Aliasing

I spent some time searching through google to try and get an answer, but couldn't maybe someone here can help me out.

It doesn't matter what monitor you buy today, or how many Pixel's Per Inch it can do, all games regardless suffer from Aliasing, yet if you were to look at a movie at 1080P, a photo of anything in real life etc. This pretty much non existent.

Throwing more resolution at it defintely helps, but movies and photos hit a point where it's a non issue long before games do.

Honestly even at 200 PPI theirs probably still probably plenty of aliasing yet looking at a movie at 100 PPI and 200 PPI you'd probably be hard pressed to tell the difference.

the way a movie is filmed and the way graphics in a game are rendered are two completely different things. Andrew0987

Well obviously, I was hoping for an in depth explanation..

movies use a huge amount of motion blur.michael098

dude.... No, just No

You're comparing a real-time 3D rendered image to a pre-prepared 2D video, which doesn't make any sense at all.RayvinAzn

Of course I am, I'd still love a detailed explanation nonetheless...

Of course I am, I'd still love a detailed explanation nonetheless...

zipozal

How much more detail do you need? A movie isn't a dynamic, three-dimensional world, it's just a recording. There's nothing going on to display a movie other than recording, while a game has to model, plot, process, and display tens of millions of elements every second. Game cutscene movies don't suffer from aliasing, right?

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[QUOTE="zipozal"]

Of course I am, I'd still love a detailed explanation nonetheless...

RayvinAzn

How much more detail do you need? A movie isn't a dynamic, three-dimensional world, it's just a recording. There's nothing going on to display a movie other than recording, while a game has to model, plot, process, and display tens of millions of elements every second. Game cutscene movies don't suffer from aliasing, right?

All your telling me is why movies don't, because their static, well duh. That doesn't explain what is specifically happening in the game rendering process that causes aliasing to happen.

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Andrew0987

Whats with the picture? If all you can give me is " You're comparing a real-time 3D rendered image to a pre-prepared 2D video" then I think you have a lesser understanding of why aliasing occurs then I do...

[QUOTE="Andrew0987"]

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zipozal

Whats with the picture? If all you can give me is " You're comparing a real-time 3D rendered image to a pre-prepared 2D video" then I think you have a lesser understanding of why aliasing occurs then I do...

you are being dense. if a computer tries to draw a line, like a side of a polygon, and that line does not perfectly match up with a row or column of pixels on your monitor, there will be aliasing. I dont really know how to elaborate further.

Whats with the picture? If all you can give me is " You're comparing a real-time 3D rendered image to a pre-prepared 2D video" then I think you have a lesser understanding of why aliasing occurs then I do...

zipozal

There are idiot savants that can tell me if any given 7-digit number is prime or not, but they still can't add two and two.

Real easy, look at a picture. even a low res one. Zoom in real close, you'll notice that it looks remarkably similar to a screenshot of a game with AA enabled. When movies and pictures are taken, the pixels are automatically blended together in such a way that you don't see any aliasing. Hence why taking offscreen photos of games from a TV can look so good due to that fact there are no aliasing issues.karasill

Thats not true at all, not even slightly.

[QUOTE="karasill"]Real easy, look at a picture. even a low res one. Zoom in real close, you'll notice that it looks remarkably similar to a screenshot of a game with AA enabled. When movies and pictures are taken, the pixels are automatically blended together in such a way that you don't see any aliasing. Hence why taking offscreen photos of games from a TV can look so good due to that fact there are no aliasing issues.zipozal

Thats not true at all, even slightly.

[QUOTE="zipozal"]

[QUOTE="karasill"]Real easy, look at a picture. even a low res one. Zoom in real close, you'll notice that it looks remarkably similar to a screenshot of a game with AA enabled. When movies and pictures are taken, the pixels are automatically blended together in such a way that you don't see any aliasing. Hence why taking offscreen photos of games from a TV can look so good due to that fact there are no aliasing issues.karasill

Thats not true at all, even slightly.

I think your seeing things if you believe that honestly, if you were to pause a game or if I was to take a screenshot of a game on my PC obviously I can still see the aliasing. This is no different if the screenshot is taken with a camera...

You don't see the aliasing moving of course, but you will still clearly see the steps...

[QUOTE="zipozal"][QUOTE="Andrew0987"]

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Andrew0987

Whats with the picture? If all you can give me is " You're comparing a real-time 3D rendered image to a pre-prepared 2D video" then I think you have a lesser understanding of why aliasing occurs then I do...

you are being dense. if a computer tries to draw a line, like a side of a polygon, and that line does not perfectly match up with a row or column of pixels on your monitor, there will be aliasing. I dont really know how to elaborate further.

It doesn't usually line up in movies either yet it doesn't happen in them...So that doesn't sound right as that happens in both...

[QUOTE="karasill"][QUOTE="zipozal"]

[QUOTE="karasill"]Real easy, look at a picture. even a low res one. Zoom in real close, you'll notice that it looks remarkably similar to a screenshot of a game with AA enabled. When movies and pictures are taken, the pixels are automatically blended together in such a way that you don't see any aliasing. Hence why taking offscreen photos of games from a TV can look so good due to that fact there are no aliasing issues.zipozal

Thats not true at all, even slightly.

I think your seeing things if you believe that honestly, if you were to pause a game or if I was to take a screenshot of a game on my PC obviously I can still see the aliasing. This is no different if the screenshot is taken with a camera...

You don't see the aliasing moving of course, but you will still clearly see the steps...

[QUOTE="Andrew0987"][QUOTE="zipozal"][QUOTE="Andrew0987"]

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zipozal

Whats with the picture? If all you can give me is " You're comparing a real-time 3D rendered image to a pre-prepared 2D video" then I think you have a lesser understanding of why aliasing occurs then I do...

you are being dense. if a computer tries to draw a line, like a side of a polygon, and that line does not perfectly match up with a row or column of pixels on your monitor, there will be aliasing. I dont really know how to elaborate further.

It doesn't usually line up in movies either yet it doesn't happen in them...So that doesn't sound right as that happens in both...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliasing

have a blast

[QUOTE="Andrew0987"][QUOTE="zipozal"][QUOTE="Andrew0987"]

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zipozal

Whats with the picture? If all you can give me is " You're comparing a real-time 3D rendered image to a pre-prepared 2D video" then I think you have a lesser understanding of why aliasing occurs then I do...

you are being dense. if a computer tries to draw a line, like a side of a polygon, and that line does not perfectly match up with a row or column of pixels on your monitor, there will be aliasing. I dont really know how to elaborate further.

It doesn't usually line up in movies either yet it doesn't happen in them...So that doesn't sound right as that happens in both...

[QUOTE="karasill"][QUOTE="zipozal"][QUOTE="karasill"][QUOTE="zipozal"]

[QUOTE="karasill"]Real easy, look at a picture. even a low res one. Zoom in real close, you'll notice that it looks remarkably similar to a screenshot of a game with AA enabled. When movies and pictures are taken, the pixels are automatically blended together in such a way that you don't see any aliasing. Hence why taking offscreen photos of games from a TV can look so good due to that fact there are no aliasing issues.zipozal

Thats not true at all, even slightly.

I think your seeing things if you believe that honestly, if you were to pause a game or if I was to take a screenshot of a game on my PC obviously I can still see the aliasing. This is no different if the screenshot is taken with a camera...

You don't see the aliasing moving of course, but you will still clearly see the steps...

I think you better get your eyes checked, I humored your idea even though I know your completely wrong, the result? The Jaggies are still plenty apparent, in fact they were NOT REDUCED AT ALL....honestly I think you may have just took a bad picture, the first photo I took you couldn't see them, but that was because it was a blurry photo...

My second photo I got it focused better and whala a jag fest..

[QUOTE="zipozal"][QUOTE="Andrew0987"][QUOTE="zipozal"][QUOTE="Andrew0987"]

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karasill

Whats with the picture? If all you can give me is " You're comparing a real-time 3D rendered image to a pre-prepared 2D video" then I think you have a lesser understanding of why aliasing occurs then I do...

you are being dense. if a computer tries to draw a line, like a side of a polygon, and that line does not perfectly match up with a row or column of pixels on your monitor, there will be aliasing. I dont really know how to elaborate further.

It doesn't usually line up in movies either yet it doesn't happen in them...So that doesn't sound right as that happens in both...

Ok so what exactly is the camera doing thats blending everything together so well? It clearly does a far better job then AA...

It even does it live on my digi just looking at the lcd in motion theirs none of the aliasing present like in games...

If anyone has a piss poor camera I'd imagine it would be yours buddy. A camera freaking takes a picture of what it see's dude! If it sees a jaggy stair it will take a picture of a jaggy stair! If it takes a picture and their is no jaggy stair then thats because it's a pos camera incapable of taking in all the detail not the other way around!

My Digi is brank new sporting 10 megapixels and cost a few hundred dollars so ya it's probably better then what your sporting....

If it sees a jaggy stair it will take a picture of a jaggy stair

zipozal

too bad there is no such thing as aliasing irl

Now andrew with commnets like that maybe you should wonder if your the one who is in fact the trolling here...

Again that explains it fine on the film side of things, but I'm obviously more interested in the game side and what you said in all honestly doesn't even come close to explaining why a monitor with a 12 or maybe higher megapixel res will be need to do the same thing movies can achieve at 2 megapixels..

Again just saying it's because it's 3D rendered doesn't really explain much of anything...

If you can't produce a detailed scientific explanation going into dense detail why this happens in 3d and not film then perhaps it's best you ignore this topic...

didn't I just explain why it didn't happen in movies?Andrew0987

Didn't I say you did? It doesn't explain the game side and nor does the straight edge analogy do it for me in the slightest to a level of satisfaction..

[QUOTE="Andrew0987"]didn't I just explain why it didn't happen in movies?zipozal

Didn't I say you did? It doesn't explain the game side and nor does the straight edge analogy do it for me in the slightest to a level of satisfaction..

all right hang on

Here we have Halo 3, known to be a jagfest, or to put it in proper terms, it's lack of AA.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26/cheshire03/CIMG4666.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26/cheshire03/CIMG4665.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26/cheshire03/CIMG4664.jpg

However, when taken from a camera, notice how you don't see the jaggies? Hmmm, wonder why. Maybe it's because the camera blends the pixels together. :roll:

Stop being so stubborn and close-minded. Your asking why there is no aliasing in movies and pictures. It is because all those devices do is capture real 3-D life. Do you see aliasing in real life?......no. If you do you need some kind of corrective surgery.

Computer graphics have to be created using lines and then rendered. Your GPU performs billions of calculations a second to create many images strung together. It's not seamless nor perfectly aligned, therefore you see aliasing.

If anyone has a piss poor camera I'd imagine it would be yours buddy. A camera freaking takes a picture of what it see's dude! If it sees a jaggy stair it will take a picture of a jaggy stair! If it takes a picture and their is no jaggy stair then thats because it's a pos camera incapable of taking in all the detail not the other way around!

My Digi is brank new sporting 10 megapixels and cost a few hundred dollars so ya it's probably better then what your sporting....

zipozal

haha you just reported me like I care. oh and telling someone you reported them is an offense in itself, but I'm sure you already knew that ;)

Everyone here is explaining clearly what the reason behind aliasing is and yet you completely ignore them in the most stubborn and immature fashion. Why don't you grow a pair and listen to what the people here are saying. I don't feel like reiterating what others have said so I'll leave it at this, 2d prerendered footage (ie movies) =/= 3d rendered on the fly (games)

edit: um karasil that third picture is jag filled what are you talking about?

Could it be photobuckets downsizing of images?

Keep in mind I have no background in any type of 3d modeling or graphics programming so this is a little hard.

see the line on the left? it is perfectly vertical. the line on the right however, is not. (still following me?) it slants slightly to the left. because your monitor produces images by filling square pixels, it can only display lines to a certain detail. you see how it the line goes to the right one pixel for every several pixels it goes down? this is aliasing. games produce 3d images by rendering polygons, which are made up entirely of straight lines which get aliased.

haha you just reported me like I care. oh and telling someone you reported them is an offense in itself, but I'm sure you already knew that ;)

Everyone here is explaining clearly what the reason behind aliasing is and yet you completely ignore them in the most stubborn and immature fashion. Why don't you grow a pair and listen to what the people here are saying. I don't feel like reiterating what others have said so I'll leave it at this, 2d prerendered footage (ie movies) =/= 3d rendered on the fly (games)

edit: um karasil that third picture is jag filled what are you talking about?

Could it be photobuckets downsizing of images?

achilles614

[QUOTE="karasill"]

Here we have Halo 3, known to be a jagfest, or to put it in proper terms, it's lack of AA.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26/cheshire03/CIMG4666.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26/cheshire03/CIMG4665.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26/cheshire03/CIMG4664.jpg

However, when taken from a camera, notice how you don't see the jaggies? Hmmm, wonder why. Maybe it's because the camera blends the pixels together. :roll:

zipozal

lmfao first off your screenshots a a complete blurry mess, and yet on the last 2 pics the jaggies are still plenty apparent! Lmao dude, I have a 10 megapixel camera capable of taking far more detailed shots then that, every little jaggy is still visible if you get a good picture.

I'd post my shots, but I honestly don't see the point in arguing about something thats an absolute fact, it's like if you wanted to argue gravity isn't real....

If you don't think cameras implement some form of AA, then you're just a lost cause. How else do you think movies and pics don't have aliasing issues? Is it magic? It must be, because the idea that cameras/videocameras don't implement some form of AA is a stupid idea. I mean why do cameras even have video processors in them? For kicks?

You're done man, there is no point in arguing with you. When I take a picture of someone in real life, it's going to look jaggy on your computer monitor unless the camera blend the pixels together.... Sorry, if you can't understand that then I question your intelligence.

If you don't think cameras implement some form of AA, then you're just a lost cause. How else do you think movies and pics don't have aliasing issues? Is it magic? It must be, because the idea that cameras/videocameras don't implement some form of AA is a stupid idea. I mean why do cameras even have video processors in them? For kicks?

You're done man, there is no point in arguing with you. When I take a picture of someone in real life, it's going to look jaggy unless you blend the pixels together.... Sorry, if you can't understand that then I question your intelligence.

karasill

lmao maybe because real life doesn't have jaggies? Honestly do you even know what your saying? You saying that digital cameras blur the edges :lol: why would the edges need blurred? Theirs no jaggy's in Real life, but if their were THEY WOULD SHOW UP in a freaking photo and yes by default my camera is set to 10 megapixels and thats what I take photos at, most people that by high res camera do so to take high res photos shock.

You don't have a 800 dollar SLR camera, if you do prove me wrong...

If you don't think cameras implement some form of AA, then you're just a lost cause. How else do you think movies and pics don't have aliasing issues? Is it magic? It must be, because the idea that cameras/videocameras don't implement some form of AA is a stupid idea. I mean why do cameras even have video processors in them? For kicks?

You're done man, there is no point in arguing with you. When I take a picture of someone in real life, it's going to look jaggy on your computer monitor unless the camera blend the pixels together.... Sorry, if you can't understand that then I question your intelligence.

karasill

x 10000

aliasing only occurs in computer generated graphics. (not photos)

Common sense.

Curves occur naturally in the real world. We, or better yet, matter, is not made of pixels.

I'm pretty sure, maybe not, that aliasing occurs because what you're looking at is made of pixels (i.e: SMALL SQUARES), which have six flat sides, twelve straight edges, and eight corners, no curves whatsoever. Natural curves do not exist in graphics, only imitated by large amounts of pixels.

[QUOTE="karasill"]

If you don't think cameras implement some form of AA, then you're just a lost cause. How else do you think movies and pics don't have aliasing issues? Is it magic? It must be, because the idea that cameras/videocameras don't implement some form of AA is a stupid idea. I mean why do cameras even have video processors in them? For kicks?

You're done man, there is no point in arguing with you. When I take a picture of someone in real life, it's going to look jaggy unless you blend the pixels together.... Sorry, if you can't understand that then I question your intelligence.

zipozal

lmao maybe because real life doesn't have jaggies? Honestly do you even know what your saying? You saying that digital cameras blur the edges :lol: why would the edges need blurred? Theirs no jaggy's in Real life, but if their were THEY WOULD SHOW UP in a freaking photo and yes by default my camera is set to 10 megapixels and thats what I take photos at, most people that by high res camera do so to take high res photos shock.

You don't have a 800 dollar SLR camera, if you do prove me wrong...

The camera that took this didn't do a good job of blending the pixels together. Even though it's real life, the camera takes the image and converts it into pixels, and without blending them together you can have some aliasing issues. I can't believe someone who has a "nice " camera doesn't even know the basics of how it works.... Sad.

Why would you take photos at that res? Are you professional photographer that sells his pics to the national geographic? And no camera ever sets it's default resolution to it's highest out of the box, you're plain lying. Yes real life doesn't have jaggies, but you know what? Any line displayed in a computer monitor or camera monitor is susceptible to jaggies, real life or not. Do you know why? Because that image is now comprised of pixels, we don't view real life in pixels. Notice this plane http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26/cheshire03/untitled.jpg

The camera that took this didn't do a good job of blending the pixels together. Even though it's real life, the camera takes the image and converts it into pixels, and without blending them together you can have some aliasing issues. I can't believe someone who has a "nice " camera doesn't even know the basics of how it works.... Sad.

karasill

It just looks to me that whatever program scaled the image, did a terrible job of doing it.