I don't get it. I guess there was a thread about this topic where everyone was insulting LJS for some reason?Cue 10+ pages of people insulting LJS
clyde46
Why is prostitution illegal when abortion is legal?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]
Well, I am sure that it probably has something to do with prostitution bringing about all sorts of other crimes with its legalization. Often times prostitutes are coerced against their will to become or remain prostitutes, they can be used by organized crime to raise revenue, and also just attracts people you don't really want living in your city, neighborhood, or wherever. I am also against abortion though.
worlock77
Actually the things you just listed are brought about because of its illegality.
I highly doubt that women being forced into prostitution is caused by its illegality. If anything its illegality is a deterrent, because every prostitute has the potential to be busted. If prostitution was legal, then there would be no real way to try and determine who is a prostitute by choice and who has been forced into it through coercion. Also, I don't see how legalizing prostitution would change the fact that it attracts crime and criminals like bees to honey. Legalizing it is not all of a sudden going to make it a morally neutral act that is acceptable for most of America, it will still attract those who have questionable morals at best (who are usually criminals). Much of the reason I think it is illegal is because people don't want this stuff going on in their communities.Probably cause they can't tax it.
sonicare
That and if you don't keep people away from it the spread of disease becomes greater. Prostitutes aren't conscious of the diseases they are spreading. They're either too stupid to understand, don't care or are too high to care about anything. It's not uncommon for prostitutes to have a disease, know of it and give it to other people.
Control? I don't want my tax dollars being used to vaccinate prostitutes. We have more important things to invest in. It would be completely irresponsible since we are in debt anyway. We can't afford more stupid **** . Somebody has to say "No, we can't afford it and we don't need it."
[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]
Well, I am sure that it probably has something to do with prostitution bringing about all sorts of other crimes with its legalization. Often times prostitutes are coerced against their will to become or remain prostitutes, they can be used by organized crime to raise revenue, and also just attracts people you don't really want living in your city, neighborhood, or wherever. I am also against abortion though.
Plzhelpmelearn
Actually the things you just listed are brought about because of its illegality.
I highly doubt that women being forced into prostitution is caused by its illegality. If anything its illegality is a deterrent, because every prostitute has the potential to be busted. If prostitution was legal, then there would be no real way to try and determine who is a prostitute by choice and who has been forced into it through coercion. Also, I don't see how legalizing prostitution would change the fact that it attracts crime and criminals like bees to honey. Legalizing it is not all of a sudden going to make it a morally neutral act that is acceptable for most of America, it will still attract those who have questionable morals at best (who are usually criminals). Much of the reason I think it is illegal is because people don't want this stuff going on in their communities.People, men and women, are forced into doing all kinds of things. This is hardly exclusive to prostitution and hardly an argument against its legality. If it is legal then it can be licensed, regulated, and taxed, thus removing most of the problems associated with it. Just like with drugs, most of the problems with it are because it is illegal. The human being seeks pleasure above all else, and will seek out whatever pleasures it desires regardless of legality. You cannot legislate morality, and you cannot legislate vice. Any attempts to do so only cause more problems than they solve.
You have a very naive view of the world. Prostitution rarely works like that, like some kind of business deal. There are pimps and brothels, drug addicted prostitutes. It's a dark and disgusting world, not glamorous like some movies make it seem. Of course, you will retort with the stock liberatarian reply that if it were only made legal, it would be open and clean and have no problems.GmasterRED
Prostution rarely works like that because it's rarely given a chance to work like that. Oh, and I'm not libertarian. Nice job at being presumptious though.
I highly doubt that women being forced into prostitution is caused by its illegality. If anything its illegality is a deterrent, because every prostitute has the potential to be busted. If prostitution was legal, then there would be no real way to try and determine who is a prostitute by choice and who has been forced into it through coercion. Also, I don't see how legalizing prostitution would change the fact that it attracts crime and criminals like bees to honey. Legalizing it is not all of a sudden going to make it a morally neutral act that is acceptable for most of America, it will still attract those who have questionable morals at best (who are usually criminals). Much of the reason I think it is illegal is because people don't want this stuff going on in their communities.[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"][QUOTE="worlock77"]
Actually the things you just listed are brought about because of its illegality.
worlock77
People, men and women, are forced into doing all kinds of things. This is hardly exclusive to prostitution and hardly an argument against its legality. If it is legal then it can be licensed, regulated, and taxed, thus removing most of the problems associated with it. Just like with drugs, most of the problems with it are because it is illegal. The human being seeks pleasure above all else, and will seek out whatever pleasures it desires regardless of legality. You cannot legislate morality, and you cannot legislate vice. Any attempts to do so only cause more problems than they solve.
Drugs and Alcohol= Commodities. Prostitute= a human being. They cannot and should not be equated. While people are forced to do all sorts of things, we are referring to something that is undoubtedly exceptional. An individual's sexuality is something sacred that belongs to each individual. If someone wants to be frivolous with it that is their choice. However, legalizing prostitution is basically turning your back on those who are forced to sell their sexuality and thus themselves to the highest bidder. Legalizing prostitution would ultimately be comparable to legalizing slavery, because that is what prostitutes are ultimately turned into. Legalizing it is not all of a sudden going to turn it into a middle class American past time like drinking a beer at a baseball game, it will still be controlled by criminals.You have a very naive view of the world. Prostitution rarely works like that, like some kind of business deal. There are pimps and brothels, drug addicted prostitutes. It's a dark and disgusting world, not glamorous like some movies make it seem. Of course, you will retort with the stock liberatarian reply that if it were only made legal, it would be open and clean and have no problems.GmasterRED
Generally when you make something illegal and force it to be run via criminal enterprises, it will be dark and dirty.
Regulation is your friend. You won't be able to stop prostitution and I see no reason to stop it. Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal? Better to just regulate and tax the buisness, and take revenue away from criminal groups.
Or we could just keep it illegal, give those groups their money, and claim how we're all so moral.
Every prostitute I have evermet has had a drug problem. It's no mystery as to why they became prostitutes. It's hard to keep a steady job as a drug addict. They have no shame, they just want their fix. All of the prostitutes are downtown because that's the place to find drugs and the only place they can afford to live. We have slums and low rent property because we don't want them around us. It's all related to drugs.
How many prostitutes have you met, just out of curiosity? :lol:Every prostitute I have ever met has had a drug problem. MagnumPI
[QUOTE="GmasterRED"]You have a very naive view of the world. Prostitution rarely works like that, like some kind of business deal. There are pimps and brothels, drug addicted prostitutes. It's a dark and disgusting world, not glamorous like some movies make it seem. Of course, you will retort with the stock liberatarian reply that if it were only made legal, it would be open and clean and have no problems.Pixel-Pirate
Generally when you make something illegal and force it to be run via criminal enterprises, it will be dark and dirty.
Regulation is your friend. You won't be able to stop prostitution and I see no reason to stop it. Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal? Better to just regulate and tax the buisness, and take revenue away from criminal groups.
Or we could just keep it illegal, give those groups their money, and claim how we're all so moral.
Sex is not legal per se. Consensual sex between two adults is legal. I would argue that it prostitution is not often what most would consider that. Secondly legalizing it would almost certainly not take it out of the hands of criminal organizations, like it would with marijuana.This makes no sense at all.
Sex is not legal per se. Consensual sex between two adults is legal. I would argue that it prostitution is not often what most would consider that.If the prostitute agrees to it, then it is by default consensual. If she does not agree to it, then it is sex slavery, which would most certainly not be covered under legal prostitution and which is the form of "prostitution" you would very likely get if you make actual prostitution illegal.
Secondly legalizing it would almost certainly not take it out of the hands of criminal organizations, like it would with marijuana.
No, it won't automatically destroy them from the get-go. Nothing can do that. However, creating LEGAL "safe zones" for prostitution would draw potential customers AWAY from illegal prostitutes and hence thin the funding for criminal organizations because said safe zones wouldn't carry the risk of STD spread, wouldn't get you involved with the criminal underworld and would probably have some level of "quality control", hence better "services". You also wouldn't have to stick as many prostitutes in jail or whatnot - which means saving time, money and space.
The overall result is that we spend less and get something out of it (through taxation of licensed brothels), whereas criminals spend more (to keep up) and get less out of it (because they have to deal with competitors who don't have to worry about being arrested as long as they keep their hands clean). This is sort of the opposite of the situation we have right now.
Plzhelpmelearn
You have a very naive view of the world. Prostitution rarely works like that, like some kind of business deal. There are pimps and brothels, drug addicted prostitutes. It's a dark and disgusting world, not glamorous like some movies make it seem. Of course, you will retort with the stock liberatarian reply that if it were only made legal, it would be open and clean and have no problems.GmasterRED
When you're done putting words in your opponents' mouths, think about WHY prostitution's in the state it's in right now. It has something to do with the fact that where there ARE prostitutes, the government has difficulty getting them under control.
Every prostitute I have evermet has had a drug problem. It's no mystery as to why they became prostitutes. It's hard to keep a steady job as a drug addict. They have no shame, they just want their fix. All of the prostitutes are downtown because that's the place to find drugs and the only place they can afford to live. We have slums and low rent property because we don't want them around us. It's all related to drugs.
MagnumPI
Certainly, your anecdotal evidence and personal experiences are a solid indicator of the causes for an acvitity that takes place around the entire world. :roll:
[QUOTE="GmasterRED"]You have a very naive view of the world. Prostitution rarely works like that, like some kind of business deal. There are pimps and brothels, drug addicted prostitutes. It's a dark and disgusting world, not glamorous like some movies make it seem. Of course, you will retort with the stock liberatarian reply that if it were only made legal, it would be open and clean and have no problems.Pixel-Pirate
Generally when you make something illegal and force it to be run via criminal enterprises, it will be dark and dirty.
Regulation is your friend. You won't be able to stop prostitution and I see no reason to stop it. Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal? Better to just regulate and tax the buisness, and take revenue away from criminal groups.
Or we could just keep it illegal, give those groups their money, and claim how we're all so moral.
Selling is legal. Humans are legal. Why can't selling humans be legal? Let's bring back slavery.Regulation is your friend. You won't be able to stop prostitution and I see no reason to stop it. Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal? Better to just regulate and tax the buisness, and take revenue away from criminal groups.
Or we could just keep it illegal, give those groups their money, and claim how we're all so moral.
Pixel-Pirate
You both gave the stock libertarian reply. "Make it legal, and there is nothing wrong with it."Prostution rarely works like that because it's rarely given a chance to work like that. Oh, and I'm not libertarian. Nice job at being presumptious though.
worlock77
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
Regulation is your friend. You won't be able to stop prostitution and I see no reason to stop it. Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal? Better to just regulate and tax the buisness, and take revenue away from criminal groups.
Or we could just keep it illegal, give those groups their money, and claim how we're all so moral.
GmasterRED
You both gave the stock libertarian reply. "Make it legal, and there is nothing wrong with it."Prostution rarely works like that because it's rarely given a chance to work like that. Oh, and I'm not libertarian. Nice job at being presumptious though.
worlock77
Attack the person, rather than the argument? Isn't there a name for that...?
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"][QUOTE="GmasterRED"]You have a very naive view of the world. Prostitution rarely works like that, like some kind of business deal. There are pimps and brothels, drug addicted prostitutes. It's a dark and disgusting world, not glamorous like some movies make it seem. Of course, you will retort with the stock liberatarian reply that if it were only made legal, it would be open and clean and have no problems.GmasterRED
Generally when you make something illegal and force it to be run via criminal enterprises, it will be dark and dirty.
Regulation is your friend. You won't be able to stop prostitution and I see no reason to stop it. Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal? Better to just regulate and tax the buisness, and take revenue away from criminal groups.
Or we could just keep it illegal, give those groups their money, and claim how we're all so moral.
Selling is legal. Humans are legal. Why can't selling humans be legal? Let's bring back slavery.Except "human" is a species, not an act or item. You can't make humans illegal, for instance.
Well I guess I just have to disagree with you. While legalizing it may help create a "safer" regulated form of prostitution, I think it will also probably cause a dramatic increase in the sex slave trade since the line between prostitution and sex slavery is only in the mind of the prostitute.[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]Sex is not legal per se. Consensual sex between two adults is legal. I would argue that it prostitution is not often what most would consider that.
If the prostitute agrees to it, then it is by default consensual. If she does not agree to it, then it is sex slavery, which would most certainly not be covered under legal prostitution and which is the form of "prostitution" you would very likely get if you make actual prostitution illegal.
Secondly legalizing it would almost certainly not take it out of the hands of criminal organizations, like it would with marijuana.
No, it won't automatically destroy them from the get-go. Nothing can do that. However, creating LEGAL "safe zones" for prostitution would draw potential customers AWAY from illegal prostitutes and hence thin the funding for criminal organizations because said safe zones wouldn't carry the risk of STD spread, wouldn't get you involved with the criminal underworld and would probably have some level of "quality control", hence better "services". You also wouldn't have to stick as many prostitutes in jail or whatnot - which means saving time, money and space.
The overall result is that we spend less and get something out of it (through taxation of licensed brothels), whereas criminals spend more (to keep up) and get less out of it (because they have to deal with competitors who don't have to worry about being arrested as long as they keep their hands clean). This is sort of the opposite of the situation we have right now.
Barbariser
Selling is legal. Humans are legal. Why can't selling humans be legal? Let's bring back slavery.[QUOTE="GmasterRED"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
Generally when you make something illegal and force it to be run via criminal enterprises, it will be dark and dirty.
Regulation is your friend. You won't be able to stop prostitution and I see no reason to stop it. Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal? Better to just regulate and tax the buisness, and take revenue away from criminal groups.
Or we could just keep it illegal, give those groups their money, and claim how we're all so moral.
Pixel-Pirate
Except "human" is a species, not an act or item. You can't make humans illegal, for instance.
"Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal."
That's kind of a weak argument in that it assumes that all forms of selling are legal; some forms of "selling" are illegal. For example, selling some forms of weapons is illegal by definition. "Selling" is "legal" depending on what is being sold. In this case, it is commercial sex, which has been deemed illegal to sell, just as some dangerous firearms have been determined to be illegal to sell.
That being said, I do support the legalization of prostitution.
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
[QUOTE="GmasterRED"] Selling is legal. Humans are legal. Why can't selling humans be legal? Let's bring back slavery.SgtKevali
Except "human" is a species, not an act or item. You can't make humans illegal, for instance.
"Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal."
That's kind of a weak argument in that it assumes that all forms of selling are legal; some forms of "selling" are illegal. For example, selling some forms of weapons is illegal by definition. "Selling" is "legal" depending on what is being sold. In this case, it is commercial sex, which has been deemed illegal to sell, just as some dangerous firearms have been determined to be illegal to sell.
That being said, I do support the legalization of prostitution.
That quote is from George Carlin.[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
Except "human" is a species, not an act or item. You can't make humans illegal, for instance.
bruinfan617
"Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal."
That's kind of a weak argument in that it assumes that all forms of selling are legal; some forms of "selling" are illegal. For example, selling some forms of weapons is illegal by definition. "Selling" is "legal" depending on what is being sold. In this case, it is commercial sex, which has been deemed illegal to sell, just as some dangerous firearms have been determined to be illegal to sell.
That being said, I do support the legalization of prostitution.
That quote is from George Carlin.Do you have the clip of him saying it? I 'd love to see him talk about it. :P
That quote is from George Carlin.[QUOTE="bruinfan617"]
[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]
"Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal."
That's kind of a weak argument in that it assumes that all forms of selling are legal; some forms of "selling" are illegal. For example, selling some forms of weapons is illegal by definition. "Selling" is "legal" depending on what is being sold. In this case, it is commercial sex, which has been deemed illegal to sell, just as some dangerous firearms have been determined to be illegal to sell.
That being said, I do support the legalization of prostitution.
SgtKevali
Do you have the clip of him saying it? I 'd love to see him talk about it. :P
There you go.:)[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]
[QUOTE="bruinfan617"]That quote is from George Carlin.
bruinfan617
Do you have the clip of him saying it? I 'd love to see him talk about it. :P
There you go.:)As Carlin even says it in the video, a better argument is "why is it illegal to sell something that's completely legal to give away?". That also has its own issues, but it has a more sound foundation.
Thanks, I love Carlin. :)
sex slavery is only in the mind of the prostitute.Plzhelpmelearn
No, it damn well isn't. A prostitute can leave her job at any time she wants; a sex slave can't. The difference between a prostitute and a sex slave is just like the difference between the dude who builds your house and the poor kid in Africa who's got no choice but to repair guns for his warlord or else he'd get his dad shot in the gut - one is a labourer who's voluntarily took his job, has been trained for it and can be verified as such in paperwork. The other is not.
[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]sex slavery is only in the mind of the prostitute.Barbariser
No, it damn well isn't. A prostitute can leave her job at any time she wants; a sex slave can't. The difference between a prostitute and a sex slave is just like the difference between the dude who builds your house and the poor kid in Africa who's got no choice but to repair guns for his warlord or else he'd get his dad shot in the gut - one is a labourer who's voluntarily took his job, has been trained for it and can be verified as such in paperwork. The other is not.
What I am saying is that the only real way to determine what prostitute is being a prostitute based on her own free will and those who are doing it out of fear, or because they are being manipulated or coerced somehow is to ask the individual. Unfortunately, the latter are not usually willing to be forthcoming about what has motivated them to be there.In fairness, if you were running a business that depended on good looking women to have sex with desperate men, you would probably make damn sure you had a way to keep the women under your control. Whether with drug addiction, intimidation, or whatever means necessary. I know you probably think that legalizing it will make all these bad aspects of this particular business disappear, but I guess I just have to disagree with you. Thankfully it will most likely stay illegal.
[QUOTE="Barbariser"]
[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]sex slavery is only in the mind of the prostitute.Plzhelpmelearn
No, it damn well isn't. A prostitute can leave her job at any time she wants; a sex slave can't. The difference between a prostitute and a sex slave is just like the difference between the dude who builds your house and the poor kid in Africa who's got no choice but to repair guns for his warlord or else he'd get his dad shot in the gut - one is a labourer who's voluntarily took his job, has been trained for it and can be verified as such in paperwork. The other is not.
What I am saying is that the only real way to determine what prostitute is being a prostitute based on her own free will and those who are doing it out of fear, or because they are being manipulated or coerced somehow is to ask the individual. Unfortunately, the latter are not usually willing to be forthcoming about what has motivated them to be there.In fairness, if you were running a business that depended on good looking women to have sex with desperate men, you would probably make damn sure you had a way to keep the women under your control. Whether with drug addiction, intimidation, or whatever means necessary. I know you probably think that legalizing it will make all these bad aspects of this particular business disappear, but I guess I just have to disagree with you. Thankfully it will most likely stay illegal.
Do you not understand the difference between a worker working from his own will and a slave???
Slavery does not compute with "free will", so I'm not sure what you mean. Some people are forced into sexual slavery under fear of, among other things, death and violence. All slavery is based in fear, that's the whole point. It doesn't negate the problem as not being a physical one (you seem to see it as a mental one). I might have misinterpreted what you meant, but it isn't phrased all that clearly, with all due respect. Now, if someone is a slave, it can generally be determined very quickly, as opposed to what you suggest. Otherwise, how would we be fighting sex trafficking and sexual slavery right now? There are ways of recognizing these things. Or are you perhaps talking about the definition of thew word prostitution, which is in in of itself fairly pointless in this situation. By the word "prostitute", I think he was referring to a prostitute who is not a sex slave. Arguing about definitions is fairly meaningless, as I said (as long as you know what the other person means).
You set up an immense strawman of sorts in your second section. I doubt most people who are in favor of the legalization of prostitution believe that all the terrible aspects will go away (sexual slavery, child sexual slavery, pimps etc.) with legalization. You can still regulate those and stamp down on them when necessary, even with the legalization of prostitution in general. What we're saying is that the act of two people having sex, with an exchange of cash, with no other unsavory strings attached (pimps, slavery, children etc.), should not be illegal. In some countries that have legalized prostitution, the idea of having a "pimp" is still illegal, and prostitution itself, although legal, is heavily regulated.
When you argue against our arguments, you must argue against the idea of what we generally (not all prescribe to this, of course) think should be legal (which is in this case bolded). It makes no sense to argue against what we also believe should be illegal.
Now, with prostitution, a lot of that "intimidation", as you describe it, comes from the "pimp-prostitute relationship". Many advocates of the legalization of prostitution believe that this relationship should be illegal, and that "cash for sex" should be between the two people in question (seller and buyer). With prostitution being illegal, it is actually more difficult for that kind of a relationship to work, and women are driven into working in a more coercive environment (which you claim to dislike). Many advocates of the legalization of prostitution believe that the "business" environment (brothels, whorehouses etc.) should also be prohibited, as it conflicts with the bolded to a large extent, although that is an issue that is argued upon quite often.
Prostitution is used to support drug abuse, as you said. I don't see that as relevant to the argument against prostitution, as ANY job can support an individual's drug addiction. If any action should stem from this problem, it should be the enactment of more programs to help those with drug abuse problems.
Honestly, I do believe that prostitution (in the form I bolded) will continue to become legalized in more and more locations, because as Western society moves forward, it tends to liberalize more and more in these sorts of social issues. Sure, it'll be illegal under some authoritarian regimes (and other countries), but I believe it will be legal in most of the West, eventually.
What I am saying is that the only real way to determine what prostitute is being a prostitute based on her own free will and those who are doing it out of fear, or because they are being manipulated or coerced somehow is to ask the individual. Unfortunately, the latter are not usually willing to be forthcoming about what has motivated them to be there.[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]
[QUOTE="Barbariser"]
No, it damn well isn't. A prostitute can leave her job at any time she wants; a sex slave can't. The difference between a prostitute and a sex slave is just like the difference between the dude who builds your house and the poor kid in Africa who's got no choice but to repair guns for his warlord or else he'd get his dad shot in the gut - one is a labourer who's voluntarily took his job, has been trained for it and can be verified as such in paperwork. The other is not.
SgtKevali
In fairness, if you were running a business that depended on good looking women to have sex with desperate men, you would probably make damn sure you had a way to keep the women under your control. Whether with drug addiction, intimidation, or whatever means necessary. I know you probably think that legalizing it will make all these bad aspects of this particular business disappear, but I guess I just have to disagree with you. Thankfully it will most likely stay illegal.
Do you understand the difference between a worker working from his own will and a slave?
Slavery does not compute with "free will", so I'm not sure what you mean. Some people are forced into sexual slavery under fear of, among other things, death and violence. All slavery is based in fear, that's the whole point. It doesn't negate the problem as not being a physical one (you seem to see it as a mental one). I might have misinterpreted what you meant, but it isn't phrased all that clearly, with all due respect. Now, if someone is a slave, it can generally be determined very quickly, as opposed to what you suggest. Otherwise, how would we be fighting sex trafficking and sexual slavery right now? There are ways of recognizing these things.
You set up an immense strawman of sorts in your second paragraph. I doubt most people who are in favor of the legalization of prostitution believe that all the terrible aspects will go away (sexual slavery, child sexual slavery, pimps etc.) with legalization. You can still regulate those and stamp down on them when necessary, even with the legalization of prostitution in general. What we're saying is that the act of two people having sex, with an exchange of cash, with no other unsavory strings attached (pimps, slavery, children etc.), should not be illegal. In some countries that have legalized prostitution, the idea of having a "pimp" is still illegal, and prostitution itself, although legal, is heavily regulated.
When you argue against our arguments, you must argue against the idea of what we generally (not all prescribe to this, of course) think should be legal (which is in this case bolded). It makes no sense to argue against what we also believe should be illegal.
Now, with prostitution, a lot of that "intimidation", as you describe it, comes from the "pimp-prostitute relationship". Many advocates of the legalization of prostitution believe that this relationship should be illegal, and that "cash for sex" should be between the two people in question (seller and buyer). With prostitution being illegal, it is actually more difficult for that kind of a relationship to work, and women are driven into working in a more coercive environment (which you claim to dislike). Many advocates of the legalization of prostitution believe that the "business" environment (brothels, whorehouses etc.) should also be prohibited, as it conflicts with the bolded to a large extent, although that is an issue that is argued upon quite often.
Prostitution is used to support drug abuse, as you said. I don't see that as relevant to the argument against prostitution, as ANY job can support an individual's drug addiction. If any action should stem from this problem, it should be the enactment of more programs to help those with drug abuse problems.
Honestly, I do believe that prostitution (in the form I bolded) will continue to become legalized in more and more locations, because as Western society moves forward, it tends to liberalize more and more in these sorts of social issues. Sure, it'll be illegal under some authoritarian regimes (and other countries), but I believe it will be legal in most of the West, eventually.
What I was saying is that in cases of prostitution, the only way to decipher between a willing prostitute and an unwilling prostitute (aka a slave) is by asking the prostitute. I have no problem with the bolded aspect of your post. My problem is with all the unsavory strings that come attached. You may think that they are somehow avoidable, but i personally think that they are unavoidably linked with the commercial sex trade. Under the system that we have now, it is pretty unlikely that an individual girl and guy who have sex with an exchange of cash are going to get into very much trouble, especially considering how little of a chance of getting caught there is. What law enforcement goes after or should go after in my opinion is more of the organized sex trade where those unsavory strings are inevitable. I really don't think that legalizing prostitution is going to make the life of the prostitute any easier. I believe all that it will do is allow the pimps to be more open and come out from all their hiding spots without fear of repercussions, because now they are legitimate business men, selling young women's sexuality for profit. Also, I did not say or intend to say that prostitution supports drug abuse, but drugs are often used as a means in the pimp-prostitute relationship to control the prostitute, just like intimidation and other methods.Some study found more than 80% of all prostitutes were victims of sexual abuse in their childhood and youth.
These women need help to get back on track for worthwhile careers, not to have dirty old men paying to force themselves on them.
"consenual" is such a misused word. Yes a hooker will agree to have sex, but it's because she has to, to earn an income. Most definately she will be totally unattracted to the man but force herself to do it. That's probably why so many are on drugs, to numb the emotional pain.
I don't like it because legalizing it is like continuing the abuse, it's like saying we as a society are ok with treating women like whores as long as we fulfull OUR needs, never mind hers ofcourse.
but w/e I know humans are selfish and will ultimately do what they want.
if you're ok with prostitution, would you still be ok if it was your daughter, or your mother or your sister doing it.
Some study found more than 80% of all prostitutes were victims of sexual abuse in their childhood and youth.
These women need help to get back on track for worthwhile careers, not to have dirty old men paying to force themselves on them.
"consenual" is such a misused word. Yes a hooker will agree to have sex, but it's because she has to, to earn an income. Most definately she will be totally unattracted to the man but force herself to do it. That's probably why so many are on drugs, to numb the emotional pain.
I don't like it because legalizing it is like continuing the abuse, it's like saying we as a society are ok with treating women like whores as long as we fulfull OUR needs, never mind hers ofcourse.
but w/e I know humans are selfish and will ultimately do what they want.
if you're ok with prostitution, would you still be ok if it was your daughter, or your mother or your sister doing it.
Deano
Yes, you're right. We should keep prostitution illegal so that when said women decide to do it out of desperation, they'll be working under and with criminals - who most certainly aren't going to treat them well. This is surely a better alternative than having them work in safe, government-regulated conditions when they "have to" - c'mon, how selfish is that?. :roll:
Yes, you're right. We should keep prostitution illegal so that when said women decide to do it out of desperation, they'll be working under and with criminals - who most certainly aren't going to treat them well. This is surely a better alternative than having them work in safe, government-regulated conditions when they "have to" - c'mon, how selfish is that?. :roll:
Barbariser
congratulations on missing the whole damn point.
the fact women have to sell their bodies to make a living is what is wrong. who's incharge is irrelevant.
do women grow up wanting to be hookers, of course not.
you didn't answer my question either, would you be ok with your own mother or sister or wife screwing 8-10 guys a day.
[QUOTE="SgtKevali"][QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"] What I am saying is that the only real way to determine what prostitute is being a prostitute based on her own free will and those who are doing it out of fear, or because they are being manipulated or coerced somehow is to ask the individual. Unfortunately, the latter are not usually willing to be forthcoming about what has motivated them to be there.
In fairness, if you were running a business that depended on good looking women to have sex with desperate men, you would probably make damn sure you had a way to keep the women under your control. Whether with drug addiction, intimidation, or whatever means necessary. I know you probably think that legalizing it will make all these bad aspects of this particular business disappear, but I guess I just have to disagree with you. Thankfully it will most likely stay illegal.
Plzhelpmelearn
Do you understand the difference between a worker working from his own will and a slave?
Slavery does not compute with "free will", so I'm not sure what you mean. Some people are forced into sexual slavery under fear of, among other things, death and violence. All slavery is based in fear, that's the whole point. It doesn't negate the problem as not being a physical one (you seem to see it as a mental one). I might have misinterpreted what you meant, but it isn't phrased all that clearly, with all due respect. Now, if someone is a slave, it can generally be determined very quickly, as opposed to what you suggest. Otherwise, how would we be fighting sex trafficking and sexual slavery right now? There are ways of recognizing these things.
You set up an immense strawman of sorts in your second paragraph. I doubt most people who are in favor of the legalization of prostitution believe that all the terrible aspects will go away (sexual slavery, child sexual slavery, pimps etc.) with legalization. You can still regulate those and stamp down on them when necessary, even with the legalization of prostitution in general. What we're saying is that the act of two people having sex, with an exchange of cash, with no other unsavory strings attached (pimps, slavery, children etc.), should not be illegal. In some countries that have legalized prostitution, the idea of having a "pimp" is still illegal, and prostitution itself, although legal, is heavily regulated.
When you argue against our arguments, you must argue against the idea of what we generally (not all prescribe to this, of course) think should be legal (which is in this case bolded). It makes no sense to argue against what we also believe should be illegal.
Now, with prostitution, a lot of that "intimidation", as you describe it, comes from the "pimp-prostitute relationship". Many advocates of the legalization of prostitution believe that this relationship should be illegal, and that "cash for sex" should be between the two people in question (seller and buyer). With prostitution being illegal, it is actually more difficult for that kind of a relationship to work, and women are driven into working in a more coercive environment (which you claim to dislike). Many advocates of the legalization of prostitution believe that the "business" environment (brothels, whorehouses etc.) should also be prohibited, as it conflicts with the bolded to a large extent, although that is an issue that is argued upon quite often.
Prostitution is used to support drug abuse, as you said. I don't see that as relevant to the argument against prostitution, as ANY job can support an individual's drug addiction. If any action should stem from this problem, it should be the enactment of more programs to help those with drug abuse problems.
Honestly, I do believe that prostitution (in the form I bolded) will continue to become legalized in more and more locations, because as Western society moves forward, it tends to liberalize more and more in these sorts of social issues. Sure, it'll be illegal under some authoritarian regimes (and other countries), but I believe it will be legal in most of the West, eventually.
What I was saying is that in cases of prostitution, the only way to decipher between a willing prostitute and an unwilling prostitute (aka a slave) is by asking the prostitute. I have no problem with the bolded aspect of your post. My problem is with all the unsavory strings that come attached. You may think that they are somehow avoidable, but i personally think that they are unavoidably linked with the commercial sex trade. Under the system that we have now, it is pretty unlikely that an individual girl and guy who have sex with an exchange of cash are going to get into very much trouble, especially considering how little of a chance of getting caught there is. What law enforcement goes after or should go after in my opinion is more of the organized sex trade where those unsavory strings are inevitable. I really don't think that legalizing prostitution is going to make the life of the prostitute any easier. I believe all that it will do is allow the pimps to be more open and come out from all their hiding spots without fear of repercussions, because now they are legitimate business men, selling young women's sexuality for profit. Also, I did not say or intend to say that prostitution supports drug abuse, but drugs are often used as a means in the pimp-prostitute relationship to control the prostitute, just like intimidation and other methods.Yes, asking the prostitute is one way of learning this information, but there are other ways you can acertain this. For example, looking into the "business" where she works is a very effective method, as is looking at her "coworkers". Asking her personally is by far not the only way.
You talk of these unsavory strings that come attached with legalized prostitution. These strings don't come with the form of prostitution I believe should be legal. They mostly exist (if you're referring to children, pimps etc.) on the side of what I believe should be illegal. I agree that organized "business" prostitution has many problems attached, and I believe that THAT should be illegal, or at least heavily regulated, so we have no real disagreement there.
The part I bolded is meaningless to this discussion, as I already stated that pimps shouldn't be allowed with legalized prostitution.
And I'm sorry for misinterpreting your statement about drug abuse, but that is also fairly irrelevant as a lot of countries that have legalized prostitution do not allow pimps.
I also agree that law enforcement should look into the organized side of prostitution most of the time, as that's where you'll find the true wrongdoing.
We seem to agree on most things, except the legalization of my version of prostitution, which you haven't really argued against. With that, I think I'll go to bed. :)
congratulations on missing the whole damn point.
the fact women have to sell their bodies to make a living is what is wrong. who's incharge is irrelevant.
I got your point perfectly. However, you don't seem to understand mine - keeping prostitution illegal is not going to help their situation at all. Either way they'll force themselves into the job - but only one direction produces a safe working environment for them if they do that.
do women grow up wanting to be hookers, of course not.
People don't grow up wanting to be McDonalds workers either, but it happens and no one's even thinking about making it illegal.
you didn't answer my question either, would you be ok with your own mother or sister or wife screwing 8-10 guys a day.
Irrelevant. Whether or not I'm "ok" with it (which is dependent entirely on whether or not SHE wants the job), I have no right to force her to choose a different line of work. I know I certainly wouldn't be "okay" with it if she was doing it illegally, however.
Deano
Some study found more than 80% of all prostitutes were victims of sexual abuse in their childhood and youth.
- Irrlevant. A person makes a choice to do something regardless of their background.
These women need help to get back on track for worthwhile careers, not to have dirty old men paying to force themselves on them.
- And what of those women who don't see it in such a way? What of those who choose to do it because they feel empowered by it? (Yes, such women do exist.
"consenual" is such a misused word. Yes a hooker will agree to have sex, but it's because she has to, to earn an income. Most definately she will be totally unattracted to the man but force herself to do it. That's probably why so many are on drugs, to numb the emotional pain.
- It all boils down to personal choice. The woman chooses to engage in that line of work when their are thousands of other jobs she could be doing that do not involve sex for payment.
I don't like it because legalizing it is like continuing the abuse, it's like saying we as a society are ok with treating women like whores as long as we fulfull OUR needs, never mind hers ofcourse.
but w/e I know humans are selfish and will ultimately do what they want.
- Having it illegal certainly has not changed or lessened any of that.
if you're ok with prostitution, would you still be ok if it was your daughter, or your mother or your sister doing it.
- Yes. Their body, their life, their choice.Deano
congratulations on missing the whole damn point.
the fact women have to sell their bodies to make a living is what is wrong. who's incharge is irrelevant.
do women grow up wanting to be hookers, of course not.
you didn't answer my question either, would you be ok with your own mother or sister or wife screwing 8-10 guys a day.
I wouldn't be ok with her doing that for free after meeting guys at bars either, but that's not my choice. Or the government's.Please Log In to post.
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