand something now, doesn't mean we won't be able to, that's an argument from ignorance you're making. How is egocentric to say that given enough time, its acheievable? You haven't been able to point out where an unpassable limit would be, so time is the only obstacle.
What's up with your second bold? You know humans and humanity have limitations and thats JUST A FACT? Are you kidding me? You have no way of knowing this, it is again, a completely unsupported claim based on your ignorace that because you can't possible concieve of a way it couldn't happen--therefore it could never happen. It doesn't follow at all.
[QUOTE="Hatiko"]
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] What makes you think it's a waste of time, also how do you figure it won't help you? Being more educated about a subject never hurts, so what are you saying? Lastly, who the heck said you couldn't enjoy life and also do some religious research on the side? Boy you make a lot of nonsensical assumptions :?
KeitekeTokage
When your nine doing something like that would have been a waste of time. "Look buddies! I know something." Nobody at that age cares
How will that crap help me at 9? Oh great, I can now ace the spelling test? Really?
Are you now some higher form of evolution? It's not a skill like math that can actually be helpful.
Nonsensical? Assumptions? Fine then. Waste life on something that you can do nothing about. Finding out wether God is real or not (which by the way, you can't "research" to find that out) wont help you unless you just like feeling comfort in your own mind.
My goodness gracious, please tell me you're not being serious.
Just because you enjoy remaining ignorant doesn't mean the rest of us do, and it seems you really do enjoy your blissful ignorance. Believe it or not, some of us like to be educated, and being educated does benefit the individual greatly. I suppose being educated too early (by your standards, which are pretty low) is always a bad thing for you.
I have to say I'm kind of surprised your entire argument is essentially "yu shudnt edjucate yurself at a yung age becuz nobowdy cayres if yure edjucated moar than anyone eylse!". Is that all?
Hate to break this to you, but education is a GOOD thing.
1. Stop being a "I'm smarter than you so I'm better than you pr! ck"
2. Okay, here we go. Am I 9? No. When I was 9 did I need to know about the universe? No. Did I care? No.
Now? I'm not 9. I'm alot older and now I do care. You calling me ignorant. What you think your better than me because you know more? I never said education was bad. I said knowing things that are not needed isn't needed.
[QUOTE="Hatiko"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Learning for the sake of being the more intelligent, more educated person. More education = more understanding. Do you understand?Nibroc420
Ya. But is being intelligent on things fun? If it is then I guess so. Knowing soemthing interesting is fun. Interesting is different for everyone.
So learn what is interesting to YOU. At 9 my parents were dragging me to church every sunday, i was curious, i wanted to know the truth. Pastor's are biased, everyone who visits a church is biased. So i required an objective source, in the case where there are no objective sources, research both sides, and go from there. Just because you think a 9 year old shouldn't be educated in certain things, doesn't mean some aren't curious, and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with self-educating.I don't know why but I went against my thoughts of "everyone is different".
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
[QUOTE="Hatiko"]
When your nine doing something like that would have been a waste of time. "Look buddies! I know something." Nobody at that age cares
How will that crap help me at 9? Oh great, I can now ace the spelling test? Really?
Are you now some higher form of evolution? It's not a skill like math that can actually be helpful.
Nonsensical? Assumptions? Fine then. Waste life on something that you can do nothing about. Finding out wether God is real or not (which by the way, you can't "research" to find that out) wont help you unless you just like feeling comfort in your own mind.
Hatiko
My goodness gracious, please tell me you're not being serious.
Just because you enjoy remaining ignorant doesn't mean the rest of us do, and it seems you really do enjoy your blissful ignorance. Believe it or not, some of us like to be educated, and being educated does benefit the individual greatly. I suppose being educated too early (by your standards, which are pretty low) is always a bad thing for you.
I have to say I'm kind of surprised your entire argument is essentially "yu shudnt edjucate yurself at a yung age becuz nobowdy cayres if yure edjucated moar than anyone eylse!". Is that all?
Hate to break this to you, but education is a GOOD thing.
1. Stop being a"I'm smarter than you soI'm better than youyoupr! ck"
2. Okay, here we go. Am I 9? No. When I was 9 did I need to know about the universe? No. Did I care? No.
Now? I'm not 9. I'm alot older and now I do care. You calling me ignorant. What you think your better than me because you know more? I never said education was bad. I said knowing things that are not needed isn't needed.
I never said I was better than you, I'm simply pointing out that just because you didn't care to educate yourself at age 9 doesn't mean: A) That education isn't beneficial (which it is) B) It isn't necessary C) Others wouldn't want to do it at that age You can not say that because you didn't want to educate yourself at that time then no one did, or should have. And again, saying being religiously educated at that age isn't needed is your opinion, and you keep trying to pass it off as fact. If you didn't want to learn about certain things at that age then fine, but stop trying to make it seem like anyone else who desired more knowledge than you did was automatically wasting their time. Some of us like learning, I know that's hard for you to believe.1. Stop being a"I'm smarter than you soI'm better than youyoupr! ck"Hatiko
It's not so much "better" as "having a greater understanding, on more topics" Which allows people who're educated to understand the "how's" and "why's" in the world they live in.
2. Okay, here we go. Am I 9? No. When I was 9 did I need to know about the universe? No. Did I care? No.Hatiko
No 9 year old NEEDS to know about the universe, but they need to know and understand basic concepts of the world they live in. More education = better decision making. If someone wants to understand more, why are you insulting them?
Now? I'm not 9. I'm alot older and now I do care. You calling me ignorant. What you think your better than me because you know more? I never said education was bad. I said knowing things that are not needed isn't needed.
Hatiko
"Knowing things that are not needed, isn't needed"
a bit redundant, no?
Knowing things that you dont even need to know? Like.. interesting facts about Dinosaurs? or what Pulsar's do?
Those things aren't useful for everyday life on Earth, but with a wider knowlegebase, you're able to have intelectual discussions on more topics, and you might even find something you'd like to do for a career.
PS: An ant can drag an object ~25 times it's own weight (but i guess that's useless knowlege, and you should get the MiB to erase that)
It makes me sad that some people require being threatened to be good :\Some people need a moral guide, some people don't. Its possible to have a great moral centre without threats. Can't we just accpect both?
tenaka2
[QUOTE="tenaka2"]It makes me sad that some people require being threatened to be good :\ And that some people need a book to tell them that killing, or taking things from others is wrong.Some people need a moral guide, some people don't. Its possible to have a great moral centre without threats. Can't we just accpect both?
KeitekeTokage
another religion topic.......... you yanks are on are roll. Anyway i lost faith as a kid, when i was once prayed to god that i would one day be a millionaire. Doesn't look like it's ever going to happen now.
When I was about 11 or 12.
Started watching George Carlin.
He really opened my eyes.
[QUOTE="Sunfyre7896"]
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] It makes sense, I just don't agree that the questions that need to be answered are infinite, which is why I said its mainly just a matter of time (this assumes also that we won't die out by nuclear war, and completely ignores the red giant phase of our star happening/assumes we can find another suitable place to live, etc.) This is why I believe that humans could eventually get there under the right conditions and with enough time.KeitekeTokage
Knowing everything in the entire universe is completely impossible. It's unknowable how much data there is in the entire universe. I think you doubt how large the universe actually is. They can't even really understand beyond neutrinos and quantum mechanics and that's still up for debate. Those will lead to other questions and those to other questions. It's very egocentric as a human race to believe we can solve ALL mysteries of the universe and know EVERYTHING, no matter how long we have. I know humans and humanity have limitations and that's just a fact.
Uh, actually I think I have a decent understanding of the scale of our see-able universe, considering I'm an Astrophysics undergrad student right now, and the size of the universe is completely irrelevant. We aren't talking about how long it would take, but rather if time is not an issue, is it acheivable. You're assertions that "knowing everything in the entire universe is completely impossible" is completely and utterly unsupported, and you should know better. How do you KNOW that? Ironically, simply making the claim that knowing everything is impossible IS unknowable at this point.
Again, just because we (and you) don't understand something now, doesn't mean we won't be able to, that's an argument from ignorance you're making. How is egocentric to say that given enough time, its acheievable? You haven't been able to point out where an unpassable limit would be, so time is the only obstacle.
What's up with your second bold? You know humans and humanity have limitations and thats JUST A FACT? Are you kidding me? You have no way of knowing this, it is again, a completely unsupported claim based on your ignorace that because you can't possible concieve of a way it couldn't happen--therefore it could never happen. It doesn't follow at all.
Ok, for your first assertion that my claim that not knowing everything is impossible is unsupported, you may be right in the fact that I cannot state some citation somewhere in an actual journal or book. However, can you honestly say that humanity will know how everything possibly possible or actual in the entire universe works? Also, this includes knowing every fact and bit of data in the entire universe also siince we're speaking of knowing everything possible.
Secondly, answers always lead to further questions. Do you think that at some point that there will never be another question as if once you get to a certain point, there will be a sign declaring humanity the winner and streamers will fall from the sky and music will play and we'll be rewarded that we know every single thing there is to know in the entire universe and beyond. I find that to be a scary thought actually, IF it were too happen because then we would stagnate.
Thirdly, we do have limitations. There are things that humans cannot do and that's just a fact. There are many examples beyond just not knowing things such as physical things like flying. Can a human fly without the use of a device or genetic modification. That is a fact.
I think you just have a problem with things being infinite because you cannot wrap your finite mind around them. And finite is a limitation. I'm not calling you unintelligent, just that you have limitations. This means that no human can wrap their minds around infinity. So we rationalize things so that they can be put in perspectives that we can understand.
Another thing is you say that what I stated was ironic, but what you're saying is akin to making humans God-like which is ironic according to this post and what most atheists believe in relation to God. They believe mostly in just a scientific explanation and to say that science will make us know everything is being God-like and that is ironic.
Unless you can see or go to the opposite end of the universe, posing that there is an end or opposite side, you cannot postulate that everything that is knowable within our known universe so that is somewhat relevant. Just like people used to think that the earth was flat and some still do and that the sun rotated the earth, things are being discovered. So yes, we are making progress, but that also means that you cannot make the assumption that if things are this way here, they are the same there. There is just too much data in the universe to assume you can know it all even in another million years.
I meant to say that you cannot postulate that everything that is knowable in our known universe is the same as those other parts of the universe we know nothing about.
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
[QUOTE="Sunfyre7896"]
Knowing everything in the entire universe is completely impossible. It's unknowable how much data there is in the entire universe. I think you doubt how large the universe actually is. They can't even really understand beyond neutrinos and quantum mechanics and that's still up for debate. Those will lead to other questions and those to other questions. It's very egocentric as a human race to believe we can solve ALL mysteries of the universe and know EVERYTHING, no matter how long we have. I know humans and humanity have limitations and that's just a fact.
Sunfyre7896
Uh, actually I think I have a decent understanding of the scale of our see-able universe, considering I'm an Astrophysics undergrad student right now, and the size of the universe is completely irrelevant. We aren't talking about how long it would take, but rather if time is not an issue, is it acheivable. You're assertions that "knowing everything in the entire universe is completely impossible" is completely and utterly unsupported, and you should know better. How do you KNOW that? Ironically, simply making the claim that knowing everything is impossible IS unknowable at this point.
Again, just because we (and you) don't understand something now, doesn't mean we won't be able to, that's an argument from ignorance you're making. How is egocentric to say that given enough time, its acheievable? You haven't been able to point out where an unpassable limit would be, so time is the only obstacle.
What's up with your second bold? You know humans and humanity have limitations and thats JUST A FACT? Are you kidding me? You have no way of knowing this, it is again, a completely unsupported claim based on your ignorace that because you can't possible concieve of a way it couldn't happen--therefore it could never happen. It doesn't follow at all.
Ok, for your first assertion that my claim that not knowing everything is impossible is unsupported, you may be right in the fact that I cannot state some citation somewhere in an actual journal or book. However, can you honestly say that humanity will know how everything possibly possible or actual in the entire universe works? Also, this includes knowing every fact and bit of data in the entire universe also siince we're speaking of knowing everything possible.
Secondly, answers always lead to further questions. Do you think that at some point that there will never be another question as if once you get to a certain point, there will be a sign declaring humanity the winner and streamers will fall from the sky and music will play and we'll be rewarded that we know every single thing there is to know in the entire universe and beyond. I find that to be a scary thought actually, IF it were too happen because then we would stagnate.
Thirdly, we do have limitations. There are things that humans cannot do and that's just a fact. There are many examples beyond just not knowing things such as physical things like flying. Can a human fly without the use of a device or genetic modification. That is a fact.
I think you just have a problem with things being infinite because you cannot wrap your finite mind around them. And finite is a limitation. I'm not calling you unintelligent, just that you have limitations. This means that no human can wrap their minds around infinity. So we rationalize things so that they can be put in perspectives that we can understand.
Another thing is you say that what I stated was ironic, but what you're saying is akin to making humans God-like which is ironic according to this post and what most atheists believe in relation to God. They believe mostly in just a scientific explanation and to say that science will make us know everything is being God-like and that is ironic.
Unless you can see or go to the opposite end of the universe, posing that there is an end or opposite side, you cannot postulate that everything that is knowable within our known universe so that is somewhat relevant. Just like people used to think that the earth was flat and some still do and that the sun rotated the earth, things are being discovered. So yes, we are making progress, but that also means that you cannot make the assumption that if things are this way here, they are the same there. There is just too much data in the universe to assume you can know it all even in another million years.
Oh goodness.
Sunfyre, I'm sorry, but your entire argument is an argument from ignorance, the only thing you're saying here is that because we currently don't know something, and you can't concieve of a way it could ever be known, it is therefore unknowable. This is an argument from ignorance.
"Thirdly, we do have limitations. There are things that humans cannot do and that's just a fact. There are many examples beyond just not knowing things such as physical things like flying. Can a human fly without the use of a device or genetic modification. That is a fact."
What the hell are you talking about, when did the conversation become humans gaining the capability to do everything? We're talking about knowledge here, stay on topic.
Again, I asked you in the last post, and you haven't answered, so I'll ask you again:
You have not pointed out an obstacle in the progression of knowledge that is absolutely unpassable. The only thing you're saying is that you can't possible imagine our knowledge progressing that far which again an argument from ignorance, just because you can't figure it out, doesn't mean it isn't possible.
You've only asserted that there is an infinite amount of things to know, infinite mean un-ending. Do you have anything to back up that there is an infinite (un ending) amount of knowledge or things to be known?
As you showed in your first post, and in this one, you don't. That's only your conclusion based on our current state of knoweldge which means nothing. If you have nothing to back up your assertion that there is an infinite amount of knowledge to be gained then you're just treding water here. Not to be redundant, but your and humanitys lack of current knowledge does NOT show that there is a limit. Please enlighten the board and tell us what that limit is? There isn't one, you've yet to point any limit out other than "I can't possible imagine we could ever become that smart, therefore we cant". That doesn't work, sorry.
[QUOTE="Hatiko"][QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
My goodness gracious, please tell me you're not being serious.
Just because you enjoy remaining ignorant doesn't mean the rest of us do, and it seems you really do enjoy your blissful ignorance. Believe it or not, some of us like to be educated, and being educated does benefit the individual greatly. I suppose being educated too early (by your standards, which are pretty low) is always a bad thing for you.
I have to say I'm kind of surprised your entire argument is essentially "yu shudnt edjucate yurself at a yung age becuz nobowdy cayres if yure edjucated moar than anyone eylse!". Is that all?
Hate to break this to you, but education is a GOOD thing.
KeitekeTokage
1. Stop being a"I'm smarter than you soI'm better than youyoupr! ck"
2. Okay, here we go. Am I 9? No. When I was 9 did I need to know about the universe? No. Did I care? No.
Now? I'm not 9. I'm alot older and now I do care. You calling me ignorant. What you think your better than me because you know more? I never said education was bad. I said knowing things that are not needed isn't needed.
I never said I was better than you, I'm simply pointing out that just because you didn't care to educate yourself at age 9 doesn't mean: A) That education isn't beneficial (which it is) B) It isn't necessary C) Others wouldn't want to do it at that age You can not say that because you didn't want to educate yourself at that time then no one did, or should have. And again, saying being religiously educated at that age isn't needed is your opinion, and you keep trying to pass it off as fact. If you didn't want to learn about certain things at that age then fine, but stop trying to make it seem like anyone else who desired more knowledge than you did was automatically wasting their time. Some of us like learning, I know that's hard for you to believe.Thanks for repeating what nibroc420 already said but okay. I thought he took a jab at me so I took a jab at him and you came out of nowhere and punched me in the face and then I punched you both back and then we got into a discussion. And it is a fact that 9 year olds don't need to know these things.
So ya. And this: "yu shudnt edjucate yurself at a yung age becuz nobowdy cayres if yure edjucated moar than anyone eylse!".
I'm pretty sure you weren't implying anything but that I was some piece of dumb $#!#.
[QUOTE="Hatiko"]
It's not so much "better" as "having a greater understanding, on more topics" Which allows people who're educated to understand the "how's" and "why's" in the world they live in.
[QUOTE="Hatiko"]
2. Okay, here we go. Am I 9? No. When I was 9 did I need to know about the universe? No. Did I care? No.Nibroc420
No 9 year old NEEDS to know about the universe, but they need to know and understand basic concepts of the world they live in. More education = better decision making. If someone wants to understand more, why are you insulting them?
Now? I'm not 9. I'm alot older and now I do care. You calling me ignorant. What you think your better than me because you know more? I never said education was bad. I said knowing things that are not needed isn't needed.
Hatiko
"Knowing things that are not needed, isn't needed"
a bit redundant, no?
Knowing things that you dont even need to know? Like.. interesting facts about Dinosaurs? or what Pulsar's do?
Those things aren't useful for everyday life on Earth, but with a wider knowlegebase, you're able to have intelectual discussions on more topics, and you might even find something you'd like to do for a career.
PS: An ant can drag an object ~25 times it's own weight (but i guess that's useless knowlege, and you should get the MiB to erase that)
Fine. You won. I never win on here and I'm used to it. Whycan't I ever be right!
I attended solely Catholic and C of E schools, where prayer, hymns and religious teaching punctuated the day, but I can't recall a time when I thought any of it was supposed to be taken seriously. It was just one of those aspects you had to lump if you wanted a decent non-private education where I lived.
There were definitely low points later in my life when I looked for a spiritual short cut to happiness, but somehow it was never the religious answers (or people) that ended up convincing me or getting me back onto my feet.
[QUOTE="Sunfyre7896"]
[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]
Uh, actually I think I have a decent understanding of the scale of our see-able universe, considering I'm an Astrophysics undergrad student right now, and the size of the universe is completely irrelevant. We aren't talking about how long it would take, but rather if time is not an issue, is it acheivable. You're assertions that "knowing everything in the entire universe is completely impossible" is completely and utterly unsupported, and you should know better. How do you KNOW that? Ironically, simply making the claim that knowing everything is impossible IS unknowable at this point.
Again, just because we (and you) don't understand something now, doesn't mean we won't be able to, that's an argument from ignorance you're making. How is egocentric to say that given enough time, its acheievable? You haven't been able to point out where an unpassable limit would be, so time is the only obstacle.
What's up with your second bold? You know humans and humanity have limitations and thats JUST A FACT? Are you kidding me? You have no way of knowing this, it is again, a completely unsupported claim based on your ignorace that because you can't possible concieve of a way it couldn't happen--therefore it could never happen. It doesn't follow at all.
KeitekeTokage
Ok, for your first assertion that my claim that not knowing everything is impossible is unsupported, you may be right in the fact that I cannot state some citation somewhere in an actual journal or book. However, can you honestly say that humanity will know how everything possibly possible or actual in the entire universe works? Also, this includes knowing every fact and bit of data in the entire universe also siince we're speaking of knowing everything possible.
Secondly, answers always lead to further questions. Do you think that at some point that there will never be another question as if once you get to a certain point, there will be a sign declaring humanity the winner and streamers will fall from the sky and music will play and we'll be rewarded that we know every single thing there is to know in the entire universe and beyond. I find that to be a scary thought actually, IF it were too happen because then we would stagnate.
Thirdly, we do have limitations. There are things that humans cannot do and that's just a fact. There are many examples beyond just not knowing things such as physical things like flying. Can a human fly without the use of a device or genetic modification. That is a fact.
I think you just have a problem with things being infinite because you cannot wrap your finite mind around them. And finite is a limitation. I'm not calling you unintelligent, just that you have limitations. This means that no human can wrap their minds around infinity. So we rationalize things so that they can be put in perspectives that we can understand.
Another thing is you say that what I stated was ironic, but what you're saying is akin to making humans God-like which is ironic according to this post and what most atheists believe in relation to God. They believe mostly in just a scientific explanation and to say that science will make us know everything is being God-like and that is ironic.
Unless you can see or go to the opposite end of the universe, posing that there is an end or opposite side, you cannot postulate that everything that is knowable within our known universe so that is somewhat relevant. Just like people used to think that the earth was flat and some still do and that the sun rotated the earth, things are being discovered. So yes, we are making progress, but that also means that you cannot make the assumption that if things are this way here, they are the same there. There is just too much data in the universe to assume you can know it all even in another million years.
Oh goodness.
Sunfyre, I'm sorry, but your entire argument is an argument from ignorance, the only thing you're saying here is that because we currently don't know something, and you can't concieve of a way it could ever be known, it is therefore unknowable. This is an argument from ignorance.
"Thirdly, we do have limitations. There are things that humans cannot do and that's just a fact. There are many examples beyond just not knowing things such as physical things like flying. Can a human fly without the use of a device or genetic modification. That is a fact."
What the hell are you talking about, when did the conversation become humans gaining the capability to do everything? We're talking about knowledge here, stay on topic.
Again, I asked you in the last post, and you haven't answered, so I'll ask you again:
You have not pointed out an obstacle in the progression of knowledge that is absolutely unpassable. The only thing you're saying is that you can't possible imagine our knowledge progressing that far which again an argument from ignorance, just because you can't figure it out, doesn't mean it isn't possible.
You've only asserted that there is an infinite amount of things to know, infinite mean un-ending. Do you have anything to back up that there is an infinite (un ending) amount of knowledge or things to be known?
As you showed in your first post, and in this one, you don't. That's only your conclusion based on our current state of knoweldge which means nothing. If you have nothing to back up your assertion that there is an infinite amount of knowledge to be gained then you're just treding water here. Not to be redundant, but your and humanitys lack of current knowledge does NOT show that there is a limit. Please enlighten the board and tell us what that limit is? There isn't one, you've yet to point any limit out other than "I can't possible imagine we could ever become that smart, therefore we cant". That doesn't work, sorry.
Does the universe have an edge or is it ever expanding or is it limitless? If it has an edge then yes, with infinte time we could, in theory, know everything there is to know possibly. And that's a big possibly and not a truth. If it is ever expanding, then there is a high possibility that by the time we achieved the capability to explore the edges of the universe at this point, it would be out of our reach as each time we explored an edge, we wouldn't be able to explore another edge because that would be ever expanding. And finally, if it is infinite, then we would never be able to explore all of it and know everything. I'm not stating I know everything. I'm just stating that it depends on the size of the universe as to know everything, you have to actually observe something and not make an assumption on what it might look like.
I never lost faith. I used to be Agnostic. I never went to church growing up and have always liked to read and learn. I agree that education and learning is a good thing to have.
When I was in my 20s, I decided to learn more about religion. I sat down and read the Bible. I not only read that book but also studied it in depth as I do all things I am interested in. I became more and more interested, so expanded my knowledge to sources other than the Bible. I read more and more books on various religions – the Internet wasn't around back then. I kept reading and decided to get baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I felt it was the right thing to do.
After my baptism, the Internet was available, so I read as much as I could. I felt I made the right decision and made this decision based on everything I have learned in my 25+ years. I wanted to know more and understand more. I read numerous articles on the Internet, and anything online I could get my hands on. I am now over 40 and have knowledge, through many years of studying and learning, that the decision I made 20+ years ago was the right one.
I spent my life buried in computers and electronics. I love all things electrical and mechanical. Science, physics and math are all integral parts of my life. Can't say I ever lost faith in my religion though.
Also I find this quite funny. Growing up I didn't beleive in anything the other kids beleived in. Not Santa, the tooth fairy or all that junk. But I always beleived in God. All my life I've felt like I'm the outside looking in.
And that's a big possibly and not a truth. If it is ever expanding, then there is a high possibility that by the time we achieved the capability to explore the edges of the universe at this point, it would be out of our reach as each time we explored an edge, we wouldn't be able to explore another edge because that would be ever expanding. And finally, if it is infinite, then we would never be able to explore all of it and know everything. Sunfyre7896
This is speculative musing at best, but more importantly you're speaking in terms of our current technology which is the point I've been trying to make to you the entire time. You're assuming that we'll only have the techiniques we do now, thousands of years into the future for example. This completely ignores a myriad of what are now sci-fi technological advances (some that would allow us to travel through worm-holes for example) but as explained in books like Micho Kaku's Physics of the Future (Great read!) they are theoretically possible and very real possiblities of the future (again, back to the sufficient time thing we've agreed on now). Not only that, but theres no reason why technologies that neither I or you or Michio can even concieve of yet could be very real technologies in the far future. Because of this your speculations simply don't mean anything the same way primitive man's speculations of not being able to ever warm something by any other method than fire (now we have the microwave) meant absolutely nothing. Or how about people who thought we would never be able to transmit messages across long distances quickly, yet now you and I talk on the cell phone to people across the world if we want instantly. You're basing your opinion that they would be out of reach only because you you can't think of a method that could get us there faster than simply moving through space time at a set velocity. We simply don't know if traveling at (c) in a set direction (which mass can't do but anyway) is the fastest way to get to a destination. At the moment, that's the fastest way we know to be possible, but this isn't valid when talking about theoretical possiblities.
Because of this your speculations are simply what they are - speculations. You simply can't speak of such a limit because you cant think of anything better than what we have now.
My position is that we don't know what technologies may be developed in the future and can't place limits on those technologies based on our current ignorance of what's possible right now. Because of that the most honest position is to say: "Yes, theoretically, there is no reason why knowledge, given sufficient time to develop, could not progress to know all there is to be known." I think it's ironic that you mentioned earlier that I don't have a good grasp of the size of the Universe, yet as I've explained here how it can be, it seems you're simply unable to grasp the amount of time it would take to do this, and thinking of such an incredibly long period of time and such extensive work coupled with the fact that we're ignorant of what kind of technology might still be possible, causes us to just simply jump to "nope, not possible".
I'm not stating I know everything. I'm just stating that it depends on the size of the universe as to know everything, you have to actually observe something and not make an assumption on what it might look like.Sunfyre7896
As I've explained above, it doesn't depend on that, that's only your speculation based on the technologies we currently have, which isn't a valid way to think about this.
If they don't take it well we will miss you. II am secretly a Atheist but my parents are muslim and i am planning to come out soon.
[deleted]
I never said I was better than you, I'm simply pointing out that just because you didn't care to educate yourself at age 9 doesn't mean: A) That education isn't beneficial (which it is) B) It isn't necessary C) Others wouldn't want to do it at that age You can not say that because you didn't want to educate yourself at that time then no one did, or should have. And again, saying being religiously educated at that age isn't needed is your opinion, and you keep trying to pass it off as fact. If you didn't want to learn about certain things at that age then fine, but stop trying to make it seem like anyone else who desired more knowledge than you did was automatically wasting their time. Some of us like learning, I know that's hard for you to believe.[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="Hatiko"]
1. Stop being a"I'm smarter than you soI'm better than youyoupr! ck"
2. Okay, here we go. Am I 9? No. When I was 9 did I need to know about the universe? No. Did I care? No.
Now? I'm not 9. I'm alot older and now I do care. You calling me ignorant. What you think your better than me because you know more? I never said education was bad. I said knowing things that are not needed isn't needed.
Hatiko
Thanks for repeating what nibroc420 already said but okay. I thought he took a jab at me so I took a jab at him and you came out of nowhere and punched me in the face and then I punched you both back and then we got into a discussion. And it is a fact that 9 year olds don't need to know these things.
So ya. And this: "yu shudnt edjucate yurself at a yung age becuz nobowdy cayres if yure edjucated moar than anyone eylse!".
I'm pretty sure you weren't implying anything but that I was some piece of dumb $#!#.
Dude calm down. You said you're a lot older than 9 now, so act like it. No one punched anyone, I just simply pointed out that there's nothing wrong with wanting to educate yourself at an early age. It is, in fact, a good thing. My quote with the bad grammar was poking fun at your stance that early education was bad, or wasteful, or not needed, not you as a person being dumb. The position you were holding, or are still holding, is not reasonable, and held for too long may lead to a situation where you say; reason with yourself that age 30 you don't need to educate yourself any further because your friends who are 30 (who may not be too bright themselves) are not any more educated than you are. This is a lazy way of thinking, and wont get you ahead in life. Try to not act like this is fight club in your next post, its a message board, relax.I lost faith in religion while in college. However, during that time my faith in Jesus Christ grew all the more. What do I mean? My faith in the rituals I participate in and my own efforts have dwindled. What has increased is my worship of God for his grace and mercy that has been established upon both me, a corrupted and corruptible human, and his church, an establishment made up of corrupted and corruptible humans.mindstorm
Beautiful, and nice sig. :)
I'm out of this now, these posts are becoming more and more like novels, stayed up to late to be reading this much, have fun and be respectful, peace out.
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