Would removing israel from the desert cause more peace and evolution in the ME?

It seems by analyzing that the continued backwards cultures of some countries, and or the violent behavior of some of them, are indirectly caused my israel or directly. Removing Israel would bring in more peace maybe and could probably and most likely have their cultures evolve with the rest of the world outside of the violent backwardness as they are now.

What do you think?

It seems by analyzing that the continued backwards cultures of some countries, and or the violent behavior of some of them, are indirectly caused my israel or directly. Removing Israel would bring in more peace maybe and could probably and most likely have their cultures evolve with the rest of the world outside of the violent backwardness as they are now.

What do you think?

StatusShuffle

are you trolling dude? the ME will almost always be violent, with or without Israel....

or they could be more like israelMrPraline

[QUOTE="StatusShuffle"]

It seems by analyzing that the continued backwards cultures of some countries, and or the violent behavior of some of them, are indirectly caused my israel or directly. Removing Israel would bring in more peace maybe and could probably and most likely have their cultures evolve with the rest of the world outside of the violent backwardness as they are now.

What do you think?

kingkong0124

are you trolling dude? the ME will almost always be violent, with or without Israel....

Just like good old US.

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="StatusShuffle"]

It seems by analyzing that the continued backwards cultures of some countries, and or the violent behavior of some of them, are indirectly caused my israel or directly. Removing Israel would bring in more peace maybe and could probably and most likely have their cultures evolve with the rest of the world outside of the violent backwardness as they are now.

What do you think?

MlauTheDaft

are you trolling dude? the ME will almost always be violent, with or without Israel....

Just like good old US.

All countries have violence. Don't compare us to Middle East countries though...;)

[QUOTE="MrPraline"]or they could be more like israelStatusShuffle

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="StatusShuffle"]

It seems by analyzing that the continued backwards cultures of some countries, and or the violent behavior of some of them, are indirectly caused my israel or directly. Removing Israel would bring in more peace maybe and could probably and most likely have their cultures evolve with the rest of the world outside of the violent backwardness as they are now.

What do you think?

MlauTheDaft

are you trolling dude? the ME will almost always be violent, with or without Israel....

Just like good old US.

I do not agree that israel should have ever been created in that area but now that its there we cant just get rid of it. First and foremost Israel's forces and settelers should be removed from palestinan territorys but even then there would be problems. There has been so much hostility between the palestenians and the people of Israel that there will defintly be continued fighting between them for some time.Jerusalem should become its own city state similarly how the vatican is its own state within Italy and it should be open to all races and religion. Israel should forfeit its nuclear weapons and give them up to be decomishined. A consitution simmilar to that of canada or any of the newer more progressive secular countries should be drafted for both Israel and palestine. once this is all done we will be on track to fixing many problems in the middle east but many isssues will remain for a long long time. In the end of the day this tiny space of land (Israel and palestine) have switched countries many times over history . Israel should have never been created specifically for the jews instead a one state holding jews,muslims,chritains,and all relgions and non religions people should have been made.

You don't understand, a lot of conflicts where actually being resolved patiently (ME standrds of patience) before Israel came in. Now its more corruption, more insane, more violent, more disagreements, crop circles, families falling apart, and they are clealry trying to screw palestine over, and at the same time, vice versa, but come on. In a recent paper, israel suggested to oust the president of palestine because he was an obstacle. yeah, like Israel was never an obstacle.StatusShuffle

lolwut?

[QUOTE="MlauTheDaft"]

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

are you trolling dude? the ME will almost always be violent, with or without Israel....

StatusShuffle

Just like good old US.

I was just being a douche towards Kingkong. He took it like a champ ;)

I do not agree that israel should have ever been created in that area but now that its there we cant just get rid of it. First and foremost Israel's forces and settelers should be removed from palestinan territorys but even then there would be problems. There has been so much hostility between the palestenians and the people of Israel that there will defintly be continued fighting between them for some time.Jerusalem should become its own city state similarly how the vatican is its own state within Italy and it should be open to all races and religion. Israel should forfeit its nuclear weapons and give them up to be decomishined. A consitution simmilar to that of canada or any of the newer more progressive secular countries should be drafted for both Israel and palestine. once this is all done we will be on track to fixing many problems in the middle east but many isssues will remain for a long long time. In the end of the day this tiny space of land (Israel and palestine) have switched countries many times over history . Israel should have never been created specifically for the jews instead a one state holding jews,muslims,chritains,and all relgions and non religions people should have been made.

sinpkr

Jerusalem should be open to all races and religion. sinpkr

It already is.

A consitution simmilar to that of canada or any of the newer more progressive secular countries should be drafted for both Israel and palestine. sinpkr

The Israeli public law area is a combination of british, canadian american and new Israeli law. The Israeli 'basic law's are a copy-paste work of parts of the Canadian charter.

[QUOTE="sinpkr"]

Jerusalem should be open to all races and religion. pie-junior

It already is.

sinpkr

Get rid of Israel? The one country in that region that strives to be both socially and technologically progressive? Really????

Get rid of Israel? The one country in that region that strives to be both socially and technologically progressive? Really????

Blaze787

[QUOTE="Blaze787"]

Get rid of Israel? The one country in that region that strives to be both socially and technologically progressive? Really????

GazaAli

:lol: nice post

Not its not. How many Muslims can go and pray in Al-Aqsa mosque? You know I try to be unbiased and objective as much as I can, but to claim that Israel is keeping Jerusalem open is absurd.

GazaAli

Jeruslaem is not the Al-aqsa mosque.

Regarding Al-aqsa, and the entire temple mount area- It's all controlled by the muslim 'Wakef'.

Restrictions on muslim entrance to the mosque exist for prayers in the wailing wall and other sites (since they are all meters from each other). It's a security measure meant to avoid religious clashes between prayers. It's not some apartheid-esque construction.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]Not its not. How many Muslims can go and pray in Al-Aqsa mosque? You know I try to be unbiased and objective as much as I can, but to claim that Israel is keeping Jerusalem open is absurd.

pie-junior

Jeruslaem is not the Al-aqsa mosque.

Regarding Al-aqsa, and the entire temple mount area- It's all controlled by the muslim 'Wakef'.

Restrictions on muslim entrance to the mosque exist for prayers in the wailing wall and other sites (since they are all meters from each other). It's a security measure meant to avoid religious clashes between prayers. It's not some apartheid-esque construction.

You can't remove the Jews, They are everywhere in the Middle East. If you car breaks down, Blame a Jew. If your leader loses an election, Blame the Jews. If you lose your TV remote, Blame the Jews. It's ME culture. Jews are like Gremlins, They are everywhere causing all sorts of problems.

In short, The Jews and Israel are just an age old convenient excuse for all their problems. You disband Israel and relocate the population you will only end up with other groups fighting over the land. People have been killing each other over control of that land for 3000 years, The divine association the 3 Abrahamic religions have with such a specific patch of land is the issue, Not Israel.

removing it now wouldn't really solve any of the major problems in the region. An agreed upon peace settlement between the Israeli's and Palestinians would be an enormous positive forward step to ending the long cold war in the region. It would give Arab states in the region one big less reason to move past wanting to wipe Israel out. I know i'm being optimistic, but i don't think i'm being unreasonable either.

I do still think though that had Israel never been formed in the 1940's, we would be living with a very different middle east. Israel for decades now has been a lightning rod for Islamists to rally around. If the modern state of Israel didn't exist in the first place, you would see Arab rivalries take front stage in the region, but i doubt it would of lasted as long. It would of also given the liberal seculars more breathing room. BECAUSE, Israel is a mostly secular state that is allied with the West (pre-eminently the USA) anything that relates to Israel is deemed evil by the Islamists, and because of the treatment of the Palestinians, the military defeats, and bruised egos deepens the hatred and inability to rise.

Gamal Abdul Nasser, Hafez Assad and other dictators in the region ruled by secular law, Pan-Arabism was a very popular ideal back in the 1940's-1967. After the 6 day war, the idea of pan-arabism and what credbility secularists, liberals, and socialists had in the region at the time.

make no mistake Islamism would still exist in some capacity, the region would still be a battleground for proxy wars between the USA and USSR for the Cold War and control of the oil flow. I just do not think you would see the skyrocket adherence to Islamism as we see it today, it'd meander along with all the other ideologies because there no lightning rod strong enough and visible enough to rally the people. I just imagine Islamism would of looked (and will look in the future) like the social conservatives, but with a bigger bent on justifying their stances from the Quran and Sunnah (mostly Sunnah, as without it you really can't have Shariah Law).

Only hope now is that the older generations pass on, new leaders rise and will take new risks to change the face of the region for the better. technology like the internet and satellite connection are still - right now - changing the region. That goes for everyone, the Arabs, Iranians, and Israeli's.

I like the idea of Pan-Arabism, even though it's basically just a dream. I am not however for Pan-Islamism, i view that more of a nightmare then a dream.

and if anyone is offended by that i'm sorry. I still maintain as well that had the House of Saud never made their allegiance with the Abdul Wahab (Wahabi, or Salafi as Saudi's refer to it) three things would of happened. Saudi Arabia would of never formed as it did, and if it did form it might very well look like the unstable secular Arab states, OR it would of looked like the Gulf states today, much like Dubai, Qatar and so on. I would of preferred the third option.

but alas that's history... and that's my take on the what if/would of/could of.

You can't remove the Jews, They are everywhere in the Middle East. If you car breaks down, Blame a Jew. If your leader loses an election, Blame the Jews. If you lose your TV remote, Blame the Jews. It's ME culture. Jews are like Gremlins, They are everywhere causing all sorts of problems.

In short, The Jews and Israel are just an age old convenient excuse for all their problems. You disband Israel and relocate the population you will only end up with other groups fighting over the land. People have been killing each other over control of that land for 3000 years, The divine association the 3 Abrahamic religions have with such a specific patch of land is the issue, Not Israel.

mattisgod01

QFT

Well to keep Jerusalem open to all religions mean to allow people from all religions to visit their places of prayer freely, at least in my book. I do get there have to be some strict security measures in that area, but its still way too much and a lot of them are meant to disturb Palestinian visitors and prayers.GazaAli

Ali,

I don't know if you have ever been to the temple mount area, but it's prob the most volatile area in the world. It's a combination of some of Judaism's, Islam's and christianity's holiest sites built on top of each other.

There are, literally, weekly violent clashes between Jewish and muslim worshippers and daily acts of vandalism. If the IDF did not impose regulation on entrance to this very small perimeter through specific hours of the day- there would be a never ending Intifadah.

but its still way too much and a lot of them are meant to disturb Palestinian visitors and prayers.

Meant to accomplish, what exactly?

Only hope now is that the older generations pass on...That goes for everyone, the Arabs, Iranians, and Israeli's.

SaudiFury

Oh god no.

If we can have the old people back, that would be lovely.

If we can have the old people back, that would be lovely.pie-junior

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] Well to keep Jerusalem open to all religions mean to allow people from all religions to visit their places of prayer freely, at least in my book. I do get there have to be some strict security measures in that area, but its still way too much and a lot of them are meant to disturb Palestinian visitors and prayers.pie-junior

Ali,

I don't know if you have ever been to the temple mount area, but it's prob the most volatile area in the world. It's a combination of some of Judaism's, Islam's and christianity's holiest sites built on top of each other.

There are, literally, weekly violent clashes between Jewish and muslim worshippers and daily acts of vandalism. If the IDF did not impose regulation on entrance to this very small perimeter through specific hours of the day- there would be a never ending Intifadah.

but its still way too much and a lot of them are meant to disturb Palestinian visitors and prayers.

Meant to accomplish, what exactly?

[QUOTE="pie-junior"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]Not its not. How many Muslims can go and pray in Al-Aqsa mosque? You know I try to be unbiased and objective as much as I can, but to claim that Israel is keeping Jerusalem open is absurd.

GazaAli

Jeruslaem is not the Al-aqsa mosque.

Regarding Al-aqsa, and the entire temple mount area- It's all controlled by the muslim 'Wakef'.

Restrictions on muslim entrance to the mosque exist for prayers in the wailing wall and other sites (since they are all meters from each other). It's a security measure meant to avoid religious clashes between prayers. It's not some apartheid-esque construction.

WAIT- I just realized i'm talking with someone living in Gaza and open for Hamas 'interpretation' of events.

just to be clear. NON-MUSLIM worshippers are the ones with regulated access, on a regular basis (to the entire temple mount area, minus the West wall).

MUSLIM worshippers are the ones with regular free access, barring special occassions and a decree from the Israeli government. AGAIN- the Muslim Wakef is in charge of the temple mount, by a 40 y/o concession on part of Israel.

There is no helping that region. Such a lost cause and such an embarrassment. When middle eastern people come to North America and live here they come off as peaceful people. Set in their ways.. but peaceful. I just don't understand why it's so different over there.

[QUOTE="MrPraline"]or they could be more like israelStatusShuffle

[QUOTE="StatusShuffle"]

It seems by analyzing that the continued backwards cultures of some countries, and or the violent behavior of some of them, are indirectly caused my israel or directly. Removing Israel would bring in more peace maybe and could probably and most likely have their cultures evolve with the rest of the world outside of the violent backwardness as they are now.

What do you think?

kingkong0124

are you trolling dude? the ME will almost always be violent, with or without Israel....

I think not having a holy land would solve a lot of problems...not all of them, but a good portion of them.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]

Jeruslaem is not the Al-aqsa mosque.

Regarding Al-aqsa, and the entire temple mount area- It's all controlled by the muslim 'Wakef'.

Restrictions on muslim entrance to the mosque exist for prayers in the wailing wall and other sites (since they are all meters from each other). It's a security measure meant to avoid religious clashes between prayers. It's not some apartheid-esque construction.

pie-junior

WAIT- I just realized i'm talking with someone living in Gaza and open for Hamas 'interpretation' of events.

just to be clear. NON-MUSLIM worshippers are the ones with regulated access, on a regular basis (to the entire temple mount area, minus the West wall).

MUSLIM worshippers are the ones with regular free access, barring special occassions and a decree from the Israeli government. AGAIN- the Muslim Wakef is in charge of the temple mount, by a 40 y/o concession on part of Israel.

I'm not pro Hamas whatsoevver, I'm the complete opposite. It has always been like this, way before Hamas comes into power. You need a permit to pass Erez crosspoint that separates Gaza from the West Bank. The Israeli government handles this, and for people from Gaza, its so limited and beruecratic. For people in the west bank, they still need a permit to enter Jerusalem, but they move freely within the west bank, minus the countless checkpoints.

That region was already having its issues well before Israel was founded. I dont think it's Israel that's holding it back. You could make the argument for the Palestinians, but the rest of the ME has no excuse.

Israel is one of the most technologically and culturally advanced areas in the region. I most certainly believe some of their policies as a nation are reprehensible, but you're deluding yourself if you believe Israel is the sole (or even primary) nation holding the rest of the Middle East in its technological and social rut. SilentFireX

I'm not pro Hamas whatsoevver, I'm the complete opposite. It has always been like this, way before Hamas comes into power. You need a permit to pass Erez crosspoint that separates Gaza from the West Bank. The Israeli government handles this, and for people from Gaza, its so limited and beruecratic. For people in the west bank, they still need a permit to enter Jerusalem, but they move freely within the west bank, minus the countless checkpoints.

GazaAli

You're, of course, correct. I meant the Temple mount area, alone. I just wanted to make myself clear in an attempt to show spite isn't really an issue. Muslims get the preferential treatment regarding access to the temple mount.

One of the gripes the global muslim brotherhood has with Israel is its, so called, exclusion of muslims from Al-aqsa and the Jewish conspiracy to destroy it. It seemed natural that people wouldn't know about the entrance policies.

All of what I said is naturally irrelevant if you can't get access inside Israel and Jerusalem, as a Gazan.

The causes of many of the conflicts in the region predate Israel by centuries.chessmaster1989

[QUOTE="SilentFireX"]Israel is one of the most technologically and culturally advanced areas in the region. I most certainly believe some of their policies as a nation are reprehensible, but you're deluding yourself if you believe Israel is the sole (or even primary) nation holding the rest of the Middle East in its technological and social rut. Allthishate

Getting rid of Iran would do a lot more for the middle east. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq....all are being destroyed with Iranian influence.

Getting rid of Iran would do a lot more for the middle east. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq....all are being destroyed with Iranian influence.

BossPerson

The causes of many of the conflicts in the region predate Israel by centuries.chessmaster1989

Getting rid of Iran would do a lot more for the middle east. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq....all are being destroyed with Iranian influence.

BossPerson