Are BGII, Fallout 2, and Planescape Torment really that good? I don't think so.

[QUOTE="mfsa"]

Fair enough. I hereby proclaim Diablo 2 a terrible roleplaying game.

But it's not a roleplaying game - which is really the point. It's a hack 'n' slash roleplaying game. Comparing Diablo 2 with Fallout is like comparing Half Life 2 with Battlefield 2. They may fall into the same genre, but they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

The problem with Oblivion is it's neither here nor there. It's bad as a roleplaying game and it's bad as a hack 'n' slash roleplaying game, too (without a ****ton of mods, anyway). I honestly haven't played the game with a single mod, but I'll happily acknowledge it as somewhere between good and great with the right mods - but only as a hack 'n' slasher.

Timberwolf5578

Some people on here say that the mods make Oblivion so much better, but from the videos I have seen of the mods, it still looks like it has way more action than a boring "traditional" D&D RPG. So isn't that kind of hypocritical to say Oblivion sucks, but then to say it's good with mods, when it's still a more action-oriented game even with the mods?

Why don't you go play shooter if you want action?

And lol at calling a traditional RPG boring.

Posts like yours make me lose faith on mankind.

Some people on here say that the mods make Oblivion so much better, but from the videos I have seen of the mods, it still looks like it has way more action than a boring "traditional" D&D RPG. So isn't that kind of hypocritical to say Oblivion sucks, but then to say it's good with mods, when it's still a more action-oriented game even with the mods?

Timberwolf5578

Nah, I don't think it's hypocritical because the combat wasn't the only problem people had with the game. The leveling was a huge complaint when it first came out. I really don't understand why people disliked Oblivion's combat as if Morrowind's was any better. They complain that Oblivion's combat was simple clicking...but what the hell did you do in Morrowind? At least we had the capability to block & do some simplistic combos in Oblivion. Morrowind's combat without mods was literally just click click click..hold click.

[QUOTE="Timberwolf5578"]

Some people on here say that the mods make Oblivion so much better, but from the videos I have seen of the mods, it still looks like it has way more action than a boring "traditional" D&D RPG. So isn't that kind of hypocritical to say Oblivion sucks, but then to say it's good with mods, when it's still a more action-oriented game even with the mods?

Herrick

Nah, I don't think it's hypocritical because the combat wasn't the only problem people had with the game. The leveling was a huge complaint when it first came out. I really don't understand why people disliked Oblivion's combat as if Morrowind's was any better. They complain that Oblivion's combat was simple clicking...but what the hell did you do in Morrowind? At least we had the capability to block & do some simplistic combos in Oblivion. Morrowind's combat without mods was literally just click click click..hold click.

Oblivion's combat is excellent on a console with a controller. I don't see how it could be any worse with a mouse and keyboard. I would say Oblivion's combat is 100 times better than the pause.......click.......pause..........click combat of traditional D&D RPGs.

[QUOTE="Herrick"][QUOTE="Timberwolf5578"]

Some people on here say that the mods make Oblivion so much better, but from the videos I have seen of the mods, it still looks like it has way more action than a boring "traditional" D&D RPG. So isn't that kind of hypocritical to say Oblivion sucks, but then to say it's good with mods, when it's still a more action-oriented game even with the mods?

Timberwolf5578

Nah, I don't think it's hypocritical because the combat wasn't the only problem people had with the game. The leveling was a huge complaint when it first came out. I really don't understand why people disliked Oblivion's combat as if Morrowind's was any better. They complain that Oblivion's combat was simple clicking...but what the hell did you do in Morrowind? At least we had the capability to block & do some simplistic combos in Oblivion. Morrowind's combat without mods was literally just click click click..hold click.

Oblivion's combat is really good on a console with a controller. I don't see how it could be any worse with a mouse and keyboard. I would say Oblivion's combat is 100 times better than the pause.......click.......pause..........click combat of traditional D&D RPGs.

Better in terms of action? Certainly.

Better in terms of tactics and complexity? Not really.

To each his own, I guess.

[QUOTE="Herrick"][QUOTE="Timberwolf5578"]

Some people on here say that the mods make Oblivion so much better, but from the videos I have seen of the mods, it still looks like it has way more action than a boring "traditional" D&D RPG. So isn't that kind of hypocritical to say Oblivion sucks, but then to say it's good with mods, when it's still a more action-oriented game even with the mods?

Timberwolf5578

Nah, I don't think it's hypocritical because the combat wasn't the only problem people had with the game. The leveling was a huge complaint when it first came out. I really don't understand why people disliked Oblivion's combat as if Morrowind's was any better. They complain that Oblivion's combat was simple clicking...but what the hell did you do in Morrowind? At least we had the capability to block & do some simplistic combos in Oblivion. Morrowind's combat without mods was literally just click click click..hold click.

Oblivion's combat is really good on a console with a controller. I don't see how it could be any worse with a mouse and keyboard. I would say Oblivion's combat is 100 times better than the pause.......click.......pause..........click combat of traditional D&D RPGs.

The difference is that in traditional roleplaying games you have to employ strategy to win. You may have several characters under your control, all of whom have specialised skills which must be used in tandem to defeat your enemies.

Even if you only have one character under your control you will have to choose your actions with care, and use the right tools at the right time.

While in Oblivion you just repeatedly hit the attack key until your enemy dies. There's no thought involved - hell, there's no effort involved. And if there's no effort, what's the reward?

[QUOTE="Timberwolf5578"][QUOTE="Herrick"][QUOTE="Timberwolf5578"]

Some people on here say that the mods make Oblivion so much better, but from the videos I have seen of the mods, it still looks like it has way more action than a boring "traditional" D&D RPG. So isn't that kind of hypocritical to say Oblivion sucks, but then to say it's good with mods, when it's still a more action-oriented game even with the mods?

mfsa

Nah, I don't think it's hypocritical because the combat wasn't the only problem people had with the game. The leveling was a huge complaint when it first came out. I really don't understand why people disliked Oblivion's combat as if Morrowind's was any better. They complain that Oblivion's combat was simple clicking...but what the hell did you do in Morrowind? At least we had the capability to block & do some simplistic combos in Oblivion. Morrowind's combat without mods was literally just click click click..hold click.

Oblivion's combat is really good on a console with a controller. I don't see how it could be any worse with a mouse and keyboard. I would say Oblivion's combat is 100 times better than the pause.......click.......pause..........click combat of traditional D&D RPGs.

The difference is that in traditional roleplaying games you have to employ strategy to win. You may have several characters under your control, all of whom have specialised skills which must be used in tandem to defeat your enemies.

Even if you only have one character under your control you will have to choose your actions with care, and use the right tools at the right time.

While in Oblivion you just repeatedly hit the attack key until your enemy dies. There's no thought involved - hell, there's no effort involved. And if there's no effort, what's the reward?

Exactly. I know a lot of games have "click, click" - combat, but there is a difference between Oblivion's "click to swing your sword, that's it" and the first 3 games mentioned in the first post. There's no strategy involved, no thought behind your actions in Oblivion. Other than: "Die, ************!" Which is fun, but not '300 hrs of gameplay'-fun.

In Baldur's gate you click not only to use your weapon, but you have to use the right person at the right time with the right weapon/enchanted weapon/spell. Or you're toast.

How about RTSs, they're pretty much a click-fest like Diablo-games, but I think most people will agree that the gameplay is definitely more complex and requires a whole lot more strategy and thought than a simple action-RPG.

Oblivion's combat is excellent on a console with a controller. I don't see how it could be any worse with a mouse and keyboard. I would say Oblivion's combat is 100 times better than the pause.......click.......pause..........click combat of traditional D&D RPGs.Timberwolf5578

It doesn't matter too much which RPG you play, it's pretty much a given the combat system will suck. For single-player, FPS and action/adventure titles tend to have much better combat. For party-based, tactical games like Silent Storm are much better. It's the reason I have a hard time enjoying any combat heavy RPG.

AD&D 2E, in BG2 and Torment, is more complex than it needed to be. Torment alleviated some of this with point allocation for character creation. But, randomized HP and randomized stats are terrible ideas for computer games. People could easily "roll-up" a non-viable character in BG. And, THAC0 is overly complicated. If THAC0 was such a good idea, they wouldn't have fixed it with 3E.

Not that these games were bad, Torment is one of my favorite games of all time. The games - Fallout 2, BG2, and Torment - are much more about roleplaying and offer many opportunities to roleplay your character. As opposed to game the TC prefers that are much more about dungeon crawling.

It seriously looks like you just don't understand that back in the day technologies weren't as good as they were now.

This is my opinion of these three borefest games:

Baldurs Gate II - Way too much micromanagement. You have to keep pausing the game during combat to micromanage your team. Way too much dialogue/reading (I want to play a game, not read a novel). And far too many options and far too complex.

Fallout 2 - Again, too many options and too complex, and too much dialogue/reading. Very boring turn-based gameplay. Dull outdated graphics.

Planescape Torment - Cool setting but way way too much dialogue/reading (story seems decent though, but again I want to play a game, not read a novel). Combat is dull. Too many options and too complex.

Now compare those games to really good RPGs like the following:

Oblivion - Great gameplay, combat is very fun. Still a decent amount of dialogue but not too much and you can actually HEAR it (voice-acting) which makes it a LOT better. Very cool missions. Fantastic graphics. Very good story. And not overly complex.

Diablo 2 - Great hack and slash RPG with excellent online multiplayer on BNET. Excellent combat and very cool skills to pick from. Just a whole lot of fun to play. Again you can HEAR the dialogue (voice-acting).

Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance - Another very well made hack and slash RPG for consoles. Excellent combat, good story, and just all around fun to play. And very good graphics for it's time. And again you can HEAR the dialogue (voice-acting).

Opinions?

Timberwolf5578

You're going to compare three masterpieces to a beautiful but boring as hell first person adventure game (Oblivion), and hack n slash game (Diablo 2) and a piss poor console Diablo ripoff (Dark Alliance)? Wow... just, wow. Remind me never to ask your opinion on games.

My opinion? You don't like role-playing games.-wildflower-

Ditto. Sounds like you're more into action RPGs, at best.

I'm in the middle of playing Diablo 2 - it's pretty good. I LOVED Baldur's Gate 2. Yet to play Planescape Torment, but I've been itching to try it soon (already own it).

Frankly,I think you're lazy.

One thing I do agree with in your post is Dark Alliance,I thought that game was really great.

My opinion? You don't like role-playing games.-wildflower-

[QUOTE="Timberwolf5578"]Oblivion's combat is excellent on a console with a controller. I don't see how it could be any worse with a mouse and keyboard. I would say Oblivion's combat is 100 times better than the pause.......click.......pause..........click combat of traditional D&D RPGs.Skie7

It doesn't matter too much which RPG you play, it's pretty much a given the combat system will suck. For single-player, FPS and action/adventure titles tend to have much better combat. For party-based, tactical games like Silent Storm are much better. It's the reason I have a hard time enjoying any combat heavy RPG.

AD&D 2E, in BG2 and Torment, is more complex than it needed to be. Torment alleviated some of this with point allocation for character creation. But, randomized HP and randomized stats are terrible ideas for computer games. People could easily "roll-up" a non-viable character in BG. And, THAC0 is overly complicated. If THAC0 was such a good idea, they wouldn't have fixed it with 3E.

Not that these games were bad, Torment is one of my favorite games of all time. The games - Fallout 2, BG2, and Torment - are much more about roleplaying and offer many opportunities to roleplay your character. As opposed to game the TC prefers that are much more about dungeon crawling.

What about ToEE and Wizardry and M&M? Anyways I liked AD&D 2E simply because the enemies felt a lot tougher, figting dragons in BG2 is not the same as in 3E.

Anyways RPG's were called RPG's well before you could actually roleplay in them, get over yourselves. Diablo 2 is more complex than many cRPG's like KOTOR and Jade Empire, probably VtM:B too and with a better levelling system than all the Infinity Engine games. Don't get me wrong I like the combat in the Infinity Engine but levelling most of the classes was a brain dead experience.

My opinion? You don't like role-playing games.-wildflower-

And if there's no effort, what's the reward?mfsa

Oblivion's combat is excellent on a console with a controller. I don't see how it could be any worse with a mouse and keyboard. I would say Oblivion's combat is 100 times better than the pause.......click.......pause..........click combat of traditional D&D RPGs.

Timberwolf5578

Ok. I wasn't trying to compare Oblivion's combat with the combat of AD&D RPGs, but now that we're on that subject, I'm not sure which type of combat I enjoy the most. I always love to control my own character & being able to block & choosing how I want to attack (overhead chop, right side swing, stab etc). On the other hand, I really love pausing the combat in AD&D type games and choosing who will attack who & what weapons they'll use, but I can see how that bore someone else because it breaks up the action a lot.

Anyways, since you're more into action oriented combat, have you ever checked out Dark Messiah of Might & Magic? It's not an RPG, but it does have some RPG elements and the combat is pretty cool.

Short answer: Yes.

Better gaming experence than metal gear solid, Halo, and other big brand names, alot of these games are 8+ years old and still hold up.