/thread.
:P
This topic is locked from further discussion.
yes So how exactly do you reconcile that with your opposition to tyranny? Thanks to what was a strong abolitionist movement in the north, when the North won the war, slavery was once and for all abolished. Had the outcome been different and the South had won, about four million people would have still been in chains, with absolutely no freedom to speak of. That's the equivalent of roughly 39 million people being enslaved today in proportion to the current population. That's what the south was primarily fighting for - to guarantee that those in chains stay in chains. For all their talk about "state rights", that didn't stop the drafters of the Confederate federalconstitution from making it unconstitutional for any individual Confederate states to abolish slavery. but you dont think it would have went away soon after? Slavery WAS more expensive than freedom and was sustained by the government.[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] So you would rather of had the south win?
-Sun_Tzu-
[QUOTE="Flanker15"]what is wrong with Reagan? He challenged the Soviets and it worked. I don't see how that's a failureReagan, I've settled on Reagan now.
mohfrontline
Reaganmoics, Turning the Republican party into the mockery it is today, Taking credit for things he had little part in (like the end of the Cold War), Bringing Al qaeda and many other extremist groupes around the world to power. Just for starters.
So how exactly do you reconcile that with your opposition to tyranny? Thanks to what was a strong abolitionist movement in the north, when the North won the war, slavery was once and for all abolished. Had the outcome been different and the South had won, about four million people would have still been in chains, with absolutely no freedom to speak of. That's the equivalent of roughly 39 million people being enslaved today in proportion to the current population. That's what the south was primarily fighting for - to guarantee that those in chains stay in chains. For all their talk about "state rights", that didn't stop the drafters of the Confederate federalconstitution from making it unconstitutional for any individual Confederate states to abolish slavery. but you dont think it would have went away soon after? Slavery WAS more expensive than freedom and was sustained by the government. Slavery was more expensive than freedom? Are you serious? Who wouldn't want to not have to pay their work force? All they had to do is provide food to make sure they wouldnt die.. that's much more cheaper than having to pay them wages so they could support themselves.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="danwallacefan"] yes
danwallacefan
what is wrong with Reagan? He challenged the Soviets and it worked. I don't see how that's a failure[QUOTE="mohfrontline"][QUOTE="Flanker15"]
Reagan, I've settled on Reagan now.
Flanker15
Reaganmoics, Turning the Republican party into the mockery it is today, Taking credit for things he had little part in (like the end of the Cold War), Bringing Al qaeda and many other extremist groupes around the world to power. Just for starters.
And let's not forget the drug war which has decimated impoverished urban cities, and soared the US prison population to that of one greater than any other country. How Republicans look up to him, and are so strongly supportive of fighting the "terrorists" is just a big facepalm.So how exactly do you reconcile that with your opposition to tyranny? Thanks to what was a strong abolitionist movement in the north, when the North won the war, slavery was once and for all abolished. Had the outcome been different and the South had won, about four million people would have still been in chains, with absolutely no freedom to speak of. That's the equivalent of roughly 39 million people being enslaved today in proportion to the current population. That's what the south was primarily fighting for - to guarantee that those in chains stay in chains. For all their talk about "state rights", that didn't stop the drafters of the Confederate federalconstitution from making it unconstitutional for any individual Confederate states to abolish slavery. but you dont think it would have went away soon after? Slavery WAS more expensive than freedom and was sustained by the government. No I don't.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="danwallacefan"] yes
danwallacefan
Now, I don't consider the Civil War as one of the most necessary of wars, and if it wasn't fought I still think that slavery would have soon been abolished. After all, the U.S. was really the only country to fight a war in order to abolish slavery. Countries like England didn't have to fight a gruesome, bloody war to abolish slavery.
But considering the sheer amount of human life lost because of the Civil War, especially in the South, I don't think that after winning the war the South would just free their slaves, considering how much they sacrificed to keep them enslaved, and how much they convinced themselves and propagated the idea that slavery was a natural thing.
[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]but you dont think it would have went away soon after? Slavery WAS more expensive than freedom and was sustained by the government. Slavery was more expensive than freedom? Are you serious? Who wouldn't want to not have to pay their work force? All they had to do is provide food to make sure they wouldnt die.. that's much more cheaper than having to pay them wages so they could support themselves.Slave masters had to feed them, house them (basically pay for all their living expenses) and they had to track them down if they ran away (which is why there was that whole fugitive slave act)[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] So how exactly do you reconcile that with your opposition to tyranny? Thanks to what was a strong abolitionist movement in the north, when the North won the war, slavery was once and for all abolished. Had the outcome been different and the South had won, about four million people would have still been in chains, with absolutely no freedom to speak of. That's the equivalent of roughly 39 million people being enslaved today in proportion to the current population. That's what the south was primarily fighting for - to guarantee that those in chains stay in chains. For all their talk about "state rights", that didn't stop the drafters of the Confederate federalconstitution from making it unconstitutional for any individual Confederate states to abolish slavery.
EMOEVOLUTION
Will you now?if someone says bush I'll punch them in the mouth for being an ignoramus
Willistron
yes So how exactly do you reconcile that with your opposition to tyranny? Thanks to what was a strong abolitionist movement in the north, when the North won the war, slavery was once and for all abolished. Had the outcome been different and the South had won, about four million people would have still been in chains, with absolutely no freedom to speak of. That's the equivalent of roughly 39 million people being enslaved today in proportion to the current population. That's what the south was primarily fighting for - to guarantee that those in chains stay in chains. For all their talk about "state rights", that didn't stop the drafters of the Confederate federalconstitution from making it unconstitutional for any individual Confederate states to abolish slavery.[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] So you would rather of had the south win?
-Sun_Tzu-
It is a fact that when the armies for the North and South were first formed, only a small minority of the soldiers on either side would have declared that the reason they joined the army was to fight either "for" or "against" slavery.Most Southerners were small farmers that could not afford slaves. Most Northerners were small farmers or tradesmen that had never evenseena slave.
That basically makes your argument about the Southerners owning slaves null..
Could someone explain how Jimmy Carter was the worst president in the history of the United States. He wasn't anything special, but what exactly did he do that was so much worse than every other single president.-Sun_Tzu-I guess it was mainly because of his handling of the Iranian hostage crisis, that and his unwavering pessimism.
So how exactly do you reconcile that with your opposition to tyranny? Thanks to what was a strong abolitionist movement in the north, when the North won the war, slavery was once and for all abolished. Had the outcome been different and the South had won, about four million people would have still been in chains, with absolutely no freedom to speak of. That's the equivalent of roughly 39 million people being enslaved today in proportion to the current population. That's what the south was primarily fighting for - to guarantee that those in chains stay in chains. For all their talk about "state rights", that didn't stop the drafters of the Confederate federalconstitution from making it unconstitutional for any individual Confederate states to abolish slavery.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="danwallacefan"] yes
Xx_Hopeless_xX
It is a fact that when the armies for the North and South were first formed, only a small minority of the soldiers on either side would have declared that the reason they joined the army was to fight either "for" or "against" slavery.Most Southerners were small farmers that could not afford slaves. Most Northerners were small farmers or tradesmen that had never evenseena slave.
That basically makes your argument about the Southerners owning slaves null..
Um, no it doesn't. Yes, slave owners were a minority, but they were a very wealthy minority and many, especially in the deep south, where slaves consisted for about half the population, wielded a great deal of political power. When you look at most conventional wars throughout history, they are triggered primarily by the interests of a very influential and well off minority, as was the case in the Civil War, which was triggered by very, very, wealthy slave/plantation owners.Definitely Obama. Never liked him. Makes me want to puke.mephie25So he's the worst because he makes you want to puke? Interesting. Personally I'd say James Buchanon, don't think I really need to elaborate as others have. In recent memory, George W. Bush is easily the worst.
[QUOTE="mephie25"]Definitely Obama. Never liked him. Makes me want to puke.HoolaHoopManSo he's the worst because he makes you want to puke? Interesting. Personally I'd say James Buchanon, don't think I really need to elaborate as others have. In recent memory, George W. Bush is easily the worst.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Could someone explain how Jimmy Carter was the worst president in the history of the United States. He wasn't anything special, but what exactly did he do that was so much worse than every other single president.danwallacefanI guess it was mainly because of his handling of the Iranian hostage crisis, that and his unwavering pessimism. If the Iranian hostage crisis is one of the primary reasons why Carter is being cited in this thread, then wouldn't Reagan be worse, due to Iran-Contra? However, something tells me that many of those who are citing Carter have a very favorable opinion of Reagan.
Buchanan and Carter come to mind first. Carter was a bumbling idiot who actually thought economic sanctions were an effective tactic when negotiating with opposing powers. Not to mention the inflation during his presidency was laughably high. He paved the way for the Reagan years.
Andrew Jackson for killing my people too. :x
[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] So how exactly do you reconcile that with your opposition to tyranny? Thanks to what was a strong abolitionist movement in the north, when the North won the war, slavery was once and for all abolished. Had the outcome been different and the South had won, about four million people would have still been in chains, with absolutely no freedom to speak of. That's the equivalent of roughly 39 million people being enslaved today in proportion to the current population. That's what the south was primarily fighting for - to guarantee that those in chains stay in chains. For all their talk about "state rights", that didn't stop the drafters of the Confederate federalconstitution from making it unconstitutional for any individual Confederate states to abolish slavery.
-Sun_Tzu-
It is a fact that when the armies for the North and South were first formed, only a small minority of the soldiers on either side would have declared that the reason they joined the army was to fight either "for" or "against" slavery.Most Southerners were small farmers that could not afford slaves. Most Northerners were small farmers or tradesmen that had never evenseena slave.
That basically makes your argument about the Southerners owning slaves null..
Um, no it doesn't. Yes, slave owners were a minority, but they were a very wealthy minority and many, especially in the deep south, where slaves consisted for about half the population, wielded a great deal of political power. When you look at most conventional wars throughout history, they are triggered primarily by the interests of a very influential and well off minority, as was the case in the Civil War, which was triggered by very, very, wealthy slave/plantation owners.A very small minority...
The South had an economic interest in the spread of slavery to the new territories so that new slave states could be created and the South's political influence would remain strong. The North had an interest in limiting the spread of slavery into the new territories for both purposes of controlling Southern political power AND support of the moral issue.
Although the majority of the American people-- including many moderate politicians like Abraham Lincoln--wanted to avoid Civil War and were content to allow slavery to die a slow, inevitable death..
Southern politicians convinced their majority that the North was threatening their way of life and their culture. Northern politicians convinced their majority that the South, if allowed to secede, was really striking a serious blow at democratic government. In these arguments, both southern and northern politicians were speaking the truth--but not "the whole truth." They knew that to declare the war to be a fight over slavery would cause a lot of the potential soldiers of both sides to refuse to fight.
It was less about morals...
but you dont think it would have went away soon after? Slavery WAS more expensive than freedom and was sustained by the government. No I don't.[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] So how exactly do you reconcile that with your opposition to tyranny? Thanks to what was a strong abolitionist movement in the north, when the North won the war, slavery was once and for all abolished. Had the outcome been different and the South had won, about four million people would have still been in chains, with absolutely no freedom to speak of. That's the equivalent of roughly 39 million people being enslaved today in proportion to the current population. That's what the south was primarily fighting for - to guarantee that those in chains stay in chains. For all their talk about "state rights", that didn't stop the drafters of the Confederate federalconstitution from making it unconstitutional for any individual Confederate states to abolish slavery.
-Sun_Tzu-
Now, I don't consider the Civil War as one of the most necessary of wars, and if it wasn't fought I still think that slavery would have soon been abolished. After all, the U.S. was really the only country to fight a war in order to abolish slavery. Countries like England didn't have to fight a gruesome, bloody war to abolish slavery.
But considering the sheer amount of human life lost because of the Civil War, especially in the South, I don't think that after winning the war the South would just free their slaves, considering how much they sacrificed to keep them enslaved, and how much they convinced themselves and propagated the idea that slavery was a natural thing.
I'm still baffled by how Lincoln gets blamed for the Civil War? How short are we on history here?Slavery was considered a serious problem that could fracture the states from the day the United States was formed... and nobody solved the problem but the dude in office when the south fired the first shot gets blamed... WT :o
Dude should get credit that after the war he pushed for reconstruction in the face of calls to punish the South, a big step in bringing the nation back together in a sustainable manner.
9 times out of 10 it would have been BUT I wouldnt have civil rites at this point, we just got our civil rites a little over 40 years ago civil rights, you mean anti-discrimination laws?look at it this way, I cant go into a store cuz Im black but u can cuz u white, I guess that doesnt falls under civil rites huh?[QUOTE="x8VXU6"]
[QUOTE="danwallacefan"] please! slavery would have gone away sooner or later in the South. The Civil war wasn't just over slavery, it was over the whole issue of States' rights
danwallacefan
civil rights, you mean anti-discrimination laws?look at it this way, I cant go into a store cuz Im black but u can cuz u white, I guess that doesnt falls under civil rites huh?[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]
[QUOTE="x8VXU6"]9 times out of 10 it would have been BUT I wouldnt have civil rites at this point, we just got our civil rites a little over 40 years ago
x8VXU6
Are we dealing in modern times?..if so...no offense but thats lol worthy..
I'd also throw in John Tyler. He vetoed the entire Whig agenda much to the chagrin of congressional Whigs including the vetoing of Clay's legislation for a national banking act following the panic of 1837. Shortly after he took office he was officially expelled from the Whig party. The president of the time was kicked out of his own party. The House of Representatives was considering impeaching him after he vetoed a tariff bill and I read somewhere that a committe later on concluded he misused the veto.
These days getting thrown out of either party might not necessary indicate a bad thing ;)I'd also throw in John Tyler. He vetoed the entire Whig agenda much to the chagrin of congressional Whigs including the vetoing of Clay's legislation for a national banking act following the panic of 1837. Shortly after he took office he was officially expelled from the Whig party. The president of the time was kicked out of his own party. The House of Representatives was considering impeaching him after he vetoed a tariff bill and I read somewhere that a committe later on concluded he misused the veto.
Bobzfamily
Um, no it doesn't. Yes, slave owners were a minority, but they were a very wealthy minority and many, especially in the deep south, where slaves consisted for about half the population, wielded a great deal of political power. When you look at most conventional wars throughout history, they are triggered primarily by the interests of a very influential and well off minority, as was the case in the Civil War, which was triggered by very, very, wealthy slave/plantation owners.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]
It is a fact that when the armies for the North and South were first formed, only a small minority of the soldiers on either side would have declared that the reason they joined the army was to fight either "for" or "against" slavery.Most Southerners were small farmers that could not afford slaves. Most Northerners were small farmers or tradesmen that had never evenseena slave.
That basically makes your argument about the Southerners owning slaves null..
Xx_Hopeless_xX
A very small minority...
The South had an economic interest in the spread of slavery to the new territories so that new slave states could be created and the South's political influence would remain strong. The North had an interest in limiting the spread of slavery into the new territories for both purposes of controlling Southern political power AND support of the moral issue.
Although the majority of the American people-- including many moderate politicians like Abraham Lincoln--wanted to avoid Civil War and were content to allow slavery to die a slow, inevitable death..
Southern politicians convinced their majority that the North was threatening their way of life and their culture. Northern politicians convinced their majority that the South, if allowed to secede, was really striking a serious blow at democratic government. In these arguments, both southern and northern politicians were speaking the truth--but not "the whole truth." They knew that to declare the war to be a fight over slavery would cause a lot of the potential soldiers of both sides to refuse to fight.
It was less about morals...
So are you agreeing with me?[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Um, no it doesn't. Yes, slave owners were a minority, but they were a very wealthy minority and many, especially in the deep south, where slaves consisted for about half the population, wielded a great deal of political power. When you look at most conventional wars throughout history, they are triggered primarily by the interests of a very influential and well off minority, as was the case in the Civil War, which was triggered by very, very, wealthy slave/plantation owners. -Sun_Tzu-
A very small minority...
The South had an economic interest in the spread of slavery to the new territories so that new slave states could be created and the South's political influence would remain strong. The North had an interest in limiting the spread of slavery into the new territories for both purposes of controlling Southern political power AND support of the moral issue.
Although the majority of the American people-- including many moderate politicians like Abraham Lincoln--wanted to avoid Civil War and were content to allow slavery to die a slow, inevitable death..
Southern politicians convinced their majority that the North was threatening their way of life and their culture. Northern politicians convinced their majority that the South, if allowed to secede, was really striking a serious blow at democratic government. In these arguments, both southern and northern politicians were speaking the truth--but not "the whole truth." They knew that to declare the war to be a fight over slavery would cause a lot of the potential soldiers of both sides to refuse to fight.
It was less about morals...
So are you agreeing with me?I don't know...i haven't gotten enough sleep..brain isn't functioning...
>Killed billions of peopleBush, cuz did you ever hear that guy talk?!?! It was like, sooooo stupid, and he declared the war and killed billions of people.
Theokhoth
civil rights, you mean anti-discrimination laws?look at it this way, I cant go into a store cuz Im black but u can cuz u white, I guess that doesnt falls under civil rites huh? well, granted, its undesirable, but what gives you the right to say that storeowners MUST service those who they would rather not?[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]
[QUOTE="x8VXU6"]9 times out of 10 it would have been BUT I wouldnt have civil rites at this point, we just got our civil rites a little over 40 years ago
x8VXU6
The Johnson administration doesn't seem to be anywhere near the worst to me. You have the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act, Medicare and Medicaid, great society, "war on poverty". Granted you're going to disagree with that, and probably throw in Vietnam, but to call him the worst president is really a stretch.It's a tie between Lyndon Johnson and Jimmy Carter, no doubt. There is literally nothing positive to say about either administration. Oh yeah, and those citing George W. Bush, I implore you to get an education, thanks.
MarcusAntonius
Also, you don't have to act so arrogantly, there are other users who like civility when discussions arise.
[QUOTE="Anti-Venom"]Obama...lies too muchheysharpshooter
news flash, but every president has lied to you. A lot.
Not to the extent that Obama does, but that also isn't helped by the robert gibbs the most pathetic excuse for a press secretary i've ever seen
[QUOTE="heysharpshooter"]
[QUOTE="Anti-Venom"]Obama...lies too muchdrumbreak1
news flash, but every president has lied to you. A lot.
Not to the extent that Obama does, but that also isn't helped by the robert gibbs the most pathetic excuse for a press secretary i've ever seen
Hey, that guy gives me a good laugh every time he talks. :lol:[QUOTE="heysharpshooter"]
[QUOTE="Anti-Venom"]Obama...lies too muchdrumbreak1
news flash, but every president has lied to you. A lot.
Not to the extent that Obama does, but that also isn't helped by the robert gibbs the most pathetic excuse for a press secretary i've ever seen
What are you expecting from a press secretary? :P[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
[QUOTE="danwallacefan"] which would have been better. We dont need some strong central government.
danwallacefan
:lol:
The Articles of Confederation Era begs to differ. The US nearly tore itself apart, and we only had thirteen states then! :lol:
which, once again, would have been preferable to today. Small states are the best way to preserve liberty.You know, there's a good reason why the United States scrapped the Articles of Confederation. You have taken an American history course, right? :?
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment