FFXI or Guild Wars?

I'm looking to get into an MMORPG and do not recommend WoW because i've already played that garbage. It's between FFXI or Guild Wars. I already own GW Factions and Nightfall and Plan on purchasing prophecies and eye of the north. If I have all four will I unlock exclusive content while playing the first one for the first time?

While I really like the single player versions of Final Fantasy, the mmo versions aren't that good, so I would recommend Guild Wars. And having all 4 chapters mean you can do it all.

None of the above. FFXI is a shamelessly boring grindfest and GW is a little kid trying to sit at the big kids table.Alaris83

Haha, ya sure whatever man! Well then give me a little fork and knife so I can EAT it ALL up! Too funny.

I mean like weapons and such that will help me with the first campaign.MJ0LNIR_SPARTAN

Anyways, I believe if you want exclusive weapons you have to buy a pre-release pack. Just go to the Guild Wars store and see what there is to offer.

I aim to please!

To be a bit more serious, though, I really don't understand the hype surrounding Guild Wars. It takes many elements from the MMO genre and then fails to improve on them, leaving us with a very shallow and repetative game.

I aim to please!

To be a bit more serious, though, I really don't understand the hype surrounding Guild Wars. It takes many elements from the MMO genre and then fails to improve on them, leaving us with a very shallow and repetative game.

Alaris83

In other words, you just don't understand (ie ignorance). And shallow? Have you really ever played Guild Wars? It has one of the deepest and most complex group PvP system ever made....

Sounds like you really just don't have a single clue of what you are talking about...

Not everyone plays PVP, perhaps?

Like I mentioned above, the game mimics many of the aspects of a typical MMO, such as long term gameplay and masses of players, but really fails on that player aspect because you only ever see those masses in the town hubs. And that, itself, amounts to little more than reading a spammed out chat log. Since the combat zones are instanced, you never run across random people in the wilds, which really is one of the big appeals of an MMORPG. In other words, there is a total disconnect from the fact that it's Massively Multiplayer. That leaves us, ultimately, with just an Online Role Playing Game. If I wanted something in that vein, I suppose I should just play Diablo 2, where mindless hack and slash has been done adequately since 2001.

But then again, I haven't "really ever played Guild Wars" so I "just don't have a single clue of what" I am talking about.

Not everyone plays PVP, perhaps?

Like I mentioned above, the game mimics many of the aspects of a typical MMO, such as long term gameplay and masses of players, but really fails on that player aspect because you only ever see those masses in the town hubs. And that, itself, amounts to little more than reading a spammed out chat log. Since the combat zones are instanced, you never run across random people in the wilds, which really is one of the big appeals of an MMORPG. In other words, there is a total disconnect from the fact that it's Massively Multiplayer. That leaves us, ultimately, with just an Online Role Playing Game. If I wanted something in that vein, I suppose I should just play Diablo 2, where mindless hack and slash has been done adequately since 2001.

But then again, I haven't "really ever played Guild Wars" so I "just don't have a single clue of what" I am talking about.

Alaris83

/facepalm

You don't even understand what kind of game Guild Wars is.

#1 It's not even a MMO, not even the developers claim it is. So the fact they brought the (almost) massiveness of a MMO, for FREE (no sub fees) is a supreme accomplishment. So to say they "fail" becuase it's not quite as massive as real MMO is quite frankly retarded. The cost of having no fees is they couldn't do true persistent worlds, though they did an absolutely amazing job.

And you say "but really fails on that player aspect"? How did they fail? They have won tons of awards, the game has exceptional reviews, and has sold MILLIONS of copies. That sounds like quite an accomplishment for a game that "fails" it's players. Tell me, do you just pull your arguments out of your arse?

#2 The game has lots of trading, grouping, and pvp. To say it's just a glorified chat log, again, is absolutely moronic. So just becuase you can't run into other people in the "wild" it makes the games grouping nothing more then a spammed out chat log? Get real man...

"That leaves us, ultimately, with just an Online Role Playing Game."

LOL...which is EXACTLY what ArenaNET wants it to be. The fact it's so massive and so many people compare it to real MMO's shows the absolutely amazing job they did.

"If I wanted something in that vein, I suppose I should just play Diablo 2, where mindless hack and slash has been done adequately since 2001."

Ya...because diablo II offers even half of what Guild Wars does :rolleyes:

And yes, your ignorance is apparant and we can all see you really don't have a clue...

I thought GW had horrible production value, felt very dated even when it was new. (PVE) as for PvP, it was almost like a card game - yeah there was strategy, but that was it. Weapons/Armor imo made not much difference (Original GW, maybe its changed?)

Still, for being F2P after initial purchase(s), it's beyond worth it compared to P2P MMO's.

FFXI is hideous, let me describe it for you like I do to any friend who asks me about it.

Takes 4-6 hours to get level 6, after level 10 you need to group with 5 people to kill one monster - which takes 3-5 minutes to kill and only gets slower.

It's absolutely boring supergrind fest, when I played it @ launch I thought i was doing something horribly wrong exp wise.

After you manage to get higher level, you get to start over again for subclasses!

Novel idea, wretched gameplay mechanicx.

/facepalm

You don't even understand what kind of game Guild Wars is.

#1 It's not even a MMO, not even the developers claim it is. So the fact they brought the (almost) massiveness of a MMO, for FREE (no sub fees) is a supreme accomplishment. So to say they "fail" becuase it's not quite as massive as real MMO is quite frankly retarded. The cost of having no fees is they couldn't do true persistent worlds, though they did an absolutely amazing job.

And you say "but really fails on that player aspect"? How did they fail? They have won tons of awards, the game has exceptional reviews, and has sold MILLIONS of copies. That sounds like quite an accomplishment for a game that "fails" it's players. Tell me, do you just pull your arguments out of your arse?

#2 The game has lots of trading, grouping, and pvp. To say it's just a glorified chat log, again, is absolutely moronic. So just becuase you can't run into other people in the "wild" it makes the games grouping nothing more then a spammed out chat log? Get real man...

"That leaves us, ultimately, with just an Online Role Playing Game."

LOL...which is EXACTLY what ArenaNET wants it to be. The fact it's so massive and so many people compare it to real MMO's shows the absolutely amazing job they did.

"If I wanted something in that vein, I suppose I should just play Diablo 2, where mindless hack and slash has been done adequately since 2001."

Ya...because diablo II offers even half of what Guild Wars does :rolleyes:

And yes, your ignorance is apparant and we can all see you really don't have a clue...

dnuggs40

I'm looking to get into an MMORPG

MJ0LNIR_SPARTAN

I was refutting YOUR statements regrading it's a "shallow" and "repedative" game, along with the crap in YOUR second post. So I don't understand exactly what bearing that has on anything I said towards YOU. He also said:

"I already own GW Factions and Nightfall and Plan on purchasing prophecies and eye of the north. If I have all four will I unlock exclusive content while playing the first one for the first time?"

Hense, he already knows what kind of game GW is. Nice attempt at spinning anyways...

So even from that aspect (what the OP is looking for) YOU are the one who actually fails again, considering the OP ALREADY HAS 2 CHAPTERS,

Dnuggs40, how does him already owning 2 chapters of GW make me fail? Do I own stock in the Keep People From Buying Guild Wars Company? All I've ever done here is give my two cents on the topic. In this case it was that FFXI isn't fun and that Guild Wars fails as an MMORPG. Instead, you came in with a chip on your shoulder and started throwing around personal attacks. You can keep "refuting" my opinion all you want, but I don't see how you would know it better than I do.

I'll stand by my original statements, till someone comes in here and presents a rational and thought out rebuttal.

Becuase it is obviously not a shallow game, which is was what I was refutting. Then you tried to spin it by saying I failed becuase he was looking for a MMORPG (like I misunderstood the topic), when he specifically already said he owns GW.

You are simply trying to wiggle at this point.

And I am sorry for any attacks, but I am getting real sick of all the generlizations and mis-characterizations that get made over and over on game forums these days. Sure....things can be subjective...not that subjective though.

The characterization that GW is a shallow game is just rediculous, even if you don't like playing it.

Yeah, it did seem shallow and repetative to me. I would routinely wander through the combat zones spamming the same attacks on the same enemies. I wasn't enjoying myself, even after a second try. Did I not give the game enough of a chance? Maybe, but in that case is it not the burden of the developers to hook the player right away? I understand that the game is mostly focused on PVP, but if you're providing alternative gameplay, you're just as open to judgement on that other portion, and in this case it was the PVE that failed to impress.

When a game is trumpeted by so many as the alternative to the pay to play MMO model, and then leaves me feeling like the game is lacking, well, that doesn't really help the unconventional MMORPG argument. In this case, is Guild Wars an MMORPG? No. Do people still consider it an MMORPG? Unfortunately, yes. Is it fair to compare it to traditional MMORPGs? Probably not. Is it going to happen anyways? Well I think we already have our answer for that.

Get Guild Wars, i love the Final Fantasy SINGLEPLAYER games, but the online one was horrible IMO.

[QUOTE="Alaris83"]

I aim to please!

To be a bit more serious, though, I really don't understand the hype surrounding Guild Wars. It takes many elements from the MMO genre and then fails to improve on them, leaving us with a very shallow and repetative game.

dnuggs40

In other words, you just don't understand (ie ignorance). And shallow? Have you really ever played Guild Wars? It has one of the deepest and most complex group PvP system ever made....

Sounds like you really just don't have a single clue of what you are talking about...

It's a deep PvP system wrapped around with frustrating brick walls in every step. Not only do you need to buy every expansion to even be close to competitive but you need to partake of the campaign, which is horribly boring and repetitive. It's also a shame that outside of skills, character customization is nonexistant. Why bother even putting in items? Seems that augmentations are more than enough.

Oh, and for the TC, avoid FFXI at all costs. The game is an abomination of the franchise. WoW, at the end of the day, is the most well designed and well polished of any MMO out there. Unless you like grindfests (I mean grindfests thousands of times worse than WoW), MMOs may not be the genre for you.

You can earn all your skills by doing PvP...

It used to be that way, but with the addition of faction points you can buy skills/items with points you win from straight up PvP.

*sigh*

Also, I thought the campaign was very fun, and nearly every reviewer on the planet as well as millions of players agree. You may not like it, which is fine, but I really think you put too much weight into your opinion.

Not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the assesment "horribly boring and repetitive" is just silly.

You can earn all your skills by doing PvP...

It used to be that way, but with the addition of faction points you can buy skills/items with points you win from straight up PvP.

*sigh*

Also, I thought the campaign was very fun, and nearly every reviewer on the planet as well as millions of players agree. You may not like it, which is fine, but I really think you put too much weight into your opinion.

Not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the assesment "horribly boring and repetitive" is just silly.

dnuggs40

You earn skills through PvP....yet you can only get them when you make a brand spanking new PvP character if you are using a PvP character which doesn't cross over to the RPG character. Yay. Doesn't help that it takes forever to get a RPG character competitive when a PvP character basically gives you something to work with, sans the abilities.

As for thinking that the campaign was fun, you are right. You are right to say that you thought the campaign was fun, because I sure as hell didn't. As for millions of players and reviewers agreeing with the general consensus that "Guild Wars campaign was fun", where are you getting that stat? Maybe those players see the campaign as a means to an end to participate in what is really the main attraction of Guild Wars, i.e. the PvP? Or maybe they are just in it for their guilds? Just a thought. Try not to make sweeping statements you cannot prove.

By the way, as each GW expansion was released, the overall score from reviewers got lower and lower. Clearly this is evidence that the formula isn't staying as fresh as it once was.

Anyways, let me leave you by saying that I do put quite a bit of weight behind my opinion because (get this) it's my opinion. I can say things like "horribly boring and repetitive" because those are my thoughts. To say that my opinion is less valid than your thought is even more silly. If you want to say that Guild Wars is fantastic, go ahead. I won't stop you because technically, in your mind, you are not wrong. However, in my mind, after playing Prophecy and Factions, I really don't care for the series at all due to the inherit flaws of the game design. It tries to do quite a bit of things but fails at some and excell at others. Unfortunately, in my view, the parts that fail are forced upon you, which turned me off.

If you don't agree, that's your business but the truth is that my thoughts are not any less sillier than your thoughts. Simple.

You earn skills through PvP....yet you can only get them when you make a brand spanking new PvP character if you are using a PvP character which doesn't cross over to the RPG character. Yay.Redmoonxl2

you just said you hated the PvE, and when they give a way to gain PvP skills WITHOUT PvE you complain? lol... :boggle:

As for millions of players and reviewers agreeing with the general consensus that "Guild Wars campaign was fun", where are you getting that stat?Redmoonxl2

Tell me, what makes more sense...

a) The game is really "horribly boring and repetitive" and all the millions of people that play it, and the countless reviewers who praise it are just morons who are easily amused. The nay-sayers actually understand the game better then the people who like it.

-or-

b) The game is great, and the result of it being a solid game is million of people purchase it, and reviewers praise it. However, not everyone will like the game or its mechanics, or will prefer other games.

As for millions of players and reviewers agreeing with the general consensus that "Guild Wars campaign was fun", where are you getting that stat? Maybe those players see the campaign as a means to an end to participate in what is really the main attraction of Guild Wars, i.e. the PvP? Or maybe they are just in it for their guilds? Just a thought. Try not to make sweeping statements you cannot prove. Redmoonxl2

Lets see, millions of people have bought the game, countless reviews have praised the campaign as fun and large, and at any given time there are THOUSANDS of players playing the campaign ;)

Thats a hell of a thing if the campaing was actually "teh suxxors!!!1111!!!one"

By the way, as each GW expansion was released, the overall score from reviewers got lower and lower. Clearly this is evidence that the formula isn't staying as fresh as it once was.Redmoonxl2

And that proves what? BTW, ALL exapnsions have rated 8.0+, which by gamespots rating sysem is "GREAT". You kill your own argument.

Anyways, let me leave you by saying that I do put quite a bit of weight behind my opinion because (get this) it's my opinion. I can say things like "horribly boring and repetitive" because those are my thoughts. To say that my opinion is less valid than your thought is even more silly. If you want to say that Guild Wars is fantastic, go ahead. I won't stop you because technically, in your mind, you are not wrong. However, in my mind, after playing Prophecy and Factions, I really don't care for the series at all due to the inherit flaws of the game design. It tries to do quite a bit of things but fails at some and excell at others. Unfortunately, in my view, the parts that fail are forced upon you, which turned me off. Redmoonxl2

Things are not as subjective as you want everyone to believe. You can say you don't like BMW's, which is fine, but when you cross over and make the claim they are poorly engineered cars thats where your opinion looses validity. Same applies here, you are free to dislike guild wars or find it boring, but when you make the claim the game is actually horrible you cross that line.

I wish they would stop telling people in pre-school that everyone's opinion is equal...it's simply not true.

I would take the opinion about good food from a world class food critic over the word of some slob who eats grilled cheese 3 times a day...wouldn't you?

*snip*

dnuggs40

You know, for a person claiming that Guild Wars is not the best thing since slice bread, you certainly argue like a GW fanboy.

"you just said you hated the PvE, and when they give a way to gain PvP skills WITHOUT PvE you complain? lol... :boggle"

Yes, I'll complain when the attempt to gain all of the skills through a PvP character requires you to create, delete and create a character over and over again. That is tedious and horrible game design.

"Tell me, what makes more sense...

a) The game is really "horribly boring and repetitive" and all the millions of people that play it, and the countless reviewers who praise it are just morons who are easily amused. The nay-sayers actually understand the game better then the people who like it.

-or-

b) The game is great, and the result of it being a solid game is million of people purchase it, and reviewers praise it. However, not everyone will like the game or its mechanics, or will prefer other games."

I love when people such as yourself use ultimatums. Signs of a person with the inability to take criticism when their precious game is attacked. By the way, millions of people bough 50 Cent Bulletproof. Something to think about...

Anyways, I already made it clear that "horribly boring and repetitive" is my view, thus nullifying this ridiculous attempt at winning an argument. I wouldn't be too surprised if a large portion of the GW community agrees with me and just plays the game because their friends play and/or to compete in PvP.

"Lets see, millions of people have bought the game, countless reviews have praised the campaign as fun and large, and at any given time there are THOUSANDS of players playing the campaign ;)

Thats a hell of a thing if the campaing was actually "teh suxxors!!!1111!!!one""

Read the statement above. By the way, you have yet to prove that the Guild Wars community is a single being capable of only agreeing with the campaign being the main attraction of the game.

"And that proves what? BTW, ALL exapnsions have rated 8.0+, which by gamespots rating sysem is "GREAT". You kill your own argument."

So you are going to pretend that each expansion didn't receive lower scores with each release when compared to Prophecy? Alright there, buddy. The OG GW got high scores, yes, but as years and expansions passed, the formula is not what it used to be, which is my counterpoint to you bringing up reviewers.

"Things are not as subjective as you want everyone to believe. You can say you don't like BMW's, which is fine, but when you cross over and make the claim they are poorly engineered cars thats where your opinion looses validity. Same applies here, you are free to dislike guild wars or find it boring, but when you make the claim the game is actually horrible you cross that line.

I wish they would stop telling people in pre-school that everyone's opinion is equal...it's simply not true."

Opinions on video games and cars are not even comparable. Video games is entertainment. Their value varies from person to person because everybody has a different idea on entertainment value. Cars rate their value based on actual, tangible parts and performance. You can't even compare entertainment value with the worth of a car because you can always come to a conclusion on a car's worth based on it's parts and performance. Gameplay value is govern entirely by opinion, hense the reason why people hate numerous "popular" games. There is no universal opinion when it comes to any game, live with that.

Funny how you attempt to lecture me yet you can't tell the difference between entertainment value and tangible value.:|

I would take the opinion about good food from a world ****food critic over the word of some slob who eats grilled cheese 3 times a day...wouldn't you?

What the hell does that even mean?

Of course they are comparable, they both are engineered, they both have comparable performance and can be rated against their competitition. Things like graphics, sounds, performance, ease of use, level design, content, ect are all metrics that can be easily compared. Again, you want everyone to believe that it's just all so subjective and everyone's opinion is exactly equal. It's simply not the case.

In your world, games doing well would be completely random huh? How would a developer ever create and sell a great game if it was all so subjective? The simple FACT is it's not, and thats why great games do well, and piss poor games (see big rigs) don't and get blasted by reviewers. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but thats just what they are, exceptions.

Sorry, live in bizzaro world all you want, but the world doesn't work like that. Filet Minon doesn't taste worse then a **** sandwich, and a 3rd graders paper on super man in not superior to a Shakespeare play.

Guld Wars by every metric is a good game, this is undeniable.

love when people such as yourself use ultimatums. Signs of a person with the inability to take criticism when their precious game is attacked. By the way, millions of people bough 50 Cent Bulletproof. Something to think about...

Precious game? I haven't played the game in YEARS. Just tired of people like you who are so full of themselves and their own opinion, that they actually believe becuase they dislike a game, taht it must actually be horrible and everyone else is just retards.

50 Cent Bulletproof received TERRIBLE reviews anyways. Something to think about ;)

See the difference?

Of course they are comparable, they both are engineered, they both have comparable performance and can be rated against their competitition. Things like graphics, sounds, performance, ease of use, level design, content, ect are all metrics that can be easily compared. Again, you want everyone to believe that it's just all so subjective and everyone's opinion is exactly equal. It's simply not the case.dnuggs40

You fail to acknowledge the mere fact that a game's value is dependent on the gamer, not the sum of it's parts. Gaming is very subjective, otherwise there wouldn't be people telling me whether or not a game is fun. The mere word "fun" is subjective. The mere fact that we are arguing on how "fun" GW's campaign is shows that this is a subjective topic, not objective.

Get over yourself.

In your world, games doing well would be completely random huh? How would a developer ever create and sell a great game if it was all so subjective? The simple FACT is it's not, and thats why great games do well, and piss poor games (see big rigs) don't and get blasted by reviewers. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but thats just what they are, exceptions.

Sorry, live in bizzaro world all you want, but the world doesn't work like that. Filet Minon doesn't taste worse then a **** sandwich, and a 3rd graders paper on super man in not superior to a Shakespeare play.dnuggs40

Yes, in the real world, games doing well is completely random, hense why games like 50 Cent: Bulletproof can sell millions while "Psychonauts" and "Beyond Good and Evil" fail to break a few hundred thousand. How many copies did Panzer Dragoon Orta and Uncharted sell again? If there are exceptions to your "rule", that alone proves that game sales are random.

Guld Wars by every metric is a good game, this is undeniable.

dnuggs40

But I just denied it. :|

Oh snap, PARADOX!

"Yes, in the real world, games doing well is completely random, hense why games like 50 Cent: Bulletproof can sell millions while "Psychonauts" and "Beyond Good and Evil" fail to break a few hundred thousand. How many copies did Panzer Dragoon Orta and Uncharted sell again? If there are exceptions to your "rule", that alone proves that game sales are random."

its not completely random, its a matter of marketing, advertising, word of mouth, etc. if it was random there would be no explanation behind it when there are clearly explanations. people see the name 50 cent and will buy simply for that. it makes no difference if the game is good or not. there's no such thing as "random", there's always a reason behind it.

"Yes, in the real world, games doing well is completely random, hense why games like 50 Cent: Bulletproof can sell millions while "Psychonauts" and "Beyond Good and Evil" fail to break a few hundred thousand. How many copies did Panzer Dragoon Orta and Uncharted sell again? If there are exceptions to your "rule", that alone proves that game sales are random."

its not completely random, its a matter of marketing, advertising, word of mouth, etc. if it was random there would be no explanation behind it when there are clearly explanations. people see the name 50 cent and will buy simply for that. it makes no difference if the game is good or not. there's no such thing as "random", there's always a reason behind it.

chesterocks7

Even marketing, word of mouth, etc. doesn't help in many cases, recent examples being "Ratchet and Clank" and "Uncharted". "Super Mario Galaxy", being Gamespot's GOTY and another addition to the most well known franchise in gaming history, flopped in sales back in Japan.

Customer buying habits is never the same tomorrow when compared to today.

You fail to acknowledge the mere fact that a game's value is dependent on the gamer, not the sum of it's parts. Gaming is very subjective, otherwise there wouldn't be people telling me whether or not a game is fun. The mere word "fun" is subjective. The mere fact that we are arguing on how "fun" GW's campaign is shows that this is a subjective topic, not objective.

Get over yourself. Redmoonxl2

Wrong, a game's value is very much dependant on the sum of it's parts. The engineers who develop games study game design for years. What would they study if it was just subjective? It NOT subjective. There are key elements to game design that hold true.

Yes,in the real world games doing well is completely random, hense why games like 50 Cent: Bulletproof can sell millions while "Psychonauts" and "Beyond Good and Evil" fail to break a few hundred thousand. How many copies did Panzer Dragoon Orta and Uncharted sell again? If there are exceptions to your "rule", that alone proves that game sales are random.Redmoonxl2

It's not random. Both those games are in niche genres, which explains why they didn't get great sales. Yet BOTH those games got high scores. How is that possible if it was random? It's not random, thats why. they are both well developed games that fall in a niche genre, which explains poor sales. there are perfectly reasonable explanations for things like that.

Just like your 50 cent example...it sold becuase of marketing and hype and becuase some people will buy anything that has a famous person's face on it. Yet even that game, which sold well, still received piss poor reviews...how is that possible in this completely random and subjective world you live in?

It's not random, thats how.

And if you really believe the world is so subjective and random, then it is you who needs to grow up and learn how the world works.

[QUOTE="chesterocks7"]

"Yes, in the real world, games doing well is completely random, hense why games like 50 Cent: Bulletproof can sell millions while "Psychonauts" and "Beyond Good and Evil" fail to break a few hundred thousand. How many copies did Panzer Dragoon Orta and Uncharted sell again? If there are exceptions to your "rule", that alone proves that game sales are random."

its not completely random, its a matter of marketing, advertising, word of mouth, etc. if it was random there would be no explanation behind it when there are clearly explanations. people see the name 50 cent and will buy simply for that. it makes no difference if the game is good or not. there's no such thing as "random", there's always a reason behind it.

Redmoonxl2

Even marketing, word of mouth, etc. doesn't help in many cases, recent examples being "Ratchet and Clank" and "Uncharted". "Super Mario Galaxy", being Gamespot's GOTY and another addition to the most well known franchise in gaming history, flopped in sales back in Japan.

Customer buying habits is never the same tomorrow when compared to today.

it doesnt help in some cases, but it is a major factor. sometimes its the other games that came out at that time. look at arx fatalis. an amazing adventure game, but it came out the same time as tes:morrowind. bad luck. but i dont think any game that was a good game in general with good marketing would do bad, because the games that have good marketing get reviewed by gaming critics, which is huge publicity for them. then the reviews have a huge impact on sales. ive never even heard of ratchet and clank or uncharted and i read gamespot daily so they couldnt have been that well advertised. and i dont follow japan sales, but ive heard nothing but good things about super mario galaxy, and i dont even follow wii or nintendo consoles at all. customer buying habits may change from day to day but they certainly arent random.

Wrong, a game's value is very much dependant on the sum of it's parts. The engineers who develop games study game design for years. What would they study if it was just subjective? It NOT subjective. There are key elements to game design that hold true.dnuggs40

I think I made it very, very clear that when I say "Game Value", I mean the value a gamer puts on the game AKA it's fun factor. You are so off track from this basic concept that you might start arguing that the janitors at game companies are vital to the fun of their games. :|

[QUOTE="Redmoonxl2"]Yes,in the real world games doing well is completely random, hense why games like 50 Cent: Bulletproof can sell millions while "Psychonauts" and "Beyond Good and Evil" fail to break a few hundred thousand. How many copies did Panzer Dragoon Orta and Uncharted sell again? If there are exceptions to your "rule", that alone proves that game sales are random.dnuggs40

It's not random. Both those games are in niche genres, which explains why they didn't get great sales. Yet BOTH those games got high scores. How is that possible if it was random? It's not random, thats why. they are both well developed games that fall in a niche genre, which explains poor sales.

Action/Adventure is a niche genre? Seriously, what are you talking about?

And we're talking about game sales relative to their quality, btw. By your logic, great games with great scores always sell because game sales are never random.

...:lol:

[QUOTE="Redmoonxl2"]But I just denied it. :|

Oh snap, PARADOX!dnuggs40

You didn't deny it, you simply think your opinion out wieghs the bulk of the gaming community (players, reviewers, ect).

Correct, because my enjoyment on X game is more important than other people's enjoyment on X game. If I go by a recommendation, I'm not playing a game for the guy who recommended the game to me, I'm playing it for myself. Is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?

I think I made it very, very clear that when I say "Game Value", I mean the value a gamer puts on the game AKA it's fun factor. Redmoonxl2

YOU claim a mechanic (the campaign) is horrible, thats what I am refutting. You try to stay on track ok?

Action/Adventure is a niche genre? Seriously, what are you talking about?

And we're talking about game sales relative to their quality, btw. By your logic, great games with great scores always sell because game sales are never random.

...Redmoonxl2

Uh...ya...where have you been? You think adventure games are a mainstream pc genre? Maybe 10 years ago they were popular, not today. Seriously....do you even think about what you are saying? Top genres are FPS, RTS, RPG, MMO...adventure games fell off that list years ago...how many platform adventure games you see getting released ever year? Not a whole lot, and thats because THEY DONT SELL WELL ON THE PC.

Correct, because my enjoyment on X game is more important than other people's enjoyment on X game. If I go by a recommendation, I'm not playing a game for the guy who recommended the game to me, I'm playing it for myself. Is that such a hard concept for you to graspRedmoonxl2

Fine, but don't run around claiming something is horrble then ;)

You are free to enjoy/dislike what you want, but when you start making claims that X is horrible, it better be based off of something other then your poor taste.

YOU claim a mechanic (the campaign) is horrible, thats what I am refutting. You try to stay on track ok?dnuggs40

We're talking about my opinion. You cannot refute an opinion unless something factual comes into play. For example, if I said "GW sucks, I find that the campaign is boring and forced on you to advance" that's an opinion through and through. If I said "GW sucks because it lacks magic skills" that is refutable because I stated something incorrectly.

Mind if you stay on track, okay, kiddo?

Uh...ya...where have you been? You think adventure games are a mainstream pc genre? Maybe 10 years ago they were popular, not today. Seriously....do you even think about what you are saying? Top genres are FPS, RTS, RPG, MMO...adventure games fell off that list years ago...dnuggs40

Funny how you keep telling me to stay on track yet you try to narrow the sales argument to one platform. Again, follow along kiddo, I'm talking about games in general, otherwise I wouldn't bring up "Uncharted" as it's clearly a PS3 title.

Fine, but don't run around claiming something is horrble then ;)

You are free to enjoy/dislike what you want, but when you start making claims that X sucks, it better be based off of something other then your poor taste.

dnuggs40

Poor taste is, yet again, subjective, not objective. It's your opinion I have bad taste while I think my tastes are just fine. You can't prove your taste is superior because the fact is that it's not shared by everybody else. You may find people with similar taste as your but I can do the same as well.

Man, opinions is such a hard concept to grasp, ain't that right, kiddo?

And if you really believe the world is so subjective and random, then it is you who needs to grow up and learn how the world works.

dnuggs40

The world is random and subjective. People think life sucks while others think life is grand. People have different definitions for everything from love to hate all the while I can win the lotto tomorrow or get hit by a bus due to an accident. What are you, 12? 13? I ask because anybody with some age and experience under their belt knows that life is a chaotic thing and that's just fine.

[Funny how you keep telling me to stay on track yet you try to narrow the sales argument to one platform. Again, follow along kiddo, I'm talking about games in general, otherwise I wouldn't bring up "Uncharted" as it's clearly a PS3 title. Redmoonxl2

LOL...what platform are we discussing? What platform is the game in question on? Isn't that a given? Good lord...

We're talking about my opinion. You cannot refute an opinion unless something factual comes into play. For example, if I said "GW sucks, I find that the campaign is boring and forced on you to advance" that's an opinion through and through. If I said "GW sucks because it lacks magic skills" that is refutable because I stated something incorrectly.

Mind if you stay on track, okay, kiddo?Redmoonxl2

Think you need a reminder:

It's a deep PvP system wrapped around with frustrating brick walls in every step. Not only do you need to buy every expansion to even be close to competitive but you need to partake of the campaign, which is horribly boring and repetitive. It's also a shame that outside of skills, character customization is nonexistant. Why bother even putting in items? Seems that augmentations are more than enough.Redmoonxl2

#1 - You dont need every expansion, as you can buy unlocks, and even without them you can still fairly well in PvP. Maybe not top teir, but well enough.

#2 - As already proven, you don't need to do the PvE to unlock skills. So ANOTHER fallacy.

#3 - Idiotic and untrue baloney about the items. So non-existent huh? So I guess lvl 1 items are as good as lvl 20? Really? I mean, thats what you suggest by saying "non-existent" right?

The world is random and subjective. People think life sucks while others think life is grand. People have different definitions for everything from love to hate all the while I can win the lotto tomorrow or get hit by a bus due to an accident. What are you, 12? 13? I ask because anybody with some age and experience under their belt knows that life is a chaotic thing and that's just fine. Redmoonxl2

Life is NOT random and subjective. I believe the phrase goes:

"Things happen for a reason"

-not-

"Things happen for no reason"

You live like a sad fool, your life will suck. You don't apply yourself in school and are lazy, you wont get a good job. You treat people like crap, chances are people wont be your friend.

Cause and effect baby, the world is dictated by it, not completely random and unrelated incidents.

Now, there is no garuntee life will be grand if you apply yourself, you can get hit by a bus next week, but to take the exceptions and claim them as the rule and pretend everything is just one big random mess is pure retardation.

I'm looking to get into an MMORPG and do not recommend WoW because i've already played that garbage. It's between FFXI or Guild Wars. I already own GW Factions and Nightfall and Plan on purchasing prophecies and eye of the north. If I have all four will I unlock exclusive content while playing the first one for the first time?

MJ0LNIR_SPARTAN

As much a Final Fantasy nerd as I am, FFXI is old and outdated. Not really worth playing anymore. Any MMORPG that forces you to group with other people to do ANYTHING isn't really worth it anymore.

Guild Wars is a wannabe MMO. I found it completely boring and the camera is extremely annoying to me. I don't know about Final Fantasy but GW is not a game I would personally recommend. Im picky though. baddogjmh

But if it's PvP he's looking for then he should pick Guild Wars. FFXI doesn't even really have PvP, and like he said, World of Warcraft is garbage.

[QUOTE="Redmoonxl2"][Funny how you keep telling me to stay on track yet you try to narrow the sales argument to one platform. Again, follow along kiddo, I'm talking about games in general, otherwise I wouldn't bring up "Uncharted" as it's clearly a PS3 title. dnuggs40

LOL...what platform are we discussing? What platform is the game in question on? Isn't that a given? Good lord...

No, it's not a given, kiddo, because gaming sales reaches far beyond one platform. Besides, you certainly didn't have an issue with me bringing console games to the sales argument in the first place and now you have an issue? Pathetic.

#1 - You dont need every expansion, as you can buy unlocks, and even without them you can still fairly well in PvP. Maybe not top teir, but well enough.

#2 - As already proven, you don't need to do the PvE to unlock skills. So ANOTHER fallacy.

#3 - Idiotic and untrue baloney about the items. So non-existent huh? So I guess lvl 1 items are as good as lvl 20? Really? I mean, thats what you suggest by saying "non-existent" right?dnuggs40

Hmm, just to reference back to my original statement...which is...

"It's a deep PvP system wrapped around with frustrating brick walls in every step. Not only do you need to buy every expansion to even be close to competitive but you need to partake of the campaign, which is horribly boring and repetitive. It's also a shame that outside of skills, character customization is nonexistant. Why bother even putting in items? Seems that augmentations are more than enough."

1) You need every expansion for required builds to work. You cannot use BoA Sin as an assassin without Nightfall, fyi.

2) I didn't say you needed to do PvE to unlock skills, I said "Not only do you need to buy every expansion to even be close to competitive but you need to partake of the campaign, which is horribly boring and repetitive." Selective reading for the win? To get the most out of a character, you need to PvE, however, since more customization options are open to you as a result. That is fact.

3) Items are only as good as their augmentations, as I implied in the original post. You're slipping, kiddo!

Life is NOT random and subjective. I believe the phrase goes:

"Things happen for a reason"

-not-

"Things happen for no reason"

You live like a sad fool, your life will suck. You don't apply yourself in school and are lazy, you wont get a good job. You treat people like crap, chances are people wont be your friend.

Cause and effect baby, the world is dictated by it, not completely random and unrelated incidents.

Now, there is no garuntee life will be grand if you apply yourself, you can get hit by a bus next week, but to take the exceptions and claim them as the rule and pretend everything is just one big random mess is pure retardation.

dnuggs40

It's funny that you state life is not random yet you take into account the hypothetical "Bus accident" and admit nothing is a guarantee. Contradiction, much?

School doesn't always bring success. You can treat people like crap and there will be those who follow you. If you think life sucks, you can still live a comfortable life. Lazy people can work high paying jobs while doing absolutely nothing. You can be born with a genetic defect that may only affect 1 out of millions of kids a year. Hell, you can be born to poverty and starve days later. Life is random. You oversimplify things and that's a shame because life is never quite as simple. When you get older, you'll understand. :)

Anyways, I'm tired of arguing with you. feel free to claim "victory" if you want since it's obvious you'll just drag this on for as long as you want to. I think GW is a good PvP game with a bad PvE portion that kills the game for me. If you want to complain about my thoughts on the game, kiddo, I suggest you scream into a pillow and punch a wall because it's obvious you have some growing up to do.

I have been playing guild wars for way over a year and in my opinion the PvP aspect of the game is still completely addictive and fun. It really can be quite competative in that the skill order and timing etc. Also you can spend ages just figuring out a build that will pwn say an elementalist for example, so there is a bit of everything involved in the game especially strategy.

People ever love it or hate it really.

And yes you really should buy prophecies campaign because it is the CORE of guild wars and has many, many useful skills needed for particular skills etc.

ok

A. Typically i think people that thing WoW are trash etheir have not played far enough into the game to relize how awesome it is or have a severe mental illness cause i think WoW is the best mmorpg ever in my opinon

B. Guild Wars Is Pretty Fun im not going to lie its free and it has alot to offer just never hooked me and the when u leave a town theres no1 but ur party thing constally aggravted me i like having other people there

C. FFXIIIXII whatever number is actually a good game for FF vetrans that love the final fantasy gameplay though the game has alot of grinding

Guild Wars IMHO

Watch Pure Grief Videos At - http://www.watchgrief.com

Neither?

If you didn't like WoW, it's extremely unlikely you'll find a salvation in Guild Wars or FF XI

Why waste time with these MMos? For the record I tryed Guild Wars and it utterly failed for enjoyment.

World of Warcraft is the mmo to have currently.