Would you cease to believe in you're religion if...

You could replace "aliens" with "cows" or "trees" in your argument. Is your argument supposed to have some sort of logical point?

thegerg

What? We're talking about aliens right now silly goose; not cows or trees. I wouldn't say "logical." I'm just speculating I suppose. :P

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="LiftedHeadshot"]If you believe in math then you believe in aliens. Religion is too irrational for me to believe in.MystikFollower

If you believe in math, you have no ****ing clue whether or not there are aliens. Physicists are leaning towards the idea that the universe is finite in size. Without knowing the odds regarding abiogenesis, the problem is then incalculable.

Astronomers also just recently found that there are about 200 Sextillion more stars in the Universe than we originally thought, and Red dwarfs (which are basically immortal since they can live far longer than the Universe has even existed so far) make up the great majority. If Life was able to form here to this extent over the course of 14 billion years, then it's probably happened in quite a few other places.

That depends on the likelihood of the process of abiogenesis occurring. Without knowing that, it simply is flat out impossible to say that it "probably" occurred elsewhere.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Why not God? What precisely does "image" mean? Could not the aliens also be made in God's image?

LikeHaterade

Would you give me some examples on other avenues God could have meant by the term "image?" And your second sentence is a fair point.

Physical appearance seems quite symbolic as God is a supernatural being. I'm leaning towards consciousness or perhaps the existence of an eternal "soul."

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

I still think you're taking this "made us in his image" business far to literally. God's likeness that we were allegedly made in is Consciousness, not physical appearance.

LikeHaterade

I'm confused. An image of "consciousness?" There has never been a single person born that was the exact same as someone else.

Why do you keep taking "image" as a literal description. It's not like God xeroxed himself and made tons of copies.... What I mean, is that God gave humans self awareness (or rather Nature gave humans self awareness through evolution if you prefer those terms). God gave us consciousness and since God supposedly is PURE consciousness, that's the likeness that we were made in. Not any literal image or physical appearance. That has nothing to do with the image and likeness of God. The likeness of God is self awareness.

That depends on the likelihood of the process of abiogenesis occurring. Without knowing that, it simply is flat out impossible to say that it "probably" occurred elsewhere.

coolbeans90

That's a pretty slippery slope. Based off of the ingredients that are required for life, I'd say it's completely rational to believe that extra-terrestrials do exist. NASA's findings put this into a whole new perspective as well.

You're speculating what? You seem to be trying to make the point that finding a creature that was not created in a god's image would disprove the existence of a god to someone who thinks that they were made in a god's image. Those people already know that creatures exist that were not made in their god's image, why would the discovery of another one change anything?

thegerg

Well, I was referring to cognitive creatures. If aliens show up tomorrow and they find out that God created us in his image and not them, they're probably going to be pissed.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

That depends on the likelihood of the process of abiogenesis occurring. Without knowing that, it simply is flat out impossible to say that it "probably" occurred elsewhere.

LikeHaterade

That's a pretty slippery slope. Based off of the ingredients that are required for life, I'd say it's completely rational to believe that extra-terrestrials do exist. NASA's findings put this into a whole new perspective as well.

What the necessary ingredients for life to form are, and how likely is it to form are significantly more important factors to consider. Without knowing those, one cannot calculate whether or not life formed, and survivability becomes a moot point.

[QUOTE="thegerg"]

You're speculating what? You seem to be trying to make the point that finding a creature that was not created in a god's image would disprove the existence of a god to someone who thinks that they were made in a god's image. Those people already know that creatures exist that were not made in their god's image, why would the discovery of another one change anything?

LikeHaterade

Well, I was referring to cognitive creatures. If aliens show up tomorrow and they find out that God created us in his image and not them, they're probably going to be pissed.

Any intelligent lifeforms out there probably have their own completely different set of ideas and belief systems surrounding God and how he created them.

Any intelligent lifeforms out there probably have their own completely different set of ideas and belief systems surrounding God and how he created them.

MystikFollower

I hope you're wrong. I'd rather them be atheists, because they could believe in a God and see us as abominations; and destroy us. :(

How would the anger of one creature disprove the existence of a god to another?

thegerg

I'm not sure what you're saying, but I will tell you that I was just kidding.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Any intelligent lifeforms out there probably have their own completely different set of ideas and belief systems surrounding God and how he created them.

LikeHaterade

I hope you're wrong. I'd rather them be atheists, because they could believe in a God and see us as abominations; and destroy us. :(

They probably wouldn't destroy us... If aliens have the advanced knowledge and technology to travel lightyears across the cosmos just to see us, I doubt they'd see us as any threat. In fact I'm inclined to believe Hawking's stance on the subject; that they'd likely just enslave us and treat us somewhat similar to how we treated the natives we discovered when coming to America and claiming it as ours.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

I'm not sure what you're saying,

thegerg

Then go back and reread the thread. It's there in plain English.

but I will tell you that I was just kidding.

LikeHaterade

Really? You seemed to be arguing your point for 4 pages. It's OK to admit that you didn't think your position out too well. We won't judge.

I was kidding about the "Aliens being pissed" deal. Certainly not my original point.

It has already been explained to you how your original point makes no sense. Again: There are already creatures known to exist which are not created in a god's image, but the existence of those creatures does not disprove a god. Finding one more of those creatures wouldn't disprove a god.

thegerg

It seems a little selfish, but it certainly is a fair point.

[QUOTE="Human-after-all"]

The bible also didn't mention there was another 2 continents on the other side of the planet with people on them, but that doesn't change anything either.

thegerg

Is the existence of foreign continents not mentioned in the Bible supposed to invalidate the Bible in some way?

Considering humans are greedy and lie often. You think the story 2000+ years later was anything like the original stories told? I have no idea but I know I would start a religion if I knew it would make me filthy rich and powerful. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and back in the day the church was the ultimate power.

In my religion, it clearly states that there is life not only on Earth.Nero_Viper

Also, there's quite a number of people who believe many of the encounters with "Angels" in the Bible, including the ascension of certain people into the sky, are references to encounters with alien life and that those accounts (mainly Ezekiel) of ascending into the heavens are our ancestor's perception of an alien abduction. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise or shock me.

It has already been explained to you how your original point makes no sense. Again: There are already creatures known to exist which are not created in a god's image, but the existence of those creatures does not disprove a god. Finding one more of those creatures wouldn't disprove a god.

thegerg

[QUOTE="Human-after-all"] Nope it just proves how ignorant the people were that made the bible. Why would I believe the words of primitive humans 2000+ years later? thegerg

New discoveries about the world around us are being made every day. Should we wake up every morning and disbelieve what we believed yesterday? You're being silly.

[QUOTE="thegerg"]

[QUOTE="Human-after-all"]

The bible also didn't mention there was another 2 continents on the other side of the planet with people on them, but that doesn't change anything either.

Human-after-all

Is the existence of foreign continents not mentioned in the Bible supposed to invalidate the Bible in some way?

Considering humans are greedy and lie often. You think the story 2000+ years later was anything like the original stories told? I have no idea but I know I would start a religion if I knew it would make me filthy rich and powerful. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and back in the day the church was the ultimate power.

"if I knew it would make me filthy rich and powerful"

Many of the apostles were actually executed and expected it and were imprisioned as well. And about your other comments, the Bible wouldnt mention other continents since that wasnt the focus point of the Bible. Also the Bible isnt a map, it's a historical document on what occured with God and his people.

You asked "you think the story 2000+ years later was anything like the original stories told?"

Since there is God and he wants the story and faith of him to be told, then yes.

[QUOTE="gaming25"] You keep on contradicting yourself hen you say that "creatures known to exist which are not created in a god's image" and then say that "wouldn't disprove a god". thegerg

How do those statements contradict eachother?

Are you referring to human beings only or something like that?gaming25

Am I referring to only human beings when I say "creatures"? No, I am not.

What? Your question makes no sense.

thegerg

[QUOTE="Human-after-all"]

[QUOTE="thegerg"]

Is the existence of foreign continents not mentioned in the Bible supposed to invalidate the Bible in some way?

gaming25

Considering humans are greedy and lie often. You think the story 2000+ years later was anything like the original stories told? I have no idea but I know I would start a religion if I knew it would make me filthy rich and powerful. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and back in the day the church was the ultimate power.

"if I knew it would make me filthy rich and powerful"

Many of the apostles were actually executed and expected it and were imprisioned as well. And about your other comments, the Bible wouldnt mention other continents since that wasnt the focus point of the Bible. Also the Bible isnt a map, it's a historical document on what occured with God and his people.

You asked "you think the story 2000+ years later was anything like the original stories told?"

Since there is God and he wants the story and faith of him to be told, then yes.

I am not stating whether or not the bible needs to say there are other continents, I know it isn't a map. I am saying it was made by people with far less knowledge then we have now. It's not like they were busy discovering how the universe works like Ptolemy or Newton.

Napoleon once said "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet", something along those lines. Religion has been a very large powerhouse in the world for a very long time. Religion has been a powerhouse long before the apostles were part of any picture.

What makes your belief system the "one" and the Inca or Aztec wrong on the other side of the world? Because you have mystical nothing known as "faith"? Give me a break.

[QUOTE="gaming25"]

[QUOTE="Human-after-all"] Nope it just proves how ignorant the people were that made the bible and I don't mean that in a mean way. I mean they just have significantly less knowledge then we do now. Why would I believe the words of primitive humans 2000+ years later? I am not looking for invalidation I am looking as to how illogical it is to base my belief system in scripture by humans who didn't even know what existed on the other side of the planet, let alone what exists in the universe.

Considering humans are greedy and lie often. You think the story 2000+ years later was anything like the original stories told? I have no idea but I know I would start a religion if I knew it would make me filthy rich and powerful. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and back in the day the church was the ultimate power.

Human-after-all

"if I knew it would make me filthy rich and powerful"

Many of the apostles were actually executed and expected it and were imprisioned as well. And about your other comments, the Bible wouldnt mention other continents since that wasnt the focus point of the Bible. Also the Bible isnt a map, it's a historical document on what occured with God and his people.

You asked "you think the story 2000+ years later was anything like the original stories told?"

Since there is God and he wants the story and faith of him to be told, then yes.

Faith isnt "nothing". http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/faith.html?zoom_highlight=faith

And my belief system is the "one" because it simply is the greatest.

[QUOTE="gaming25"]

So are you saying that God exists but those creatures wouldnt be created in God's image?

thegerg

No, I am not saying whether or not a god exists, or whether or not aliens created in his image exist. I am simply saying that the existence of aliens doesn't disprove that man was greated in a god's image or that a god exists. How is this so hard for you to understand?

Again, how was I contradicing myself? Please support your accusations.

Since you said "no", that clarifies what I was asking. I wasnt trying to offend you, just asking you what you meant.

I am not stating whether or not the bible needs to say there are other continents, I know it isn't a map. I am saying it was made by people with far less knowledge then we have now. Napoleon once said "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet", something along those lines. Religion has been a very large powerhouse in the world for a very long time. Religion has been a powerhouse long before the apostles were part of any picture. What makes your belief system the "one" and the Inca or Aztec wrong? Because you have mystical nothing known as "faith"? Give me a break. Human-after-all

Faith isnt "nothing". http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/faith.html?zoom_highlight=faith

And my belief system is the "one" because it simply is the greatest.

[QUOTE="Human-after-all"][QUOTE="gaming25"]

Faith isnt "nothing". http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/faith.html?zoom_highlight=faith

And my belief system is the "one" because it simply is the greatest.

gaming25

What has faith in the bible done for anyone? Go worship the sun because its the single biggest reason you're even here right now and that's a fact.

Doubt it. But I'm not a firm believer in my faith anymore anyway.

^^ Your overall attitude and lack of an open mind is what makes you come off as hostile.jak275

But religious debating is a dime a dozen topic on OT so I tend to take a particular stance.

[QUOTE="thegerg"]

[QUOTE="Human-after-all"] Nope it just proves how ignorant the people were that made the bible. Why would I believe the words of primitive humans 2000+ years later? Human-after-all

New discoveries about the world around us are being made every day. Should we wake up every morning and disbelieve what we believed yesterday? You're being silly.