Why are so many Americans this close-minded?

[QUOTE="Ryir554"]

actually, America was found on the principle of equality, so Socialism is more American then Capatalism which says that we should all compete to become richer and therefore "better" then one another.

BTW I am American and am a registered Socialist. But thats what I love about America, we can all have different views and its okay.

Free_Marxet

America was founded on individual liberty, but it's not mutually exclusive with socialism. Europe is far closer to socialism than the U.S. and Europeans enjoy more freedoms than Americans. Remember, the Puritans were staunchly against freedom of religion, yet the Founders took an opposite root. I will admit that our country is based on individualism, but there is still supposed to be a government to regulate the doings of its citizens, as evident in the Federalist Papers, the Constitution, and the Declaration, obviously.

Because in ww2 we fought and defeated socialism.

JustusCF

Dear god...

lol one of the sponsored links at the bottom of my page is entitled "My Son The Socialist" Anyway, the TC sounds pretty close-minded against capitalism.WarEagle1357

Haha, have you ignored everything I've posted so far?

[QUOTE="Wikipedian"]But then Capitalism fails for those who are in situations where they simply cannot make money. Think about poor immigrant families of ten people. There is no way to educate the children, no way to get a college degree without falling financially. The cycle continuesLindsosaurus

Socialism is very compatible with capitalism, just look at Europe. It's called regulated markets, and its more commonsensical than anything I've seen the U.S. do in its history (apart from the New Deal and the Great Society, which were both brilliant).

Dear god...

Trinners

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

Dear god...

fidosim

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

[QUOTE="fidosim"]

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

Dear god...

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

[QUOTE="Lindsosaurus"]

[QUOTE="Wikipedian"]But then Capitalism fails for those who are in situations where they simply cannot make money. Think about poor immigrant families of ten people. There is no way to educate the children, no way to get a college degree without falling financially. The cycle continuesHot-Tamale

Socialism is very compatible with capitalism, just look at Europe. It's called regulated markets, and its more commonsensical than anything I've seen the U.S. do in its history (apart from the New Deal and the Great Society, which were both brilliant).

Actually, many people argue that the New Deal was a complete failure and not responsible for the recovery, but that is a different debate...look that's fine if people want some socialistic policies, we already have many...but in my opinion if we take it too far we will regret it.

[QUOTE="WarEagle1357"]lol one of the sponsored links at the bottom of my page is entitled "My Son The Socialist" Anyway, the TC sounds pretty close-minded against capitalism.bballm10

Haha, have you ignored everything I've posted so far?

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Well...he's right. *shrug*

fidosim

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

Too bad the party nowhere near represents socialism at all.

Because in ww2 we fought and defeated socialism, to embrace it is ridiculous to a powerful country such as ours. we already do embrace small forms of a socialism anyway.

Free_Marxet

America was founded upon individual rights and lockean principles. Not socialism, not equality.Free_Marxet

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Well...he's right. *shrug*

fidosim

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

The Nazis were at the far side of the spectrum, but remember - they targeted liberals, communists, gays, and Jews.

Look at Europe. They have made it work quite well.

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="Trinners"]

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

Too bad the party nowhere near represents socialism at all.

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Well...he's right. *shrug*

fidosim

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

Nazi Germany was a fascist country under many names. . .including Catholic, Aryan, Socialist, Capitalist, and so on and so forth.

The Nazis were as far from socialist as you get.

[QUOTE="bballm10"]

[QUOTE="WarEagle1357"]lol one of the sponsored links at the bottom of my page is entitled "My Son The Socialist" Anyway, the TC sounds pretty close-minded against capitalism.WarEagle1357

Haha, have you ignored everything I've posted so far?

Well I edited the first post, so you can go recheck that since I tried to make it clearer what my view is.

merica was founded on the ideal for the best form of government for the people. Hence why the Constitution can be ratified and why the government can be changed as it is needed. America was founded on the principles of Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, Luther, and many, many others; it was not founded on the philosophies of a single man. As for whether or not it was founded on individual rights, that's highly debatable--and it's arguable that a society that is equal produces greater individuality, as a society is a bunch of individuals.

Theokhoth

I'm not arguing but I'm just genuinely curious about this. Could you explain further or provide a link?

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] The National Socialist German Workers Party.fidosim

Too bad the party nowhere near represents socialism at all.

They also stood for being strongly opposed to democracy, communism and capitalism and was basically a party for elitist parasites. Are they still socialist? :roll:

And every state has some control over their economy.

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="Trinners"]

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

The Nazis were at the far side of the spectrum, but remember - they targeted liberals, communists, gays, and Jews.

Look at Europe. They have made it work quite well.

[QUOTE="WarEagle1357"][QUOTE="bballm10"]

Haha, have you ignored everything I've posted so far?

bballm10

Well I edited the first post, so you can go recheck that since I tried to make it clearer what my view is.

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="Trinners"]

Too bad the party nowhere near represents socialism at all.

They also stood for being strongly opposed to democracy, communism and capitalism and was basically a party for elitist parasites. Are they still socialist? :roll:

And every state has some control over their economy.

[QUOTE="Free_Marxet"] Because in ww2 we fought and defeated socialism, to embrace it is ridiculous to a powerful country such as ours. we already do embrace small forms of a socialism anyway.

Theokhoth

America was founded upon individual rights and lockean principles. Not socialism, not equality.Free_Marxet

True, but if you have taken a psychology class (perhaps you have) you would realize that socialization between humans and community participation are among the healthiest things one can do for themselves. Individualism, since it often corresponds to physical isolation and cynicism, is inherently unhealthy for humanity, according to many prominent psychologists.

I find it really foolish for you to call american close-minded about something that the forefathers of our country fought for. Whether you label me close-minded or not for stating that, I don't care but it's not what our forefathers wanted from the beginning and the system they used made us one of the greatest countires on earth. Socialism has it's pros but it's not what our country was founded on and I for one wanted to stay that way.moose_knuckler

Past ideals have no relevance in today's society if they become obsolete. A country either adapts to the change of an era or it will fail.

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="Trinners"]

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

Trinners

Too bad the party nowhere near represents socialism at all.

socialism and facism both share the same basic welfare system. Which is exactly what I meant by the post, that's how he garnered such popularity and power. What hitler did in the beginning was very socialistic.

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Well...he's right. *shrug*

fidosim

so socialism = fascism now? Lmao!

Economically, Hitler was well to the right of Stalin. once in power, the Nazis achieved rearmament through deficit spending. Under the Reich, corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts. Hardly a socialist agenda. The name "socialist" in their party name means nothing. That goes with MANY political parties that have political titles in their names.

[QUOTE="Lindsosaurus"]

[QUOTE="Wikipedian"]But then Capitalism fails for those who are in situations where they simply cannot make money. Think about poor immigrant families of ten people. There is no way to educate the children, no way to get a college degree without falling financially. The cycle continuesHot-Tamale

Socialism is very compatible with capitalism, just look at Europe. It's called regulated markets, and its more commonsensical than anything I've seen the U.S. do in its history (apart from the New Deal and the Great Society, which were both brilliant).

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

How anyone can call that complete and utter catastrophe brilliant is absolutely mind-boggling.

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Sure it does. State control of the economy.fidosim

They also stood for being strongly opposed to democracy, communism and capitalism and was basically a party for elitist parasites. Are they still socialist? :roll:

And every state has some control over their economy.

Yes, they were politically identical, because they were both Fascists. Stalin's Communism doesn't match up with anything in the Communist Manifesto or anything else Communist--which is why I think Communism is inherently flawed, because it can't be practically translated without invoking fascism at some point. Hitler was a Fascist; Stalin was a Fascist.

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] The National Socialist German Workers Party.fidosim

The Nazis were at the far side of the spectrum, but remember - they targeted liberals, communists, gays, and Jews.

Look at Europe. They have made it work quite well.

I agree with you that the Nazis were Socialists, but I'm talking about modern Western Europe and Scandinavia. Conservatives and Libertarians tend to call some of Obama's policies 'socialist,' which we both know is far from the truth.

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

[QUOTE="Lindsosaurus"] I'm sorry, but socialism is not the answer to those problems and it's not like they can't be improved in a capitalist society.

DucksBrains

Socialism is very compatible with capitalism, just look at Europe. It's called regulated markets, and its more commonsensical than anything I've seen the U.S. do in its history (apart from the New Deal and the Great Society, which were both brilliant).

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

How anyone can call that complete and utter catastrophe brilliant is absolutely mind-boggling.

FDRs own treasury secretary said the new deal did nothing for the GD.

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Sure it does. State control of the economy.fidosim

They also stood for being strongly opposed to democracy, communism and capitalism and was basically a party for elitist parasites. Are they still socialist? :roll:

And every state has some control over their economy.

No they are not. The Nazi party stood against the ideals of socialism the moment they became extreme right-wing elitist racists. They were not socialists they were fascists.

Political spectrum

Anarchy-Communism-Socialism-Liberalism-Moderate-Conservatism-Fascism-Divine Right (where the state/leader is basically viewed as god)

True, but if you have taken a psychology class (perhaps you have) you would realize that socialization between humans and community participation are among the healthiest things one can do for themselves. Individualism, since it often corresponds to physical isolation and cynicism, is inherently unhealthy for humanity, according to many prominent psychologists.

Hot-Tamale

To a certain point, but it is also inherintly unhealthy to be enmeshed with your community and have no sense of individualism...It is more about a balance than anything else

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Free_Marxet"] We didn't fight socialism in WWII; we fought tyranny and Fascism. [QUOTE="Free_Marxet"] America was founded upon individual rights and lockean principles. Not socialism, not equality.Hot-Tamale

True, but if you have taken a psychology class (perhaps you have) you would realize that socialization between humans and community participation are among the healthiest things one can do for themselves. Individualism, since it often corresponds to physical isolation and cynicism, is inherently unhealthy for humanity, according to many prominent psychologists.

That's essentially what I just said. >.>

I was a hardcore individualist until recently. I realised that every meaningful human ideal, moral, philosophy, and political system is rooted in the collective, including individualism. Everything people come up with to better the world--whether they succeed, fail, or never try--is based on what is best for society and humanity as a whole.

[QUOTE="moose_knuckler"]I find it really foolish for you to call american close-minded about something that the forefathers of our country fought for. Whether you label me close-minded or not for stating that, I don't care but it's not what our forefathers wanted from the beginning and the system they used made us one of the greatest countires on earth. Socialism has it's pros but it's not what our country was founded on and I for one wanted to stay that way.Trinners

Past ideals have no relevance in today's society if they become obsolete. A country either adapts to the change of an era or it will fail.

Because it became apart of our culture...

Anyways.. I'm an American and I'm a 100% democratic socialist.. just like my hero George Orwell. Though many people don't know that about him.

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

True, but if you have taken a psychology class (perhaps you have) you would realize that socialization between humans and community participation are among the healthiest things one can do for themselves. Individualism, since it often corresponds to physical isolation and cynicism, is inherently unhealthy for humanity, according to many prominent psychologists.

Lindsosaurus

To a certain point, but it is also inherintly unhealthy to be enmeshed with your community and have no sense of individualism...It is more about a balance than anything else

Could you do something for me? Think of ten words that describe yourself, and post the first words you come up with. It's an experiment we did in my school, and yes, it is relevant.

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

True, but if you have taken a psychology class (perhaps you have) you would realize that socialization between humans and community participation are among the healthiest things one can do for themselves. Individualism, since it often corresponds to physical isolation and cynicism, is inherently unhealthy for humanity, according to many prominent psychologists.

Lindsosaurus

To a certain point, but it is also inherintly unhealthy to be enmeshed with your community and have no sense of individualism...It is more about a balance than anything else

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="Trinners"]

They also stood for being strongly opposed to democracy, communism and capitalism and was basically a party for elitist parasites. Are they still socialist? :roll:

And every state has some control over their economy.

No they are not. The Nazi party stood against the ideals of socialism the moment they became extreme right-wing elitist racists. They were not socialists they were fascists.

Political spectrum

Anarchy-Communism-Socialism-Liberalism-Moderate-Conservatism-Fascism-Divine Right (where the state/leader is basically viewed as god)

Could you do something for me? Think of ten words that describe yourself, and post the first words you come up with. It's an experiment we did in my school, and yes, it is relevant.

Theokhoth

I get what you are going for..whatever I say will be relevant because of its relation to other people. I am in my 3rd year working on my doctorate in psychology, I'm not saying that a sense of community isn't important, but rather that it is a balance...people need a sense of self and it can be just as detrimental to a person's mental health if they do not have some sense of themselves as an individual. and my first word is determined.

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="moose_knuckler"]I find it really foolish for you to call american close-minded about something that the forefathers of our country fought for. Whether you label me close-minded or not for stating that, I don't care but it's not what our forefathers wanted from the beginning and the system they used made us one of the greatest countires on earth. Socialism has it's pros but it's not what our country was founded on and I for one wanted to stay that way.moose_knuckler

Past ideals have no relevance in today's society if they become obsolete. A country either adapts to the change of an era or it will fail.

Socialist principles have been introduced to the USA ever since it's creation to evolve with the times. Public education, postal service, welfare, police/fire stations and now universal healthcare. See the pattern?

Due to technology, global village and the globalization of the market's are now in effect. Increasing population is also now a major issure than ever before. The ideals that the US founded does not work well in today's world especially during an economic crisis.

Socialist solutions are needed for today's economic crisis just like it was needed during FDR's depression. Letting the corporations fall is not a feasible idea in today's world even though it was perfectly fine 200 years ago.

Times change.

[QUOTE="Lindsosaurus"]

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

True, but if you have taken a psychology class (perhaps you have) you would realize that socialization between humans and community participation are among the healthiest things one can do for themselves. Individualism, since it often corresponds to physical isolation and cynicism, is inherently unhealthy for humanity, according to many prominent psychologists.

EMOEVOLUTION

To a certain point, but it is also inherintly unhealthy to be enmeshed with your community and have no sense of individualism...It is more about a balance than anything else

I get that people take it to an extreme which is why I said it is about a balance

[QUOTE="Lindsosaurus"]

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

True, but if you have taken a psychology class (perhaps you have) you would realize that socialization between humans and community participation are among the healthiest things one can do for themselves. Individualism, since it often corresponds to physical isolation and cynicism, is inherently unhealthy for humanity, according to many prominent psychologists.

EMOEVOLUTION

To a certain point, but it is also inherintly unhealthy to be enmeshed with your community and have no sense of individualism...It is more about a balance than anything else

Wrong. We are a very generous nation, to everyone and all. Some of us don't believe the government should take our money and give it to those who choose not to work, there is a lot of corruption and fraud in the welfare system, I think without all of these slobs and with donations alone, we could achieve a system where people who are legitimately unable to work will receive help by people who choose to help them without the government stepping in.

Unfortunately it will never happen, without welfare there can be no class warfare, which means it will be harder for one side or another to look human enough to get more votes than the other.

--

We did earn it, do you have a problem with that? I don't believe we should look down on anyone that earns their money honestly, we shouldn't require them to pain more of a % tax, I believe in a flat tax where everyone pays the same %.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Could you do something for me? Think of ten words that describe yourself, and post the first words you come up with. It's an experiment we did in my school, and yes, it is relevant.

Lindsosaurus

I get what you are going for..whatever I say will be relevant because of its relation to other people. I am in my 3rd year working on my doctorate in psychology, I'm not saying that a sense of community isn't important, but rather that it is a balance...people need a sense of self and it can be just as detrimental to a person's mental health if they do not have some sense of themselves as an individual. and my first word is determined.

Well, "determined" is an individual description and not a collective one.

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Yes they are. Communism =/= socialism, and as i've said, Hitler and Stalin were almost identical politically. It makes sense to have some restrictions on the market, but that's not what a "Socialist" country espouses.fidosim

No they are not. The Nazi party stood against the ideals of socialism the moment they became extreme right-wing elitist racists. They were not socialists they were fascists.

Political spectrum

Anarchy-Communism-Socialism-Liberalism-Moderate-Conservatism-Fascism-Divine Right (where the state/leader is basically viewed as god)

Anarchy IS on one end what are you talking about? and Divine right is synonymous with totalitarianism. Look again.

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="Trinners"]

No they are not. The Nazi party stood against the ideals of socialism the moment they became extreme right-wing elitist racists. They were not socialists they were fascists.

Political spectrum

Anarchy-Communism-Socialism-Liberalism-Moderate-Conservatism-Fascism-Divine Right (where the state/leader is basically viewed as god)

Anarchy IS on one end what are you talking about? and Divine right is synonymous with totalitarianism. Look again.

It seems to me that the majority of Americans are unanimously enraged at the slightest mention of socialism. I'm not saying socialism is good or bad, but I find that if any policy/bill brought up has properties that even resemble being socialist, everyone yells "NO!" before even weighing the pros and cons of said policy.

Edit: Changed the title to something more appropriate ;)

Edit 2: I am NOT saying in any way, shape or form that the States should be socialist, on the contrary they should stay capitalist. I'm just saying that certain ideas shouldn't be shut down without consideration.

Well, "determined" is an individual description and not a collective one.

Theokhoth

Well....No one's gonna question that I'm American :lol:

[QUOTE="Trinners"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] That's the most screwed up political spectrum i've ever seen. The political spectrum usually has anarchy on one end, with totalitarianism on the other. The United States is somewhere in the middle. Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state.fidosim

Anarchy IS on one end what are you talking about? and Divine right is synonymous with totalitarianism. Look again.

I'm starting to think you know nothing about political science. You want a more detailed diagram?

And how does divine right kingship have nothing to do with totalitarianism? Both are cases in which the state/head of state has total control. Divine right is the most extreme ideology because the state/head of state is being viewed as a diety.

[QUOTE="Free_Marxet"] Because in ww2 we fought and defeated socialism, to embrace it is ridiculous to a powerful country such as ours. we already do embrace small forms of a socialism anyway.

Theokhoth

Okay my wording was off, what I meant to say was if such extreme socialist tactics are used by an evil man, they can be used to garner unimaginable support and power amongst their own people. Which is exactly what hitler did, the beginning was INDEED socialistic. I don't want to live in such a socialist nation that has one of, if not the most powerful military in the world. Even though our own military is socialist in ways... it doesn't work when you have 300 million people.

Some of europe is socialist, so to say that the horrors that went on were socialist is a bit over the top, so excuse what I said.