Worst U.S. president ever? **POLL**

I'd say Andrew Jackson, but he's more overrated than outright bad. For worst president, I'd say Nixon.Video_Game_King

Nixon wasn't a bad president, he was actually a pretty good one. He still would've won and served for 4 more years if he didn't conduct the watergate stuff.

But my vote goes to Jimmy Carter, he isn't the worst (but still pretty bad), but I strongly dislike him.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="lilburtonboy748"]No one really...I don't believe in voting..just rioting. But I wrote in Ron Paul anyways.lilburtonboy748

Mr. Security Man doesn't like riots...

Barack Obama. Let's face it, he definitely made more sense than John McCain on the economy. Actually, looking back, I would have supported Joe Biden in the primaries, but I didn't really know much about him at the time, and he dropped out really early. I was never a fan of John Edwards, and, let's face it, Hillary Clinton lost all of my respect when she started calling for a gas tax break.

Gotta go with W. as the worst. His administration was responsible for violating every one of the first 10 ammendments of the constitution except the 3rd. Repealled posse commetatus act, illegally spied on his own citizenry, illegally kidnapped and detained citizens and foreign nationals, ignored the right of habeas corpus. Ignored repeated warnings about an immenent attack on the US. Never pursued the guy responsible, let that guy's family members fly out of the US. Refused to conduct any meaningful investigation as to how the attack could have happened. Destroyed evidence. Invaded a nation with no links to the attack in contravention to US and international law. Removed goverment oversight into financial and industrial regulations, which led to what may be the worst economic crisis the US has ever faced. Basically did to the US what 2 world wars did to the UK. ENjoy the fade into obscurity, kids! Thanks George.

I'd say 2nd worst was Grant, but he's not on your list of choices.

bogaty

[QUOTE="lilburtonboy748"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Mr. Security Man doesn't like riots...

chessmaster1989

Barack Obama. Let's face it, he definitely made more sense than John McCain on the economy. Actually, looking back, I would have supported Joe Biden in the primaries, but I didn't really know much about him at the time, and he dropped out really early. I was never a fan of John Edwards, and, let's face it, Hillary Clinton lost all of my respect when she started calling for a gas tax break.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"][QUOTE="lilburtonboy748"]Ha, and I don't like him. Who did you support?lilburtonboy748

Barack Obama. Let's face it, he definitely made more sense than John McCain on the economy. Actually, looking back, I would have supported Joe Biden in the primaries, but I didn't really know much about him at the time, and he dropped out really early. I was never a fan of John Edwards, and, let's face it, Hillary Clinton lost all of my respect when she started calling for a gas tax break.

I voted for Obama because I thought he was the best choice. Hopefully, you're wrong, and he will fix the economy :).

I have to eat. Will be on later :).

[QUOTE="lilburtonboy748"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Barack Obama. Let's face it, he definitely made more sense than John McCain on the economy. Actually, looking back, I would have supported Joe Biden in the primaries, but I didn't really know much about him at the time, and he dropped out really early. I was never a fan of John Edwards, and, let's face it, Hillary Clinton lost all of my respect when she started calling for a gas tax break.

chessmaster1989

I voted for Obama because I thought he was the best choice. Hopefully, you're wrong, and he will fix the economy :).

I have to eat. Will be on later :).

34 votes for President Bush... That's entertaining, yet sad at the same time.Stevo_the_gamer

Yeah, Buchanan was definitely worse...

So, whom do you guys think was the worst U.S. president in history?

EDIT: Please do not include Barack Obama, as he has not been president long enough to be judged properly.

34 votes for President Bush... That's entertaining, yet sad at the same time.Stevo_the_gamer

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]34 votes for President Bush... That's entertaining, yet sad at the same time.AlexSays

There are truth in both of these quotes, as well as he's only been gone a week so it really is too soon to tell. But it has to be taken into account how many more American lives Bush effected (there are so many more of us), and that most everything he touched barely/might work (Iraq) or failed. Of course each President from here on out will have to deal with the same issue of a larger US, and as hopeful as I am for Obama, I realize his policies, if they fail will be even more disastrous.

[QUOTE="Jacobistheman"][QUOTE="St_JimmyX"].bogaty

OK, quick primer for you.

Ammendment I: Freedom of speech, press, religion, and petition.

-Bush's admin set up "Free Speech" protest zones basically denying the right of free assembly. People were arrested for the slogans on their T-shirts.

-Signed the Campaign Finance Reform bill which made it illegal for non-profict groups to mention a candidate's name within 60 days of an election. Clear violation of this little bit here :"Congress shall make no law… abridging the freedom of speech."

Ammendment II: Right to keep and bear arms: Bush had National Guard and Blackwater mercenaries forcibly seize firearms from citizens in New Orleans (after he failed to heed any of the Corps of Engineer warnings about the levies).

Ammendment III: Like I said, as far as I know, this is the only one W. didn't violate. He didn't forcibly quarter soldiers in someone's home.

Ammendment IV: Rights to protection vs. unreasonable search as seizure. COINTELPRO, PAtriot Act, "Sneak and peak", warrantless wiretapping, the list of violations is pretty much endless. The FISA court was basically a rubber stamp anyway, so why the need for wiretapping with no record at all?

Ammendment V: Right to due process and right to property: Bush's regime saw secret courts, black site prisons, military tribunals, emminent domain property seizures. Seizure of money people wish to transfer overseas.

Ammendment VI: Rights to speedy trial, right of habeas corpus: Bush set up Guantanimo. No right to hear your accuser, no right to a trial, no right to hear a list of the crimes you're accused of.

Ammendment VII: Right to trial by jury: See above. Additionally, this ammendment should protect plantiffs, but under Bush, the Justice Dept just ignored any case files that they didn't like the looks of. Check out Ellen Marianni's suit against the Bush admin for more info.

Ammendment VIII: Protections against cruel and unusual punishment, excessive bail: Well, in addition to the torture (sorry "harsh interrogation") we have people like US citizen Mohammend Hussein losing his business and spending 18 months in jail for incorrectly filling out a licence application. We have the FCC selectively fining broadcasters (read "liberal" stations) millions of $ whenever a profanity is uttered. Strange they never go after the RNC talking heads when they swear on air.

Ammendment IX: Limits of governmental power: Basically, the government can't come in and just start limiting the "unalienable rights" of the people. Didn't stop Bush though. No fly lists, limitations on emmigration destinations, limitations on movement of your money.

Ammendment X: States' Rights: Let's see, Bush brought in the no child left behind policy, overturned state medicinal marijuana laws, imposed nation wide farm subsidies.

34 votes for President Bush... That's entertaining, yet sad at the same time.Stevo_the_gamer

[QUOTE="bogaty"][QUOTE="Jacobistheman"] Thank you. bogaty you ideas are bogas (bogus). Also what ammendments did he violate. I will admit that the government did violate the constitution with the patriot act, but bush is 1 of 525 that supported it, only 10 people voted against it. Also, Clinton lead to both of the economy collapses that we have had since bush was in office (or at least he was responsible for the governments part), also Clinton got 8 warnings about 9/11, bush only got 2. St_JimmyX

OK, quick primer for you.

Ammendment I: Freedom of speech, press, religion, and petition.

-Bush's admin set up "Free Speech" protest zones basically denying the right of free assembly. People were arrested for the slogans on their T-shirts.

-Signed the Campaign Finance Reform bill which made it illegal for non-profict groups to mention a candidate's name within 60 days of an election. Clear violation of this little bit here :"Congress shall make no law… abridging the freedom of speech."

Ammendment II: Right to keep and bear arms: Bush had National Guard and Blackwater mercenaries forcibly seize firearms from citizens in New Orleans (after he failed to heed any of the Corps of Engineer warnings about the levies).

Ammendment III: Like I said, as far as I know, this is the only one W. didn't violate. He didn't forcibly quarter soldiers in someone's home.

Ammendment IV: Rights to protection vs. unreasonable search as seizure. COINTELPRO, PAtriot Act, "Sneak and peak", warrantless wiretapping, the list of violations is pretty much endless. The FISA court was basically a rubber stamp anyway, so why the need for wiretapping with no record at all?

Ammendment V: Right to due process and right to property: Bush's regime saw secret courts, black site prisons, military tribunals, emminent domain property seizures. Seizure of money people wish to transfer overseas.

Ammendment VI: Rights to speedy trial, right of habeas corpus: Bush set up Guantanimo. No right to hear your accuser, no right to a trial, no right to hear a list of the crimes you're accused of.

Ammendment VII: Right to trial by jury: See above. Additionally, this ammendment should protect plantiffs, but under Bush, the Justice Dept just ignored any case files that they didn't like the looks of. Check out Ellen Marianni's suit against the Bush admin for more info.

Ammendment VIII: Protections against cruel and unusual punishment, excessive bail: Well, in addition to the torture (sorry "harsh interrogation") we have people like US citizen Mohammend Hussein losing his business and spending 18 months in jail for incorrectly filling out a licence application. We have the FCC selectively fining broadcasters (read "liberal" stations) millions of $ whenever a profanity is uttered. Strange they never go after the RNC talking heads when they swear on air.

Ammendment IX: Limits of governmental power: Basically, the government can't come in and just start limiting the "unalienable rights" of the people. Didn't stop Bush though. No fly lists, limitations on emmigration destinations, limitations on movement of your money.

Ammendment X: States' Rights: Let's see, Bush brought in the no child left behind policy, overturned state medicinal marijuana laws, imposed nation wide farm subsidies.

Dude asked me to show which ammendments he violated. I did. As I said, Bush'll go down as the worst president to date. I truly believe the economic collapse that occured under his watch and that we are just beginning to feel the effects of will be worse than the Gread Depression. It'll be enough to bring an end to the era of American superpower status and the US will never fully recover. It'll end up as a shadow of it's former self much like the UK did after two world wars saw it go from the nation's superpower in the late 19th century to one of many middle powers today.

George Bush shouldnt even be on that list.St_JimmyX

[QUOTE="St_JimmyX"]George Bush shouldnt even be on that list.cametall

Carter was ineffective and Grant was just unaware of the scandals in his administration (I guess you could call him incompetent). They were both bad, but definitely neither was the worst.

The only reason why I put George W. Bush on that list was because I knew that a lot of people would choose him.

[QUOTE="St_JimmyX"][QUOTE="bogaty"]

OK, quick primer for you.

Ammendment I: Freedom of speech, press, religion, and petition.

-Bush's admin set up "Free Speech" protest zones basically denying the right of free assembly. People were arrested for the slogans on their T-shirts.

-Signed the Campaign Finance Reform bill which made it illegal for non-profict groups to mention a candidate's name within 60 days of an election. Clear violation of this little bit here :"Congress shall make no law… abridging the freedom of speech."

Ammendment II: Right to keep and bear arms: Bush had National Guard and Blackwater mercenaries forcibly seize firearms from citizens in New Orleans (after he failed to heed any of the Corps of Engineer warnings about the levies).

Ammendment III: Like I said, as far as I know, this is the only one W. didn't violate. He didn't forcibly quarter soldiers in someone's home.

Ammendment IV: Rights to protection vs. unreasonable search as seizure. COINTELPRO, PAtriot Act, "Sneak and peak", warrantless wiretapping, the list of violations is pretty much endless. The FISA court was basically a rubber stamp anyway, so why the need for wiretapping with no record at all?

Ammendment V: Right to due process and right to property: Bush's regime saw secret courts, black site prisons, military tribunals, emminent domain property seizures. Seizure of money people wish to transfer overseas.

Ammendment VI: Rights to speedy trial, right of habeas corpus: Bush set up Guantanimo. No right to hear your accuser, no right to a trial, no right to hear a list of the crimes you're accused of.

Ammendment VII: Right to trial by jury: See above. Additionally, this ammendment should protect plantiffs, but under Bush, the Justice Dept just ignored any case files that they didn't like the looks of. Check out Ellen Marianni's suit against the Bush admin for more info.

Ammendment VIII: Protections against cruel and unusual punishment, excessive bail: Well, in addition to the torture (sorry "harsh interrogation") we have people like US citizen Mohammend Hussein losing his business and spending 18 months in jail for incorrectly filling out a licence application. We have the FCC selectively fining broadcasters (read "liberal" stations) millions of $ whenever a profanity is uttered. Strange they never go after the RNC talking heads when they swear on air.

Ammendment IX: Limits of governmental power: Basically, the government can't come in and just start limiting the "unalienable rights" of the people. Didn't stop Bush though. No fly lists, limitations on emmigration destinations, limitations on movement of your money.

Ammendment X: States' Rights: Let's see, Bush brought in the no child left behind policy, overturned state medicinal marijuana laws, imposed nation wide farm subsidies.

bogaty

Dude asked me to show which ammendments he violated. I did. As I said, Bush'll go down as the worst president to date. I truly believe the economic collapse that occured under his watch and that we are just beginning to feel the effects of will be worse than the Gread Depression. It'll be enough to bring an end to the era of American superpower status and the US will never fully recover. It'll end up as a shadow of it's former self much like the UK did after two world wars saw it go from the nation's superpower in the late 19th century to one of many middle powers today.

Lincoln or FDR, hard to pick between the two. Bush was bad but unfortunately we've had worse.Dalo12345

...joke post? How were Lincoln and FDR the worst presidents:|?

[QUOTE="Dalo12345"]Lincoln or FDR, hard to pick between the two. Bush was bad but unfortunately we've had worse.chessmaster1989

...joke post? How was Lincoln one of the worst presidents:|?

Because of him, you guys can't own slaves, duh.

[QUOTE="Dalo12345"]Lincoln or FDR, hard to pick between the two. Bush was bad but unfortunately we've had worse.chessmaster1989

...joke post? How were Lincoln and FDR the worst presidents:|?

Put down your slanted history text book and think for yourself about it and you might figure it out. Lincoln was a centralist warmongerer who killed more Americans than any other President and FDR was a socialist would-be-tyrant. (I loved how my old history text book in school downplayed Court Packing so much. Just shows you how objective the "professors" are who write these things.) Both of them raped the Constitution they took an oath to upload. Woodrow Wilson (17th Amendment, Federal Reserve Act) and Taft (16th Amendment) would probably be up there, too.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="Dalo12345"]Lincoln or FDR, hard to pick between the two. Bush was bad but unfortunately we've had worse.Dalo12345

...joke post? How were Lincoln and FDR the worst presidents:|?

Put down your slanted history text book and think for yourself about it and you might figure it out. Lincoln was a centralist warmongerer who killed more Americans than any other President and FDR was a socialist would-be-tyrant. (I loved how my old history text book in school downplayed Court Packing so much. Just shows you how objective the "professors" are who write these things.) Both of them raped the Constitution they took an oath to upload. Woodrow Wilson (17th Amendment, Federal Reserve Act) and Taft (16th Amendment) would probably be up there, too.

[QUOTE="Dalo12345"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

...joke post? How were Lincoln and FDR the worst presidents:|?

Maniacc1

Put down your slanted history text book and think for yourself about it and you might figure it out. Lincoln was a centralist warmongerer who killed more Americans than any other President and FDR was a socialist would-be-tyrant. (I loved how my old history text book in school downplayed Court Packing so much. Just shows you how objective the "professors" are who write these things.) Both of them raped the Constitution they took an oath to upload. Woodrow Wilson (17th Amendment, Federal Reserve Act) and Taft (16th Amendment) would probably be up there, too.

Cleveland, Coolidge, and Jefferson would probably be my top 3. (Not necessarily in that order.) Besides Teapot Dome, Harding was also a great president, too. Most other presidents with significant scandals had few or no other redeeming qualities to them; however, Harding does, and as far as I know he himself was not involved in the bribery, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: I have just slapped myself many a time for it but somehow I forgot George Washington. Switch Jefferson out for him.

[QUOTE="bogaty"][QUOTE="St_JimmyX"] Exactly what are you trying to prove here? I've never said Bush didn't violate the Constitution. You don't seem to understand that many past administrations have done the same.St_JimmyX

Dude asked me to show which ammendments he violated. I did. As I said, Bush'll go down as the worst president to date. I truly believe the economic collapse that occured under his watch and that we are just beginning to feel the effects of will be worse than the Gread Depression. It'll be enough to bring an end to the era of American superpower status and the US will never fully recover. It'll end up as a shadow of it's former self much like the UK did after two world wars saw it go from the nation's superpower in the late 19th century to one of many middle powers today.

Sure, Regan pretty much kicked off the whole fiasco with his idiotic "supply-side laffer curve" theory of trickle down economics. Clinton made things worse by signing on to NAFTA and the WTO but it was Bush and his band of thieves who really brought the whole thing off the rails. That weasel Phil Grammand the Enron loophole he snuck into the Patriot Act killed the economy.

Hopefully Obama will come to his senses and boot out the Free Trade thugs in his cabinet, bring back Smoot-Hawley, re-introduce tariffs, fine any employer who hires illegals into bankruptcy and basically act as a new FDR. Only way to straighten out this mess. Sad thing is, thanks to Regan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush, the US doesn't have a manufacturing base to fall back on anymore.

Face it, 8 years of Bush pretty much destroyed the nation. Sitting there saying "well, they did it too!" is a specious argument. The crap hit the fan under W's watch (and mostly due to his idiotic policies) and he did nothing to fix it. Instead he made things worse at every turn.

Worst president ever.

[QUOTE="St_JimmyX"][QUOTE="bogaty"]

Dude asked me to show which ammendments he violated. I did. As I said, Bush'll go down as the worst president to date. I truly believe the economic collapse that occured under his watch and that we are just beginning to feel the effects of will be worse than the Gread Depression. It'll be enough to bring an end to the era of American superpower status and the US will never fully recover. It'll end up as a shadow of it's former self much like the UK did after two world wars saw it go from the nation's superpower in the late 19th century to one of many middle powers today.

bogaty

Sure, Regan pretty much kicked off the whole fiasco with his idiotic "supply-side laffer curve" theory of trickle down economics. Clinton made things worse by signing on to NAFTA and the WTO but it was Bush and his band of thieves who really brought the whole thing off the rails. That weasel Phil Grammand the Enron loophole he snuck into the Patriot Act killed the economy.

Hopefully Obama will come to his senses and boot out the Free Trade thugs in his cabinet, bring back Smoot-Hawley, re-introduce tariffs, fine any employer who hires illegals into bankruptcy and basically act as a new FDR. Only way to straighten out this mess. Sad thing is, thanks to Regan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush, the US doesn't have a manufacturing base to fall back on anymore.

Face it, 8 years of Bush pretty much destroyed the nation. Sitting there saying "well, they did it too!" is a specious argument. The crap hit the fan under W's watch (and mostly due to his idiotic policies) and he did nothing to fix it. Instead he made things worse at every turn.

Worst president ever.

Manufacturing was already on its way out by 1980, I don't know where you arbitrarily pulled out Reagan as the engine to your blame train. And I find it completely hilarious you suggest a new FDR as a solution. His support of unions, regulation, etc. is precisely WHY we have no manufacturing anymore. And, am I reading this right, BRING BACK SMOOT-HAWLEY?? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?

[QUOTE="bogaty"]

[QUOTE="St_JimmyX"] Although the collapse occurred during his administration, it was after decades of poor economic practice. Also to remind you, no superpower remains a superpower forever. America's downfall is inevitable.Dalo12345

Sure, Regan pretty much kicked off the whole fiasco with his idiotic "supply-side laffer curve" theory of trickle down economics. Clinton made things worse by signing on to NAFTA and the WTO but it was Bush and his band of thieves who really brought the whole thing off the rails. That weasel Phil Grammand the Enron loophole he snuck into the Patriot Act killed the economy.

Hopefully Obama will come to his senses and boot out the Free Trade thugs in his cabinet, bring back Smoot-Hawley, re-introduce tariffs, fine any employer who hires illegals into bankruptcy and basically act as a new FDR. Only way to straighten out this mess. Sad thing is, thanks to Regan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush, the US doesn't have a manufacturing base to fall back on anymore.

Face it, 8 years of Bush pretty much destroyed the nation. Sitting there saying "well, they did it too!" is a specious argument. The crap hit the fan under W's watch (and mostly due to his idiotic policies) and he did nothing to fix it. Instead he made things worse at every turn.

Worst president ever.

Manufacturing was already on its way out by 1980, I don't know where you arbitrarily pulled out Reagan as the engine to your blame train. And I find it completely hilarious you suggest a new FDR as a solution. His support of unions, regulation, etc. is precisely WHY we have no manufacturing anymore.

Quite the opposite. Unions, regulations, and tariffs are what built up the middle class and made the US the economic powerhouse it was. When Regan took office, the US was the world's leading creditor nation. It was the world's leading exporter of manufactured goods and importer of raw materials. After 28 years of deregulation, union busting, and "free" trade, the US has gone from the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation. It's gone from being the leading exporter of manufactured goods to being the leading importer. It's now one of the leading exporters of raw materials. Regan and the two Bushes ran up a staggering debt and, thanks to them, the US debt load is now 44% foreign owned. What that means is foreign countries come in, buy up US assets and ship them overseas. The profits that used to stay in the US to be used for wages, reinvestment, tax base to pay for infrastructre, military, education, etc are all gone.

Not surprising to see the rise in FDR character assassination. The richest 1% are terrified that Obama will bring about a new New Deal and reinvigorate the middle class. Here's hoping he follows FDR's example.

I have to wonder, out of all the people who voted "Bush", how many of them were actually paying attention in History class?

Lyndon Johnson and Nixon were pretty bad presidents...Given a choice between all of those listed I would say James Buchanan.

[QUOTE="Dalo12345"][QUOTE="bogaty"]

Sure, Regan pretty much kicked off the whole fiasco with his idiotic "supply-side laffer curve" theory of trickle down economics. Clinton made things worse by signing on to NAFTA and the WTO but it was Bush and his band of thieves who really brought the whole thing off the rails. That weasel Phil Grammand the Enron loophole he snuck into the Patriot Act killed the economy.

Hopefully Obama will come to his senses and boot out the Free Trade thugs in his cabinet, bring back Smoot-Hawley, re-introduce tariffs, fine any employer who hires illegals into bankruptcy and basically act as a new FDR. Only way to straighten out this mess. Sad thing is, thanks to Regan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush, the US doesn't have a manufacturing base to fall back on anymore.

Face it, 8 years of Bush pretty much destroyed the nation. Sitting there saying "well, they did it too!" is a specious argument. The crap hit the fan under W's watch (and mostly due to his idiotic policies) and he did nothing to fix it. Instead he made things worse at every turn.

Worst president ever.

bogaty

Manufacturing was already on its way out by 1980, I don't know where you arbitrarily pulled out Reagan as the engine to your blame train. And I find it completely hilarious you suggest a new FDR as a solution. His support of unions, regulation, etc. is precisely WHY we have no manufacturing anymore.

Quite the opposite. Unions, regulations, and tariffs are what built up the middle class and made the US the economic powerhouse it was. When Regan took office, the US was the world's leading creditor nation. It was the world's leading exporter of manufactured goods and importer of raw materials. After 28 years of deregulation, union busting, and "free" trade, the US has gone from the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation. It's gone from being the leading exporter of manufactured goods to being the leading importer. It's now one of the leading exporters of raw materials. Regan and the two Bushes ran up a staggering debt and, thanks to them, the US debt load is now 44% foreign owned. What that means is foreign countries come in, buy up US assets and ship them overseas. The profits that used to stay in the US to be used for wages, reinvestment, tax base to pay for infrastructre, military, education, etc are all gone.

Not surprising to see the rise in FDR character assassination. The richest 1% are terrified that Obama will bring about a new New Deal and reinvigorate the middle class. Here's hoping he follows FDR's example.

There's a reason that Honda and Toyota would not allow unions in their American plants. There's a reason they weren't running to mommy government for a bailout, while the Big 3, who caved into union demands everytime, were. There's a reason that manufacturing jobs have moved to places where there is little regulation. If you'll notice, the economic principles that FDR put forth have never significantly changed. We're now feeling the fallout of this Keynesian garbage that all started in the 1930s. The government has been and still is heavily involved in our economy, and THAT is the problem. I would also like you to specify a time protectionism actually helped our economy, considering it was a major cause of the Great Depression that your hero FDR "saved" us from.

These "invigorations" of the middle class you speak of were all government-fueled bubbles, and they all popped, just like the one that popped last year.

bush easy oneshawkawla

Oh America has definitely had far worse Presidents.

[QUOTE="shawkawla"]bush easy oneThePlothole

Oh America has definitely had far worse Presidents.

To a 13 year old, probably not.

There's a reason that Honda and Toyota would not allow unions in their American plants. There's a reason they weren't running to mommy government for a bailout, while the Big 3, who caved into union demands everytime, were. There's a reason that manufacturing jobs have moved to places where there is little regulation. If you'll notice, the economic principles that FDR put forth have never significantly changed. We're now feeling the fallout of this Keynesian garbage that all started in the 1930s. The government has been and still is heavily involved in our economy, and THAT is the problem. I would also like you to specify a time protectionism actually helped our economy, considering it was a major cause of the Great Depression that your hero FDR "saved" us from.

These "invigorations" of the middle class you speak of were all government-fueled bubbles, and they all popped, just like the one that popped last year.

Dalo12345

Factually incorrect on every point.

Toyota and Honda would never have existed in the first place had not the Japanese government booted out US automakers in the 1950s and heavily protected the industry.

As for them demanding non-union plants. Well, if we're dumb enough to give it to them, who's fault is that? Further, you know that state had to woo those plants to come in, right? I believe the cost runs each state with a foreign auto plant roughly $200,000 per worker. By getting these sweetheart deals, companies like Toyota are ensuring themselves a workforce made up of a perpetual underclass. They get massive tax breaks from state governments, so money that should be going into state coffers for things like education and infrastructure instead leaves the state and the country and goes straight to Japan.

Secondly, the Big 3 did not cave into unions. In fact, it was the unions who caved into the Big 3's demands. They voluntarily accepted wage cuts and agreed to fund their own healthcare and pensions. The wage disparity between a worker in a union shop and a non union shop is $0.50/hour. The reason the Big 3 failed is precisely because they cut the feet out from under the union members. Amazing that when you pay a pittance, suddenly people can no longer afford to buy your product, isn't it? Same thing's happening in Japan, BTW. They moved their production offshore and, shock of shocks, the Japanese can no longer afford to purchase products and Japanese auto makers are posting losses for the first time in a generation.

As for a time when protectionism actually helped the economy. I'd say roughly the first 200 years of the nation's existence. You know, when tariffs made up the majority of government tax revenue. When protectionist policies ensured that people were employed and, once unionization took hold, could earn a livable wage and drag people up from a Dickensian working class miserable standard to a vibrant and flourishing middle class.

Keynesian economics did wonders for the country. We need a return to it.

As for government intervention causing the Great Depression. Exactly the opposite is true. It was deregulation under Hoover that lead to a speculation bubble in Florida real estate in the 1920s. It was the collapse of that bubble that lead to the great depression. Just as deregulation lead to rampant speculation that caused the crash we're experiencing now.

I have to wonder, out of all the people who voted "Bush", how many of them were actually paying attention in History class?

ThePlothole

I agree with you!!

Herbert Hoover was MUCH worse than Bush.

[QUOTE="Maniacc1"][QUOTE="Dalo12345"]

Put down your slanted history text book and think for yourself about it and you might figure it out. Lincoln was a centralist warmongerer who killed more Americans than any other President and FDR was a socialist would-be-tyrant. (I loved how my old history text book in school downplayed Court Packing so much. Just shows you how objective the "professors" are who write these things.) Both of them raped the Constitution they took an oath to upload. Woodrow Wilson (17th Amendment, Federal Reserve Act) and Taft (16th Amendment) would probably be up there, too.

Dalo12345

Cleveland, Coolidge, and Jefferson would probably be my top 3. (Not necessarily in that order.) Besides Teapot Dome, Harding was also a great president, too. Most other presidents with significant scandals had few or no other redeeming qualities to them; however, Harding does, and as far as I know he himself was not involved in the bribery, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: I have just slapped myself many a time for it but somehow I forgot George Washington. Switch Jefferson out for him.