That is the question that probably can never be explained.[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="samuraiguns"] Though if had STARTED infinitely large, then it would be possible for it to expand.
MrGeezer
Why the Universe and Life is not Infinite
This topic is locked from further discussion.
the laws of physics are created...no, no, defined by humans; humans get stuff wrong all the time... I am pretty sure that in the PU there is something smashing the "laws of physics"/samuraiguns
Great.
If we're wrong about the laws of physics, then we're merely wrong about the laws of physics.
That still doesn't mean that "technology" can somehow magically overcome the laws of physics, or that literally ANY kind of "technology" is possible in an infinitely large universe.
Really doesn't change a thing.
I mean, I don't mean to speak for Mr. Geezer, but if you've ever studied any of the science involved, most of your claims or suppositions are just factually wrong as we currently understand the universe.I'll make an analogy. Say a television starts to cycle through every possible combination of pixels with colours and brightness for an infinite amount of time. It may seem stupid, but many of the the pictures it produces will consist of: every human, animal, peice of text in every colour, shape distortion, a picture of every star, things we haven't seen, things that don't exist, what the world looked like when it was formed of every second, how microbs formed how a CD was manufactured at 12812810210271026192 angles ect ect ect. And that's not infinite. Infinite implies that it is NEVER ENDING POSSIBILITIES which means that there will be an infinite amount of whatever you can possibly imagine. That's if life is infinite.[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="brandontwb"]And you know this how?brandontwb
first like the first reply said, the universe is not infinite.
second i liken your analogy to that of the old infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters could write the complete works of Shakespeare. in theory this is possible if the monkeys where all randomly typing. of course in reality you'd need more monkeys than would fit in the known universe. also monkey's don't type at random.
in your example you have a monitor randomly changing each pixel. now lets say we're going to an exact match (not some abstract art that one might think looks like a picture we want). Lets say the monitor is 1680x1050. that's 176,4000 pixels. lets say we are using 24bit color. that would be 16,777,216 different colors. so your chance of getting that pixel correct randomly is 1/2^24 or 1/16,777,216.
lets say you randomly change every pixel on the monitor ever cycle. Lets say your monitor is 60 Hz. that's 60 cycles a second. (60 frames per second) now your chance of getting exactly the picture you want is (1/(2^24))^176,400. This is equal to 1 in 2^176,424 cycles .
currently we think that the universe is 13.5-14 billions years old. lets say 14,000,000,000 *365(days in a year) * 24(hours in a day) *60 (min in an hour) *60 (secs) * 60 (cycles) = 26,490,240,000,000,000,000 (number is cycles since the start of the universe) lets round that off to 26.5 * 10^18.
now 2^80 is already equal to 1,208,925,819,614,629,174,706,176 which rounds to about 1.2 * 10^24. which is greater than the number of cycles since the start of the universe.
2^176,424 is vastly greater than 2^80 thus while in theory you can get picture of every human, even given the time since the start of the universe you're not close to the number of cycles that it would take to likely match a picture of any individual randomly pixel by pixel.
[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="brandontwb"]What are you talking on about? You were saying things like "such technology isn't possible" which yeah today isn't ( and it pretty close-minded thinking if you ask me) and also, you don't know the the universe isn't infinite either. I'm not pretending anything, I'm just suggesting something.samuraiguns
If a kind of technology violates the laws of physics, then it is NEVER possible, ANYWHERE.
If you disagree, then go ahead and design a perpetual motion machine. You'll revolutionize the world. Only problem is that NO technology can ever overcome this obstacle, because such technolgy would have to by its very nature violate the basic laws of physics.
Technology that violates how physics work CAN NOT EXIST.
Dude, please do not fall into the trap of thinking that anything can happen with the right technology. That's also a pop-science misconception. People see a limitation and think "we could solve this problem if only we had more advanced technology". Wrong. Technology can solve some problems, but technology can't overcome the laws of physics. Your seemingly magical PC doesn't VIOLATE the laws of physics, it UTILIZES the laws of physics in its basic design.
And again, I do not KNOW that the universe isn't infinitely large. As I said before, as far as we know the universe isn't infinitely large. We could be wrong, though there's absolutely no evidence that we're wrong. But whether the universe is or isn't infinitely large, that's completely irrelevant to your claims about aliens. The universe is already big enough that it's PRACTICALLY infinite (as opposed to LITERALLY infinite). And it's hard enough to contact or reach other civilizations REGARDLESS of whether or not the universe is infinitely large. Infinite or not? For the purposes of this discussion, it makes no difference. It's already big enough.
the laws of physics are created...no, no, defined by humans; humans get stuff wrong all the time... I am pretty sure that in the PU there is something smashing the "laws of physics"/ If you are trying to say that the basic laws of physics laid out by newton and Einstein are wrong... then I feel very very bad for you...[QUOTE="samuraiguns"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]the laws of physics are created...no, no, defined by humans; humans get stuff wrong all the time... I am pretty sure that in the PU there is something smashing the "laws of physics"/ If you are trying to say that the basic laws of physics laid out by newton and Einstein are wrong... then I feel very very bad for you... well, Einstein basically demonstrated that in a lot of ways Newton is indeed wrong and of course let us not forget what Einstein claimed to be his greatest blunder, the cosmological constant.If a kind of technology violates the laws of physics, then it is NEVER possible, ANYWHERE.
If you disagree, then go ahead and design a perpetual motion machine. You'll revolutionize the world. Only problem is that NO technology can ever overcome this obstacle, because such technolgy would have to by its very nature violate the basic laws of physics.
Technology that violates how physics work CAN NOT EXIST.
Dude, please do not fall into the trap of thinking that anything can happen with the right technology. That's also a pop-science misconception. People see a limitation and think "we could solve this problem if only we had more advanced technology". Wrong. Technology can solve some problems, but technology can't overcome the laws of physics. Your seemingly magical PC doesn't VIOLATE the laws of physics, it UTILIZES the laws of physics in its basic design.
And again, I do not KNOW that the universe isn't infinitely large. As I said before, as far as we know the universe isn't infinitely large. We could be wrong, though there's absolutely no evidence that we're wrong. But whether the universe is or isn't infinitely large, that's completely irrelevant to your claims about aliens. The universe is already big enough that it's PRACTICALLY infinite (as opposed to LITERALLY infinite). And it's hard enough to contact or reach other civilizations REGARDLESS of whether or not the universe is infinitely large. Infinite or not? For the purposes of this discussion, it makes no difference. It's already big enough.
strawberry9
[QUOTE="samuraiguns"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]the laws of physics are created...no, no, defined by humans; humans get stuff wrong all the time... I am pretty sure that in the PU there is something smashing the "laws of physics"/ If you are trying to say that the basic laws of physics laid out by newton and Einstein are wrong... then I feel very very bad for you... what like what goes up must come down and energy quotas and the like? of course they COULD be right...I dunno, we dunno.If a kind of technology violates the laws of physics, then it is NEVER possible, ANYWHERE.
If you disagree, then go ahead and design a perpetual motion machine. You'll revolutionize the world. Only problem is that NO technology can ever overcome this obstacle, because such technolgy would have to by its very nature violate the basic laws of physics.
Technology that violates how physics work CAN NOT EXIST.
Dude, please do not fall into the trap of thinking that anything can happen with the right technology. That's also a pop-science misconception. People see a limitation and think "we could solve this problem if only we had more advanced technology". Wrong. Technology can solve some problems, but technology can't overcome the laws of physics. Your seemingly magical PC doesn't VIOLATE the laws of physics, it UTILIZES the laws of physics in its basic design.
And again, I do not KNOW that the universe isn't infinitely large. As I said before, as far as we know the universe isn't infinitely large. We could be wrong, though there's absolutely no evidence that we're wrong. But whether the universe is or isn't infinitely large, that's completely irrelevant to your claims about aliens. The universe is already big enough that it's PRACTICALLY infinite (as opposed to LITERALLY infinite). And it's hard enough to contact or reach other civilizations REGARDLESS of whether or not the universe is infinitely large. Infinite or not? For the purposes of this discussion, it makes no difference. It's already big enough.
strawberry9
There's more than just the "universe is infinite theory" to describe the vastness of the Universe...We can't even see everything in the Universe with the most powerful telescops....It's very damn big, people can't even fathom it, and if you think you can, think 2000 times bigger at least, then multiply that by about a billion, it's HUGE.We so stupidly make the assumption that life exists in places other than Earth because the universe is just SO BIG that there HAS to be life out there.
Well if there is life out there, and the universe is in fact infinite, that would mean that life out there is infinite?
I remember thinking if there is infinite amound of life out there then there has to be an alien that looks like a toaster. If life is infinite then there has to be at least one that looks like a toaster right?
Then that means that there is bound to be at least one other alien out of the infinite that's only plan is destroy humanity. There has to be at least one life form out the infinite that has the technology and wants to destroy Earth?
So then I thought about it more. There would then be an alien race who's purpose is to defend Earth. Then maybe we should be seeing an epic battle right now? Maybe there is an alien species that's only plan is to desguise this battle.
So if life out there is infinite, there would be a lot more going on basically. And what we see is close to nothing.
brandontwb
If you are trying to say that the basic laws of physics laid out by newton and Einstein are wrong... then I feel very very bad for you... what like what goes up must come down and energy quotas and the like? of course they COULD be right...I dunno, we dunno. No Newton's laws still sound pretty damn accurate to me, as do Einstein's...You do realize a lot of these laws are made by extensive thought and testing? It's not just some guy saying "I think this makes sense, so it's a law."[QUOTE="strawberry9"][QUOTE="samuraiguns"] the laws of physics are created...no, no, defined by humans; humans get stuff wrong all the time... I am pretty sure that in the PU there is something smashing the "laws of physics"/samuraiguns
If you are trying to say that the basic laws of physics laid out by newton and Einstein are wrong... then I feel very very bad for you... well, Einstein basically demonstrated that in a lot of ways Newton is indeed wrong and of course let us not forget what Einstein claimed to be his greatest blunder, the cosmological constant. Correct me if I'm wrong...but wasn't that "blunder" actually proved to be correct, so he second guessed himself...Big deal, like you've never second guessed something you did.[QUOTE="strawberry9"][QUOTE="samuraiguns"] the laws of physics are created...no, no, defined by humans; humans get stuff wrong all the time... I am pretty sure that in the PU there is something smashing the "laws of physics"/quiglythegreat
I do not believe, just because of math, scientists have proven the universe is not infinite. Please show me the pictures of where the universe has ended. Then, I'll believe that it is not infinite.
Uh, you can't due to the physics of light. You do realize that we KNOW that universe isn't infinite right? Think about it, if the universe were infinite we should have reached total thermal equilibrium and entropy.I do not believe, just because of math, scientists have proven the universe is not infinite. Please show me the pictures of where the universe has ended. Then, I'll believe that it is not infinite.
hodges_3_5
well, Einstein basically demonstrated that in a lot of ways Newton is indeed wrong and of course let us not forget what Einstein claimed to be his greatest blunder, the cosmological constant. Correct me if I'm wrong...but wasn't that "blunder" actually proved to be correct, so he second guessed himself...Big deal, like you've never second guessed something you did. Einstein went into it assuming the universe had to be static, hence he created his Cos. Constant in order to counter some stuff. He was wrong, and he admitted it. Thank you Edwin Hubble![QUOTE="quiglythegreat"]
[QUOTE="strawberry9"] If you are trying to say that the basic laws of physics laid out by newton and Einstein are wrong... then I feel very very bad for you... Bluestorm-Kalas
If the universe were infinite, we'd either be in a constant state of maximum or minimum entropy (depending on which part of the universe you take as endless - the space it covers or its contents. If both were endless, then that poses its own problems, the first being that entropy would remain at a dead constant...). One means that it's far too cold for the formation of life and the other means that it was too hot. As you can see, we're here along with the thousands of other species who're unlucky enough to be our neighbours on this little blue world, and our surroundings change, so the most likely conclusion is that the universe is finite in both respects.
well, Einstein basically demonstrated that in a lot of ways Newton is indeed wrong and of course let us not forget what Einstein claimed to be his greatest blunder, the cosmological constant. Correct me if I'm wrong...but wasn't that "blunder" actually proved to be correct, so he second guessed himself...Big deal, like you've never second guessed something you did.The cosmological constant was Einsteins way of adding another force to allow the universe to remain static. It was a force that acted against gravity because Einstein believed in a static universe. The media portrays the cosmological constant as being revived with Dark Energy but in reality they really have nothing to do with one another.[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"]
[QUOTE="strawberry9"] If you are trying to say that the basic laws of physics laid out by newton and Einstein are wrong... then I feel very very bad for you... Bluestorm-Kalas
We so stupidly make the assumption that life exists in places other than Earth because the universe is just SO BIG that there HAS to be life out there.
brandontwb
No, a common argument is from probability and suggests that the sheer number of planets in the universe makes it extremely probable that life exists elsewhere in the universe. It says nothing about "must".
We so stupidly make the assumption that life exists in places other than Earth because the universe is just SO BIG that there HAS to be life out there.
Well if there is life out there, and the universe is in fact infinite, that would mean that life out there is infinite?
I remember thinking if there is infinite amound of life out there then there has to be an alien that looks like a toaster. If life is infinite then there has to be at least one that looks like a toaster right?
Then that means that there is bound to be at least one other alien out of the infinite that's only plan is destroy humanity. There has to be at least one life form out the infinite that has the technology and wants to destroy Earth?
So then I thought about it more. There would then be an alien race who's purpose is to defend Earth. Then maybe we should be seeing an epic battle right now? Maybe there is an alien species that's only plan is to desguise this battle.
So if life out there is infinite, there would be a lot more going on basically. And what we see is close to nothing.
brandontwb
your post has got to be in my top 10 unintelligent posts that I've read since becoming a member here at GS. seriously, a toaster... you can do better than this:|
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