Would removing israel from the desert cause more peace and evolution in the ME?

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="SaudiFury"] I've heard this talk all my life, and i'd be willing to play devil's advocate and push a theological argument point for point.

but i won't bother because that isn't what this thread is about. but your entire response is what i've heard ad nauseum by Muslim users on all over internet forums, by Imam's at Mosque's and at interfaith meetings, by leaders of Islamic nations (like King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia), and Islamic apologists writers like Reza Aslan, and Tariq Ramadan.

Defend the religion, distance it, say it does not say these things. Say that the terrorists and extremists are consistently misquoting and misunderstanding the Quran and Hadiths.

If i could be so polemic, i would dare say that this one book, just mere fact of how it can be misquoted and misunderstood is worse then the nuclear bomb. By worst accounts 250,000 people died from the atomic blasts on Japan in WWII. With this one book, you have the subjugation of millions of people by the absolutist dictatorship of ulema or ayatollah's. The misquoted/misunderstood justification of murdering innocent civilians. the justification for torture, mutilation, honor killing of men and women. the justification of marrying (selling off i'd argue) off little girls to old men. justification of killing people who lose faith, and who don't fornicate exactly the way the book says is ok.

Think about that for a moment, what i've said happens throughout the Muslim world, and often with the same religious justification. Either they are misunderstanding religion for their own ends, or they are getting it right (i happen to think it's both).

but ok, Allthishate.... i'll go along with this same argument. what do you purpose to change about it in your small world, what would you support to stop such destructive behaviors? and i ask this in honesty to you, because i want alternatives, not explanations. not excuses.

SaudiFury

well, in the Jewish world, the scripture is the word of God, but things are sometimes interpreted, and what humans who were close to God said, is equally valid (ie, I don't think there is a commandment against having a monarchy, but because Moses was against it, the prophet Samuel did not want to create a monarchy)

the other difference I think is that at its core, Christianity is about the individual , as you said, Jesus did not rule a country, and frankly his message was meant for everybody. In the Jewish world, its about society and government as well , in a sense, Judaism is not for the individual or the state , but about a society or a people (remember this was at the time when each people had their own religion, there was no world spanning religion at the time, just alot of local cults)

the religious illiteracy is what I would call the grey area of belief, what Ive noticed in the west is that people tend to fall into extremes, they are either very religious, or they do not believe in anything, sure they celebrate Christmas, but its not for the religious or traditional reasons, its for the "get drunk and get presents" reason. as you said, in Islam , there are alot of people who essentially pick and choose, and in the Jewish world, its actually divided by geography.

if you were to go to the US or UK , Jews would be like the Christians, thats partially why reform Judaism exists , its a way for people to be religious while still being liberal about (otherwise they would be athiests)

in Israel on the other hand, most people tend to be in the grey area, not too many people know the fine print, but I would say that 9/10 people have their brit millah , bar/bat mitzva, a traditional Jewish wedding or funeral etc, keep kosher etc, and the celebration of holidays, for the traditional reasons. and yet not many could quote too many passages from the bible.

thats why reform Judaism really doesn't exist much in Israel , simply because people do not understand the need for it, alot of people (including people who call themselves secularists) have issues understanding things like female rabbis and no gender segregation in the synagouge, while being against it in public places.

its also why you see alot of men who wear skullcaps or women that dress more modestly despite watching TV and driving their cars on the Sabbath

This probably will offend or garner a'lot of hostilities. This is all speculation, and I will be the first to admit that I am not ME expert but here goes: Let Iran actually develop a nuclear missle. No they won't bomb us. No they won't bomb Israel. When was the last time Iran actually invaded another country? When was the last time Israel fought in a war? The only good thing about nuclear proliferation is the peace it creates between the great powers of the world, and other nuclear armed countries. Sure tensions run high, but N. Korea hasn't launched a nuke. India and Pakistan havn't blown eachother to oblivion. I think its safe to say that most governments with nukes know they are only to be used as a last resort or not at all. Think about it, that's why the cold war was one proxy war after another. Someone will think twice before trying to take your house if they know you have the ability to defend yourself. With that said, I don't support nuclear proliferation but, when looked at objectively it kinda makes you think

The reality is: The U.S. has let it self become Israel's keeper. Hence Israel will never be checked by an opposing country. America will continue to sell weapons to Israel, Turky, Saudi Arabia etc.. There will never be stability in the ME for geopolical reasons as well as cultural. Look at Afghanistan's history of resistence. Especially when the most powerful nation on Earth. Is playing at building countries for corporate gain, and letting China know that we are at their doorstep. Wow this is really long winded sorry guys. So to answer your question: No. In the grand spectrum of things Israel plays a role in the game, but there are other players as well.

This probably will offend or garner a'lot of hostilities. This is all speculation, and I will be the first to admit that I am not ME expert but here goes: Let Iran actually develop a nuclear missle. No they won't bomb us. No they won't bomb Israel. When was the last time Iran actually invaded another country? When was the last time Israel fought in a war? The only good thing about nuclear proliferation is the peace it creates between the great powers of the world, and other nuclear armed countries. Sure tensions run high, but N. Korea hasn't launched a nuke. India and Pakistan havn't blown eachother to oblivion. I think its safe to say that most governments with nukes know they are only to be used as a last resort or not at all. Think about it, that's why the cold war was one proxy war after another. Someone will think twice before trying to take your house if they know you have the ability to defend yourself. With that said, I don't support nuclear proliferation but, when looked at objectively it kinda makes you think

The reality is: The U.S. has let it self become Israel's keeper. Hence Israel will never be checked by an opposing country. America will continue to sell weapons to Israel, Turky, Saudi Arabia etc.. There will never be stability in the ME for geopolical reasons as well as cultural. Look at Afghanistan's history of resistence. Especially when the most powerful nation on Earth. Is playing at building countries for corporate gain, and letting China know that we are at their doorstep. Wow this is really long winded sorry guys. So to answer your question: No. In the grand spectrum of things Israel plays a role in the game, but there are other players as well.

FutonSentinal62