Why is there something, rather than nothing?

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CaptainAhab13

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#51 CaptainAhab13
Member since 2010 • 5121 Posts
[QUOTE="musicalmac"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]

cuz its unanswerable

ghoklebutter
Of course it's unanswerable, but it's still a vaible discussion topic. It's not like we're discussing the philosophy of how raspberrie's feel before they're plucked and eaten.

I don't mean to say that this question should always be ignored. I just think that its answer doesn't concern me in the least. Regarding existence, I am comfortable with "I think; therefore, I am."

Ah, so a follower of Descartes. Interesting. :D If you are ever interested enough, you should read up on his thesis that he wrote coming to that conclusion. It's absolutely fascinating.
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CaptainAhab13

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#52 CaptainAhab13
Member since 2010 • 5121 Posts

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nothingness/#WhyTheSomRatThaNot

For any of you interested enough in this topic, here's a good article on the Stanford philosophy website.

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ghoklebutter

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#53 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

That Stanford website is awesome. I've spend hours reading articles there. :V

Ah, so a follower of Descartes. Interesting. :D If you are ever interested enough, you should read up on his thesis that he wrote coming to that conclusion. It's absolutely fascinating.CaptainAhab13
I'm taking a philosophy course next semester, so perhaps I'll learn a bit more about Cartesianism.

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BossPerson

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#54 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

That Stanford website is awesome. I've spend hours reading articles there. :V

[QUOTE="CaptainAhab13"]Ah, so a follower of Descartes. Interesting. :D If you are ever interested enough, you should read up on his thesis that he wrote coming to that conclusion. It's absolutely fascinating.ghoklebutter

I'm taking a philosophy course next semester, so perhaps I'll learn a bit more about Cartesianism.

just watch the matrix...

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Frame_Dragger

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#55 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]ehh, no.

I agree with you, but this is an area where the religious view is frankly as useful as any other. There's no refuting it, and no supporting it. Note: I don't personally believe it, but... you know... I have no alternative to offer. Even if you get deeply into M-Theory, at some point you either run into nothingness, or infinite expanses of something eternally interacting. As humans, we're just not capable of considering that, and I think the religious view is much more appealing... depending on only one unecessarily multiplied entity.

yea but i dont think the answer to the deepest mysteries in the universe lie with a 2000 year old carpenter (who was a nice guy no doubt) or a theistic god who watches over us and such. Maybe there is a God, but i doubt he would be like anything written in any book. Also, i could even go beyond God in this question and ask "what was before God"? or "what is beyond God" and such...

I agree with you, but I can't offer a meaningful alternative either.

@Overlord93: That we observe at all says we interact with the observed entities. If I see a coin, it's a matter of EM radiation reach my eyes and setting off a series of chemical and electrical responses which reach my brain. That the coin is composed of smaller... pieces... the sum of which is not the ubiquitous mass I think I see doesn't make it less real. What you're calling empty space is a region dominated by a number of forces and filled with uncertainty... it isnn't "nothing".
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cprmauldin

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#56 cprmauldin
Member since 2009 • 1567 Posts

The concept of "nothing" only exists because of the fact that there is "something".

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Frame_Dragger

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#57 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts

The concept of "nothing" only exists because of the fact that there is "something".

cprmauldin
Concepts require people (unless you believe in other intelligent life), so yeah... very taoist too. Still, in the absence of something, there would be nothing, and while language fails at this point, it could ONLY (not) exist in the absence of an observer. Absence can only be defined by contrast with presence, but that doesn't change that absence can still be.
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branketra

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#58 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"]Is that really a philosophical question? Don't you think that would be more mathematical or scientific?mindstorm

Perhaps even religious given the perspective of the individual.

In my case, I simply respond with one word: Jesus.

This passage explains why I say such

I see. So the Christian belief is that everything was made for God and by Him. Interesting idea.
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xdude85

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#59 xdude85
Member since 2006 • 6559 Posts
Yet... nothing can come out of something.
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branketra

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#60 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"]Is that really a philosophical question? Don't you think that would be more mathematical or scientific?Frame_Dragger
It's a purely philosophical/metaphysical/religious question at this time, and probably always will be. Science is by definition an exploration of nature at every level, but it doesn't posit why there IS something to explore. Science ultimately explains HOW... any "why" question in science boils down to a series of "how's". This is a question of WHY... and that's not something science even attempts to address... it's not open to empirical analysis, experimentation, or any other tenant of the scientific method.

I suppose that's true, but depending on how the question and how it gets asked, the "how" and "why" are interchangeable. The answers may be a bit different, but they're basically the same thing.

Example:

"How did I find Gamespot?" Answer: I accidentally type in "gamespot.com" instead of "gamestop.com"

"Why did I find Gamespot?" Answer: It was an accident. I wasn't searching for it.

Although, I suppose you could go the philosophical route with the "why" example if you really wanted to.

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Frame_Dragger

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#61 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="BranKetra"]Is that really a philosophical question? Don't you think that would be more mathematical or scientific?BranKetra
It's a purely philosophical/metaphysical/religious question at this time, and probably always will be. Science is by definition an exploration of nature at every level, but it doesn't posit why there IS something to explore. Science ultimately explains HOW... any "why" question in science boils down to a series of "how's". This is a question of WHY... and that's not something science even attempts to address... it's not open to empirical analysis, experimentation, or any other tenant of the scientific method.

I suppose that's true, but depending on how the question and how it gets asked, the "how" and "why" are interchangeable. The answers may be a bit different, but they're basically the same thing. Example: "How did I find Gamespot?" Answer: I accidentally type in "gamespot.com" instead of "gamestop.com" "Why did I find Gamespot?" Answer: It was an accident. I wasn't searching for it. Although, I suppose you could go the philosophical route with the "why" example if you really wanted to.

The difference is that science has to be able to ultimately reduce something to a testable hypothesis. Why did you search implies motives, which could be studied, but can also be taken to the irreducables like, "why am I here at all?" How can be reduced only so far, to matters of biology, then physics, information theory, etc.

In short, you can ultimately rephrase any "WHY" as a "HOW" in physics or science... and if you can't.... it's not science. "What is the speed of light in a vacuum? Answer: 'c', or about 667 million mph. "Why is that the speed of light in a vaccuum?" Answer: No clue... it's a physical constant that, like the mass of the proton simply IS. When people talk about "laws of physics", it's these physical constants they're referring to, for the most part.
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Frame_Dragger

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#62 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
Yet... nothing can come out of something.xdude85
Not in this universe... nothing would have to be atemporal and aspatial... and that would be outside of a universe.
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the_plan_man

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#63 the_plan_man
Member since 2011 • 1664 Posts
No one knows. /thread. Which is why people bashing any kind of thought as to how "something" got here is beyond ridiculous.
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branketra

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#64 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] It's a purely philosophical/metaphysical/religious question at this time, and probably always will be. Science is by definition an exploration of nature at every level, but it doesn't posit why there IS something to explore. Science ultimately explains HOW... any "why" question in science boils down to a series of "how's". This is a question of WHY... and that's not something science even attempts to address... it's not open to empirical analysis, experimentation, or any other tenant of the scientific method.Frame_Dragger
I suppose that's true, but depending on how the question and how it gets asked, the "how" and "why" are interchangeable. The answers may be a bit different, but they're basically the same thing. Example: "How did I find Gamespot?" Answer: I accidentally type in "gamespot.com" instead of "gamestop.com" "Why did I find Gamespot?" Answer: It was an accident. I wasn't searching for it. Although, I suppose you could go the philosophical route with the "why" example if you really wanted to.

The difference is that science has to be able to ultimately reduce something to a testable hypothesis. Why did you search implies motives, which could be studied, but can also be taken to the irreducables like, "why am I here at all?" How can be reduced only so far, to matters of biology, then physics, information theory, etc.

In short, you can ultimately rephrase any "WHY" as a "HOW" in physics or science... and if you can't.... it's not science. "What is the speed of light in a vacuum? Answer: 'c', or about 667 million mph. "Why is that the speed of light in a vaccuum?" Answer: No clue... it's a physical constant that, like the mass of the proton simply IS. When people talk about "laws of physics", it's these physical constants they're referring to, for the most part.

I get your point, but speaking of the speed of light, I heard research at CERN may have found something interesting. I remember hearing about scientists at CERN reporting that the speed of light may have been broken. It was reported in September and again in early November. A little later that month it was said to have been disproven. So, I guess this means the speed of light is still considered a physical constant. Anyway, a "vacuum" is an interesting way to describe outer space, especially given the recent theory of dark matter.
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KiIIyou

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#65 KiIIyou
Member since 2006 • 27204 Posts
It's like buying a picture frame, always got someone in there.
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Ghost_702

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#66 Ghost_702
Member since 2006 • 7405 Posts
That's deep man. Like why is there a universe instead of nothing? What was before time itself? What is after death? Deep thoughts.
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tocool340

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#67 tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21694 Posts

...I can't really wrap my head around the answer, well...my opinion, but I know its up there. I'll try anyways...

That question is....damn it! I can't make a complete thought out of my answer....:x

I will just say that question shows the limitation of the human language or that human nature just can't cope with the word "nothing". We can't just accept that something was created by nothing due to its definition. Not quite what I want to say, but it will do...

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Sunfyre7896

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#68 Sunfyre7896
Member since 2011 • 1644 Posts

Because the big bang happened, which some believe to be the work of God that created everything. Even believing the big bang Not the work of God, it could have easily not have 'banged' and would still be a super dense ball of mass. Then there would be almost all of nothing but empty space and philosophy wouldn't have the ambiguous questions that it does.

Outside of that, I agree with an earlier post that there could as easily have been nothing but that goes against my beliefs so I'll stop there.

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Frame_Dragger

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#69 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
[QUOTE="Sunfyre7896"]

Because the big bang happened, which some believe to be the work of God that created everything. Even believing the big bang Not the work of God, it could have easily not have 'banged' and would still be a super dense ball of mass. Then there would be almost all of nothing but empty space and philosophy wouldn't have the ambiguous questions that it does.

Outside of that, I agree with an earlier post that there could as easily have been nothing but that goes against my beliefs so I'll stop there.

The thing is, there wouldn't be empty space, because space was IN that ball too. If the BB event occurred in the midst of nothing, there would be no space or time either, no degrees of freedom, no dimensionaltiy... nothing.
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JayK-Rolling

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#70 JayK-Rolling
Member since 2011 • 59 Posts
Because it means everything... yet it means nothing.
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Frame_Dragger

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#71 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
Because it means everything... yet it means nothing.JayK-Rolling
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deactivated-5b19214ec908b

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#72 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

So you where celebrating finishing your finals and then started talking about philosophy? What I think you mean is that you all smoked some joints to celebrate and then started talking about philosophy, makes much more sense that way.

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Cheesehead9099

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#73 Cheesehead9099
Member since 2008 • 2849 Posts

Cause like...that's just how it is, man.

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CaptainAhab13

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#74 CaptainAhab13
Member since 2010 • 5121 Posts

So you where celebrating finishing your finals and then started talking about philosophy? What I think you mean is that you all smoked some joints to celebrate and then started talking about philosophy, makes much more sense that way.

toast_burner
Sorry to burst your fantasy, but I'm not old enough to drink, and neither my friend nor I do any form of drugs. We like discussing philosophy and deep questions regarding the metaphysical and ultimately uncertain. Would you really like to know what we did? 1. Finals got out, woohoo! We're done! Time for some ice cream! :) 2. A group of us went over to my friend's to chill and discussed deep, philosophical questions for hours, well into the evening from around 1:00 in the afternoon. Pizza, soda, philosophy -- what more could one want? :cool: 3. During these discussions, we listened to everything from Bohemian Rhapsody to The Brandenburg Concertos. 4. After these discussions, we went to our respective households and began enjoying our break that we have definitely earned through lots of academic grinding and hard work. I posted on GameSpot, then went to play RuneScape and Quake Live. No drugs nor drinking involved. :)
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CaptainAhab13

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#75 CaptainAhab13
Member since 2010 • 5121 Posts
[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="Sunfyre7896"]

Because the big bang happened, which some believe to be the work of God that created everything. Even believing the big bang Not the work of God, it could have easily not have 'banged' and would still be a super dense ball of mass. Then there would be almost all of nothing but empty space and philosophy wouldn't have the ambiguous questions that it does.

Outside of that, I agree with an earlier post that there could as easily have been nothing but that goes against my beliefs so I'll stop there.

The thing is, there wouldn't be empty space, because space was IN that ball too. If the BB event occurred in the midst of nothing, there would be no space or time either, no degrees of freedom, no dimensionaltiy... nothing.

The limits of the universe come into question. Is it infinite, or finite, and how would this affect one's take on the concept of something over nothingness? Is existence even possible with the concept of nothingness as a reality? What would nothingness even constitute? Merely the absence of "something?" I feel that that idea falls flat, however, due to the fact that we as humans even constitute nothing as something. That nothing is, indeed, something -- we just can't define it within the limits of our current state of knowledge or language (or a combination of both). The absence of "something" could very well be what we define as "nothing." It's like if someone defined "nothing" as transparency -- color would eventually have to exist sooner or later in human vision. That nothingness could be defined as far and as long as the human takes to witness some form of color, or depth.
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_R34LiTY_

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#76 _R34LiTY_
Member since 2008 • 3331 Posts

because Nothing realized that it in fact could be Something and eventually manifested itself into not just something, but Everything !!!

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CaptainAhab13

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#77 CaptainAhab13
Member since 2010 • 5121 Posts

because Nothing realized that it in fact could be Something and eventually manifested itself into not just something, but Everything !!!

_R34LiTY_
This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody got angry, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized Everybody wouldn't do it. So Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done. :)
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MirkoS77

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#78 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17968 Posts

You have to have something to define nothing. Or something like that....

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#79 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
Because if there was nothing, there would be no one to ask the question. HERP DERP
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Elraptor

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#80 Elraptor
Member since 2004 • 30966 Posts
Is it a question susceptible of an answer? Why must there be an explanation?
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_R34LiTY_

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#81 _R34LiTY_
Member since 2008 • 3331 Posts

[QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

because Nothing realized that it in fact could be Something and eventually manifested itself into not just something, but Everything !!!

CaptainAhab13

This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody got angry, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized Everybody wouldn't do it. So Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done. :)

I could've done it!! :) but Nobody asked :evil:

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Frame_Dragger

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#82 Frame_Dragger
Member since 2009 • 9581 Posts
[QUOTE="CaptainAhab13"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="Sunfyre7896"]

Because the big bang happened, which some believe to be the work of God that created everything. Even believing the big bang Not the work of God, it could have easily not have 'banged' and would still be a super dense ball of mass. Then there would be almost all of nothing but empty space and philosophy wouldn't have the ambiguous questions that it does.

Outside of that, I agree with an earlier post that there could as easily have been nothing but that goes against my beliefs so I'll stop there.

The thing is, there wouldn't be empty space, because space was IN that ball too. If the BB event occurred in the midst of nothing, there would be no space or time either, no degrees of freedom, no dimensionaltiy... nothing.

The limits of the universe come into question. Is it infinite, or finite, and how would this affect one's take on the concept of something over nothingness? Is existence even possible with the concept of nothingness as a reality? What would nothingness even constitute? Merely the absence of "something?" I feel that that idea falls flat, however, due to the fact that we as humans even constitute nothing as something. That nothing is, indeed, something -- we just can't define it within the limits of our current state of knowledge or language (or a combination of both). The absence of "something" could very well be what we define as "nothing." It's like if someone defined "nothing" as transparency -- color would eventually have to exist sooner or later in human vision. That nothingness could be defined as far and as long as the human takes to witness some form of color, or depth.

This was recently discussed, and of course in an infinite universe you'd have space and time everywhere, so... there would be an absence of "nothingness". If the universe is in fact, bounded and finite, that brings us crashing to a halt because it's not correct to say, "outside of the universe". It's just not possible to express in words, then notion that the universe is a closed system and that's ALL there is... nothing else... no space it resides in. Remember, the conept of distance and volume that would be an "infinite nothing"... wouldn't exist outside of the universe either. In that model, where there is ONLY one finite, bounded universe, there is also no such thing as nothingness unless you choose to define it as something... and then it's no longer nothing. *headache*.

To be blunt, from the point of view of physics... nothing is as good as infinities... it's a way of knowing you screwed up in a calculation. After all, if you have multiple universes, there is SOME medium between them (analogous to space)... some background. In the universe, this is defined as 3+1 dimensions, but nothingness would have no dimensions, no volume, no degress of freedom. So... if you have universes seperated in any way, there cannot BE nothingness in the midst of that seperation, because that would require it to have some kind of dimensionality, and once again, it wouldn't be nothing.

Frankly, it's a concept of philosophy and metaphysics... maybe religion... and it makes my head hurt.
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mindstorm

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#83 mindstorm
Member since 2003 • 15255 Posts

[QUOTE="mindstorm"] Perhaps even religious given the perspective of the individual.

In my case, I simply respond with one word: Jesus.

This passage explains why I say such

Nicksonman

This doesn't serve as an explanation for me at all. However, assuming it were true, it doesn't answer the question "Why is there God, rather than nothing?"

It does answer the question if it was Jesus who created time itself which could be included in the "invisible" things created by Jesus as explained in the text. In other words, how is it possible for a being who exists outside of time to have a beginning. Time has no bounds or authority above its very creator.

There is a reason why God refers to himself as "I AM that I AM" in Exodus 3:14 and in Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, . . . who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." How can such a timeless being have a beginning or cause for existence beyond himself?

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branketra

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#84 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

Is it a question susceptible of an answer? Why must there be an explanation?Elraptor
Why not? That could be like telling a farmer there's no point in knowing where chickens come from.

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sonofsmeagle

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#85 sonofsmeagle
Member since 2010 • 4317 Posts

well for you to be asking tat question then there has to be something

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ColdExistence

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#86 ColdExistence
Member since 2011 • 974 Posts
This question has no answer.
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nicksonman

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#87 nicksonman
Member since 2009 • 1221 Posts

[QUOTE="Nicksonman"][QUOTE="mindstorm"] Perhaps even religious given the perspective of the individual.

In my case, I simply respond with one word: Jesus.

This passage explains why I say such

mindstorm

This doesn't serve as an explanation for me at all. However, assuming it were true, it doesn't answer the question "Why is there God, rather than nothing?"

It does answer the question if it was Jesus who created time itself which could be included in the "invisible" things created by Jesus as explained in the text. In other words, how is it possible for a being who exists outside of time to have a beginning. Time has no bounds or authority above its very creator.

There is a reason why God refers to himself as "I AM that I AM" in Exodus 3:14 and in Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, . . . who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." How can such a timeless being have a beginning or cause for existence beyond himself?



That's the thing. Your answer to "Who created God?" is "God is the alpha and omega, He always was and always will be". How can this be considered a good answer? I'm not trying to offend you, but it sounds to me like someone just made it up.

Again, let's assume it's all true, that God is infinite and Jesus created time, wouldn't you be disappointed with this? It just seems like an anti-climax, that we have this massive, expansive universe with so many things going on inside, and it all boils down to some infinite being and his time-creating son. If this was the explanation for that "something" I'd probably want to kill myself. Thankfully, I don't believe this is the case.