Wife wants me to let her brother move into our house...

6 months is not a long time to recover, especially for someone who has failed this many times. If he has a record it will be harder for him to go back into society, let alone be hired anywhere.

I wouldn't give him written out rule paper, but I'd confront him with some basic rules. You should actually help him rehabilitate on the way and build a relationship, because I have a feeling he may be around your life for quite awhile.

Ok...so been there done that. My brother-in-law was basically a alcoholic and was in and out of jail since he was like 14 years old. When he was 19 or so my wife and I tried to help him a few times by having him live with us and remove his mother's influence, which frankly, is pretty bad.

We made some ground rules, sorta similar to yours:

1) No drinking alcohol/doing drugs in our home

2) While he didn't pay rent, he had to work and give X% to my wife so she could save money for him

3) Had to help with chores around the house and generally be clean

4) Had to be respectful to me and my wife as it was our home

I think your list is kinda ridiculous, especially 7, but yes, you will want ground rules. Anyways we tried this 3-4 times and every single time it went basically the same. Essentially, things start out great. He would work, be polite, follow the rules, and actually it was kind of nice having him around. Helping with the chores was also great and actually helped my wife and I out a bunch. Sure enough though, after around a month or two things would quickly go down hill.

First signs is he would start slipping on household chores and I would constantly have to ask him to help out. At first he would begrudgingly do it after a bunch of requests or just be like "ok ok ok!"...but after a while he acted resentful and it became a constant battle trying to get him to do his part.

This would start effecting other areas in his attitude...he would start making snide comments about why he has to give my wife money to save for him, or why he can't have 1 beer if he wants it. He would keep to himself and generally be really negative and bring the positivism in our home down a great deal. At some point the relationship between us becomes adversarial and it really starts to poison the relationship and even my wife, who def would cut him more slack then me, starts getting sick of his shit and lots of arguments between them ensue.

This all crescendos with him doing something utterly stupid. We did this three times when he was 19, 20, and like 22. The first time I had to kick him out I came home to him shit faced drunk tearing my house up and he lost his job. The second time he stood in my living room basically telling me he was going to kick my face in in my own house. And the third time is actually a funny story (in a twisted sort of way).

I got a call from my buddy who lived in the same neighborhood at around 3am asking if I noticed the half dozen or so police officers running around our neighborhood with flashlights and all the cop cars screaming around the street...I didn't think anything of it and figured it may have been some robber running from the cops through our neighborhood or something and went back to sleep. About 45 mins later I hear someone come in through the back door and I basically jumped up and ran out to the living room only to find my brother-in-law in hand cuffs, completely wasted and out of his mind, and telling me that I needed to get the cuffs off of him and help him hide.

I'm not sure if the police saw him enter my house but the hell if I am going to risk my family and my future and be an accessory to a crime. I told him to go in the bathroom and lay down, which he basically passed out immediately. Long story short I saw that there were 4 cop cars out front so went outside and spoke to them, and they went in and took him to jail. That was the end of the final time we allowed him to live with us.

Sounds fun, right?

Anyways not saying to not help your brother-in-law out...family is family. Just be prepared for some shitty times and be prepared to have to kick him out if necessary.

"7. The guest shall not encroach on the master bedroom or daughter's room at any time without receiving prior permission from the homeowners or risk being shot and/or killed as a unlawful trespasser."

what?

step 1 of helping a fellow human, treat them like a fellow human

it is your wife's brother, give him one chance, just one.

There is a difference between bodily satisfaction or base desire as it is implied that crime and substance abuse are, and intellectual fulfillment. I consider what you describe as the former and that can very much be evidence of a state of mind which needs to change, yet feels enjoyment from crime and substance abuse. Next, the human brain has for quite some time been thought of as an organ which is malleable in childhood, but static in form in adulthood. In recent times, contrary evidence has been found to suggest that the mind is malleable throughout an entire lifespan. It is called neuroplasticity. The theory presented by modern science is that a human mind has the potential to change, heal, and improve even with low potential of positive outcomes.

To say that it is possible for someone to grow to the point that they shall change no longer due to a certain lifestyle, granted said lifestyle does not cause immediate death, has been contradicted by science. Therefore, there is reason to believe that those who engage in criminal activities including substance abuse have the potential to live differently, not dependent on societal perception about the severity of their lifestyles.

This seems like a pretty reasonable list to protect yourself and your property from liability. You're essentially acting like a landlord which you have to do or else you WILL be taken advantage of (face it, almost no one would pay for housing if they didn't have to). You might want to make a section about your food as well as expand the one about looking for jobs by asking for copies of resumes he has submitted. Basically he needs to know that you are not a brother in law but a landlord giving him a one-time opportunity.

You should refuse to have him anywhere near you just for that reason alone.

I think you posted that list to see if giving him such a list is justified or not.

I don't know if you are justified by giving him that list. Its very difficult to tell because we don't know what he's in for. If its sexual assault, selling drugs or violent behavior then its justified, but if its fraud, hacking computers, drug use, small scale robbery etc. then I would think that list is a bit too much.

"sole fiscal responsibility of the guest" - why so formal. It's for your brother in law, not a government agency.

Your wife is letting her piece of shit brother ruin your life because he guilt trips her. Prepare for hell, OP. Should've insisted no from the start.

signed

Riverwolf007

i'll be moved in by may 1st.

Okay...the dude a few posts up just described his THREE attempts to help out a troubled man and show him a little kindness, and how every single time it all went to shit.

You can come up with whatever reasons for why that's the case, but the fact is that a lot of people DO try to act caring rather than apathetic, and it blows up in their faces. Hell, one could even argue that even if the first few attempts to help fail, the guy might finally clean up his act on the dozenth attempt. And yeah, sure, maybe. But the fact is that there are limits to what people are gonna put up with, ESPECIALLY when it hurts their families in the process. I'm all for helping out someone in need, but once I've seen that it's a potential danger to me and my family then that's the end of it. I've personally seen this several times myself.

Again, I'm not saying that the guy shouldn't let his brother in law move in, but don't start getting judgmental at people for thinking that's probably a bad idea. A lot of people are adverse to giving out that kind of help, because they have given out that kind of help (or personally seen someone else do it) and have repeatedly seen it turn into an ugly freaking situation. The prison system most certain IS fucked up in how it emphasizes punishment over rehabilititation,but let's not act as if the criminal mentality is just gonna be cured with some kindness and compassion. SOMETIMES that happens, yes. But a LOT of the times the person who lent out a helping hand just ends up getting dragged down too.

Get rid of number 7. He may be a junkie, but he is your wife's brother and giving him a note saying you will shoot him if he walks into the wrong room, is probably not the best course of action (not to mention, you know... murder) Otherwise, I think your list covers most everything, and it is definitely best to lay everything out as PLAINLY as possible, than to blow up later over unspoken rules.

Anyway, I've been through a similar situation, and it's almost never a good time. My dad went through it when he was younger with his cousin moving in and he said it was a nightmare. My personal experience comes from when my sister's boyfriend moved in for 9 months (was supposed to be just 3 months, then became 6, then 9, then almost longer). In my situation we were at the verge of kicking him out and creating a bad rift in the family, luckily he pulled it together enough to get a job and they got married and moved out.

Probably the biggest piece of advice I can give you. From the second or third day he is there (don't jump down his throat immediately), make finding a decent job priority number 1. The sooner he gets a job the sooner he is out of your house. Be on him, constantly asking about applications he's sending in (don't be a dick, be encouraging and helpful, but make sure he is actually doing something). Don't let this slide, can't stress this enough. He WILL just sit there all day and do nothing if you let him.

Also as stated, get this all in writing and have him agree to it. Another thing to be aware of, and this may vary from state to state, but if someone is living in your home for a certain amount of time, you may not be able to just kick them out, even if they aren't paying rent. Again, may depend on state, but you will have to give him an eviction notice, which is usually 30 days. So if you want to stick to your 6 month deal, make sure you look into this.

Another thing is, yes his actions need to abide by your rules, but YOUR attitude can go a LONG way in making this situation as pleasant as possible. If you go about skulking and getting into arguments over trivial things (WHY IS THIS CUP SITTING ON THE TABLE AND NOT WASHED) it WILL BE A NIGHTMARE. Anyways, good luck.

@MrGeezer: You are admitting that there is value in addressing the fundamental issues which cause these situations, but you are also telling me not to evaluate the situation, fundamentally. I do not quite understand your message.

I dont understand why you wouldnt be prepared to let him near your daughters bedroom without permission YET your willing to let him in your house.

If you cant trust a grown man to be near your daughter you cant let that man through the front door let alone to live with you permanently its a simple as that. Either you trust him or you dont.

Personally Id sooner give him enough cash to look after himself for long enough to find a job on the premise that he will pay his sister back in full in instalments. If he blows the cash then he has proven he cant look after himself and you have lost a bit of money but you can wash your hands of him knowing you gave him opportunity. If he in sensible then you have given him the opportunity to be self sufficient and start a new life.

No, I'm not telling you not to address the situation. You most certainly don't understand my message.

I must have misunderstood. Let's review something from earlier.

I am not speaking about this to "come up" with reasons to explain these situations, but rather understand the cause of said situations as they are.

Also, you commanded me not to judge people when I was not doing that in the first place. Please understand, the actual purpose of my comments is to evaluate arguments, but not to criticize the character of the people arguing.

It appears that you have misunderstood me as well in which case my misunderstanding of your response has been caused by a misconstrued interpretation of my comments.

@BranKetra: I posted this: "Some people find it hard to "come back" because they actually LIKE a life of crime and substance abuse, or because they've grown so accustomed to such a life that all the kindness in the world won't change them."

Talking about how science discovering that neuroplasiticity exists into adulthood does nothing to do with that. I didn't say that a lot of people CAN'T change, I said that a lot of them WON'T. And no, the reason isn't always simply because no one shows them any caring or empathy. It's not at all uncommon for people to actually try to help those guys, only for those guys to completely screw over the very people that were trying to help them. Now, we can spend all day speculating as to the reason why that's true, but we've already got it wrong once we start looking for "THE reason." That's oversimplifying the issue, and it's fairy-tale Hollywood garbage. You can't simplify this issue like that. Some people are like that because they never got a chance, some people are like that because of a history of trauma or abuse or whatever, some people are just plain bad people, etc. There's no denying that the way the prison system works is a problem and there's no denying that lack of opportunities makes it easier for people to slip back into drugs and crime. But it's a mistake to think of it as THE reason why those kinds of people have such a hard time "coming back". Oversimplifying the issue isn't really any better than completely ignoring it.

I am not speaking with regard to any particular prison system, but rather a fundamental societal issue which is the question of lex talionis or retributive justice as a worthwhile value instead of alternatives. This is an ongoing debate that is not only at the core of criminal justice, but also the very idea of someone deserving a bad outcome for acting in a way which society deems unacceptable. Since that is the state of things as they are, discussions could certainly utilize the examples you mentioned to address the widely accepted aforementioned view.

And I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with you at this point, but I have to point something out. A LOT of the effects of this kind of thing aren't "retributive" at all. Oh sure, prison systems can be far too retributive, the USA being a good example. But outside of that, a LOT of the way that people interact with criminals and "junkies" has nothing to do with retribution or feeling that they deserve a bad outcome.

I know that anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much, but let me offer my personal perspective. I don't like to judge people, I don't like to think of people as subhuman or "deserving" of pain and hardship. Granted, I've got a hell of a lot of problems on my own, and I get judged enough that I don't like doing the same to other people. But here's the thing: I do not WANT to believe that anyone "deserves" hardship. But the thing is, when it comes to ME, "deserves" has nothing to do with it. I refuse help to a LOT of people. I've had people ask me for money, and I said no. Maybe they deserved it, maybe they didn't, but that didn't really factor into the equation. In most cases, whether or not they "deserve it" is secondary to whether or not I'd rather keep it for myself.

Same reason I don't give strangers rides in my car. If I meet someone who gives me a sad story about how they're alone and broke and stranded and just need a short ride to wherever, I say no. That's not me judging them as undeserving of help, that's me trying to preserve my own ass.

And hell...this is a lot like when you hire someone for a job. You can refuse to hire someone, or fire someone after the fact. That DEFINITELY introduces hardship to that person, but it's a stretch for anyone to say that the reason that hardship was induced was because it was perceived that the person deserved it. Sure, in some cases that's EXACTLY why the person was rejected. But in a hell of a lot of cases, it has nothing to do with that. It's more along the lines of "I like you and I hope you find your path, but that ain't happening here. because we have something going on here, and you're a liability that threatens that." It often does have to do with the perception that bad people deserve what happens to them, but that's only a very small part of this. Again, I've been through this kind of shit. I'm not saying that it's always gonna turn out bad, but it's a big fucking risk. If it were just me, then I have allowed it to happen in the past (even though I highly suspected it was gonna end up badly). But that was just me. If it blew up in anyone's face, it would be mine alone. And I knew going in that I was alone in the matter and I'd have to deal with the consequences alone. But if I had a wife/girlfriend/kids, **** THAT. Regardless of what sociological issues led to that person's downfall, regardless of how much he just needs help, he ain't getting it here. At least not THAT kind of help (after all, there are potentially ways to help someone without letting him live in your home).

And that's got NOTHING to do with retribution or the concept that he "deserves" what happens to him. That's me recognizing that I have a more important obligation to care for my own family, and introducing that kind of risk is unacceptable even if the person genuinely needs help.

The prison system ABSOLUTELY needs reform, but that ultimately has little to do with whether or not one family takes in a man who needs help. Even if they do take him in, that ain't likely to change the larger sociological issues that left him so fucked up in the first place. that little bit of kindness MIGHT be the catalyst required for him to make a big change for the better, but most people can't afford to take that risk ESPECIALLY when that involves dragging a wife and kids into the mix. And that doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with retribution. retributive attitudes are DEFINITELY a problem, but we can't really simplify things to the point where that becomes THE problem. It's a complex issue, and oversimplifying it doesn't help.

@MrGeezer: I shall get back to you about this, someday. For now, I agree to disagree without being disagreeable (which is something I appreciate about you).