Whitesboro residents vote to keep controversial 'racist' village seal.

Whitesboro residents voted Monday night to keep the village's controversial seal, rather than replace it with a new image. Of 212 votes cast, 157 of them were in favor of retaining the current seal.

Whitesboro Mayor Patrick O'Connor said he wasn't entirely surprised by the vote results as numerous residents had been calling the village offices asking why the village was holding a vote in the first place.

The controversial village seal, which dates back to 1883, shows a white settler with his hands apparently choking a Native American man.

Source.

!?

It's a wrestling match between them.

Anyone who says anything different doesn't know the history behind it.

I also find this post was made to be misleading because right in the story it quotes it says it's a wrestling match, that was held out to make this post inflammatory.

Yup. More than that, it depicts not just a "white settler", it depicts the actual man whom the town is named after: Hugh White

You can read more about the history of the town and the origins of the seal here:

http://village.whitesboro.ny.us/content/History

Or, you can just default to the same knee-jerk SJW stuff too, whatever works I guess.

Pathetic. Who in the hell looks at that drawing and sees racism? The only controversy is by those who always look for a problem when a problem doesn't exist.

Guys, at best it is drown very badly. :shurgs:

No, at best is it's a simple misunderstanding. At worst it's intentionally being propped up as some racist seal by a bunch of people ignorant of the actual history and what it depicts, or who are intellectually dishonest and would rather be offended than to find out more and who also intentionally leaves out facts in order to make it seem more inflammatory (like leaving the bit about it's a wrestling match out of the OP).

If it's a wrestling match then it's a wrestling match. Nothing racist here.

Edit: But it's fugly anyways, I'd change it just to have something more aesthetically pleasing, like the arm wrestling or landscape seals in the source.

So can we have this misleading race bait article locked now?

While it may just be a wrestling match I can certainly see how someone who doesn't know that may think otherwise. Personally I'd want to change it to something more appealing and less open to misinterpretation.

White's not even chocking the Native American. His hands are clearly on the Oneida's shoulders. But people will see racism in everything. Instead of replacing everything to appease everyone, we should be doing more education and understanding.

Most rational post in the thread.

After looking at it, it does appear to be a wrestling match, but like you, I can certainly see why someone would think otherwise. But the thickheaded anti-SJW (such a stupid term) crusaders are never going to view the image outside of their own viewpoint.

Yes, rational to change something just because there's ignorant people out there. What would be rational is for people to learn more about things before they get outraged. There's no reason a town should have to change it's seal which has historical value because a bunch of people ignorantly and without knowledge misinterpret it.

That's not what Archangel argued.

He didn't say that they had to change it. He said he would personally change it to avoid misinterpretation. There's a difference.

He said he would. The only other thing he said was he can see how someone could be mistaken. What's rational about that? That people can be ignorant/mistaken and that he would also personally change it to avoid dumb people from having ignorant views regarding it?

The only thing rational that can be said about this situation is that people should try and learn more about things and not default to outrage especially when you have no clue to what the thing you are outraged over actually is and represents.

@Renevent42: You can't expect everybody to know everything about everything, that doesn't make people ignorant. I think a little consideration in how some things can be misinterpreted and trying to reduce that is a pretty rational thing to do.

No shit he said he would. I'm saying there's a difference between saying, "I would change the seal if it was me," and "They have to change the seal."

There are plenty of rational reasons to change a seal that people might be mistaken about. For instance, a town might get more visitors and thus more revenue more business by having a more appealing seal. I'd say it's less rational to get outraged that people are misinterpreting the image when it easy to see why people might be mistaken.

Not knowing something is the definition of ignorance. Everyone is ignorant about something...the difference is if you are going to call something racist and slam a town in the process it behooves you to actually know something about what you are accusing. If you don't, then that's malicious and willful ignorance...which is what is on display here.

@GreySeal9: Yeah I'm not saying that they HAVE to change it, I'm just saying that I personally would.

It's not outrageous that they are misinterpreting it, it's outrageous they are claiming it's racists and causing bad publicity for this town...all on the account of people's ignorance. Changing the seal would almost certainly have zero effect on visitors and tourism...what will have effect is the negative and ignorant headlines and claims of racism. There's no way to excuse the behavior here.

You are merely assuming that the ignorance is willful and malicious. Unless you have some proof of this, you should dispense with such a claim.

My point with the tourism example (and you actually don't know what effect it would have) is that entities change their symbols all the time to have more appeal or to prevent misunderstandings. They do this for a perfectly rational reason.

@Renevent42: Sure, technically everyone is ignorant but the way you phrased it sounded like a slam on people who don't know the history of the town. Expecting everyone to know and learn this isn't really feasible. Personally I have no problem taking those who may not be knowledgeable in something perspective into account and creating or changing something so it is less open to misinterpretation.

I agree. To be honest, I do understand why some people think that they may be surrendering to ignorance or SJWism (god I hate using that term), but that's more of an emotional response than a rational one.

The history behind it is clear, I've already posted the relevant information. That's besides the point, the people making the claim (it's racist) the onus is actually on them to provide proof. But none of them can, because the reality is it's not. So if someone still believed it was racist, the only way they could do so is either:

a) Simple ignorance...saw the image and without knowledge thought it was a racist seal

or

b) Did in fact know the history, but willfully ignored it and held on to the racist opinion anyways

Option B is def willful and malicious, and even option A is somewhat malicious. Claiming something is racist and by extension the town itself without actually informing yourself is malicious. Serious claims should require more than just knee-jerk reactions by people who are completely uninformed. This type of rush-to-judgement thinking can cause damage, and we can see the results on display with how the media is covering it.

It is a slam, because it's not that they simply misunderstood, it's that they misunderstood and leveled a serious and malicious claim against them...all out of ignorance. Ignorance such as this shouldn't be placated.

The bolded claim is not even remotely true. Malicious requires malicious intent. A knee jerk reaction made without knowledge is not malicious intent since the definition of malice is defined as "the intention to do evil." Let's not try to stretch the definition of the world malice to fit a narrative/agenda.

Option B could definitely be malicious, but you haven't proved that option B is what's actually happening.

From the source: The controversial village seal, which dates back to 1883, shows a white settler with his hands apparently choking a Native American man. Although village officials said the seal depicts a friendly wrestling match between Hugh White, the town's founder, and a member of the local Oneida tribe; it's caused controversy for years. Many called it racist and offensive.

Checking Wikipedia even backs up some of this.

Right, the people with the actual facts and history behind the situation are the ones with the emotional response, not the ones who are crying racism ignorantly. There's no way to sugar coat it...those are the people completely running on emotional response. No care for what it actually depicts, no care for the history behind, it looks racist and that's enough.

Even folks like you two, who understand it's not racist but would personally change it anyways is a emotional response. It's not based on the actual depiction or history, and is simply because people can misinterpret it ignorantly.

You're twisting what I said. If you can't calm down for a moment and make an effort to comprehend what I'm saying, it's gonna be hard to continue this conversation.

First of all, I agree that the people interpreting this as racist are being emotional. I never argued otherwise.

Secondly, it's possible for one have facts and history and still have an emotional response.

For instance, "This is a wrestling match, but I can see how someone might interpret it differently" is a more rational and level headed response than a bunch of ranting about SJWs or whatever, even if the person ranting about SJWs does know the facts and history of the situation.

It is true. If you claim someone/something is racist, which is a terrible accusation and can cause harm, without any knowledge then that is a malicious act. Same as if I would call you a pedophile without knowing anything about you other than your screen name. Anyone who publicly levels a serious and harmful accusation against someone/something without at least doing some level of due diligence/research is being malicious.

No, it's not true. Simply making a terrible accusation is not malice. Per its definition, malice requires that one "intends to do evil." It does not say anything about making damaging accusations out of ignorance. One has to actually intend to cause harm rather than simply making a knee jerk accusation without knowledge.

Again, let's not stretch definitions to fit a narrative/agenda. It's not necessary.

The definition of malice simply does not say anything about people not doing their research.

If someone mistakenly thinks someone is being racist because of an emotional knee jerk reaction, that is different from someone who actively intends to harm another person by falsely accusing them of racism.

Persona A is not being malicious, person B is being malicious. I'm curious as to why you cannot see the difference in intent.

For a race bait thread, I'm surprise it's not one of iloveatlus race threads lol.

There's no agenda, simply pointing out the ignorance and the harm that can be caused by it. Being the town in the news with the "racist seal" certainly isn't a positive thing for it. It's a shame that people who run on emotion and ignorance caused such a situation especially when the actual seal is something positive and uplifting.

And I'm sorry, I don't agree. If you make harmful and serious accusations wantonly and without knowledge I consider that a malicious act. The same if you accused a a person of pedophilia publicly without any actual knowledge of such acts. Reckless would probably be a better term, doesn't change much though.

When I use the term your agenda, I'm saying that you're twisting the definition of the word malicious to fit the argument you're making in this thread.

And it's easy to see why:

If the accusations of racism are out of malice, there can be no rational basis to change the seal since the accusers don't aren't genuinely misunderstanding. They are making a willful effort not to understand the seal(this, I would argue, is less likely than genuine misunderstanding).

If the accusations of racism are not out of malice (which is far more likely), it is clear that the seal causes misunderstanding (and if you'd put a little a distance between yourself and your anger about this issue, you'd likely see why) and thus it wouldn't be a horrible idea to change it. That doesn't mean that they have to change it or should change it. It just means that there can be a rational argument for changing it.

This is not a matter of disagreement or agreement. Malice has a clear definition. Unless you can prove that people are interpreting the seal as racist because they wish to harm the town, it is not malice.

And I don't see how you can argue that changing your description of the accusers to reckless doesn't change much. There is a huge gulf between recklessness and malice.

When I use the term your agenda, I'm saying that you're twisting the definition of the word malicious to fit the argument you're making in this thread.

And it's easy to see why:

If the accusations of racism are out of malice, there can be no rational basis to change the seal since the accusers don't aren't genuinely misunderstanding. They are making a willful effort not to understand the seal(this, I would argue, is less likely than genuine misunderstanding).

If the accusations of racism are not out of malice (which is far more likely), it is clear that the seal causes misunderstanding (and if you'd put a little a distance between yourself and your anger about this issue, you'd likely see why) and thus it wouldn't be a horrible idea to change it. That doesn't mean that they have to change it or should change it. It just means that there can be a rational argument for changing it.

This is not a matter of disagreement or agreement. Malice has a clear definition. Unless you can prove that people are interpreting the seal as racist because they wish to harm the town, it is not malice.

And I don't see how you can argue that changing your description of the accusers to reckless doesn't change much. There is a huge gulf between recklessness and malice.

If the claims are racism are out of ignorance, there's no rational claim to change the seal. That's literally saying unfounded and un-informed emotional responses are more important than facts. That's the bottom line. Accusing something/someone of racism (or any hurtful claim) out of ignorance or without knowledge is at best reckless, and at worst malicious. You want to mince words the end result is the same...un-informed people making harmful claims against another party unjustly and without care.

By the way, you can see it in action yourself browsing the comments on the news sites...even when other posted the relevant information of the seal people still called it racists. It's willful ignorance.

If that's something you feel like defending, as rational, and as worthy of consideration (ie personally changing the seal out of uninformed misinterpretation) so be it. That's really at the heart of the discussion. There's nothing rational about the knee-jerk and ignorant claims of racism, and the people who are making the claims (recklessly, maliciously, or ignorantly) do not deserve consideration. Educated, yes, it's a nice teaching moment for sure.

Anyways I personally would rather not see this type of ignorance placated, that's the bottom line for me.

Man you guys will argue about anything. Anyway it's an ugly seal but I don't have to see it.....I don't live there.

It's a great seal with a nice history to it as well. Good call on not changing it Whitesboro!

Well said.

Not as bad as the City of Pawnee's mural

Its obviously just good old fashioned homoeroticism. Two big strong men straining against one another. Forcing their unstoppable masculine will upon each other. Grunting and moaning as their muscles flex in a hot throbbing contest of manliness. We all love that shit, just look at the popularity of the wwe. This is literally the opposite of racism, it is a sweet delicate depiction of men coming together.

Best post here.

@drunk_pi: this is exactly why the 21st century is about to be mankind's greatest disaster. You guys care more about your perceptions and your emotions than the actual truth. If you can't face reality and the facts in a sitiation it is impossible to create a solution. If you base your responses on your feelings and not the actual event that has occurred you are just pissing in the wind. That's why all we have these days is people that move from one issue the outrage machine creates to the next issue the outrage machine creates without getting anyplace.

LOL that's hilarious and yeah first thing that came to mind was the South Park episode.

Good job on the South Park reference, was so ready to come in here and post it but already beaten, it's very appropriate for this story.

ROFLMAO !!!

The only thing missing is the Village People music in the background.

It looks like a white guy choking an Indian. Had I not known the history (or if there wasn't a backstory to this seal), I would have initially thought that was the case, especially given the history between Native Americans and European Americans and what's depicted on the flag. You have to be one ignorant dumbass to not know the tumultuous history between Native Americans and European Americans and why people would be outraged over this.

That said, now that I know it is a wrestling match, it makes sense. Perhaps they should change it to make it clearer but that's my opinion.

Seriously chill brah. You're getting outraged over people outraging over outrageous things.

@drunk_pi: I would not call it outrage. I would describe my attitude as stoic resignation mixed with contempt.