Why Kosovo should not be independent

[QUOTE="smallcaplegend"]you know you could have used the civil war as an example and not put down mexicans. If they want to be a country they should berowzzr

well, he's talking about current issues on illegal immigrants. not against mexicans, personally. but i have a problem with most of the people's attitudes these days towards them.

i just don't see how the rest of the people in the world are supposed to line up/get visa's/get papers and other stuff just so they can go to america and live there. i've heard from some relatives it took them 10 YEARS in order to be granted access to USA and live there permanently. and then these immigrants, they just enter america like it's their own backyard and expect to be treated as legal citizens. i've met some of these types of people online.

let's put it this way. UNCLE Sam (look at him as an individual please) has a house. now we see UNCLE MARIO entering sam's house illegally, and then he tells uncle sam, "hey, dude. i like this 1/4 part of your house. im taking it for free, it's all mine now coz i said so, thanks!" while the rest of the people outside the house wait to get IN, MARIO takes what isn't even his in the first place.

i agree TC.

What most people here dont know is that the albanians in Kosovo were a minority a big minority about 50 years ago.

But Albanians are breeding like rabbits and have enormus families parts of which would come from albania to kosovo,and they soon became larger in numbers than serbs and other ethnicalities there.While that teritory in reality was part of Serbia since before 10th century.

This so called independence is nothing more than conquest as a poster before has said,Albania just got bigger and peacefuly annexed Kosovo,dont be surprised if in the few years Kosovo becomes a part of Albania,ofcourse if the serbs dont do something and stop this illegal separation which like the TC stated gives an dangerous precedant to all the separatist in the world!

Sorry for grammar mistakes :)

[QUOTE="gs_gear"]

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

Aidenfury19

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That would give them the right, would you protest the right of those behind the Iron Curtain to declare their independence from the Soviet Union? How about the right of the Kurds, a perpetually oppressed people in Turkey from declaring their independence, would you try to stop that? How about the very Serbians who overthrew the Ottoman Empire and repelled them from their lands a couple of hundred years ago?

There are rights that are greater than borders, rights such as the right to protect one's family and people from attempts at their destruction, something which has gone on in Kosovo for decades now against the Albanians there. It is a credit to the Albanian people that they did not declare independence earlier and more violently. They have my full support in this.

Kosovo has always been part of Serbia. This isn't about a land that belonged to the Albanians and was occupied by force by Serbs or something. Albanians have a country.

Wow, your logic amazes me.:| So then against the Ottoman Empire it was ok to fight for their land but now the Serbs should just give up on their land willingly.

Yes they have these rights, but I don't think they have the right to declare the independence of a region of a country because they are the majority there.

Now about OP's example: if the Mexicans become the majority in a state and want to the declare the independence and secede from the U.S. (violently or not) would you give them your full support also?

[QUOTE="Aidenfury19"][QUOTE="gs_gear"]

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

gs_gear

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That would give them the right, would you protest the right of those behind the Iron Curtain to declare their independence from the Soviet Union? How about the right of the Kurds, a perpetually oppressed people in Turkey from declaring their independence, would you try to stop that? How about the very Serbians who overthrew the Ottoman Empire and repelled them from their lands a couple of hundred years ago?

There are rights that are greater than borders, rights such as the right to protect one's family and people from attempts at their destruction, something which has gone on in Kosovo for decades now against the Albanians there. It is a credit to the Albanian people that they did not declare independence earlier and more violently. They have my full support in this.

Kosovo has always been part of Serbia. This isn't about a land that belonged to the Albanians and was occupied by force by Serbs or something. Albanians have a country.

Wow, your logic amazes me.:| So then against the Ottoman Empire it was ok to fight for their land but now the Serbs should just give up on their land willingly.

Yes they have these rights, but I don't think they have the right to declare the independence of a region of a country because they are the majority there.

Now about OP's example: if the Mexicans become the majority in a state and want to the declare the independence and secede from the U.S. (violently or not) would you give them your full support also?

[QUOTE="gs_gear"][QUOTE="Aidenfury19"][QUOTE="gs_gear"]

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

shivaskunk9mm

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That would give them the right, would you protest the right of those behind the Iron Curtain to declare their independence from the Soviet Union? How about the right of the Kurds, a perpetually oppressed people in Turkey from declaring their independence, would you try to stop that? How about the very Serbians who overthrew the Ottoman Empire and repelled them from their lands a couple of hundred years ago?

There are rights that are greater than borders, rights such as the right to protect one's family and people from attempts at their destruction, something which has gone on in Kosovo for decades now against the Albanians there. It is a credit to the Albanian people that they did not declare independence earlier and more violently. They have my full support in this.

Kosovo has always been part of Serbia. This isn't about a land that belonged to the Albanians and was occupied by force by Serbs or something. Albanians have a country.

Wow, your logic amazes me.:| So then against the Ottoman Empire it was ok to fight for their land but now the Serbs should just give up on their land willingly.

Yes they have these rights, but I don't think they have the right to declare the independence of a region of a country because they are the majority there.

Now about OP's example: if the Mexicans become the majority in a state and want to the declare the independence and secede from the U.S. (violently or not) would you give them your full support also?

And you would support the independence of California if the Canadians did that or do you mean in a different way?

[QUOTE="shivaskunk9mm"][QUOTE="gs_gear"][QUOTE="Aidenfury19"][QUOTE="gs_gear"]

And it looks like some didn't get the point of his example. Yes he was wrong about calling them illegal immigrants, but just because you are legal immigrant in a country that still doesn't give you that right. He meant that if the Mexicans in Texas would become the majority in the state (even if they lived there legally and been there for a long time) that still wouldn't give them the right to declare the independence and secede from the U.S.

gs_gear

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That would give them the right, would you protest the right of those behind the Iron Curtain to declare their independence from the Soviet Union? How about the right of the Kurds, a perpetually oppressed people in Turkey from declaring their independence, would you try to stop that? How about the very Serbians who overthrew the Ottoman Empire and repelled them from their lands a couple of hundred years ago?

There are rights that are greater than borders, rights such as the right to protect one's family and people from attempts at their destruction, something which has gone on in Kosovo for decades now against the Albanians there. It is a credit to the Albanian people that they did not declare independence earlier and more violently. They have my full support in this.

Kosovo has always been part of Serbia. This isn't about a land that belonged to the Albanians and was occupied by force by Serbs or something. Albanians have a country.

Wow, your logic amazes me.:| So then against the Ottoman Empire it was ok to fight for their land but now the Serbs should just give up on their land willingly.

Yes they have these rights, but I don't think they have the right to declare the independence of a region of a country because they are the majority there.

Now about OP's example: if the Mexicans become the majority in a state and want to the declare the independence and secede from the U.S. (violently or not) would you give them your full support also?

And you would support the independence of California if the Canadians did that or do you mean in a different way?

Serbia is a crazy country - they're almost Nazi-like with their crazy nationalism.

Not to mention that whole ethnic cleansing thing from a couple years ago - I don't think that went over too well...

Kosovo has always been part of Serbia. This isn't about a land that belonged to the Albanians and was occupied by force by Serbs or something. Albanians have a country.

gs_gear

Considering that Serbia hasn't always existed and in fact in it's present form hasn't even been around a decade I find this unlikely.

With respect to the rest of your post, yes if the hispanic population of those states underwent the same sort of treatment as the native Albanians (who I should also mention acquired their land in Kosovo legally only to have it illegally taken away) then I would support their secession and I'm from Texas.

the op's example is actually not that comparable, because mexicans actually have some valid claim to good parts of the U.S west coast. i would without doubt support californian independence.shivaskunk9mm

Not really. One would have to be oversimplifying it, and ignoring large parts of history and how it came to be a part of the US if that was to be considered true.

Anyways, his analogy doesn't work because he is comparing Kosovo to a state, not who had it before.

[QUOTE="Shadow_op"]

I shall give you only one example of a scenario like Kosovos.

Imagine if California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona became predominantly Mexican. But these are illegals, let's say, just like the Albanians in Kosovo are illegal. Now let's say the Mexicans decide to make their own government, flag, and maybe even currency, and say that those states secede and make the....I don't know...United Mexican States of America. Would the U.S. let that slide? Would they say "Ohh you go ahead and grab 20% of our landmass, go ahead."

No they wouldn't.

So what makes this scenario any different than Kosovo? It isn't. Simply that. Take it from a person whose mother is from there, whose family died there. Thanks for reading.

streak000

You are factually wrong. What makes you say the Albanians in Kosovo are "illegal"? Even the Serbian government does not use this argument. It's simply ridiculous. Kosovo is made up of 95% Albanians. 95%!!! They have been there for hundreds upon hundreds of years. This has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration. I can only assume that you're a Serbian nationalist, who ignores certain facts (as Serbia has often done) to advance his own nationalistic agenda.

Kosovo is finally independant, and there's nothing Serbian nationalists can do now. So go cry to Putin.....

From your statement, the reason Kosovo should be independent stem from the fact that they are a majority in their region. So then, obliviously if immigrants ever gain a majority in a state, they would be perfectly justified in seceding from the US. If we were to take this ideal, we would have a world filled with millions of same-nationality states, and no sort of cultural blending or diversity. on top of that, what do you say to the 5-7% of the population of Kosovo that is Serbian? "Sorry, but without your consent, we're going to change your country and government, and make a whole new system completely devoid of anything Serbian" obliviously, the minorities just don't matter, right? Early 20th century elections in the South were perfectly just, as the majority wanted that type of government, right? obliviously, this is not right, but it is basically-the underlying reason that Kosovo can declare independence.

And then there's the whole question of a precedent. If Kosovo can be independent, why can't Srpska (an area just like Kosovo, except with Serbs as the majority). For that matter, why can't northern Kosovo, which is in its majority Serbian, be independent? Trying to solve the world's problems by splits instead of actually talking through the issues will never lead to a cohesive world.

It's unfortunate that a lot of seemingly neutral people here seem to have fallen for Serbian and Russian propaganda. Kosovo Albanians have long been discriminated against by the Serbian government in favour of the Serbian minority.

In 1998 (or around then), Serbia attacked Kosovo, and carried out what could be only be described as genocide against Kosovo Albanians. This was soon after Serbia's genocidal wars against Croatia, Bosnia, and their unsuccessful invasion of Slovenia. Anyone who does a bit of unbiased research on the Balkans in the 90s will realise that Serbia was the aggressor (or the chief supporter of local Serbian war criminals) in all these cases. Is it really surprising that Kosovo wanted independence from such a thuggish, and (to them) hateful nation?

I, for one, support Kosovo's independence wholeheartedly. Serbia gets absolutely no sympathy from me......

streak000

though i would agree that what the Serbian government did to the Albanians in 1998 could only be classified as ethnic clensing, that's not the whole truth. The measures taken by the Serbians in Kosovo were sparked by attacks by the KLA (basically a Kosovar Albanian guerrilla group, which have been identified as terrorists), but what the Serbians did in response prompted the justified intervension of NATO. But the Albanians in that area are not little angels. In 2004, unrest in Kosovo lead to the Albanians in the region to go for a similar ethnic attack as was wittnessed 6 years previous. During the ALbanian lead unrest, 8 Serbs were killed, more than 1000 were injured, 730 houses were destroyed, 36 Orthodox churches were burned to the ground, and 4100 minorities were displaced. All of this happened in a matter of 48 hours (sorce: 2004 unrest in Kosovo from Wikipedia).

I shall give you only one example of a scenario like Kosovos.

Imagine if California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona became predominantly Mexican. But these are illegals, let's say, just like the Albanians in Kosovo are illegal. Now let's say the Mexicans decide to make their own government, flag, and maybe even currency, and say that those states secede and make the....I don't know...United Mexican States of America. Would the U.S. let that slide? Would they say "Ohh you go ahead and grab 20% of our landmass, go ahead."

No they wouldn't.

So what makes this scenario any different than Kosovo? It isn't. Simply that. Take it from a person whose mother is from there, whose family died there. Thanks for reading.

Shadow_op

I agree with you and I myself dont acknolege Kosovo as anything other than a part Serbia because of the reasons you listed and one of my best friends is Serbian and she also had family members die there

Anybody is ok with this because it's not affecting them. If a state left the union people would be against it. 1337_ownage

There are a few states that wouldnt cause a fuss if they left

I am a Serbian born in a small Croatian village called Pakrac in the most violent years of the Yugoslav Wars. The Croatians wanted independence from Yugoslavia before the Balkan Wars started, and in the year I was born, they begun that independence. There were many Serbs living in Croatia, but the Croatian government wnted to be rid of them in order to 'purify their land'.

I remember what measures the Croatians took in order to do that. My family was in our house in Pakrac one day when armed Croatian soldiers burst in and told us that the Serbs were to be evacuated from Pakrac and Croatia immediately, and any resistance will be dealt with forcefully. As my family were escorted out of our house, the Croatians searched through our house and our pockets for money which they found and took from us. They then extracted family photos from our house, took out knives, and scratched them to bits and burned them in our fireplace. We were then forced to watch as our house was burned down, and as the same procedure was repeated with the other Serbs in the village. Our family was then placed in a containment facility, and some months later allowed to leave with the promise that we would never return to Croatia again. 2 years later, we moved to Australia as refugees, with no money, and no knowledge of the English language with the task of making a new life for ourselves.

This is a story similar with the treatment of the Serbians in Kosovo, who were forcefully ejected from their homes. Many people have heard the Albanian side of the story, but not the Serbian side, a side who have suffered just as much, if not even more than any people along the Balkans. A Serbian tyrant by the name of Slobodan Milosevic forced the Serbian population and military to do his bidding, and was later overthrown by the Serbian population and handed over by them to NATO. His influence on the world has left our country scarred for life, branded as murderers by others who have not heard, and would not be willing to beleive the Serbian side of the story. The true story.

So this situation would not be familiar with the people who have not experienced it, and would not know the feeling of cold terror running down their spines as they were seperated from their homes and family. Kosovo was taken illegally by the intervention of other nations into my country's politics. And now the situation has escalated with the constant protests of our people, and the actions that they have taken

I am not a nationalist attempting to make my country sound better than others. I am a Serbian who wants to spread the truth about the goings on in my country and explain the situation that is invisible to the international populace.

Here's why Kosovo should be independent: THEY WANT TO BE.Total-KO

I also happen to want Soulja Boy dead. But is it going to happen? No. Same logic is needed here, you don't always get what you want.

well, personally i think Kosovo and Tibet should be independent, but i don't want your scenario to happen then i would oppose the secession. I think the U.S. should support Kosovo and Tibet and other countries, so that that would make them our allies and we can establish military bases there and also China and Serbia are oppressive governments (which is different from your scenario because the U.S. is not oppressive) and i'm mad at Serbia for burning our embassy, i think we should demand they pay for the damages.whipassmt

You cannot control the acts of hooligans in our country, or any country. Who started all the sports riots all around the world? HOOLIGANS. I do feel sorry for the burning of your embassy, but you are assuming all of Serbia was involved in it. Even our president and national sportsmen publically admitted it was an action that need not have been taken.

listen to my story now:ok guys I agree with you about some facts...it's true that the Albanians are living on Kosovo for one or two centuries,but what they are doing since then is that they are trying to create "Great Albania" as they call it...not only Kosovo,but also northern Greece,western macedonia,and a part of Montenegro could became independent wery soon.You guys are living in America,so you don't know the story as I do...I come from Serbia,I was born on Kosovo,i spent first 7 years of my life there,I don't hate America,but I don't like your politic.also I am the one who supports JUSTICE,not you!That is a key word in this Kosovo issue,and it's missing.Kosovo was never a republic,it was only a Serbian province for almost 1000 years.In the 19 century the albanians came from the mountines and stared to grow.In the Second world war they supported the Nazis and have killed thousends of Serbs on Kosovo,later in Yugoslavia they were demonstrating against us.They used to kill and rape old men and woman.That repeated again in the '90,but Milosevic couldn't watch that.He may have been a nationalist,but he went to Hague and even died there.Now-what about the Albanians(Haradinaj and others)?even the Al Qaeda terrorist came to Kosovo to help the albanians.their leaders nowadays are the biggest terrorists!they are typical mafia!they are much bigger nationalists then Serbs.We are talking about the genocide...so the serbs may have done it in few months until the UN troops came,but it was a chance for albanian guerilla to fight back...The albanians on kosovo are killing Serbs for the last 9 years and nobody cares about it!how many Serbs were killed during NATO bombing in 1999?more then 2000,and how much did it cost them?western states say Kosovo is stable,we are living stable here,but I won't say that...only albanians are living good...the Serbs will live there until there is Serbia and until there is a hope for them.We,the Serbs,love Europe,but they can't call serbia a friend,if they do everything to give someone a part of us,and our pride...serbai has suffered a lot,we didn't deserve that...We are good and peaceful people,and you don't know that...think about this...

Anybody is ok with this because it's not affecting them. If a state left the union people would be against it. 1337_ownage

this is what I hate about the end of Imperialism. it makes people think that the land that states occupy right now is land they've always had and it's their God-given right to own it or something like that.