Did BioWare peak with BG2?

I've recently reinstalled BG2 after reading so much about it from the new enhanced version announcment, and I had a craving for it. I am having a BLAST. No other BioWare game in recent memory has given me such a good time at all, let alone after being played through more times than I care to remember. Did BioWare peak after it finished the Baldur's Gate series?

I think they still had the magic with neverwinter nights and KoToR

I also enjoyed DA1. DA is absolute crap when you compare it to baldurs gate 2 though. BG2 + TOB is my favourite game of all time and I'm really looking forward to playing the re-release. The story, the characters, the writing, the hand drawn backgrounds, the individually carefully planned hand crafted encounters. It's the one game I believe that truely came close to being a piece of art. The only thing BG2 needs is the option of using the combat system from temple of elemental evil.

I wish I could forget completely about the BG series so I could play them fresh from the beginning =(

Depends. The core game of BGII is far and away the best of Bioware's games. In terms of custom stuff Neverwinter Nights is easily the best for that.

This post illustrates that there is not only something terribly wrong with Bioware, but the PC games industry in general. Is there a Baldur's Gate 2 equivalent today? Does anything even come within viewing distance?

Yes, after BG it was downhill. Games got really dumbed down combat wise.

KotoR's combat was so piss easy you barley had to even pay attention.

NWN you only controlled 1 character with 'followers' and the OC was terrible. Best thing about NWN was playing MP with custom content.

DAO was simplified rules/mechanics compared to d&d.

Do I eeven have to mention their other games ?

At least the BG combat was somewhat tactical, even though it would of been 100x better if it was fully turn based like a proper D&D game should be. (Gold Box games, ToEE)

NWN with some modules are almost as good. But yeah, BG2 was the peak of Bioware, and the last good Bioware game that wasnt an expansion.

This post illustrates that there is not only something terribly wrong with Bioware, but the PC games industry in general. Is there a Baldur's Gate 2 equivalent today? Does anything even come within viewing distance?

Falconoffury

Drakensang: The River of Time is probably as close as you get.

Once Black Isles was no longer around to lend Bioware a "helping hand" it was all downhill.

BG2 was the last Bioware game I can honestly say I really liked. There are a few games/expansions here and there that I've been able to tolerate since then, with varying degrees of success, but BG2 was the last one I truly enjoyed. KotoR has the honor of being the first Bioware game I disliked. It felt very "consolized" and the shift in focus from game-play to corny cinematic storytelling wasn't something I cared for, either.

Bioware's modern games seem to draw inspiration more from JRPGs than traditional PC RPGs or tabletop games and that's why I've pretty much lost all interest and respect for their work.

yup. i for one CANNOT STAND them anymore. me1 was ok, nothing really special. but 2 was so pathetic and i saw the direction they were taking as a company i knew to avoid 3. shame because planescape torment was one of my favourite games ever.

I disagree.. I enjoyed many of the Bioware games after BG2.. sSubZerOo

I would have to agree with you, Kotor, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, SWTOR, (never got to play DA:O) All were/are great games.

All their games upto Jade Empire were decent. Jade Empire was when they really approached the idea of mainstreaming their RPGs for consoles, and IMO Jade Empire had pretty medicore gameplay.

Jade Empire was their best game.

Jade Empire was when they really approached the idea of mainstreaming their RPGs for consoles, and IMO Jade Empire had pretty medicore gameplay.

ShimmerMan

That was the first time they had to build an original RPG and combat system. They still don't know how to do that.

People always ignore Jade Empire and blame EA for their games being "dumbed down".

I wouln't say ir's Bioware, but Black Isle. The Black Isle team was one of those that could not disband, just like the one behind the Ultima series.

They worked magic!

Yeah, I think BG2 was their best game and ToB was great too even tho many people raged at it. Since then they've been just getting worse with every new game

Once Black Isles was no longer around to lend Bioware a "helping hand" it was all downhill.

-wildflower-

If Black Isle was that great maybe they'd still be around and doing well for themselves.

[QUOTE="-wildflower-"]

Once Black Isles was no longer around to lend Bioware a "helping hand" it was all downhill.

Jabby250

If Black Isle was that great maybe they'd still be around and doing well for themselves.

Black Isle was a subdivision of Interplay. And yes, they were that great, their games speak for them.

Black Isle > Bioware.

Pwned!

EdiT: BTW, they will launch Baldur's Gate 3 via Kickstarter. Sit tight.

[QUOTE="Jabby250"]

[QUOTE="-wildflower-"]

Once Black Isles was no longer around to lend Bioware a "helping hand" it was all downhill.

Lithos_

If Black Isle was that great maybe they'd still be around and doing well for themselves.

Black Isle was a subdivision of Interplay. And yes, they were that great, their games speak for them.

Black Isle > Bioware.

Pwned!

EdiT: BTW, they will launch Baldur's Gate 3 via Kickstarter. Sit tight.

I'm not saying they have bad writers but they're not as good as their rabid fanbase makes them out to be.

KotOR II was full of plotholes:

- The Jedi Exile being the last Jedi doesn't make any sense at all. What about Bastila? She's arguably more famous than the Exile and you even get to meet her in the game if Revan was good.

- Where the hell do these Sith Lords come from? I can understand that Kreia was in hiding, but the others? What an ass pull.

- The ending I won't even touch; I don't even find out who survived and I'm not really sure why Goto betrays you.

-- I've spent a significant amount of time with the game (obviously I've finished it), but I still have no f---- idea what I'm supposed to be doing the entire game. I have to assemble all the Jedi Masters who went into hiding. Okay, I do that, then Kreia kills them all. Great. I've spend 3/4 of the entire game for nothing. Then I go kill the Sith Lords myself.

How does that make any sense to you Obsidian fanboys? And you keep bragging about Black Isle's intelligent writing. Cool story bros, I can write pseudo-philosophical babble myself and pretend it's so convoluted that it's deep.

NWN with some modules are almost as good. But yeah, BG2 was the peak of Bioware, and the last good Bioware game that wasnt an expansion.

[QUOTE="Falconoffury"]

This post illustrates that there is not only something terribly wrong with Bioware, but the PC games industry in general. Is there a Baldur's Gate 2 equivalent today? Does anything even come within viewing distance?

Maroxad

Drakensang: The River of Time is probably as close as you get.

BG2 and KOTOR for me are there best games.

Dragon Age Origins and NWN1 also are games I enjoyed a hell of alot.

I liked NWN the best. I don't think Bioware has peaked, I'm really enjoying SWTOR but I've never been able to get into the Mass Effect games.

How does that make any sense to you Obsidian fanboys? And you keep bragging about Black Isle's intelligent writing. Cool story bros, I can write pseudo-philosophical babble myself and pretend it's so convoluted that it's deep.

Jabby250

It might have something to do with the game being developed in 9 months and a third of it being cut when LucasArts suddenly announced it's a Christmas release. The ending was affected too.

Be thankful they didn't alter it any further, by Avellone's own admission the smart decision would have been to cut even more content.

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

NWN with some modules are almost as good. But yeah, BG2 was the peak of Bioware, and the last good Bioware game that wasnt an expansion.

[QUOTE="Falconoffury"]

This post illustrates that there is not only something terribly wrong with Bioware, but the PC games industry in general. Is there a Baldur's Gate 2 equivalent today? Does anything even come within viewing distance?

Jabby250

Drakensang: The River of Time is probably as close as you get.

And it is because of comments like this, you are the running joke on this site. Completely misunderstanding what others say and try to use it as ammunition against them...

I am against cybering, but romance between players>romance between player and NPC, especially when the romances are poorly written. Like in every Bioware game.

BG2 and DAO are my favorite games from Them.

BG series, DAO and KOTOR are the only games from them that i can say i really like.

Drakensang: The River of Time is probably as close as you get.

Maroxad

Nah bro, they're good at roleplaying but suck at everything else. And I like Chris Avellone though his fandom which spam message boards with him headbopping and wearing a headset and stuff like that is annoying.

I'm not saying they have bad writers but they're not as good as their rabid fanbase makes them out to be.

KotOR II was full of plotholes:

- The Jedi Exile being the last Jedi doesn't make any sense at all. What about Bastila? She's arguably more famous than the Exile and you even get to meet her in the game if Revan was good.

- Where the hell do these Sith Lords come from? I can understand that Kreia was in hiding, but the others? What an ass pull.

- The ending I won't even touch; I don't even find out who survived and I'm not really sure why Goto betrays you.

-- I've spent a significant amount of time with the game (obviously I've finished it), but I still have no f---- idea what I'm supposed to be doing the entire game. I have to assemble all the Jedi Masters who went into hiding. Okay, I do that, then Kreia kills them all. Great. I've spend 3/4 of the entire game for nothing. Then I go kill the Sith Lords myself.

How does that make any sense to you Obsidian fanboys? And you keep bragging about Black Isle's intelligent writing. Cool story bros, I can write pseudo-philosophical babble myself and pretend it's so convoluted that it's deep.

Jabby250

Tell me, SINCE WHEN Black Isle did KoTOR 2?

You need some serious update.

[QUOTE="Jabby250"]Nah bro, they're good at roleplaying but suck at everything else. And I like Chris Avellone though his fandom which spam message boards with him headbopping and wearing a headset and stuff like that is annoying.

I'm not saying they have bad writers but they're not as good as their rabid fanbase makes them out to be.

KotOR II was full of plotholes:

- The Jedi Exile being the last Jedi doesn't make any sense at all. What about Bastila? She's arguably more famous than the Exile and you even get to meet her in the game if Revan was good.

- Where the hell do these Sith Lords come from? I can understand that Kreia was in hiding, but the others? What an ass pull.

- The ending I won't even touch; I don't even find out who survived and I'm not really sure why Goto betrays you.

-- I've spent a significant amount of time with the game (obviously I've finished it), but I still have no f---- idea what I'm supposed to be doing the entire game. I have to assemble all the Jedi Masters who went into hiding. Okay, I do that, then Kreia kills them all. Great. I've spend 3/4 of the entire game for nothing. Then I go kill the Sith Lords myself.

How does that make any sense to you Obsidian fanboys? And you keep bragging about Black Isle's intelligent writing. Cool story bros, I can write pseudo-philosophical babble myself and pretend it's so convoluted that it's deep.

Lithos_

Tell me, SINCE WHEN Black Isle did KoTOR 2?

You need some serious update.

Obsidian was founded by former members of Black Isle.ArchonOver

Yes, but not all of them. That's what I said in my first post here: some teams cannot be disbanded, like Black Isle or Origin's team behind the Ultima series.

It's like Led Zeppelin: John Bonham died, could not be replaced. If he was, than that would be another band, not Led Zeppelin anymore. Never.

Obsidian is not Black Isle, I was talking solely about Black Isle. They worked magic.

.

Edit: It's just Like Troika Games. Temple of Elemental Evil is fantastic, but did not reach Black Isle's excellence. Former members as well...

Edit 2: Arcanum ALMOST got there, IMO.

[QUOTE="Jabby250"][QUOTE="Maroxad"]

Drakensang: The River of Time is probably as close as you get.

Maroxad

And it is because of comments like this, you are the running joke on this site.

romance between players>romance between player and NPC

There is no 'romance between player and NPC' in any BioWare game you idiot. It's not like one of your sex chat sessions. People like those romance subplots because they care about the characters.

Edit: It's just Like Troika Games. Temple of Elemental Evil is fantastic, but did not reach Black Isle's excellence. Former members as well...

Edit 2: Arcanum ALMOST got there, IMO.Lithos_

Arcanum with ToEE combat would be the best game, ever. Or maybe a post-apocalyptic Arcanum w/ ToEE combat...

Somebody needs to Kickstart that.

[QUOTE="Lithos_"]Edit: It's just Like Troika Games. Temple of Elemental Evil is fantastic, but did not reach Black Isle's excellence. Former members as well...

Edit 2: Arcanum ALMOST got there, IMO.-wildflower-

Arcanum with ToEE combat would be the best game, ever. Or maybe a post-apocalyptic Arcanum w/ ToEE combat...

Somebody needs to Kickstart that.

Watch and weep.

I wonder what happened to this engine. Perhaps it became Onyx? It was supposed to power Obsidian's Aliens RPG announced in 2006.

NWN was a crappy sandbox, at best. KOTOR had an engaging story, but had horrible combat and worse levels. Dragon Age was a fantastic step in the right direction, but 2 sucked in contrast.

I personally believe they've done a good job with Mass Effect, but then again, I see all this complaining about the third's ending, so what do I know.

I wouln't say ir's Bioware, but Black Isle. The Black Isle team was one of those that could not disband, just like the one behind the Ultima series.

They worked magic!

Lithos_

Are we talking about BG2? Cos Black Isle didn't make BG2.

I also don't think Bioware peaked at BG2. I very much enjoyed KOTOR and the entire ME series, and I think DAO is their best game to date.

I think they still had the magic with neverwinter nights and KoToR

IZoMBiEI

I agree with this.

Once Black Isles was no longer around to lend Bioware a "helping hand" it was all downhill.

BG2 was the last Bioware game I can honestly say I really liked. There are a few games/expansions here and there that I've been able to tolerate since then, with varying degrees of success, but BG2 was the last one I truly enjoyed. KotoR has the honor of being the first Bioware game I disliked. It felt very "consolized" and the shift in focus from game-play to corny cinematic storytelling wasn't something I cared for, either.

Bioware's modern games seem to draw inspiration more from JRPGs than traditional PC RPGs or tabletop games and that's why I've pretty much lost all interest and respect for their work.

-wildflower-

Surprised to see someone with actual good taste on here.

The games industry as a whole has pretty much gone backwards over the last decade or so in terms of gameplay,depth and several other key elements which for many make a game great... Seriously, look at the top 5 games of any genre 10 years ago and compare them to the top 5 games of the same genre today...pretty much nothing would deserves a spot on the old lists. Games are just so dumbed down these days, for the casual gamer who turns his console on for an hour or two at the weekend because thats where the money is to be made sadly. The final fantasy series is a great example of this... Very few games have impressed me in the last several years and the ones that have are mostly remakes of old classics..ive been using a computer that is very outdated hardware wise relative to the specs required to run todays games and its only diablo III that has made me consider finally upgrading. anab0lic

NWN with some modules are almost as good. But yeah, BG2 was the peak of Bioware, and the last good Bioware game that wasnt an expansion.

[QUOTE="Falconoffury"]

This post illustrates that there is not only something terribly wrong with Bioware, but the PC games industry in general. Is there a Baldur's Gate 2 equivalent today? Does anything even come within viewing distance?

Maroxad

Drakensang: The River of Time is probably as close as you get.