Your thought on the negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] Let's not play semantics here. Whether Judaism is a religion or an ethnicity is not the subject of discussion here. What matters is that we have a state that affiliates itself with a religion or an ethnicity and there are people of great influence and power in the name of that religion or ethnicity.GazaAli

But the case here is that it does not officially affiliate itself with a religion. To a large extent an ethnicity yes, but not religion. There are definitely powerful figures in Israeli politics advocating at the very least theocratic influences. But can you really judge a country based on minority parties not in government? Then alot of states I'm sure could be considered theocratic, racist, facist, nazi, communist and other bad words.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] Let's be honest for a moment. I do acknowledge the existence of Israel as a reality, but no I will never acknowledge that it had that right 65 years ago. And with that same honesty we all do ask of the Palestinians to accept such a reality and stop committing "violence", be we all do so because Israel is a powerful state which has the U.S as its bitch, not because any other state or nation in such situation would not commit this violence.GazaAli

I do not think that the Palestinians are completely unjustified in commiting violence but I definitely think Israel had the right to declare their independence 65 years ago. Also while it's true that USA is Israel's bitch it's also pretty much the only state that is. If Israel is so so powerful how come it's the Palestinians are even able to refuse to negotiate? I'm not even saying they are not right to do so. But such a "weak" party should really be begging Israel to come and talk instead of being completely crushed. Yes Israel is definitely much more powerful militarily, but politically? Not necessarily.

oh and long time no see, hope all is well etc. :3

Well I definitely understand that. But Israelis feel kinda the same way. It's probably one of the most patriotic country of the world. Yet it is Israel who begs the Palestinians to come, seriously they released murderers just for them to COME to the negotiations. Again while understand all that honour and patriotism stuff, if Palestinians were really THAT much weaker politically it wouldn't matter one bit since Israel would just steamroll them, as they are able to do militarily. Did Germany have anything to say at the versaille conference? No (I think). Or after WWII? If you're the winner you make the rules and the losers should be happy that you're even willing to negotiate. The strong winner doesn't offer freedom of murderers so that the weak loser will come. So at the very least there is a much smaller gap from this aspect in terms of power.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

I do not think that the Palestinians are completely unjustified in commiting violence but I definitely think Israel had the right to declare their independence 65 years ago. Also while it's true that USA is Israel's bitch it's also pretty much the only state that is. If Israel is so so powerful how come it's the Palestinians are even able to refuse to negotiate? I'm not even saying they are not right to do so. But such a "weak" party should really be begging Israel to come and talk instead of being completely crushed. Yes Israel is definitely much more powerful militarily, but politically? Not necessarily.

 

oh and long time no see, hope all is well etc. :3

themajormayor

Well I definitely understand that. But Israelis feel kinda the same way. It's probably one of the most patriotic country of the world. Yet it is Israel who begs the Palestinians to come, seriously they released murderers just for them to COME to the negotiations. Again while understand all that honour and patriotism stuff, if Palestinians were really THAT much weaker politically it wouldn't matter one bit since Israel would just steamroll them, as they are able to do militarily. Did Germany have anything to say at the versaille conference? No (I think). Or after WWII? If you're the winner you make the rules and the losers should be happy that you're even willing to negotiate. The strong winner doesn't offer freedom of murderers so that the weak loser will come. So at the very least there is a much smaller gap from this aspect in terms of power.

And THEN the Palestinians make demands..lol! They need to just accept what they are offered otherwise they will just be colonized and annexed over time.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

But the case here is that it does not officially affiliate itself with a religion. To a large extent an ethnicity yes, but not religion. There are definitely powerful figures in Israeli politics advocating at the very least theocratic influences. But can you really judge a country based on minority parties not in government? Then alot of states I'm sure could be considered theocratic, racist, facist, nazi, communist and other bad words.

KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] Let's not play semantics here. Whether Judaism is a religion or an ethnicity is not the subject of discussion here. What matters is that we have a state that affiliates itself with a religion or an ethnicity and there are people of great influence and power in the name of that religion or ethnicity.GazaAli

But the case here is that it does not officially affiliate itself with a religion. To a large extent an ethnicity yes, but not religion. There are definitely powerful figures in Israeli politics advocating at the very least theocratic influences. But can you really judge a country based on minority parties not in government? Then alot of states I'm sure could be considered theocratic, racist, facist, nazi, communist and other bad words.

They're about 20%. That's a minority no matter how you look at it.

They are indeed of great power since they are a balance of power. It's a common phenomenon in politics. 

While it's true that the left has greatly deterioated, but it's mostly not to the benifit of religious parties, right-wing doesn't neccesarily mean religious. The four biggest parties right now are all secular. Likud is secular, Israel beiteinu is extremely secular, yesh atid is extremely secular and the labour party is secular.

Then why did not much change when the left was in power, which was for the majority of the state's existence?

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] You have to understand the mentality of Palestinians and their state of mind. We view ourselves as the victims who were kicked out and ethnically cleansed 65 years ago. Great injustice and humiliation were inflicted to us from Israel and the world by standing still while all of this happened to us and is still happening to us. We also view that we are the ones with the true right to this land. Consequently, and out of patriotism and honor, we have to stand strong and struggle for freedom and our rights. When you look at it from this angel you'll understand why we play the tough guy and won't sit for negotiations. And Israel is as politically strong as it is militarily... Hi :3KC_Hokie

Well I definitely understand that. But Israelis feel kinda the same way. It's probably one of the most patriotic country of the world. Yet it is Israel who begs the Palestinians to come, seriously they released murderers just for them to COME to the negotiations. Again while understand all that honour and patriotism stuff, if Palestinians were really THAT much weaker politically it wouldn't matter one bit since Israel would just steamroll them, as they are able to do militarily. Did Germany have anything to say at the versaille conference? No (I think). Or after WWII? If you're the winner you make the rules and the losers should be happy that you're even willing to negotiate. The strong winner doesn't offer freedom of murderers so that the weak loser will come. So at the very least there is a much smaller gap from this aspect in terms of power.

And THEN the Palestinians make demands..lol! They need to just accept what they are offered otherwise they will just be colonized and annexed over time.

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Zionists are a very small percent in government and even smaller as a percentage in overall Israeli society. Using that excuse for the Palestinian situation is lame.KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

 

Well I definitely understand that. But Israelis feel kinda the same way. It's probably one of the most patriotic country of the world. Yet it is Israel who begs the Palestinians to come, seriously they released murderers just for them to COME to the negotiations. Again while understand all that honour and patriotism stuff, if Palestinians were really THAT much weaker politically it wouldn't matter one bit since Israel would just steamroll them, as they are able to do militarily. Did Germany have anything to say at the versaille conference? No (I think). Or after WWII? If you're the winner you make the rules and the losers should be happy that you're even willing to negotiate. The strong winner doesn't offer freedom of murderers so that the weak loser will come. So at the very least there is a much smaller gap from this aspect in terms of power.

themajormayor

And THEN the Palestinians make demands..lol! They need to just accept what they are offered otherwise they will just be colonized and annexed over time.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

 

Well I definitely understand that. But Israelis feel kinda the same way. It's probably one of the most patriotic country of the world. Yet it is Israel who begs the Palestinians to come, seriously they released murderers just for them to COME to the negotiations. Again while understand all that honour and patriotism stuff, if Palestinians were really THAT much weaker politically it wouldn't matter one bit since Israel would just steamroll them, as they are able to do militarily. Did Germany have anything to say at the versaille conference? No (I think). Or after WWII? If you're the winner you make the rules and the losers should be happy that you're even willing to negotiate. The strong winner doesn't offer freedom of murderers so that the weak loser will come. So at the very least there is a much smaller gap from this aspect in terms of power.

themajormayor

And THEN the Palestinians make demands..lol! They need to just accept what they are offered otherwise they will just be colonized and annexed over time.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Exactly. Palestinians have been on the losing side in every conflict for the last 70 years. They are lucky at this point to have any piece of land to call their own. Historically, most groups that lose that many wars in that short a period usually have zero territory and are lucky to even exist as a group.

And THEN the Palestinians make demands..lol! They need to just accept what they are offered otherwise they will just be colonized and annexed over time.

KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Exactly. Palestinians have been on the losing side in every conflict for the last 70 years. They are lucky at this point to have any piece of land to call their own. Historically, most groups that lose that many wars in that short a period usually have zero territory and are lucky to even exist as a group.

And THEN the Palestinians make demands..lol! They need to just accept what they are offered otherwise they will just be colonized and annexed over time.

BossPerson

Status Quo is only benefitial for the Palestinians. How many times have you not heard that Israeli occupation is contributing to increasing isolation and loss of support of Israel?

America is on Israel's side to a great extent. Western Europe is neutral at best.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="themajormayor"] The point I'm making though is that they're not really on the losing side. Time is on their side, world opinion is on their side. They don't have the military power but they have everything else.themajormayor

Isreal should have never existed in the first place it was a stupid idea. i have no problem with Jewish people or muslems but this bring back Isreal has got to be one of the most insane ideas ever. Give muslem land to people they hate and see how good that works out.

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] The point I'm making though is that they're not really on the losing side. Time is on their side, world opinion is on their side. They don't have the military power but they have everything else.themajormayor

Status Quo is only benefitial for the Palestinians. How many times have you not heard that Israeli occupation is contributing to increasing isolation and loss of support of Israel?

America is on Israel's side to a great extent. Western Europe is neutral at best.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]No it's not. Look at the map over time of Palestinian territoriality. Another 20-30 years at this rate and there will be no Palestinian area.

 

KC_Hokie

There seems to be at least four words in your post that you do not fully understand.

Isreal should have never existed in the first place it was a stupid idea. i have no problem with Jewish people or muslems but this bring back Isreal has got to be one of the most insane ideas ever. Give muslem land to people they hate and see how good that works out.

osirisx3

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]Time is on the Israeli's side, they're "winning" just by the status quo remaining. As for world opinion, America and Western Europe is on their side (for the most part) and thats all that matters really. And Im not even gonna engage KC, the guy is just gonna make me pull my hair out with his stupidity KC_Hokie

Status Quo is only benefitial for the Palestinians. How many times have you not heard that Israeli occupation is contributing to increasing isolation and loss of support of Israel?

America is on Israel's side to a great extent. Western Europe is neutral at best.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]You realize that according to this kind of logic there was no palestinian area after 1967 and that they have been growing since?

themajormayor

There seems to be at least four words in your post that you do not fully understand.

Isreal should have never existed in the first place it was a stupid idea. i have no problem with Jewish people or muslems but this bring back Isreal has got to be one of the most insane ideas ever. Give muslem land to people they hate and see how good that works out.

osirisx3

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

Status Quo is only benefitial for the Palestinians. How many times have you not heard that Israeli occupation is contributing to increasing isolation and loss of support of Israel?

America is on Israel's side to a great extent. Western Europe is neutral at best.

themajormayor

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

I do not think that the Palestinians are completely unjustified in commiting violence but I definitely think Israel had the right to declare their independence 65 years ago. Also while it's true that USA is Israel's bitch it's also pretty much the only state that is. If Israel is so so powerful how come it's the Palestinians are even able to refuse to negotiate? I'm not even saying they are not right to do so. But such a "weak" party should really be begging Israel to come and talk instead of being completely crushed. Yes Israel is definitely much more powerful militarily, but politically? Not necessarily.

 

oh and long time no see, hope all is well etc. :3

themajormayor

Well I definitely understand that. But Israelis feel kinda the same way. It's probably one of the most patriotic country of the world. Yet it is Israel who begs the Palestinians to come, seriously they released murderers just for them to COME to the negotiations. Again while understand all that honour and patriotism stuff, if Palestinians were really THAT much weaker politically it wouldn't matter one bit since Israel would just steamroll them, as they are able to do militarily. Did Germany have anything to say at the versaille conference? No (I think). Or after WWII? If you're the winner you make the rules and the losers should be happy that you're even willing to negotiate. The strong winner doesn't offer freedom of murderers so that the weak loser will come. So at the very least there is a much smaller gap from this aspect in terms of power.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]This is a demographic not political map. They are losing territory over time and being colonized and annexed. KC_Hokie

There seems to be at least four words in your post that you do not fully understand.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Don't agree at all. Especially with all the troubles in the middle east today that have nothing to do with Israel. The notion Israel is the root of all the problems in the middle east has been debunked by the 'Arab spring' aka Arab nightmare.KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

There seems to be at least four words in your post that you do not fully understand.

themajormayor

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] You have to understand the mentality of Palestinians and their state of mind. We view ourselves as the victims who were kicked out and ethnically cleansed 65 years ago. Great injustice and humiliation were inflicted to us from Israel and the world by standing still while all of this happened to us and is still happening to us. We also view that we are the ones with the true right to this land. Consequently, and out of patriotism and honor, we have to stand strong and struggle for freedom and our rights. When you look at it from this angel you'll understand why we play the tough guy and won't sit for negotiations. And Israel is as politically strong as it is militarily... Hi :3GazaAli

Well I definitely understand that. But Israelis feel kinda the same way. It's probably one of the most patriotic country of the world. Yet it is Israel who begs the Palestinians to come, seriously they released murderers just for them to COME to the negotiations. Again while understand all that honour and patriotism stuff, if Palestinians were really THAT much weaker politically it wouldn't matter one bit since Israel would just steamroll them, as they are able to do militarily. Did Germany have anything to say at the versaille conference? No (I think). Or after WWII? If you're the winner you make the rules and the losers should be happy that you're even willing to negotiate. The strong winner doesn't offer freedom of murderers so that the weak loser will come. So at the very least there is a much smaller gap from this aspect in terms of power.

Well then that would be one reason that the political power between the two is more balanced then. However their are alot of occupations in the world and whatnot not receiving much attention. So the world seems to be extra connected in this case

@BossPerson doesn't KC's avatar fit miraculously in this thread :lol:GazaAli

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]@BossPerson doesn't KC's avatar fit miraculously in this thread :lol:BossPerson

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]@BossPerson doesn't KC's avatar fit miraculously in this thread :lol:KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"] Look at that demographics. The Palestinians aren't going to exist in terms of territory over the next 20-30 years.KC_Hokie

And I think there is a difference between territory and what ethnicities live within. My house is not "Jewish territory".

Israel has only performed an annexation once in its history with regard to any territory claimed by Palestinians. And it was shortly after 67. 

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] The first map is not territory. And as I said between the last two pictures they didn't exist in terms of territory. Hence they have been growing and the opposite would be true according to this map logic.themajormayor

And I think there is a difference between territory and what ethnicities live within. My house is not "Jewish territory".

Israel has only performed an annexation once in its history with regard to any territory claimed by Palestinians. And it was shortly after 67. 

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

But the case here is that it does not officially affiliate itself with a religion. To a large extent an ethnicity yes, but not religion. There are definitely powerful figures in Israeli politics advocating at the very least theocratic influences. But can you really judge a country based on minority parties not in government? Then alot of states I'm sure could be considered theocratic, racist, facist, nazi, communist and other bad words.

themajormayor

They're about 20%. That's a minority no matter how you look at it.

They are indeed of great power since they are a balance of power. It's a common phenomenon in politics. 

While it's true that the left has greatly deterioated, but it's mostly not to the benifit of religious parties, right-wing doesn't neccesarily mean religious. The four biggest parties right now are all secular. Likud is secular, Israel beiteinu is extremely secular, yesh atid is extremely secular and the labour party is secular.

Then why did not much change when the left was in power, which was for the majority of the state's existence?

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

 

Well I definitely understand that. But Israelis feel kinda the same way. It's probably one of the most patriotic country of the world. Yet it is Israel who begs the Palestinians to come, seriously they released murderers just for them to COME to the negotiations. Again while understand all that honour and patriotism stuff, if Palestinians were really THAT much weaker politically it wouldn't matter one bit since Israel would just steamroll them, as they are able to do militarily. Did Germany have anything to say at the versaille conference? No (I think). Or after WWII? If you're the winner you make the rules and the losers should be happy that you're even willing to negotiate. The strong winner doesn't offer freedom of murderers so that the weak loser will come. So at the very least there is a much smaller gap from this aspect in terms of power.

themajormayor

Well then that would be one reason that the political power between the two is more balanced then. However their are alot of occupations in the world and whatnot not receiving much attention. So the world seems to be extra connected in this case

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Yes it is. It shows were the Jews were living and where Arab Muslims (aka Palestinians) were living. The Palestinian part will be gone soon as Israel is colonizing and annexing over time.KC_Hokie

And I think there is a difference between territory and what ethnicities live within. My house is not "Jewish territory".

Israel has only performed an annexation once in its history with regard to any territory claimed by Palestinians. And it was shortly after 67. 

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] But these are not minority parties. To get a real understanding of their scale, just observe parties and candidates before any major elections. They seek their votes and offer them things that can be absurd at times which are strongly opposed by some Israeli citizens and politicians. They are of great influence and their votes are essential for candidates to secure a considerable representation in the Knesset. Their influence has grown over the past 25 years or so which can be seen in the serious deterioration of the more moderate left which by the way hasn't ruled in Israel for some 20 consecutive years or so. To put it simply if it was not for extreme right wing and religious parties and tendencies Israel may have had offered something substantial in the past and the conflict would have looked different by now.GazaAli

They're about 20%. That's a minority no matter how you look at it.

They are indeed of great power since they are a balance of power. It's a common phenomenon in politics. 

While it's true that the left has greatly deterioated, but it's mostly not to the benifit of religious parties, right-wing doesn't neccesarily mean religious. The four biggest parties right now are all secular. Likud is secular, Israel beiteinu is extremely secular, yesh atid is extremely secular and the labour party is secular.

Then why did not much change when the left was in power, which was for the majority of the state's existence?

You seem to be reading straight out of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood propaganda book.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]Well first of all, it only shows were Jews were living, not were palestinians were living (even though this is what it states).

And I think there is a difference between territory and what ethnicities live within. My house is not "Jewish territory".

Israel has only performed an annexation once in its history with regard to any territory claimed by Palestinians. And it was shortly after 67. 

themajormayor

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

They're about 20%. That's a minority no matter how you look at it.

They are indeed of great power since they are a balance of power. It's a common phenomenon in politics. 

While it's true that the left has greatly deterioated, but it's mostly not to the benifit of religious parties, right-wing doesn't neccesarily mean religious. The four biggest parties right now are all secular. Likud is secular, Israel beiteinu is extremely secular, yesh atid is extremely secular and the labour party is secular.

Then why did not much change when the left was in power, which was for the majority of the state's existence?

KC_Hokie

You seem to be reading straight out of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood propaganda book.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] But these are not minority parties. To get a real understanding of their scale, just observe parties and candidates before any major elections. They seek their votes and offer them things that can be absurd at times which are strongly opposed by some Israeli citizens and politicians. They are of great influence and their votes are essential for candidates to secure a considerable representation in the Knesset. Their influence has grown over the past 25 years or so which can be seen in the serious deterioration of the more moderate left which by the way hasn't ruled in Israel for some 20 consecutive years or so. To put it simply if it was not for extreme right wing and religious parties and tendencies Israel may have had offered something substantial in the past and the conflict would have looked different by now.GazaAli

They're about 20%. That's a minority no matter how you look at it.

They are indeed of great power since they are a balance of power. It's a common phenomenon in politics. 

While it's true that the left has greatly deterioated, but it's mostly not to the benifit of religious parties, right-wing doesn't neccesarily mean religious. The four biggest parties right now are all secular. Likud is secular, Israel beiteinu is extremely secular, yesh atid is extremely secular and the labour party is secular.

Then why did not much change when the left was in power, which was for the majority of the state's existence?

Well 20% is a minority in any case. What you're meaning is that they could be a plurality. But just look at labour and yesh atid alone being about 25%. And while I see your point, when we talk about secularism there is only one scale. So maybe meretz and labour disagrees on many things, but they would vote similarily on religious questions. I think is your point is that a party like Likud which is right wing is secular but not secular enough to refuse to give in to this balance of power that small religious parties have. I agree with this. But it's still far from making it a theocratic state.

Yeah well I would not vote right wing in any case. I hope they become more left wing. 

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] 20% is not a minority. You have to take into account that within Israeli politics you have all sorts of political philosophies, not just religious and secular. So between the religious, the secular, the independent, the socialists, the Arabs and others, 20% is not a minority. I mean you have to take relativity into account here. Right wing does not necessarily mean religious, but it agrees on a lot of things with religious parties, even if this agreement stems from different incentives and ideologies. The important thing is that it reinforces the same values of war mongering and political arrogance. Although I must say that things would not have necessarily turned out to be better if the left was in a better situation right now. I'm just saying its a possibility. The left ruled at times when the conflict was still fresh and its two sides were at direct and plain military confrontation. Now the conflict has ripen and its two sides are worn out, relatively speaking with each side in its own context and settings.GazaAli

You seem to be reading straight out of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood propaganda book.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]The map shows Israeli/Palestinian territory in terms of demographics. Not that complicated.KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Hunh? 20% isn't even a plurality in their parliamentary system.

You seem to be reading straight out of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood propaganda book.

BossPerson

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

They're about 20%. That's a minority no matter how you look at it.

They are indeed of great power since they are a balance of power. It's a common phenomenon in politics. 

While it's true that the left has greatly deterioated, but it's mostly not to the benifit of religious parties, right-wing doesn't neccesarily mean religious. The four biggest parties right now are all secular. Likud is secular, Israel beiteinu is extremely secular, yesh atid is extremely secular and the labour party is secular.

Then why did not much change when the left was in power, which was for the majority of the state's existence?

themajormayor

Well 20% is a minority in any case. What you're meaning is that they could be a plurality. But just look at labour and yesh atid alone being about 25%. And while I see your point, when we talk about secularism there is only one scale. So maybe meretz and labour disagrees on many things, but they would vote similarily on religious questions. I think is your point is that a party like Likud which is right wing is secular but not secular enough to refuse to give in to this balance of power that small religious parties have. I agree with this. But it's still far from making it a theocratic state.

Yeah well I would not vote right wing in any case. I hope they become more left wing. 

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Hunh? 20% isn't even a plurality in their parliamentary system.

You seem to be reading straight out of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood propaganda book.

BossPerson

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] But the three last ones does not take into account demographics whatsoever. And when do I get any retort to the fact that they've been growing according to your logic since 67?themajormayor

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]the vagina of the sister of his image KC_Hokie