Why Kosovo should not be independent

I shall give you only one example of a scenario like Kosovos.

Imagine if California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona became predominantly Mexican. But these are illegals, let's say, just like the Albanians in Kosovo are illegal. Now let's say the Mexicans decide to make their own government, flag, and maybe even currency, and say that those states secede and make the....I don't know...United Mexican States of America. Would the U.S. let that slide? Would they say "Ohh you go ahead and grab 20% of our landmass, go ahead."

No they wouldn't.

So what makes this scenario any different than Kosovo? It isn't. Simply that. Take it from a person whose mother is from there, whose family died there. Thanks for reading.

I shall give you only one example of a scenario like Kosovos.

Imagine if California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona became predominantly Mexican. But these are illegals, let's say, just like the Albanians in Kosovo are illegal. Now let's say the Mexicans decide to make their own government, flag, and maybe even currency, and say that those states secede and make the....I don't know...United Mexican States of America. Would the U.S. let that slide? Would they say "Ohh you go ahead and grab 20% of our landmass, go ahead."

No they wouldn't.

So what makes this scenario any different than Kosovo? It isn't. Simply that. Take it from a person whose mother is from there, whose family died there. Thanks for reading.

Shadow_op

You are factually wrong. What makes you say the Albanians in Kosovo are "illegal"? Even the Serbian government does not use this argument. It's simply ridiculous. Kosovo is made up of 95% Albanians. 95%!!! They have been there for hundreds upon hundreds of years. This has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration. I can only assume that you're a Serbian nationalist, who ignores certain facts (as Serbia has often done) to advance his own nationalistic agenda.

Kosovo is finally independant, and there's nothing Serbian nationalists can do now. So go cry to Putin.....

You know, between your reservations and an end to the crushing of Albanian culture and lives through silent genocide, I'll favor the Albanian's perspective. Albanians have been in Kosovo since at least the 19th century, so please don't give me this "illegal immigrant" comparison crap.

After everything Serbia has done to the albanian people you should be glad they are only trying for 20% because I think they would be justified in taking a full half. Albanians have been a majority population in Kosovo since before Serbia even declared independence.

You know, between your reservations and an end to the crushing of Albanian culture and lives through silent genocide, I'll favor the Albanian's perspective. Albanians have been in Kosovo since at least the 19th century, so please don't give me this "illegal immigrant" comparison crap.

After everything Serbia has done to the albanian people you should be glad they are only trying for 20% because I think they would be justified in taking a full half.

Aidenfury19

Like when Texas became part of the US? jaydough

You know, Kosovo probably would have been better of handling it that way instead of waiting 40 years under oppression. But Texas did have some freaking crazy mother****ers who fought for us, I'm not sure Kosovo had anybody quite like Jim Bowie.

A bit late to the party man.

EDIT: Hell, I slowly drifted out of the Kosovo thing, what's going on right now? They still bickering over whether they should be independent or not?

You know NOTHING about what you are talking about, kid.

That region has THOUSANDS of years of ethnic hatred and tension between them. It was never meant to be united in the way that Tito forced it to be. Hundreds of years ago it was little more than a collection of city states and minute nations all at war with each other, constantly. It didn't breed a loving and brotherly environment.

There are slavs in that region who would rather mow down their neighbour with an assault rifle than let his son marry their daughter.

There is so much history in that area, comparing it to the different states in America is so far from a worthy comparison it isn't even funny.

[QUOTE="Shadow_op"]

I shall give you only one example of a scenario like Kosovos.

Imagine if California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona became predominantly Mexican. But these are illegals, let's say, just like the Albanians in Kosovo are illegal. Now let's say the Mexicans decide to make their own government, flag, and maybe even currency, and say that those states secede and make the....I don't know...United Mexican States of America. Would the U.S. let that slide? Would they say "Ohh you go ahead and grab 20% of our landmass, go ahead."

No they wouldn't.

So what makes this scenario any different than Kosovo? It isn't. Simply that. Take it from a person whose mother is from there, whose family died there. Thanks for reading.

streak000

You are factually wrong. What makes you say the Albanians in Kosovo are "illegal"? Even the Serbian government does not use this argument. It's simply ridiculous. Kosovo is made up of 95% Albanians. 95%!!! They have been there for hundreds upon hundreds of years. This has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration. I can only assume that you're a Serbian nationalist, who ignores certain facts (as Serbia has often done) to advance his own nationalistic agenda.

Kosovo is finally independant, and there's nothing Serbian nationalists can do now. So go cry to Putin.....

We have some churches that are 1,000 years old. With Kosovo Independent, we would have two albanian countries. The illegal albanians were all refugees. Ask your grandparents and you'll see. And as for my mexican example, it's just an example. I love mexicans :P

It's that simple huh?

How are the people who live in Kosovo illegals? and I don't recall the the US Military being sent in to do any "ethnic cleansing" to the horror of the rest of the world in those states anytime recently....

Since when was Albanians illegal immigrants? They have always been the majority and the Serbs that oppress them were the minorities, but they had the weapons and suppport. The Albanians were deprived of the basic needs to defend themselves.

Since when was Albanians illegal immigrants? They have always been the majority and the Serbs that oppress them were the minorities, but they had the weapons and suppport. The Albanians were deprived of the basic needs to defend themselves.

Napster06

The albanians were a minority in Serbia...

You know, between your reservations and an end to the crushing of Albanian culture and lives through silent genocide, I'll favor the Albanian's perspective. Albanians have been in Kosovo since at least the 19th century, so please don't give me this "illegal immigrant" comparison crap.

After everything Serbia has done to the albanian people you should be glad they are only trying for 20% because I think they would be justified in taking a full half. Albanians have been a majority population in Kosovo since before Serbia even declared independence.

Aidenfury19

So they are the majority, but that doesn't give them the right to declare Kosovo's independence.

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

I think it shouldn't be sorted out on a forum...it's for those that live there.

I think people who compare regions like Kosovo to states (you are not the first) don't really understand how states work, so just stop.blackngold29

Hmm, I'm curious...what're the main differences?

[QUOTE="blackngold29"]I think people who compare regions like Kosovo to states (you are not the first) don't really understand how states work, so just stop.jointed

Hmm, I'm curious...what're the main differences?

Kosovo is part of a centralized government.

[QUOTE="blackngold29"]I think people who compare regions like Kosovo to states (you are not the first) don't really understand how states work, so just stop.jointed

Hmm, I'm curious...what're the main differences?

[QUOTE="jointed"]

[QUOTE="blackngold29"]I think people who compare regions like Kosovo to states (you are not the first) don't really understand how states work, so just stop.blackngold29

Hmm, I'm curious...what're the main differences?

The local government is pretty much the federal government when it comes to Serbia, though.

[QUOTE="jointed"]

[QUOTE="blackngold29"]I think people who compare regions like Kosovo to states (you are not the first) don't really understand how states work, so just stop.The_Ish

Hmm, I'm curious...what're the main differences?

Kosovo is part of a centralized government.

I see, but wasn't Kosovo under UNMIK authority?

[QUOTE="blackngold29"][QUOTE="jointed"]

[QUOTE="blackngold29"]I think people who compare regions like Kosovo to states (you are not the first) don't really understand how states work, so just stop.The_Ish

Hmm, I'm curious...what're the main differences?

The local government is pretty much the federal government when it comes to Serbia, though.

[QUOTE="blackngold29"]I think people who compare regions like Kosovo to states (you are not the first) don't really understand how states work, so just stop.jointed

Hmm, I'm curious...what're the main differences?

The lack of recent "ethnic cleansing" for one.

I see, but wasn't Kosovo under UNMIK authority?

jointed

True, but the purpose of UNMIK, if I remember correctly, was to allow Kosovo to rebuild and relieve. It wasn't supposed to allow Kosovo to actually secede.

[QUOTE="jointed"]

I see, but wasn't Kosovo under UNMIK authority?

The_Ish

True, but the purpose of UNMIK, if I remember correctly, was to allow Kosovo to rebuild and relieve. It wasn't supposed to allow Kosovo to actually secede.

As I understand the resolution was vague because nobody wanted to address the issue at the time and it wouldn't have passed had they picked one or the other. They're under their authority but the resolution never says Kosovo gets to succeed, or that it must remain under one nation with Serbia. I'm not sure dumping them back in to Serbian or letting them succed really works out pratically or legally either way.

I was at a World Vision conference last week and there was a girl there who had been nominated at the age of 16 in 2005 for the nobel peace award.

She was from Kosovo and was an activist in the wars there at a very young age (about 11/12 years old), and when we tried asking her which side she was born on she was very adament with her answer of being born in Kosovo, even though it had only been established a week prior.

From what I could understand from her, being independent and lacking a lot of ressources and being able to fight for that independence, was far better than being stuck between a war of two sides that they didn't feel they were a part of.

The battle is far from over but they do feel like they have more freedom now and that the things they're fighting for or the things they want, not just for their lives, but for their freedom.

So, I don't live there, it doesn't effect me, if they want it, they should have the right to their independence...I don't think we really have the right to dictate anything because we don't know what it's like being there.

The main problem faced with the independence is that many family's lost members (she had lost a brother and sister) during the war, and now that the borders are going up, they might never find them again...but finding them during times of heavy violence wasn't an option either

Kosovo became independent illegally, so they automatically don't get my support.Ilived

How is having an unbiased public referendum illegal?

Its the same thing with secession movements in Nepal, Quebec, Chechnya, and Taiwan. Once one secession is granted what is to stop granting all other requests?Jocubus

What secession? Taiwan hasnt been formally a part of China since 1895.

It's unfortunate that a lot of seemingly neutral people here seem to have fallen for Serbian and Russian propaganda. Kosovo Albanians have long been discriminated against by the Serbian government in favour of the Serbian minority.

In 1998 (or around then), Serbia attacked Kosovo, and carried out what could be only be described as genocide against Kosovo Albanians. This was soon after Serbia's genocidal wars against Croatia, Bosnia, and their unsuccessful invasion of Slovenia. Anyone who does a bit of unbiased research on the Balkans in the 90s will realise that Serbia was the aggressor (or the chief supporter of local Serbian war criminals) in all these cases. Is it really surprising that Kosovo wanted independence from such a thuggish, and (to them) hateful nation?

I, for one, support Kosovo's independence wholeheartedly. Serbia gets absolutely no sympathy from me......

Kosovo became independent illegally, so they automatically don't get my support.Ilived

They held a referendum, dood.

Like when Texas became part of the US? jaydough

That actually seems like a pretty good analogy. :P

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

gs_gear

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That would give them the right, would you protest the right of those behind the Iron Curtain to declare their independence from the Soviet Union? How about the right of the Kurds, a perpetually oppressed people in Turkey from declaring their independence, would you try to stop that? How about the very Serbians who overthrew the Ottoman Empire and repelled them from their lands a couple of hundred years ago?

There are rights that are greater than borders, rights such as the right to protect one's family and people from attempts at their destruction, something which has gone on in Kosovo for decades now against the Albanians there. It is a credit to the Albanian people that they did not declare independence earlier and more violently. They have my full support in this.

[QUOTE="gs_gear"]

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

Aidenfury19

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That would give them the right, would you protest the right of those behind the Iron Curtain to declare their independence from the Soviet Union? How about the right of the Kurds, a perpetually oppressed people in Turkey from declaring their independence, would you try to stop that? How about the very Serbians who overthrew the Ottoman Empire and repelled them from their lands a couple of hundred years ago?

There are rights that are greater than borders, rights such as the right to protect one's family and people from attempts at their destruction, something which has gone on in Kosovo for decades now against the Albanians there. It is a credit to the Albanian people that they did not declare independence earlier and more violently. They have my full support in this.

[QUOTE="gs_gear"]

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

Aidenfury19

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That would give them the right, would you protest the right of those behind the Iron Curtain to declare their independence from the Soviet Union? How about the right of the Kurds, a perpetually oppressed people in Turkey from declaring their independence, would you try to stop that? How about the very Serbians who overthrew the Ottoman Empire and repelled them from their lands a couple of hundred years ago?

There are rights that are greater than borders, rights such as the right to protect one's family and people from attempts at their destruction, something which has gone on in Kosovo for decades now against the Albanians there. It is a credit to the Albanian people that they did not declare independence earlier and more violently. They have my full support in this.

There is already a law that doesn't allow US states from seceding, I believe. Ethics or not, this really falls to the legality of a secession, and whether or not other nations that have secessionist organizations should support them. Of course they have the right to have better lives, thats what UNMIK is for. They don't however, have the right to take Serbian land.

[QUOTE="gs_gear"]

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

Aidenfury19

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That would give them the right, would you protest the right of those behind the Iron Curtain to declare their independence from the Soviet Union? How about the right of the Kurds, a perpetually oppressed people in Turkey from declaring their independence, would you try to stop that? How about the very Serbians who overthrew the Ottoman Empire and repelled them from their lands a couple of hundred years ago?

There are rights that are greater than borders, rights such as the right to protect one's family and people from attempts at their destruction, something which has gone on in Kosovo for decades now against the Albanians there. It is a credit to the Albanian people that they did not declare independence earlier and more violently. They have my full support in this.

Well stated. People can make legal arguments all they want but that doesn't make it right or even pratical to tell those people Ok when the UN leaves you're back under the controll of people who tried to kill you all. Good luck with that!

I shall give you only one example of a scenario like Kosovos.

Imagine if California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona became predominantly Mexican. But these are illegals, let's say, just like the Albanians in Kosovo are illegal. Now let's say the Mexicans decide to make their own government, flag, and maybe even currency, and say that those states secede and make the....I don't know...United Mexican States of America. Would the U.S. let that slide? Would they say "Ohh you go ahead and grab 20% of our landmass, go ahead."

No they wouldn't.

So what makes this scenario any different than Kosovo? It isn't. Simply that. Take it from a person whose mother is from there, whose family died there. Thanks for reading.

Shadow_op

Do you have any clue what you talking about? Albanians go back in Kosovo a very long time, yes there was lots of Serbs killed during the war but the Serbs cant say much themselves can they?

you know you could have used the civil war as an example and not put down mexicans. If they want to be a country they should besmallcaplegend

well, he's talking about current issues on illegal immigrants. not against mexicans, personally. but i have a problem with most of the people's attitudes these days towards them.

i just don't see how the rest of the people in the world are supposed to line up/get visa's/get papers and other stuff just so they can go to america and live there. i've heard from some relatives it took them 10 YEARS in order to be granted access to USA and live there permanently. and then these immigrants, they just enter america like it's their own backyard and expect to be treated as legal citizens. i've met some of these types of people online.

let's put it this way. UNCLE Sam (look at him as an individual please) has a house. now we see UNCLE MARIO entering sam's house illegally, and then he tells uncle sam, "hey, dude. i like this 1/4 part of your house. im taking it for free, it's all mine now coz i said so, thanks!" while the rest of the people outside the house wait to get IN, MARIO takes what isn't even his in the first place.

i agree TC.