Why I finally feel feminism is necessary

the plight of women? Also why does the bar graph address only "hetero males" who "hate feminism", don't you think some gay guys also don't like feminism (and the word "hate" is overused today - as is love -).

As far as the bar graph goes

1. "No female president" - yet. I'm sure one will eventually come around. The important thing is to vote for someone who will be a good president, not to just vote for a woman merely for the sake of electing a female president.

2. "Everyone cares more about your body than you as a person" Not true. That's an over-generalization.

3. "Paid less for same job". Not true at all. I'm pretty sure federal and state laws prohibit paying employees less based on their sex.

4. "Women aren't allowed to own men as property" - nor are men allowed to own women. At least in this country. In some other countries men maybe point 4 is accurate.

5. "expected to have children you may not want" - not sure what they're getting at here. Could be a veiled reference to abortion, could be something else. Most women want to have at least some children. Women who don't want any children at all are being rather short-sighted, who's gonna take care of them when they get old?

1. Shows how women are underrepresented in politics. Nobody is saying "Vote for someone solely based on sex so we can have a female president", it's saying that men make up the majority of politicians, and though more and more women are in positions of political power, they still have a ways to go.

2. I think this is in reference to the media using sex in advertisements, television and film. It's a cheap way to get male consumer's attention, and you really can't deny that.

3. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/09/women-earn-less-than-men_n_3046461.html

4. This isn't about whether or not males are allowed to own persons (they can't, though look no further to 1800s America to a time when they did), it's just that fact that in most developed countries women don't have the right to own men either, and is just another example of women being denied rights by laws that were passed, presumably by men.

5. Again, I don't think this is about abortion so much as how women are typically expected to get married (and take her husband's last name) and have children. Many women may not want to get married or have children, and they shouldn't be ostracized by their friends and family for their own personal decision. Never let your family dictate what life choices you should make, especially when it's not them who would be rasing your children.

Whoever made that list must hate feminism as well...

Except, in quite a few places around the world women have just as many, if not more, rights than Men. Even just in America, where most of the problem supposedly is, how often have you seen cases of divorce where the situation wasn't vastly in the favor of the woman? Or if you were someone who was sexually abused by a psychotic woman, and you go to police station to report, and she then counters it by saying YOU were the one who assaulted, which side do they believe more often?

That's just simple examples, I can't be bothered to look much else, but the situation of women is not nearly as bad as they seem to think. It could be better, yes, but it's not horrible, except when you live in an area of openly sexist people, which could just as easily happen to a man anyway.

Your hypothetical situations are completely unsubstantiated. The court bias in favour of mothers in custody is basically a myth and I can't actually find examples (or even more important, proof of statistical probability) of the latter scenario. Even if they were true, they don't support for the ridiculous idea that women have more "rights" nor do they disprove the basic problem that we men have an overall advantage to women in all of those major categories that affect an individual's living standards.

The evidence for systemic discrimination against women is far more concrete, such as their extremely low political representation, their inferior wages and lower ability to promote in virtually every career field, a similar effect in education where women receive smaller rewards for their efforts, .etc. Even in countries with "institutionalized" feminism, there is a cultural tendency to disapprove of women who overtly exert authority, autonomy, technical and leadership skills, while rewarding them in men. This makes it far more difficult for women to acquire the managerial, scientific, political and executive positions that we currently dominate.

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm so sick of this entire topic...ugh.

Yeah, you're really contributing to this discussion by saying "Ugh I hate feminism, why does this topic even exist?".

It exists but to a lot of people it's a real issue worth discussing and that's what we're going to do. If you don't care about this issue, then nobody is forcing you to comment.

got to agree there. Feminism used to stand for something. Voting rights, equal pay, discrimination, etc. Now the last two do happen, but they also happen to males. Rape happens more to men in prison than females according to one statistic. The new feminists put the whole movement to shame. I am a humanist. Everyone should have the same oppertunities. Wether they be male, female, black, white, gay, etc.

@truechartreuse said:

1. There has been a female prime minster and other examples in other countries .... 1 position of power so what?

2. Right, because this doesn't work both ways? job, money, looks .... woman care about that stuff too..... hypocritical to the core.

3. where? where does this happen? a blanket statement....... that had more truth a long time ago.

4. .... wtf is this!?

5. WTF IS THIS? These feminists hypocritical ar*eholes are the ones that friggin stopped the male pill because "They own the right to have a child whenever they want, and the man doesn't have a say" AND THEY WON. Woman are in a far more powerful position with anything child related... what a crock of s*it.

... that's gotta be the saddest list of reasons ever.

makes a new account, brings up a very debated topic.... posts an image of one of the lamest lists to intentionally rile people... then tells people to "grow up" .... oh and admitting starting arguements with feminists on facebook....

Please use your skills to explain point 4.

Feminism in the sense of being for equality among men and women is necessary because equality is a cool thing.

Feminism in the man hating sense is not.

Feminism is a JOKE and any "man" who proclaims himself a feminist is a joke as well

The point is that women had no say when laws forbidding slavery were passed. For example, the 13th amendment outlawing any forms of slavery in the US was written, passed, and ratified by men at a time when women weren't allowed to vote. Women had no involvement with the Constitution and the majority of the Bill of Rights. No representation to speak of. It's fair to say society would be a lot different if women actually had a say in the laws passed from the dawn of civilization up until the 2000s. This particular issue is something that many feminists have advocated for, but unsurprisingly are stonewalled by the everlasting results of several centuries of women being barred from politics.

... and that has what to do with the present and this list?

Point 4 isn't even about that... point 4 suggests that men actually own woman..... and that woman can't own men... the first statement is a crock of s*it... in what form do I own my girlfriend or any female I know? or anyone else in our countries?, and the demand from point 4 is suggesting ownsership of men.... is not only hypocritical but completely idiotic.... as in theory... owning people should not be a thing..... yet they WANT ownership.

Unless this is refering to some backwater countries.... it is completely redundant in 1st world societies/western.

What is the source of your list?

oh right... your a troll account.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Domesticity

Again, using the word troll in a poor attempt to silence someone you disagree with rather than actually debating with them is not productive.

I don't know what that has to do with women owning men. Do you want to be a slave to a woman? Should anyone be a slave?

I see you've edited the OP. Surely the point should be: In some countries, men own women... and this is unacceptable. The problem is that men own women. Not that women can't own men.

I don't have a problem with women getting paid the same wage for the same work as a man doing the same job. I do have a problem with women who get paid the same wage as a man when they had to lower the physical requirements for them to get the job in the first place.

I remember when all of this started and being raised to be a gentleman I would open doors foe women and I still do only to be told by some do think I am helpless I can open my own door. To some one raised in the era I was raised in you didn't know how to respond.

If you watch television most television shows and commercials try to feminize men which is a growing trend in society now days..

and again not relevant to today, and you still did not debate my point... nice cop out.

@truechartreuse: as a current stay at home dad i have a bit of an understanding. however, "feminism" as a political organization and voice is meaningless to me and i despise it. each group and issue will be judged separately without "political" influence or methodology, talking pts or verbiage or meaning.

1.) lol, so what? meaningless stat.

2.) an incorrect absolute and generalization and, therefore, worthless. even using basic common sense one is forced to ridicule this statement.j

3.) sometimes. sometimes absolutely not true. all jobs are not created equal between sexes. boo-hoo.

4.) lol

5.) yes, women get away with immorality and the possible murder of their children: let me PROVE the immorality of abortion quite easily-- first, do you consider murder immoral? EXACTLY when is a fetus a living, human being? point proven due to the fact that NOBODY knows EXACTLY when a fetus is a human being and each side can find numerous doctors to support their view. anybody who would risk murdering what they know will become their child despite absolutely not knowing the answer to that question is immoral and possibly a murderer. nobody in their right mind would argue that that chance is acceptable.

feminism, as it's currently used in politics and society, is worthy of our animosity, skepticism and outrage.

@truechartreuse: got a question. If you were given full consciousness before birth, seeing previews and being knowledgeable of what advantages and disadvantages men and women have socially and physically

what gender would you pick to be born as?

now what genders do you wonder most people would choose to be born as?

dude, you can still recognize what social advantages and disadvantages other people have, and still boldly celebrate the perks of being a dude. Life is frustrating enough.

The only thing people dont like are psychoes and assholes who OVERLY abuse whatever position they have. and they come in all genders and races.

As far as female leadership, only child birth and raising are the main blockade i see. Sheryl Sandberg even said it in a presentation. But determined people, dont let these things stop them from their dreams. They dont lobby their way into institutions they want to participate in. They get in gear, and build shit, and guys respect them for their skill knowledge and versality.

THATS the ultimate equalizer. Meritocracy is still a social value that deep down we all hold.

What is the goal where society reflects that its utterly irrelevant whats between your legs? In most common spaces I see thats already the case. So Its Law of averages homie for all of us. Biology has already determined things for us, that laws cant completely reverse.

The point is there was a time where women were considered inferior to men. Every facet of society is the direct result from a decision made by man, from the very concepts of language and numerical systems. The sexes will never truly be equal unless women have an equal say in decision-making, especially in politics. It bears repeating: #4 is not implying that men own women (though in some third world countries this is sadly the case) it's the fact that women aren't allowed to own men based on laws that were passed by men. Once again, women had no involvement in the creation and passing of those laws.

Also, if you have read my opening post, the list came from the Women's Rights News facebook page.

Obviously you're either a misogynist or an actual troll, likely both.

Interesting question. Part of me wants to say I'd choose to be a woman so I'd be taken more seriously when advocating sexual equality. I admit that women have come a long way since the 1950s-60s, but I don't agree the sexes are equal yet. I don't agree with anyone that says feminism is no longer necessary or its lost its meaning. It's goals have changed, because now it's not so much about equality in the workplace, but a changing of preconceived attitudes.

The fact that women in most civilizations are expected to take her husband's last name after marriage is proof enough for me that feminism is still needed.

Uses "husband last name" as a reason for feminism needing to exist... yet will completely ignore the many things expected of a man. and point 5 is a complete lie...

Oh the goals have changed alright..... to pettyness.

kindly blow your "woman are victims" card out of your ass.... with your lame little "oh the last name" perceptions.... men are disadvantaged in many ways too due to expected perceptions... how one of my close friends was tricked by his ex saying "she was on the pill" and wasn't... then tried to deny him any access to the child at all.

modern feminism in western society is fickle.... its petty, its power grabbing without compromise... never have I seen any feminist material that says "Ok men, we see your issues, here is ours, lets work together" .... instead we get anita sarkeesians, and feminists banning the male pill because "clearly all men are evil and should not have a say in wether they have a kid or not".

But anyway, you never were against feminism.... you likely are one, come onto a this forum to spread crap.

hey trartruese- go pluck yo self. lol.

the new age: give the ole, "troll" comment when you lose and fail and have nothing to say.

fin loser.

More bittnerness from an anti-feminist who cherry-picks the perceived negative aspects of feminism while ignoring it's valid reasons for existing. Yes, a woman being expected to take her husband's last name is sexist. Why is it sexist? If you got married and were expected to take your wife's last name, would you do it? I dare you, if and when you get married, to take your wife's last name. You in all likelihood won't, and you'll expect her to take your name.

As far as domestic violence goes, we should be working to eliminate all violence instead of squabbling about which demographic commits it. Violence against males is an issue, I admit, but there needs to be a broader effort against violence in general.

How do I know this? Because two people did the same thing to me in this thread, in your case it's different because you resorting to childish insults and blatant sexist remarks in your first post. It's obvious where you stand on the issue, and so I'm not even going to bother to convince you otherwise. It'd be wasted effort. I'm sorry you feel that way though.

I'm for pay equality for women but I think that right needs to extend to protect everybody in a federally recognized protected class against discrimination (age, race, sex/gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, age, etc), I think the focus on sexual discrimination underscores the whole idea of protecting vulnerable segments of society from discrimination.

the problem with feminism is that it's not about equality... it's all right there in the name.

OP is cool. I like this thread.

Many of the comments on Gamespot are exactly why we need feminism. To get the dude-bro and fedora-neck-beardism out of gaming.

Don't listen to the haters. They just got a hard-on ever since Gamespot went the Feedbackula route and decided to reward people for being idiots.

....... use your head now, it had nothing to do with the domestic violence itself, it was compeltely to do with the people's perceptions when a man struck a woman and vice versa, there is a full video out there.... when the man is agressive, everyone jumps to the womans side, a man nearly starts a fight with him, and a woman shouts abuse "Your sick, bully" ....

Yet when that situation is recreated with the woman abusing the man.... nobody says anything, infact they point and laugh.

That is a far bigger issue than a godamn surname.... a man cannot defend himself against a woman.... there are thousands of cases where the woman commiting the domestic abuse gets away because people can't comprehend that a man doesn't want to hurt her back OR if he does attack her in self-defence he is seen as a "woman beater" ... it is a WIDESPREAD issue.

I'm not anti-feminist, I am just aware of the petty issues you bring foward are minor... and one sided. what a suprise from a modern feminist.

I know you weren't talking to me, so apologies for the intrusion, but is this still a thing? Women being expected to take men's last name? Most people I know (both husband and wife) either hyphenate their last names or nobody takes anybody's name. When I was getting married I told my wife we should both keep our names, since we both have our own businesses and our names have some weight (more hers than mine), so it would be beneficial for us not to change it. She still insisted on changing hers though...

Sadly, no where is feminism more vilified (and outright misogyny is more evident) than on the internet.

let me guess, you are subscribed to anita sarkeesian....

White feminist women...*sigh* Try being black or arabic over seas and then you'll have a right to complain.

There are issues facing men and women. I acknowledge that. You don't have to choose what issues you want fixed. Saying "The surname issue is unimportant because there's domestic violence towards men!" isn't an excuse because the reality is that they're both issues that need addressed. If you had a tick on you and at the same time you had pneumonia, I highly doubt you'd leave the tick on you even if the pneumonia was your primary concern. You'd treat both issues. I'm not going to ignore the issues facing women just because there are issues facing men, nor vice-versa.

And the fact she eventually did change her name proves my point. Society and tradition forces men and women to accept preconceived roles, which isn't healthy for anyone and just continues a culture of stereotypes and sexism.

Wow man, just wow...sorry to say but you're a bloody hypocrite....you've been shouting "women's rights" for days in this post and now you pretty much said that women are too weak to make their own decisions and what they do is dictated by society. My wife took my name because she bloody well wanted it...her great-grandmother hyphenated her name when she got married, her grandmother did the same, her mother didn't take her husband's name at all. My wife took mine (and at my request she kept her maiden name last, as in "my last name" "her last name") because (her words), we spent so much time apart that she wanted to feel, in all aspects of her life, that we were now together, and now, every time she would sign something, she'd be proud that we made it through living in different countries for years.

Screw your condescending ass, I'm done with you...

@truechartreuse: Nope. Feminists can all rot in a cave for all I care.

The problem with feminists is that they don't actually want equality. They want women to have advantages and rights over men.

Fact is there is jobs that men do that women simply cannot do. Just like there is jobs that women do which men simply cannot do. Our bodies are built differently and that's just the way it is ladies.

Who cares if there has need been a woman president? What does it matter who is in the office? A persons gender is not what decides the vote, a persons opinion and political stance is what decides the vote.

As a woman I think feminism is pure bullshit. Feminism has done more damage than good. Feminism has made many women feel entitled and irrational.

Feminist complain about men objectifying them. But in the same breath they encourage women dress as slutty as they want. Women objectify themselves all the time but then turn around and complain when men do it.

Feminist are pro choice. They think it is solely the woman's decision to abort a pregnancy and men have no say. Yet when they want child support from the father he doesn't have a choice in that.

We don't need feminism to get a female president. Indonesia is a Muslim country and aren't too good with women's right yet they had a female president.

as a guy, i laugh at "feminists."

Look, it's simply not my job, nor my place, to educate you people on this. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I urge you to look at the bigger picture rather than your own personal feelings. If you can't see there is misogyny in today's society (and yes, within yourselves) I can't make you see it, just like nobody could convince me that when I was spewing the same sexist nonsense before I realized that in many aspects, women are at a disadvantage. While they may have advantages in other areas (and again, I'm not denying that there are problems facing men too) but there's quite a few more cards stacked against women then men. No matter which way you look at it.

Like I did, you have to come to that conclusion yourselves.

Cheers.

Saying that women can be indoctrinated or coerced into supporting a sexist social order does not in any way contradict feminism.

These are incredibly silly criticisms. "Dressing slutty" does not equate to "self-objectification" and there's nothing wrong with feminists asking society to change its incredibly destructive, judgmental and hypocritical attitude towards girls who wear certain kinds of clothing. Of course, I've never even heard of a feminist who "encouraged" women to "dress slutty", so you better hope you have actual proof that a lot of feminists have these double standards you claim they do.

Child support obligations for men are not equivalent to abortion, they're equivalent to child support obligations for women, which last I checked are exactly the same except that men tend to earn more money than the mothers they knocked up and so they'll assume more of the financial burden. This is hardly a hypocritical situation unless you really want to stretch the meaning of the word "hypocritical", although I must admit that twisting or misusing terms, outright lying and misinformation are a common tool of the anti-feminist and so I'm not very surprised about this.

No, but pretty much stating that no woman can make her own mind and decide things for herself does.

That's not the point. Nobody is saying your wife didn't make a personal decision to take your last name, it's the fact that the whole of society expects her to do it. If it was the norm for the man to take the woman's last name, I'm fairly certain she wouldn't have done so. Whether we like it or not, society's preconceived roles and traditions do dictate what we do sometimes.

What happens to men when they want to take their wife's last name (and I know one man who did because his biological family abused him his whole life)? They get ridiculed and accused of being effeminate or what have you. So here we have a sexist issue that usually affects women but also men.

Again, you are making a bunch of generalisations...I have nothing against feminism but I think people like you don't help the cause at all. Yes, some of the problems you refer to ARE real (unfortunately) but the stereotypical way you approach them is only going to make people who otherwise might support you to just get annoyed by your delivery and leave.

If you really care about the problems women face, and everyone should, do yourself a favour and be more objective and less conspiracy theorist...

I know it's not politically correct to say this but men and women arr not eqaul.

Men and women are eqaul in terms of intelligence but women are outmatched physically, so there not eqaul.

The biggest issue with mainstream feminism is that instead of attacking the weakness IN women and enforce them to be stronger it demands men lessen themselves as competition.

I mean African humanitarian atrocities keep me from caring about crying fools in the states.

And I know several women that far surpass you in spelling and grammar. What of it?

What does my grammar have to do with that, what I said is true.

Surely I can't be reading this right.

Roughly paraphrased, it seems to be saying, "The issue isn't that men can own women. The issue is that women CAN'T own men! This is an example of women's right to own men being denied by laws which were written by men."

Lets get to the bottom of this. You are a troll account, I don't know if you are a stereotypical internet feminist trolling a mostly male community for kicks, "Research" or a need to argue at men from the safety of your computer. or you are some teenage boy that fancy's a feminist he found on facebook and is now a white knight king (always funny when that irony happens)... but you are a troll to this forum nothing more.

You constantly bring up the surname issues. when fact of the matter is, its not forced, yes its more common for the woman to, but the option is there, many still agree to it as a romantic gesture, or a tradition... its hardly a harmful tradition and out of all the things to constantly bring up its the most childish and insignificant of the bunch... you sound incredibly naive.... (if there is the slightest possibility that your not a troll).

@thehig1 has a point to some degree. the average male is stronger... intelligence is a lottery for both sexes (and circumstance based) the masculine traits that managed to keep our species alive in much harsher times is now demonized by the more extreme feminists... and the strenghts precieved naturally about woman are too ... because they are not what men have.

Not that it matters, pleanty of woman that try to be strong are stronger than me. and vice versa. same with intelligence, or caring nature...

But this thread is really pathetic.... your argument is terrible.... the image you use as your "conversion justification" (don't kid yourself, you never converted... this was always your way... your arguement is too irrational and entrenched for me to believe otherwise.) is terrible and does woman injustice... it was clearly made by an invalid.

You ignore major issues like male pill being banned, and men getting abused in public by woman is funny, yet the other way around is not, you ignore the herroundous children related bias in favour of woman.... forcing male child care yet the reverse is unlikely.

In 1st world western society feminism boils down to media perceptions.... that they are hypocrits about. "Objectification" ... I wonder if our ancient ancestors look at their female counterparts and went "I want to sex that object up" .... Objectification.... what a friggin cop out. Woman judge men on equally frustrating requirements... that vary (just like men). Men are sexualised more and more (which I am ok with... because... sexualiaty is not a bad thing.... and I'm average looking so I dont even benefit.).

Honestly.... 1st world western woman have as many gender advantages as disadvantages, and I'l confidently claim that those advantages far outweight the petty little remaining disadvantages.