Why abortion should be legal everywhere.

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
LJS9502_basic

180093

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#201 LJS9502_basic  Online
Member since 2003 • 180093 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] That may be so but it was in response to your comment that no court would go there when they obviously had in the past.Vandalvideo
Pay attention to tense. I said would go there. It was a present/future tense. Unless the law drastically changes, and I mean a Consitutional ammendment, it isn't going to happen.

Would is conditional. You can't say would with authority. You can say hasn't presently.

Avatar image for Major_Commie
Major_Commie

186

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#202 Major_Commie
Member since 2009 • 186 Posts

[QUOTE="Major_Commie"] Well some countries having blasphemy laws, which can come down to opinion. But what does that have to do with anything? Many laws in the USA are based upon personal opinions. If you cant see that then you cant see a lot of things...LJS9502_basic

That seems rather vague. Personal opinion? Laws are generally not based on one persons views. Collective society...yes. However, that is not the same as your stance that opinions are legislated against. Again I ask when someone has been taken to court solely for an opinion. In the US one can dissent against government authority. An opinion is not illegal. Only actions.

No they arent based solely on one persons view. But personal view points can become legislated if many people share that view point, and that was blatantly obvious. You also have activist judges. Blasphemy laws in other countries can legislate against individual opinions. many countries dont have any freedom of speech either.
Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
LJS9502_basic

180093

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#203 LJS9502_basic  Online
Member since 2003 • 180093 Posts

No they arent based solely on one persons view. But personal view points can become legislated if many people share that view point, and that was blatantly obvious. You also have activist judges. Blasphemy laws in other countries can legislate against individual opinions. many countries dont have any freedom of speech either.Major_Commie
Yes you said all that before. But that wasn't what I asked you.

Avatar image for Vandalvideo
Vandalvideo

39655

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 16

User Lists: 0

#204 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
No fact does not inherently apply to law. 2 + 2 = 4 is a fact. You need to be specific is you are referring to legal fact.LJS9502_basic
Yes, fact does inherently apply to law as well. A fact is, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, a thing that is indisputably the case. It is indisputably the case that, in America, women do not have to provide a womb. The law is used as evidence to support that claim.
Avatar image for Vandalvideo
Vandalvideo

39655

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 16

User Lists: 0

#205 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
]Would is conditional. You can't say would with authority. You can say hasn't presently.LJS9502_basic
And, again, if you pay attention to the tense of the specific passage that you quoted from me, it is obvious that the tense is indeed present/future. Especially considering the "even if" clause.
Avatar image for mattbbpl
mattbbpl

23336

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#206 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23336 Posts
There's at least one big issue with this proposal as I see it. If a woman has an abortion, it is currently not seen as harming a third person (the fetus). However, if someone murders a pregnant woman it is legally classified as a double homicide (because the fetus counts as a human in this case). Either the fetus is a person or it isn't. The law needs to be consistent. If we determine that a fetus isn't a person during an abortion, it can't be determined to be a person during other scenarios.
Avatar image for Mr_Leonis
Mr_Leonis

4615

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#207 Mr_Leonis
Member since 2007 • 4615 Posts
....sigh always with this discussion. whatever just let the woman and her alone have the choice...if the guy has a choice who gives a ****. whatever done with this crap.
Avatar image for Major_Commie
Major_Commie

186

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#208 Major_Commie
Member since 2009 • 186 Posts
There's at least one big issue with this proposal as I see it. If a woman has an abortion, it is currently not seen as harming a third person (the fetus). However, if someone murders a pregnant woman it is legally classified as a double homicide (because the fetus counts as a human in this case). Either the fetus is a person or it isn't. The law needs to be consistent. If we determine that a fetus isn't a person during an abortion, it can't be determined to be a person during other scenarios.mattbbpl
Well, I do see the fetus as a human. While using libertarian self-ownership ethics it makes sense to say that another human has no right to your body without consenting to it
Avatar image for Squidney
Squidney

2377

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#209 Squidney
Member since 2004 • 2377 Posts

Pro-Choice and Pro-"pro-life human extinction movement!" lol Keep your religion to yourself!

Avatar image for Squidney
Squidney

2377

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#210 Squidney
Member since 2004 • 2377 Posts
[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]There's at least one big issue with this proposal as I see it. If a woman has an abortion, it is currently not seen as harming a third person (the fetus). However, if someone murders a pregnant woman it is legally classified as a double homicide (because the fetus counts as a human in this case). Either the fetus is a person or it isn't. The law needs to be consistent. If we determine that a fetus isn't a person during an abortion, it can't be determined to be a person during other scenarios.Major_Commie
Well, I do see the fetus as a human. While using libertarian self-ownership ethics it makes sense to say that another human has no right to your body without consenting to it

Exactly, the murderer has no ownership or obligations to the mother and fetus. HOWEVER, the mother BEARING the fetus does and it is her choice.
Avatar image for mattbbpl
mattbbpl

23336

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#211 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23336 Posts
[QUOTE="Major_Commie"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"]There's at least one big issue with this proposal as I see it. If a woman has an abortion, it is currently not seen as harming a third person (the fetus). However, if someone murders a pregnant woman it is legally classified as a double homicide (because the fetus counts as a human in this case). Either the fetus is a person or it isn't. The law needs to be consistent. If we determine that a fetus isn't a person during an abortion, it can't be determined to be a person during other scenarios.Squidney
Well, I do see the fetus as a human. While using libertarian self-ownership ethics it makes sense to say that another human has no right to your body without consenting to it

Exactly, the murderer has no ownership or obligations to the mother and fetus. HOWEVER, the mother BEARING the fetus does and it is her choice.

Applying ownership rights to another person is taking the ownership concept too far, IMO. I don't think one person should be able to own another.
Avatar image for Squidney
Squidney

2377

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#212 Squidney
Member since 2004 • 2377 Posts
[QUOTE="Squidney"][QUOTE="Major_Commie"] Well, I do see the fetus as a human. While using libertarian self-ownership ethics it makes sense to say that another human has no right to your body without consenting to itmattbbpl
Exactly, the murderer has no ownership or obligations to the mother and fetus. HOWEVER, the mother BEARING the fetus does and it is her choice.

Applying ownership rights to another person is taking the ownership concept too far, IMO. I don't think one person should be able to own another.

When its a fetus in your your body that will require about 20+ years of undivided attention, money and teaching I think you should.
Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#213 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

There's at least one big issue with this proposal as I see it. If a woman has an abortion, it is currently not seen as harming a third person (the fetus). However, if someone murders a pregnant woman it is legally classified as a double homicide (because the fetus counts as a human in this case). Either the fetus is a person or it isn't. The law needs to be consistent. If we determine that a fetus isn't a person during an abortion, it can't be determined to be a person during other scenarios.mattbbpl

This is really a simple issue, again explained by social contract contract. Damage upon society and third persons. If you kill a pregnant woman, you consider it double homicide because it damages the woman, and the already started process of your wish to have a family. You are punishing both the murder and repaying the already started process of starting a family. Otherwise, you would have a damage upon another one unpaid.

The proposal is consistent. It allows to repay on someone who has been damaged someone, yet, when an abortion is made, there is no "real" damage upon a third party.

Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#214 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts
To me, sex is an action. Actions have consequences. In short, if you're not ready to possibly experience the repercussions of an action, you aren't ready to commit the action itself. chrisrooR
You are talking outside of legal realms. You are talking about responsability, moral and ethics. That is outside legal realms (as you are talking), so is inconsequent....
Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#215 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

Before you say I didn't read your opening post, I did.

The somewhat vague social contract currently is non-disriminatory. Secondly, one party may not harm a another. It is irrelevant whether or not a third party is directly harmed in an action. One cannot kill a homeless fellow with no friends, even if it wouldn't harm society. Heck, there was a time when people of different races were considered unimportant to society. People conform to a social contract, to prevent parties from infringing upon one another. It essentially is the starting point of a social contract. That being said, the important question becomes about whether or not fetuses are recognized as persons under the social contract. My argument would be a resounding "YES!" However, that is another argument for another thread.

coolbeans90
q As you tell, preventing damage unto another party (that is third person, unless I am wrong) is the base of social contract. Being a.k.a.: either we stop this behavior or things would become chaotic/dangerous/abusive/agressive/self-destructive. Abortion, whether you consider it murder or not, whether you consider it a third party or not, would not create any more damage/chaos/aggresion than using a condom. You use the case of killing a bum/homeless it is a completely different case. If you allowed bumhunts, I guess bums would counteract and conflict would arise. However, with abortion such thing would never happen. The only possible thing is regret from parents, but law is not concerned about "I regret"
Avatar image for _Cadbury_
_Cadbury_

2936

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 0

#216 _Cadbury_
Member since 2006 • 2936 Posts
Im pro choice and honestly, I dont mind pro lifers if they keep it to themselves. But when they start forcing their views onto everyone else, or even abusing pro choicers or people who get abortions, I get really mad. You cant make decisions for other people. I for sure think it should be legal everywhere. You cant take that right away from people. Like others have said, women would, and do, resort to behind the scenes operations, putting their lives in danger. And if you wanted to be brutally honestly, without abortions we would see a mass increase in the population, abandoned kids, mis treated kids etc. It would be too much for the world to deal with.
Avatar image for coolbeans90
coolbeans90

21305

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#217 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Before you say I didn't read your opening post, I did.

The somewhat vague social contract currently is non-disriminatory. Secondly, one party may not harm a another. It is irrelevant whether or not a third party is directly harmed in an action. One cannot kill a homeless fellow with no friends, even if it wouldn't harm society. Heck, there was a time when people of different races were considered unimportant to society. People conform to a social contract, to prevent parties from infringing upon one another. It essentially is the starting point of a social contract. That being said, the important question becomes about whether or not fetuses are recognized as persons under the social contract. My argument would be a resounding "YES!" However, that is another argument for another thread.

curono

q As you tell, preventing damage unto another party (that is third person, unless I am wrong) is the base of social contract. Being a.k.a.: either we stop this behavior or things would become chaotic/dangerous/abusive/agressive/self-destructive. Abortion, whether you consider it murder or not, whether you consider it a third party or not, would not create any more damage/chaos/aggresion than using a condom. You use the case of killing a bum/homeless it is a completely different case. If you allowed bumhunts, I guess bums would counteract and conflict would arise. However, with abortion such thing would never happen. The only possible thing is regret from parents, but law is not concerned about "I regret"

The purpose of the social contract is what large groups of individuals gravitate towards to prevent one party from infringing on another. The third party is also taken into account, but if you do notice, laws seem to be very two party based. Society on a mass scale generally prefers a system where one party doesn't infringe on another. Otherwise as long as say the consequences of murder was restricted solely to two parties, it would be alright as long as one sticks to the prevention of harm to the third party. Theoretically, if society deemed bums as a burden to the societal third party, it would be benificial to eradicate them. Provided the non-bum populous was ok with removing all bums, it might be able to be done without much social unrest, as bums are an extreme minority. The case can be made very similarly to the abortion case, given the argument that you are using. Fact is, the social contract is not only concerned with third party effects. People collectively are willing to sacrifice some rights in order to gain security from a government to maintain social order, be it a preventing a single case of one party harming another, or the domino effect caused by such actions. Returning to abortion, would people murdering abortion practicioners count as a third party consequence? If you go solely by this argument to defend abortion, you might create a self-fulifilling problem of sorts.

Avatar image for wstfld
wstfld

6375

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#218 wstfld
Member since 2008 • 6375 Posts
I don't see what the problem is. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Why must rights be stripped?
Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#219 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

I don't see what the problem is. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Why must rights be stripped?wstfld

For some, that's the same as saying "If you don't believe in murder, then don't murder. Why must rights be stripped?" or "If you don't believe in rape, don't rape. Why must rights be stripped?"

Avatar image for smc91352
smc91352

7786

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#220 smc91352
Member since 2009 • 7786 Posts

[QUOTE="wstfld"]I don't see what the problem is. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Why must rights be stripped?MagicMan4597

For some, that's the same as saying "If you don't believe in murder, then don't murder. Why must rights be stripped?" or "If you don't believe in rape, don't rape. Why must rights be stripped?"

people made those compromise 'cause they didn't wanna get killed or raped. I think there's a difference.
Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#221 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

[QUOTE="wstfld"]I don't see what the problem is. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Why must rights be stripped?smc91352

For some, that's the same as saying "If you don't believe in murder, then don't murder. Why must rights be stripped?" or "If you don't believe in rape, don't rape. Why must rights be stripped?"

people made those compromise 'cause they didn't wanna get killed or raped. I think there's a difference.

Murder is murder, and in the eyes of many, abortion is murder. If you were still a fetus in your mother's womb, I'm pretty sure you would have some objection to getting terminated before you were even born even if you couldn't possibly voice your concern.

Avatar image for smc91352
smc91352

7786

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#222 smc91352
Member since 2009 • 7786 Posts
[QUOTE="smc91352"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]For some, that's the same as saying "If you don't believe in murder, then don't murder. Why must rights be stripped?" or "If you don't believe in rape, don't rape. Why must rights be stripped?"MagicMan4597
people made those compromise 'cause they didn't wanna get killed or raped. I think there's a difference.

Murder is murder, and in the eyes of many, abortion is murder. If you were still a fetus in your mother's womb, I'm pretty sure you would have some objection to getting terminated before you were even born even if you couldn't possibly voice your concern.

:lol: You don't know me at all... But I was just saying that there's a difference 'cause people agree not to kill each other 'cause it affects themselves...
Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#223 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"][QUOTE="smc91352"]people made those compromise 'cause they didn't wanna get killed or raped. I think there's a difference.smc91352
Murder is murder, and in the eyes of many, abortion is murder. If you were still a fetus in your mother's womb, I'm pretty sure you would have some objection to getting terminated before you were even born even if you couldn't possibly voice your concern.

:lol: You don't know me at all... But I was just saying that there's a difference 'cause people agree not to kill each other 'cause it affects themselves...

So I can't speak for most people when I say that most people wouldn't like to be aborted while in the womb? I don't know about you, but I like to live.

So you're saying that if my neighbor A wants to go out and kill my neighbor B, I'll be alright with that as long as I'm not affected? I think there's more of a moral component connected to the issue.

My belief on the issue is the old saying "Your rights end where another's begin" and if the fetus is considered a person, abortion is infringing on a person's rights.

Avatar image for smc91352
smc91352

7786

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#224 smc91352
Member since 2009 • 7786 Posts
MagicMan4597
I wasn't saying anything but that there's a difference between killing/raping people and abortion 'cause it affects us. I just didn't like that you used that comparison. I'm not trying to say anything else.
Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#225 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="wstfld"]I don't see what the problem is. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Why must rights be stripped?MagicMan4597

For some, that's the same as saying "If you don't believe in murder, then don't murder. Why must rights be stripped?" or "If you don't believe in rape, don't rape. Why must rights be stripped?"

Because if you allowed rape, people could rape no matter what and you could have many problems. People who is raped becomes troubled, people who care about the person raped will most likely want some "retribution", starting thus a problem. However, with abortion there is no "ignition" of a problem. You tell me this. And try not to think about the baby aborted If a girl has an abortion who else would have a problem with that? Who would get damaged from the abortion? Like in the scenario of rape you presented? Who would want to get a "retribution" if it was a wanted/consented abortion???
Avatar image for deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

57548

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 19

User Lists: 0

#226 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

The argument of whether or not abortion hurts a third party really depends on your definition of when human life begins. I don't think anyone really has an answer for that.

Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
LJS9502_basic

180093

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#227 LJS9502_basic  Online
Member since 2003 • 180093 Posts

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="Squidney"] Exactly, the murderer has no ownership or obligations to the mother and fetus. HOWEVER, the mother BEARING the fetus does and it is her choice. Squidney
Applying ownership rights to another person is taking the ownership concept too far, IMO. I don't think one person should be able to own another.

When its a fetus in your your body that will require about 20+ years of undivided attention, money and teaching I think you should.

It's generally 18 years and that would put children in that same category.:?

Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#228 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

[QUOTE="wstfld"]I don't see what the problem is. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Why must rights be stripped?curono

For some, that's the same as saying "If you don't believe in murder, then don't murder. Why must rights be stripped?" or "If you don't believe in rape, don't rape. Why must rights be stripped?"

Because if you allowed rape, people could rape no matter what and you could have many problems. People who is raped becomes troubled, people who care about the person raped will most likely want some "retribution", starting thus a problem. However, with abortion there is no "ignition" of a problem. You tell me this. And try not to think about the baby aborted If a girl has an abortion who else would have a problem with that? Who would get damaged from the abortion? Like in the scenario of rape you presented? Who would want to get a "retribution" if it was a wanted/consented abortion???

Well if you consider the fetus a human, the fetus would be damaged in the event of an abortion. There's your third party.

Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#229 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

For some, that's the same as saying "If you don't believe in murder, then don't murder. Why must rights be stripped?" or "If you don't believe in rape, don't rape. Why must rights be stripped?"

MagicMan4597

Because if you allowed rape, people could rape no matter what and you could have many problems. People who is raped becomes troubled, people who care about the person raped will most likely want some "retribution", starting thus a problem. However, with abortion there is no "ignition" of a problem. You tell me this. And try not to think about the baby aborted If a girl has an abortion who else would have a problem with that? Who would get damaged from the abortion? Like in the scenario of rape you presented? Who would want to get a "retribution" if it was a wanted/consented abortion???

Well if you consider the fetus a human, the fetus would be damaged in the event of an abortion. There's your third party.

You cant read and you are too blinded with your own answers. BESIDES THE BABY who else is damaged? Who else has a problem with it? Who else could ask for retribution?
Avatar image for tocklestein2005
tocklestein2005

5532

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#230 tocklestein2005
Member since 2008 • 5532 Posts

It should be legal just for rape victims or critical health risks...but any way you look at it, abortion is terrible.

Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
LJS9502_basic

180093

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#231 LJS9502_basic  Online
Member since 2003 • 180093 Posts
[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

[QUOTE="curono"] Because if you allowed rape, people could rape no matter what and you could have many problems. People who is raped becomes troubled, people who care about the person raped will most likely want some "retribution", starting thus a problem. However, with abortion there is no "ignition" of a problem. You tell me this. And try not to think about the baby aborted If a girl has an abortion who else would have a problem with that? Who would get damaged from the abortion? Like in the scenario of rape you presented? Who would want to get a "retribution" if it was a wanted/consented abortion???curono

Well if you consider the fetus a human, the fetus would be damaged in the event of an abortion. There's your third party.

You cant read and you are too blinded with your own answers. BESIDES THE BABY who else is damaged? Who else has a problem with it? Who else could ask for retribution?

The father?
Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#232 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

It should be legal just for rape victims or critical health risks...but any way you look at it, abortion is terrible.

tocklestein2005
Difference is if you rape, people who knew the victim (+victim) will most likely get upset. However, no one really gets upset for someone who has an abortion. It is a process which people do on own will. Besides, you could not tell if a woman has made an abortion unless she told you. As for murder, when you kill a member of the group (town, state or social group), you start a riot/problem. That is a huge difference.
Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#233 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

[QUOTE="curono"] Because if you allowed rape, people could rape no matter what and you could have many problems. People who is raped becomes troubled, people who care about the person raped will most likely want some "retribution", starting thus a problem. However, with abortion there is no "ignition" of a problem. You tell me this. And try not to think about the baby aborted If a girl has an abortion who else would have a problem with that? Who would get damaged from the abortion? Like in the scenario of rape you presented? Who would want to get a "retribution" if it was a wanted/consented abortion???curono

Well if you consider the fetus a human, the fetus would be damaged in the event of an abortion. There's your third party.

You cant read and you are too blinded with your own answers. BESIDES THE BABY who else is damaged? Who else has a problem with it? Who else could ask for retribution?

You don't make sense. Your answer is the baby but you refuse to hear it. Your question is similar to "If someone kills a drifter, BESIDES THE DRIFTER who else has been damaged?" Is it okay to kill someone who has really no connection to society?

Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#234 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

Well if you consider the fetus a human, the fetus would be damaged in the event of an abortion. There's your third party.

LJS9502_basic

You cant read and you are too blinded with your own answers. BESIDES THE BABY who else is damaged? Who else has a problem with it? Who else could ask for retribution?

The father?

Abortions when are made normally have the consent of both parents, or at least the mother, highest authority when regarding to child raising/procreation. ;)

Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#235 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

Well if you consider the fetus a human, the fetus would be damaged in the event of an abortion. There's your third party.

MagicMan4597

You cant read and you are too blinded with your own answers. BESIDES THE BABY who else is damaged? Who else has a problem with it? Who else could ask for retribution?

You don't make sense. Your answer is the baby but you refuse to hear it. Your question is similar to "If someone kills a drifter, BESIDES THE DRIFTER who else has been damaged?" Is it okay to kill someone who has really no connection to society?

If I kill a drifter, anyone who knew the drifter or anyone who had relationship with it.
Avatar image for deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

57548

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 19

User Lists: 0

#236 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts
[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

You cant read and you are too blinded with your own answers. BESIDES THE BABY who else is damaged? Who else has a problem with it? Who else could ask for retribution?curono

You don't make sense. Your answer is the baby but you refuse to hear it. Your question is similar to "If someone kills a drifter, BESIDES THE DRIFTER who else has been damaged?" Is it okay to kill someone who has really no connection to society?

If I kill a drifter, anyone who knew the drifter or anyone who had relationship with it.

What if no one did?
Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#237 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

You don't make sense. Your answer is the baby but you refuse to hear it. Your question is similar to "If someone kills a drifter, BESIDES THE DRIFTER who else has been damaged?" Is it okay to kill someone who has really no connection to society?

sonicare

If I kill a drifter, anyone who knew the drifter or anyone who had relationship with it.

What if no one did?

You cant rule with a single case the whole legal system. If you allowed murder, just because no one cared about it, things would become a chaos and shootings would be common (NOT GOOD). With abortion is different, if every girl who wanted abortion made it, there would be no real problem, au contraire of murders.

Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#238 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="curono"] If I kill a drifter, anyone who knew the drifter or anyone who had relationship with it.curono

What if no one did?

You cant rule with a single case the whole legal system. If you allowed murder, just because no one cared about it, things would become a chaos and shootings would be common (NOT GOOD). With abortion is different, if every girl who wanted abortion made it, there would be no real problem, au contraire of murders.

Well, no real problem except for the possible human lives of fetuses that you refuse to talk about. So judging by your view of the legal system, if I find someone who has no connection to society at all, no living family, friends, or acquaintances, I can kill that person?

Avatar image for Hewkii
Hewkii

26339

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#239 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts

So judging by your view of the legal system, if I find someone who has no connection to society at all, no living family, friends, or acquaintances, I can kill that person?

MagicMan4597
you could never prove you did, therefore go hog wild.
Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#240 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"]What if no one did?MagicMan4597

You cant rule with a single case the whole legal system. If you allowed murder, just because no one cared about it, things would become a chaos and shootings would be common (NOT GOOD). With abortion is different, if every girl who wanted abortion made it, there would be no real problem, au contraire of murders.

Well, no real problem except for the possible human lives of fetuses that you refuse to talk about. So judging by your view of the legal system, if I find someone who has no connection to society at all, no living family, friends, or acquaintances, I can kill that person?

Read my post. As long as no one notices or it is outside any social contract which bans murder, go ahead.
Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#241 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

[QUOTE="curono"] You cant rule with a single case the whole legal system. If you allowed murder, just because no one cared about it, things would become a chaos and shootings would be common (NOT GOOD). With abortion is different, if every girl who wanted abortion made it, there would be no real problem, au contraire of murders.

curono

Well, no real problem except for the possible human lives of fetuses that you refuse to talk about. So judging by your view of the legal system, if I find someone who has no connection to society at all, no living family, friends, or acquaintances, I can kill that person?

Read my post. As long as no one notices or it is outside any social contract which bans murder, go ahead.

I just hope you see the flaw in that logic. That is not how the world is run. It's a slippery slope, my friend.

Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#242 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

Well, no real problem except for the possible human lives of fetuses that you refuse to talk about. So judging by your view of the legal system, if I find someone who has no connection to society at all, no living family, friends, or acquaintances, I can kill that person?

MagicMan4597

Read my post. As long as no one notices or it is outside any social contract which bans murder, go ahead.

I just hope you see the flaw in that logic. That is not how the world is run. It's a slippery slope, my friend.

But better than "I dont like how are you so I BAN it".
Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#243 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

[QUOTE="curono"] Read my post. As long as no one notices or it is outside any social contract which bans murder, go ahead.curono

I just hope you see the flaw in that logic. That is not how the world is run. It's a slippery slope, my friend.

But better than "I dont like how are you so I BAN it".

No. My logic is, your rights are limitless as long as you do not affect the rights of another or a third party. Since I consider a fetus a human, abortion infringes on another person's rights, in this case the right to life.

Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#244 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

I just hope you see the flaw in that logic. That is not how the world is run. It's a slippery slope, my friend.

MagicMan4597

But better than "I dont like how are you so I BAN it".

No. My logic is, your rights are limitless as long as you do not affect the rights of another or a third party. Since I consider a fetus a human, abortion infringes on another person's rights, in this case the right to life.

Maybe, but rights can be shut in special occasions, as long as it does not make the pack of wolves bite each other (create a scalating social conflict). For example jail, kill in self defense or censorship. You can cut rights if you find it fit and if it helps your society. Abortions help in a huge way, and the only drawback is the "victim's right to live". However, since it has hardly consciousness or will, still isnt part of your society and there is people willing to "kill it" and no other one involved is against it, HECK DO IT!
Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#245 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

[QUOTE="curono"] But better than "I dont like how are you so I BAN it".curono

No. My logic is, your rights are limitless as long as you do not affect the rights of another or a third party. Since I consider a fetus a human, abortion infringes on another person's rights, in this case the right to life.

Maybe, but rights can be shut in special occasions, as long as it does not make the pack of wolves bite each other (create a scalating social conflict). For example jail, kill in self defense or censorship. You can cut rights if you find it fit and if it helps your society. Abortions help in a huge way, and the only drawback is the "victim's right to live". However, since it has hardly consciousness or will, still isnt part of your society and there is people willing to "kill it" and no other one involved is against it, HECK DO IT!

So why stop there? If it "helps society", why not kill off the homeless or people deemed too inefficient for society? If everyone is willing to kill all of the mentally challenged people in society, why not do it?

Avatar image for curono
curono

7722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 21

User Lists: 0

#246 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

No. My logic is, your rights are limitless as long as you do not affect the rights of another or a third party. Since I consider a fetus a human, abortion infringes on another person's rights, in this case the right to life.

MagicMan4597

Maybe, but rights can be shut in special occasions, as long as it does not make the pack of wolves bite each other (create a scalating social conflict). For example jail, kill in self defense or censorship. You can cut rights if you find it fit and if it helps your society. Abortions help in a huge way, and the only drawback is the "victim's right to live". However, since it has hardly consciousness or will, still isnt part of your society and there is people willing to "kill it" and no other one involved is against it, HECK DO IT!

So why stop there? If it "helps society", why not kill off the homeless or people deemed too inefficient for society? If everyone is willing to kill all of the mentally challenged people in society, why not do it?

Because they already form part of the society, in some scale or in the lowest levels, but are par of the society, my friend :wink: and that makes a huge difference.
Avatar image for MagicMan4597
MagicMan4597

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#247 MagicMan4597
Member since 2007 • 413 Posts

[QUOTE="MagicMan4597"]

[QUOTE="curono"] Maybe, but rights can be shut in special occasions, as long as it does not make the pack of wolves bite each other (create a scalating social conflict). For example jail, kill in self defense or censorship. You can cut rights if you find it fit and if it helps your society. Abortions help in a huge way, and the only drawback is the "victim's right to live". However, since it has hardly consciousness or will, still isnt part of your society and there is people willing to "kill it" and no other one involved is against it, HECK DO IT!curono

So why stop there? If it "helps society", why not kill off the homeless or people deemed too inefficient for society? If everyone is willing to kill all of the mentally challenged people in society, why not do it?

Because they already form part of the society, in some scale or in the lowest levels, but are par of the society, my friend :wink: and that makes a huge difference.

Well, I think we've hit the point where we have found our main disagreement and neither side can do anything to persuade the other. I'll leave this open for another poster.

Avatar image for Gnomefan
Gnomefan

1048

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#248 Gnomefan
Member since 2009 • 1048 Posts

Day 22: heart begins to beat with the child's own blood, often a different type than the mothers'. Week 3: By the end of third week the child's backbone spinal column and nervous system are forming. The liver, kidneys and intestines begin to take shape. Week 4: By the end of week four the child is ten thousand times larger than the fertilized egg. Week 5: Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop. Week 6: Brain waves are detectable; mouth and lips are present; fingernails are forming. Week 7: Eyelids, and toes form, nose distinct. The baby is kicking and swimming. Week 8: Every organ is in place, bones begin to replace cartilage, and fingerprints begin to form. By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear.

I would say that it affects another human being...

Also, if a pregnant women is murdered the murderer will be charged with a double homicide..which means the law acknowledges that the unborn child is in fact a human being..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

heehehehehehhahahah lol. i thought you said its brain waves are delectable.

Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
LJS9502_basic

180093

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#249 LJS9502_basic  Online
Member since 2003 • 180093 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="curono"] You cant read and you are too blinded with your own answers. BESIDES THE BABY who else is damaged? Who else has a problem with it? Who else could ask for retribution?curono

The father?

Abortions when are made normally have the consent of both parents, or at least the mother, highest authority when regarding to child raising/procreation. ;)

No. Only the consent of the mother. Her body....not the fathers.;)