Wisconsin they are not telling the entire story in most of the news stories.

Gee, is it really that bad in the US? Some of your states need a real shake-up.

I live in the state of NSW in Australia. We've had the same government for 16 years and, thankfully, they will be voted out next election in just over a month's time (two party preferred vote is 66:34 to the opposition). We aren't in massive financial debt or anything to the sort, however we just need a new government to force through efficiencies. No cuts to front-line staff are necessary, just slashing the middle level bureaucracy of the ancient Health and Education systems.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="UT_Wrestler"] You do realize that I don't get paid for any of these so-called "vacation" days, right? Nor do I get paid for the mandatory 60 annual hours of continuing education I must do to keep my license. I'm only paid for the number of days I'm actually teaching, all the other days and hours put in don't merit extra pay.UT_Wrestler

Um, I think you're the one not telling the entire story. The state workers HAVE taken pay cuts and HAVE said repeatedly they're willing to come to the table to talk about even more pay cuts, that's not the issue here. The issue here is ending collective bargaining, which is completely unacceptable to any American who knows the importanceof unions. The issue is also that Scott Walker came out and said not only that he wants to bust unions in Wisconsin but all over the country. The issue is not taking pay cuts, the issue is preserving unions as an institution in this country.

theone86

Don't know where you get your info but no they have not.

The Unions all of a sudden are saying they have been willing to work with the state the whole time and it's absolute BS to drum up support. The union leaders are now afraid of losing the massive amount of dues they exploit from the members while doing nothing for them in return.

Wait, that's wrong, the only thing the unions really do is keep bad teachers in place and prevent advancement of good ones.

These unions are as corrupt as any of the major businesses out there. Their leaders love power and money and will do anything to keep it. They ruin any sort of competition that the teachers have making it impossible for good ones to be rewarded and bad ones to punished for sucking at their job.

These continued attacks upon unions are dusturbing...

htekemerald

If you would realize that these unions no longer help their members as much as they exploit them for money, you wouldn't be saying this.

Unions in the state of Wisconsin have been doing nothing good for their members for the past 30 years. They've only made it impossible to fire bad employees and cut all competition out of the jobs, something that is required to make sure the best people are put in the positions.

The unions are a trap. You're FORCED into the teachers union and other unions for public employees, you have no say in the matter. You are forced to follow their regulations and pay their dues even if it works against your productivity.

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

I agree. Why should the private workers have to be burdened with wisconsins debt and the public workers get a free ride?

mrbojangles25

private sector generally makes more money, but at the risk of having to take care of benefits, etc, by themselves

state workers generally get good benefits, but at the risk of not making a lot of money

you cant have your cake and eat it too, folks, America is a nation of gains and sacrifices, pros and cons...you gotta weigh them out for yourself and see what suits you better. People making 80k a year in the private sector have no more right to complain about how they have to pay for health insurance than a state worker has a right to complain about making 35k a year.

Seeing the average salary in Wisconsin is far lower than 80k and the private sector people have had to pay rising healthcare costs, rising retirement fund costs, or just simply losing their jobs, I think it's the public sectors time to take a bit of the burden off of the taxpayers.

These guys have had to pay virtually nothing into massive retirement funds that kick in after only 30 years of working. Most teachers in the state of Wisconsin can retire at age 55 if they entered teaching right out of college. Once they retire their large pension checks are 100% paid by the taxpayers for most of the rest of their lives.

The average age of retirement in this country is 65, and it's going up. This bill is making these teachers actually pay their weight a bit more instead of putting the massive burden on the taxpayers.

Limiting the unions collective bargaining power is also going to allow for pay differentiation amongst teachers. Therefore good teachers will finally beable to receive more benefits and pay than bad ones, just like the private sector. Right now in WI, a teacher who is actually good at their jobs recieves the same pay and benifits than the ones who are no good at all. The kids are harmed because these bad teachers cannot be fired because of the unions protection. Instead they can sit on their jobs for 30 years, retire, and then recieved this massive retirement fund for most of the rest of their lives. It's not fair and it does more harm than good to our education system.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Most state workers are not going to get wealthy on their salary. They can pay the bills and have a bit left. Rather than complain about state workers...why not go after politicians who make more than is necessary to live and have perks that are beyond ridiculous?Elraptor

Exactly... Most lawmakers anywhere in the country don't make a lot... They are rich though because they were rich prior to taking office... Some just feel obligated towards public service... Robert McNamara for example...

I will never sit here and complain about being an underpaid teacher. Do I have finacial constraints at the moment? Yes, absolutely. Heck, not many people don't?I've worked two jobs for ten of the twelve years that I've been a teacher.The only reason I'm not working a second job now is that I wanted my weekends free to be with my son. My wife and Ihave already discussed working during the summer to add extra income for expenses like birthdays, daycare, etc.

My concern here is for the school budgets in my state. In 2007, we were receiving $2,400 per pupil. In 2010/2011, a little over $1,600. That's on the same level as 1996. We are forecasting about $1,500 for next year's school budget. We are expected to increase test scores, maintain high standards, keep up with the rising cost of technology, fuel, suppliesand other expenses, with less teachers and staff. Something needs to give. On top of that, it seems as though our public schools will be competing for funds with charter schools very soon, but that is another can of worms. What does this mean for teachers like me who do not teach core academics? Dunno. Luckily, my school district does value related art teachers and wants to hang on to us.

I know very little about unions, but I'm thankful that South Carolina doesn't have teacher's unions. I can just hear the sound of more money draining from our already weakened school district's pockets.

I also hope that everybody knows that this is just the beginning of what's to come in terms of cuts in Wisconsin.

The state has a law that says we cannot have an unbalanced budget but somehow over the past 20+ years we have accumulated over 3.2 billion of debt. The cuts are coming now. Everybody is going to feel them.

The only thing we can hope for is that businesses don't pick up and leave the state. Walker is doing what he can to keep businesses here in Wisconsin. What's worse, a tax cut for businesses, or losing hundreds of jobs.

So far with Walkers budget and cuts nobody has lost their job. The goal is to keep it that way. Losing jobs and then having to live off of state and federal money is a horrible option. So far no teacher or state employee has lost their job. Over the past few years with the recession, state employees weren't hit with massive layoffs that happened across the state. We can just hope that businesses choose not to leave and that the economy starts turning around.

I will never sit here and complain about being an underpaid teacher. Do I have finacial constraints at the moment? Yes, absolutely. Heck, not many people don't?I've worked two jobs for ten of the twelve years that I've been a teacher.The only reason I'm not working a second job now is that I wanted my weekends free to be with my son. My wife and Ihave already discussed working during the summer to add extra income for expenses like birthdays, daycare, etc.

My concern here is for the school budgets in my state. In 2007, we were receiving $2,400 per pupil. In 2010/2011, a little over $1,600. That's on the same level as 1996. We are forecasting about $1,500 for next year's school budget. We are expected to increase test scores, maintain high standards, keep up with the rising cost of technology, fuel, suppliesand other expenses, with less teachers and staff. Something needs to give. On top of that, it seems as though our public schools will be competing for funds with charter schools very soon, but that is another can of worms. What does this mean for teachers like me who do not teach core academics? Dunno. Luckily, my school district does value related art teachers and wants to hang on to us.

I know very little about unions, but I'm thankful that South Carolina doesn't have teacher's unions. I can just hear the sound of more money draining from our already weakened school district's pockets.

Travo_basic

I'm worried about lowering education budgets as well. I know Walker is going to be cutting budgets across the board so I'm sure that education is going to take another blow.

I guess we are just living in the times. Walker is the first major politician to start cutting stuff back and reorganizing budgets to try to turn a surplus. The pains are going to spread across the state, this was only the beginning.

The whole country is going to have to start taking notes on what to do and what not to do. The fact is the country as well as many individual states are in massive debt. Debt that we the people are responsible for. Every side seems to have an idea but none have tried to do anything about it. The only thing we've see out of the past few presidents has been increases of spending across the board.

Our federal government wants to do something about it, but once you start spending it's nearly impossible to stop as people get it en-grained in their heads they are entitled to benefits and money. We will see what happens next.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

I agree. Why should the private workers have to be burdened with wisconsins debt and the public workers get a free ride?

Wasdie

private sector generally makes more money, but at the risk of having to take care of benefits, etc, by themselves

state workers generally get good benefits, but at the risk of not making a lot of money

you cant have your cake and eat it too, folks, America is a nation of gains and sacrifices, pros and cons...you gotta weigh them out for yourself and see what suits you better. People making 80k a year in the private sector have no more right to complain about how they have to pay for health insurance than a state worker has a right to complain about making 35k a year.

Seeing the average salary in Wisconsin is far lower than 80k and the private sector people have had to pay rising healthcare costs, rising retirement fund costs, or just simply losing their jobs, I think it's the public sectors time to take a bit of the burden off of the taxpayers.

These guys have had to pay virtually nothing into massive retirement funds that kick in after only 30 years of working. Most teachers in the state of Wisconsin can retire at age 55 if they entered teaching right out of college. Once they retire their large pension checks are 100% paid by the taxpayers for most of the rest of their lives.

The average age of retirement in this country is 65, and it's going up. This bill is making these teachers actually pay their weight a bit more instead of putting the massive burden on the taxpayers.

Limiting the unions collective bargaining power is also going to allow for pay differentiation amongst teachers. Therefore good teachers will finally beable to receive more benefits and pay than bad ones, just like the private sector. Right now in WI, a teacher who is actually good at their jobs recieves the same pay and benifits than the ones who are no good at all. The kids are harmed because these bad teachers cannot be fired because of the unions protection. Instead they can sit on their jobs for 30 years, retire, and then recieved this massive retirement fund for most of the rest of their lives. It's not fair and it does more harm than good to our education system.

I don't understand school's fetish with technology. If anything an overuse of technology can actually detract from the learning experiance.

Updated textbooks, school supplies, healither food, those are things schools should be investing in. I understand having computer labs as they are very necessary, but I think that some teachers use tech as to much of a crutch.

I can remember back in high school when having to write papers everybody would just jump out onto the internet and look for sources there. However I would look at the room right next to the computer lab, the big library. I think most students either forget or aren't taught that a library is a much better source for most non-current issues than the internet ever could be. The beauty of the library is that it's already stocked for most schools and doesn't require tons of funds to keep upgrading every few years.

if unions are around as a counter to private exploitation of workers why are there governmental unions anyway? is the government not benevolent? the government cannot profit so it cannot have that greatest evil of man GREED so what are the unions protecting its clients from? Just proposing the questions in a way that best fits the population of these forums surrealnumber5

The unions that are not a choice are a pure exploitation of workers. This is the case with most public jobs in Wisconsin. You are forced into a union, it's not an option. Thus the union does not have to compete against the non-unionized employees. Since the competition is gone, the union has no reason to really benefit employees. Instead then the union becomes a burden on the employees with dues and regulations that are counter-productive to the tasks at hand.

I don't understand school's fetish with technology. If anything an overuse of technology can actually detract from the learning experiance.

Updated textbooks, school supplies, healither food, those are things schools should be investing in. I understand having computer labs as they are very necessary, but I think that some teachers use tech as to much of a crutch.

I can remember back in high school when having to write papers everybody would just jump out onto the internet and look for sources there. However I would look at the room right next to the computer lab, the big library. I think most students either forget or aren't taught that a library is a much better source for most non-current issues than the internet ever could be. The beauty of the library is that it's already stocked for most schools and doesn't require tons of funds to keep upgrading every few years.

I would love to see us cut back on technology. I'm not a big believer that we need a smartboard in every classroom and wifi in ever corner of the school building. I also wouldn't be opposed to 4 day weeks with nine hour days rather than seven for students. You could save a bunch on fuel and food costs. The problem with that is the many parents who work five days and their daycare setup. You would also have students who are sitting all day instead of being active, so it might not be the most ideal situation. Just for alleviating some of the budget woes.Travo_basic

[QUOTE="Travo_basic"]I would love to see us cut back on technology. I'm not a big believer that we need a smartboard in every classroom and wifi in ever corner of the school building. I also wouldn't be opposed to 4 day weeks with nine hour days rather than seven for students. You could save a bunch on fuel and food costs. The problem with that is the many parents who work five days and their daycare setup. You would also have students who are sitting all day instead of being active, so it might not be the most ideal situation. Just for alleviating some of the budget woes.comp_atkins

if unions are around as a counter to private exploitation of workers why are there governmental unions anyway? is the government not benevolent? the government cannot profit so it cannot have that greatest evil of man GREED so what are the unions protecting its clients from? Just proposing the questions in a way that best fits the population of these forums surrealnumber5

:roll: If that were true we would all be communists.. And we are not.. Because unlike you we don't see the government as evil, nor do we see as good.. Its a neutral thing just like businesses.. There must be a balance between the two.... They both have their benefits and problems.

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]if unions are around as a counter to private exploitation of workers why are there governmental unions anyway? is the government not benevolent? the government cannot profit so it cannot have that greatest evil of man GREED so what are the unions protecting its clients from? Just proposing the questions in a way that best fits the population of these forums sSubZerOo

:roll: If that were true we would all be communists.. And we are not.. Because unlike you we don't see the government as evil, nor do we see as good.. Its a neutral thing just like businesses.. There must be a balance between the two.... They both have their benefits and problems.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]if unions are around as a counter to private exploitation of workers why are there governmental unions anyway? is the government not benevolent? the government cannot profit so it cannot have that greatest evil of man GREED so what are the unions protecting its clients from? Just proposing the questions in a way that best fits the population of these forums surrealnumber5

:roll: If that were true we would all be communists.. And we are not.. Because unlike you we don't see the government as evil, nor do we see as good.. Its a neutral thing just like businesses.. There must be a balance between the two.... They both have their benefits and problems.

Yes as worker right protections.. But yet again this is fruitless to even argue this with you because you have stated the past that you think that the vast majority of regulations should be dropped.. With such a extreme view it is fruitless to ever argue anything government related with you.

Personally, unions for government employees is ridiculous. As they are employees of the taxpayer and as such, the taxpayer should be the ones to decide whether said government employees get a raise or how much they should contribute to their pension plans or other benefits and not some union. Do away with the union and they could use said union dues towards their benefit packages.

The elimination of collective bargaining rights has nothing to do with deficit reduction.-Sun_Tzu-

Personally, unions for government employees is ridiculous. As they are employees of the taxpayer and as such, the taxpayer should be the ones to decide whether said government employees get a raise or how much they should contribute to their pension plans or other benefits and not some union. Do away with the union and they could use said union dues towards their benefit packages.

WhiteKnight77

Personally, unions for government employees is ridiculous. As they are employees of the taxpayer and as such, the taxpayer should be the ones to decide whether said government employees get a raise or how much they should contribute to their pension plans or other benefits and not some union. Do away with the union and they could use said union dues towards their benefit packages.

WhiteKnight77

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]The elimination of collective bargaining rights has nothing to do with deficit reduction.surrealnumber5

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]The elimination of collective bargaining rights has nothing to do with deficit reduction.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="surrealnumber5"] from my understanding there is no elimination, they have the right to use collective bargaining for wages, and anything else as long as voters have OK'd the claim. having civil servents needing the population they are meant to serve agree with their actions prior to them taking it is wrong?surrealnumber5

This teacher makes some great points!

Especially near the end!

The facts that a) unions which supported the governor's campaign are exempt and b) he implemented tax cuts which caused the shortfall and is now scapegoating the unions should be red flags to everyone regarding this bill. mattbbpl

Let's just tax the crap out of businesses so they have to lay off more private sector employees and let public sector employees not pay into their retirement funds so the taxpayers have to continue support bloated funds.

Yes makes perfect sense. Keep screwing over the private sector and let the public sector go completely unhindered by the economic downturn.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]The facts that a) unions which supported the governor's campaign are exempt and b) he implemented tax cuts which caused the shortfall and is now scapegoating the unions should be red flags to everyone regarding this bill. Wasdie

Let's just tax the crap out of businesses so they have to lay off more private sector employees and let public sector employees not pay into their retirement funds so the taxpayers have to continue support bloated funds.

Yes makes perfect sense. Keep screwing over the private sector and let the public sector go completely unhindered by the economic downturn.

But turning a balanced budget into a deficit with additional tax cuts and then blaming the teacher's union is dishonest. I haven't even heard him mention the tax cuts in his discussions regarding this. He's being completely dishonest and scapegoating the public unions.

But turning a balanced budget into a deficit with additional tax cuts and then blaming the teacher's union is dishonest. I haven't even heard him mention the tax cuts in his discussions regarding this. He's being completely dishonest and scapegoating the public unions.

mattbbpl

Public sector unions are parasites. If the governor is really trying to break them, fine with me.

Am I the only one who is concerned by the fact that a group of state senators can completely freeze the democratic process by leaving the state and refusing to return? Isn't there some kind of provision that declares their positions vacant after so many days or can they delay the vote until something gets worked out?

Am I the only one who is concerned by the fact that a group of state senators can completely freeze the democratic process by leaving the state and refusing to return? Isn't there some kind of provision that declares their positions vacant after so many days or can they delay the vote until something gets worked out?

UnknownSniper65

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]

But turning a balanced budget into a deficit with additional tax cuts and then blaming the teacher's union is dishonest. I haven't even heard him mention the tax cuts in his discussions regarding this. He's being completely dishonest and scapegoating the public unions.

Omni-Slash

[QUOTE="UnknownSniper65"]

Am I the only one who is concerned by the fact that a group of state senators can completely freeze the democratic process by leaving the state and refusing to return? Isn't there some kind of provision that declares their positions vacant after so many days or can they delay the vote until something gets worked out?

Omni-Slash

Am I the only one who is concerned by the fact that a group of state senators can completely freeze the democratic process by leaving the state and refusing to return? Isn't there some kind of provision that declares their positions vacant after so many days or can they delay the vote until something gets worked out?

UnknownSniper65

Am I the only one who is concerned by the fact that a group of state senators can completely freeze the democratic process by leaving the state and refusing to return? Isn't there some kind of provision that declares their positions vacant after so many days or can they delay the vote until something gets worked out?

[QUOTE="UnknownSniper65"]

Am I the only one who is concerned by the fact that a group of state senators can completely freeze the democratic process by leaving the state and refusing to return? Isn't there some kind of provision that declares their positions vacant after so many days or can they delay the vote until something gets worked out?

comp_atkins

Filibusters can be circumvented...state senators fleeing the state and refusing to vote can't.

It's obviously a balance. We can't advocate for continually raising taxes anymore than we can advocate for continually lowering taxes. But most tax rates (outside of corporate taxes, which have a high base and are littered with special interest exemptions that need to be cleaned up) are at an all-time low.

We cannot continue to simultaneously beat the deficit reduction and lower taxes drums. mattbbpl

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="UnknownSniper65"]

Am I the only one who is concerned by the fact that a group of state senators can completely freeze the democratic process by leaving the state and refusing to return? Isn't there some kind of provision that declares their positions vacant after so many days or can they delay the vote until something gets worked out?

UnknownSniper65

Filibusters can be circumvented...state senators fleeing the state and refusing to vote can't.

From what I understand, that's correct. It's not a long term strategy to avoiding the vote. It's really only a way of very publicly communicating their stance on the issue to their constituents.comp_atkins

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]It's obviously a balance. We can't advocate for continually raising taxes anymore than we can advocate for continually lowering taxes. But most tax rates (outside of corporate taxes, which have a high base and are littered with special interest exemptions that need to be cleaned up) are at an all-time low.

We cannot continue to simultaneously beat the deficit reduction and lower taxes drums. Omni-Slash

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"] From what I understand, that's correct. It's not a long term strategy to avoiding the vote. It's really only a way of very publicly communicating their stance on the issue to their constituents.Omni-Slash

Again, I explicitly stated that I wasn't referring to the base corporate tax rate. Why are you equating the personal tax rates to "tax rates on the poor"? I am also for reducing the base corporate tax rate and removing exemptions. If that's what the governor was proposing, then you could count me in.

But no, he reduced taxes flatly and then blamed the unions for the resulting deficit. It's completely dishonest and disgusting.mattbbpl