How much violence is too much violence for you?

Hard core violence is okay with me, but when it goes to far like in GTA, Postal, and God of war, they shouldn't have been released. Lets take a look at Left 4 dead, the upcoming zombie shooter from Turtle rock. I have no problem with this game, you aren't killing them with out a cause. You're doing it to survive, in GTA you do it because you want a car. Its just not right. Personaly i think the copies of GTA and Postal should be gathered and burned.

I personnaly dont play violent games, but i think God of War crossed the line a bit

i agree with those that say no limit in context. furthermore being American i live in a sanitized 'reality' in most of my every day media so its a nice change up NOT having my nanny government regulating what i can do in my off time.

i think that its not a bad idea to let people see 'real' violence. more importiant perhaps to be the one responcable for that 'violence'. and maybe think that there are people in this world who will do stuff like what we see in our GAMES, for real. and those same people wouldnt know an X Box from a letter box and when THEY pull the trigger those brains that spray arent just some pixles on a screen but a real living breathing person thats dead.

to those that take exception to some of the more violent game content think about this, people have been doing stuff like that to each other since Adam and Eve got booted from the garden. GTA or GoW didnt invent that kind of violence they just put it into game form. the reason its 'shocking' isnt so much the acts themselves, but rather the fact that most of us are insulated from those kinds of acts and have no experiance with them. but there are still vast tracts of this planet where the 'violence' we see in games is a joke compaired to whats REALLY going on.

ive yet to see anything in a game that can compair to all the ways in real life we have found to commit violence on our fellow man each and every single day. not even close.

Sometimes the violence provided in games or even movies is set the way it is because it adds to the atmosphere. If the violence level is over the top and not needed, it then tends to come off as being either really gross for some or really funny to others.

Take Fallout for example - I love the ability you can pick so that people die in the most horrible way possible when you kill them - it ties into the dark humor that Fallout goes after. If that ability was left out of the game, it wouldn't have hurt my overall opinion about the game, but the option does add to the atmosphere in this case.

Soldier of Fortune was amussing to me because of the ability to blow limbs off - it wasn't needed and didn't really add to the game at all. It seems a bit of an overkill to me.

CS:S uses too much blood. It's nice to know when you hit someone, but when you leave huge splotches of blood on the walls from only hitting a guy in the arm for 3 damage with your pistol after you empty a clip at him tends to be annoying and deceiving.I feel the violence/blood/gore needs to be looked at and toned down or corrected to better reflect the actual outcome of where you hit your target.

The opposite could apply as well - perhaps a game or movie uses too little violence when they should be using more. It's all about balance and atmosphere.

I can't think of any game or moive that falls into the catagory of using too little violence, but I'm sure there are many out there.

personally, i have no upper limit on condition that it makes sense within the game environment - a game called schoolyard slaughterwhere the purpose of the game is to kill as many children as possible as quickly as possible - no way, that's right out... but a game where, as an example, enemy AI is able to take hostages and/or human shields, and children exist in this realistic, real-world envrionment, and ifi'm then placed in a situation where i can get these badguys - at the potential risk of innocent child life, i'd be fine with that

i think nothing is too edgyprovided it serves a realistic purpose in a realistic context... i have read that children have been used as soldiers in civil wars in various african countries - farcry 2 could feature children, not where the purpose is killing children for your pleasure (though this is certainly what the media would focus on), but rather to further a story of the horrific things people will do... i'm sure film and television has more than covered it, why not game?

it also helps create a more immersive gaming environment... if i'm playing a game where i can take a shotgun to someone's face, is it then somehow wrong that the head explodes in a mass of blood, bone and brain matter? should a rainbowcome out instead? i'd still be blowing someone's head off... people seem to be fine with "childish fantasy violence" (see the opening war sequence of the TMNT movie), but as soon as you throw in blood, limbs - i.e. make it realistic, it becomes frowned upon

so it's really not, how much violence is too much for you, it suddenly becomes, how much reality is too realistic for you?

contextual, realistic, and purposeful - and i see no reason to censor violence in entertainment...of course, i say this as an englishman, and we have slightly stricter (i would say much better) systems for selling violent games to younger people

mfsa

I've couldn' say it better!!! Mainly because english is not my first english... after all, I'm a lawyer.

Nice said, though :)

i agree with those that say no limit in context. furthermore being American i live in a sanitized 'reality' in most of my every day media so its a nice change up NOT having my nanny government regulating what i can do in my off time.

i think that its not a bad idea to let people see 'real' violence. more importiant perhaps to be the one responcable for that 'violence'. and maybe think that there are people in this world who will do stuff like what we see in our GAMES, for real. and those same people wouldnt know an X Box from a letter box and when THEY pull the trigger those brains that spray arent just some pixles on a screen but a real living breathing person thats dead.

to those that take exception to some of the more violent game content think about this, people have been doing stuff like that to each other since Adam and Eve got booted from the garden. GTA or GoW didnt invent that kind of violence they just put it into game form. the reason its 'shocking' isnt so much the acts themselves, but rather the fact that most of us are insulated from those kinds of acts and have no experiance with them. but there are still vast tracts of this planet where the 'violence' we see in games is a joke compaired to whats REALLY going on.

ive yet to see anything in a game that can compair to all the ways in real life we have found to commit violence on our fellow man each and every single day. not even close.

jeffcenate

Just because Hitler killed Jews in real life doesn't mean we should have that in video games. I like how horrific examples of the worst behavior in human history by the most twisted phsychopaths to ever walk the planet are okay in a game according to your logic because they happened in real life. I'm sorry that I'm so "insulated" but its a little annoying to think that because some people live in war-ravaged countries you think that violence is a joke.

[QUOTE="jeffcenate"]

i agree with those that say no limit in context. furthermore being American i live in a sanitized 'reality' in most of my every day media so its a nice change up NOT having my nanny government regulating what i can do in my off time.

i think that its not a bad idea to let people see 'real' violence. more importiant perhaps to be the one responcable for that 'violence'. and maybe think that there are people in this world who will do stuff like what we see in our GAMES, for real. and those same people wouldnt know an X Box from a letter box and when THEY pull the trigger those brains that spray arent just some pixles on a screen but a real living breathing person thats dead.

to those that take exception to some of the more violent game content think about this, people have been doing stuff like that to each other since Adam and Eve got booted from the garden. GTA or GoW didnt invent that kind of violence they just put it into game form. the reason its 'shocking' isnt so much the acts themselves, but rather the fact that most of us are insulated from those kinds of acts and have no experiance with them. but there are still vast tracts of this planet where the 'violence' we see in games is a joke compaired to whats REALLY going on.

ive yet to see anything in a game that can compair to all the ways in real life we have found to commit violence on our fellow man each and every single day. not even close.

bob9999999999

Just because Hitler killed Jews in real life doesn't mean we should have that in video games. I like how horrific examples of the worst behavior in human history by the most twisted phsychopaths to ever walk the planet are okay in a game according to your logic because they happened in real life. I'm sorry that I'm so "insulated" but its a little annoying to think that because some people live in war-ravaged countries you think that violence is a joke.

Fictional violence != real violence.

Some people can't discern between fantasy and reality and should avoid violent games. Some people understand the concept that a digital person is not a "person" but a composite of 1's and 0's that is interpreted by your brain as a person.

I'm guessing you're the former.

Is the violence of the game truly based on the actual violence or the cinematics of the violence, the graphic detail of the violence?

People are offering some nasty thoughts on the extremes of violence, so kudos to you all for having a sick and twsited creative mind, and people say that America isn't creative hehe. I think that movies and games take it too far, because like someone else said, I would never watch or play a movie to be disgusted, I'm watching or playing them to have fun. Of course everyone has the choice to buy or not buy a game and that takes care of the stupid lawsuits against video games, or should take care of it. It's a choice, but I know I have limits for my own on that choice, though I enjoyed Soldier Of Fortune 1. I own SOF 2, but i never played it, so should I play it, is it better than the first.

I don't think that the question should be "how much is too much," but rather "how much is necessary." being able to slice somebody up with a machete with no real purpose in a game like GTA is unnecessary. However, go watch the Movie "Hotel Rwanda." There's a good amount of slicing with Machetes in there as well, and alot of it is pretty damn graphic. The difference between that movie and a game like GTA is the way that it's presented. in the movie there is graphic violence to illustrate the atrocities that were comitted, in GTA the option is there simply because it can be.

Of course, I don't hear too many people complaining about how a movie like "Saw" is too violent. hell, people go and watch "Texas Chainsaw Massacre," thenturn around and complain about how you can cut up aliens with a chainsaw in Gears of War. It's a double standard.

So yes, there should be no censorship of violence in games, but there need to be a whole lot more games that add violence for a purpose rather than just shock value.

Me I guess im not a normal human being but I can easily deal with video game violence because I can distinguish between reality and the computer.

I don't think we will ever see children in it being ripped in half although some children can be pains in the asses so you never know....Lol jk jk i know not funny anyway.

So i mean if its a murderous violent game like Gears of War it won't phase me.

I'd have to draw the line with violence against women and children. I don't mean a game like Hitman or Grand Theft Auto where civilians can be hurt, but if Manhunt 2 requires me to brutally rip a woman's spine out, I'll have problems with it. I mean, I'll still do it...it's not like I'm gonna let it ruin the game for me, but it will certainly be unsettling.

well 4 a hardcoregamer liek me nuthings too violent!!!!!

Fictional violence != real violence.D9-THC

For now, but in 20 years, that may not be so.

Which is why folks question, and ask "how much is too much?", because too much of anything isn't good for anyone.

Some folks above mentioned things like violence to women and school violence, what's next in the violence category? Pedophilia? How to make a nuclear weapon from ingame designs? The same with biological warfare plans?

Where's the limit? Because someone is always going to scream, "I have my right to do as I please!!" (they don't, because try arguing that yelling, "FIRE!!" in a crowded theater is a right).

Like the Supremes have said with pornography, they can't define it but they know it when they see it. Same goes with ingame violence. Someone's passion is another's poison. But in the end, some things are best not made into a game, because it's already the reality and another venue for it doesn't help anyone -- especially as "entertainment".

Honestly, I love playing FPS games, and I love the rag doll physics that have been implemented for the last few years and I love seeing the blood spurts on the wall as I shoot my enemy next to a wall and all that good stuff. Maybe I'm morbid, but my perogative right? But how much is too much?

I for one would love to never see a child used as an enemy or a target in a FPS, at least they haven't done that yet. But how far is too far for you?

serieus

There is no such thing as too far. When I was younger, it seemed that games kept getting gorier and gorier, but for the past five years atleast the biz seems to have hit a brick wall where they don't want their games to be too violent and become AO. I for one am extremely disappointed. The only reason I want better graphics is for better gore!

I like my games as violent as possible. It just makes everything so much more entertaining. e.g. wouldn't Tiger Woods golf be better if you could start a fight and beat someone to death with your golf club if you were losing? Well... I think it would.

[QUOTE="jeffcenate"]

i agree with those that say no limit in context. furthermore being American i live in a sanitized 'reality' in most of my every day media so its a nice change up NOT having my nanny government regulating what i can do in my off time.

i think that its not a bad idea to let people see 'real' violence. more importiant perhaps to be the one responcable for that 'violence'. and maybe think that there are people in this world who will do stuff like what we see in our GAMES, for real. and those same people wouldnt know an X Box from a letter box and when THEY pull the trigger those brains that spray arent just some pixles on a screen but a real living breathing person thats dead.

to those that take exception to some of the more violent game content think about this, people have been doing stuff like that to each other since Adam and Eve got booted from the garden. GTA or GoW didnt invent that kind of violence they just put it into game form. the reason its 'shocking' isnt so much the acts themselves, but rather the fact that most of us are insulated from those kinds of acts and have no experiance with them. but there are still vast tracts of this planet where the 'violence' we see in games is a joke compaired to whats REALLY going on.

ive yet to see anything in a game that can compair to all the ways in real life we have found to commit violence on our fellow man each and every single day. not even close.

bob9999999999

Just because Hitler killed Jews in real life doesn't mean we should have that in video games. I like how horrific examples of the worst behavior in human history by the most twisted phsychopaths to ever walk the planet are okay in a game according to your logic because they happened in real life. I'm sorry that I'm so "insulated" but its a little annoying to think that because some people live in war-ravaged countries you think that violence is a joke.

well said bob, I agree, these people's logic makes no sense.

Ahh...this is a question for kids that think games rated 7+ are scary...nvm

Maybe u should topic How much violence in GAMES is to much......

Well violence in games is just fantasy and i don't give a damn.....it's not real so beat it.......

Some Jerks rate some game with M or 18+.....STUPID people because.........looOOOOOOOOOOk in NEWS in TV and u can see that a kid just killed his mother or some guy killed the whole building.......and ALLL THE KIDS SEE THAT..............NO rating on TV for news.........and they blame a game with M or ....etc.......Yeah peple this is like that

In news u see many crimes....violent ONES......and it's for real there not a game.........so Fk them........the news that every sh*%T likes.......and it's not for adults no rating....so u can see how that guy suicide himself so u can too LOL.........

Games should be for everyone.......not rated with bulls%#t

And news should never been made........i don;t care

People that say nothing is too violent are probably lieing or are just ignorent children incapable of understanding what death really means. I'm sorry, but with how much technology will progress in the future (point where reality/gaming won't differ much). I doubt you'd play a game where you kidnap children from school and cut them up with different tools (I feel bad just typing it).Swiftstrike5

oh come on, different people have different levels of squeamishness. and some people have the ability to see games completely as they are - not real life. an actor played a german soldier in schindler's list, and he 'shot' a kid as he was running away. you think he felt bad about that? he understood, probably, that it's not a real gun that he's aiming at the kid, and that the kid is not dead as a result of him 'shooting'. just cuz you can't stomach it doesn't mean others can't. and not everyone believes that a child's life is anymore precious than that of an adult. a child dying, for me, is no more tragic than an adult dying. i'd play a game in which the objective is to kidnap children and kill them, as long as the game is a good game. in fact, in baldur's gate 2, i played as a bad guy and killed everyone in a town, including the 'little boy' in front of the tent looking for 'his' mother. and i killed 'him' good too. i scorched 'him' with a fireball blast. go cry a river for 'him', why don't you?

[QUOTE="bob9999999999"][QUOTE="jeffcenate"]

i agree with those that say no limit in context. furthermore being American i live in a sanitized 'reality' in most of my every day media so its a nice change up NOT having my nanny government regulating what i can do in my off time.

i think that its not a bad idea to let people see 'real' violence. more importiant perhaps to be the one responcable for that 'violence'. and maybe think that there are people in this world who will do stuff like what we see in our GAMES, for real. and those same people wouldnt know an X Box from a letter box and when THEY pull the trigger those brains that spray arent just some pixles on a screen but a real living breathing person thats dead.

to those that take exception to some of the more violent game content think about this, people have been doing stuff like that to each other since Adam and Eve got booted from the garden. GTA or GoW didnt invent that kind of violence they just put it into game form. the reason its 'shocking' isnt so much the acts themselves, but rather the fact that most of us are insulated from those kinds of acts and have no experiance with them. but there are still vast tracts of this planet where the 'violence' we see in games is a joke compaired to whats REALLY going on.

ive yet to see anything in a game that can compair to all the ways in real life we have found to commit violence on our fellow man each and every single day. not even close.

dbrinto

Just because Hitler killed Jews in real life doesn't mean we should have that in video games. I like how horrific examples of the worst behavior in human history by the most twisted phsychopaths to ever walk the planet are okay in a game according to your logic because they happened in real life. I'm sorry that I'm so "insulated" but its a little annoying to think that because some people live in war-ravaged countries you think that violence is a joke.

well said bob, I agree, these people's logic makes no sense.

violence in a game is not the same as violence in real life. it's COMPLETELY two different things. if a game had the gamer playing hitler and the gamer was given the choice to kill 6 million jews, some gamers will choose to follow hitler's path and some will not. that does not mean that those gamers are like hitler and it doesn't mean that they're violent either. and it doesn't mean that they think violence is a joke, because they haven't actually committed a violent act. some video games offer lot of choices, and those choices include 'killing' innocent 'people' and in a way far more 'horrific' than usually committed in real life, even compared to some of the most violent crimes committed. in the sims, there are people who intentionally starve their sims to see how they will 'die'; some torture them by enclosing them in a tight space until they die from hunger or whatever else; some place them in the swimming pool and get rid of the ladder once they're in, giving them no option but to swim until they drown; some like to set them on fire. these are very 'violent' choices, but, in the end, the violence happens in a game, meaning it's not actually happening, meaning that it's not actually violence. i think that people who don't understand this are quite illogical. games already provide choices to gamers to do some of the most violent acts, even if they don't have scenarios that include those found in real life, like the hitler example you gave. it doesn't mean that the game developers or the gamers that play these games are evil; they're just games, and violence in a game isn't really violence. learn to distinguish games from real life, people!

you clearly missed my point by a long way. no ammount of video game 'violence' will ever compair to what gos on in real life every day. you want to climb up on some kind of anti violence crusade band waggon then id suggest you not stop at games 'violence' and perhaps take up the issue with real world violence where real people actualy die.

my real point is that im a big believer in as much realism as possable in any media that depicts violence. if your gunna present a topic, then make it real as you can, i say. how many people grew up watching westerns and thinking that someone getting shot with a lever action 30-30 just slumped in their sadle . you never seen John Wayne shoot someone and have their head explode. THAT is what i mean by insulated. on the other hand you take a movie like saving private ryan ive had friends of mine, big ol bad a$$es that brag about how many hookers they beat in GTA:SAturn green when the guy picks up his arm on the beach and wanders off looking for a medic and literaly turn away from the whole opening sceens because it was too violent.

if they heard that hookers screaming for help and mercy, if they smelled her as she pissed herself, if they felt the blood or heard her bones crack then perhaps games like GTA wouldnt be as popular as they are. you wanna 'cure' violence in video games , make it MORE real not white wash it like every thing else in our American culture. untill that happenes your not experience violence your taking part in a nationel joke.

There is absolutely no reason for games like Manhunt 2 or movies like Hostel Pt2, just totaly waste of time and such a bad influence..Devvy01

of course there's a reason - people enjoy violence, we're a very violent species... bloodsports used to be supremely popular, you think making them illegal changed anything? -we're still the same species, with the same lusts and urges,take a load of convicts and put them in a real life unreal tournament situation and it would probably be the most popular thing on tv

personally, i utterly abhor real violence, i'm a pacifist and a vegetarian, but when it comes to purely fictional violence, stuff that i know is not real, i utterly love it

as do many other people - so yeah, they do serve a purpose, especially for people who want to sate their bloodlust without actually resorting to realistic violence, which, all round, is a good thing for people to be able to do

and for people saying technology will advance to a point where the distinction between reality and games will blur, are you talking lifelike visuals, or somekind of holography? because re realistic visuals, films are already pretty much there, and people can enjoy watching people getting mutilated, eaten and all other kinds of stuff in extremely realistic detail, and enjoy it because they know clearly it is not real

i see no reason to make the same distinction with games, in fact, i see a need to make the same distinction with games, and anyone who can't should not be allowed near them, no matter how violent the content

Honestly, I love playing FPS games, and I love the rag doll physics that have been implemented for the last few years and I love seeing the blood spurts on the wall as I shoot my enemy next to a wall and all that good stuff. Maybe I'm morbid, but my perogative right? But how much is too much?

I for one would love to never see a child used as an enemy or a target in a FPS, at least they haven't done that yet. But how far is too far for you?

serieus

I was trying to point out that people won't want to play a game with too much violence (and you seemed to miss it by about 100000m, killing people in oblivion is much different then a game focused on murdering children with tools of torture.)... they could play it and stomach it (since you seem to be trying to be a mocho), but why would they want to play it?

I didn't realize that torturing people was too your liking.

i'd play a game in which the objective is to kidnap children and kill them

fireandcloud

Ahh...this is a question for kids that think games rated 7+ are scary...nvm

Maybe u should topic How much violence in GAMES is to much......

Well violence in games is just fantasy and i don't give a damn.....it's not real so beat it.......

Some Jerks rate some game with M or 18+.....STUPID people because.........looOOOOOOOOOOk in NEWS in TV and u can see that a kid just killed his mother or some guy killed the whole building.......and ALLL THE KIDS SEE THAT..............NO rating on TV for news.........and they blame a game with M or ....etc.......Yeah peple this is like that

In news u see many crimes....violent ONES......and it's for real there not a game.........so Fk them........the news that every sh*%T likes.......and it's not for adults no rating....so u can see how that guy suicide himself so u can too LOL.........

Games should be for everyone.......not rated with bulls%#t

And news should never been made........i don;t care

xsqmko

I agree that we TALK about a lot of violence in our news, but we never show horrible crimes, we just show the body laying on the ground, if that, most of the time you see nothing and just hear about it. If you go to a foreign country other than the US then you might see nudity and actual explosions, and actual people carrying dead bodies around. There are many limitations to news in the US, you ever see an IED (....... explosive device) kill an American soldier? That's cause they don't want you to see what our soldiers are being put through, but look it up on the youtube and you can find some.

Also, in the news like I said you don't see the actual violence, in video games you commit the violence yourself. Very different. And no one here was complaining originally about the politics of video games, this is a question to gamers about how much is too much for them. Overall everyone has a choice to buy or not buy the game. If manhunt 2 is so bad and no one bought the SH!T then they would never again make a game like that, but obviously someone out there loves it or else it wouldn't be a big deal. Life is full of choices, don't get so upset.

[QUOTE="D9-THC"]Fictional violence != real violence.Deus_Ex_Fan

For now, but in 20 years, that may not be so.

Performing a programmed procedure that resembles real life violence will never hurt ANYONE.

I was trying to point out that people won't want to play a game with too much violence (and you seemed to miss it by about 100000m, killing people in oblivion is much different then a game focused on murdering children with tools of torture.)... they could play it and stomach it (since you seem to be trying to be a mocho), but why would they want to play it?

I didn't realize that torturing people was too your liking.

[QUOTE="fireandcloud"]

i'd play a game in which the objective is to kidnap children and kill them

Swiftstrike5

i have a feeling i'm writing to a teenager or a college kid. it's not that i'm trying to be macho; it's just the reality of things: some people aren't bothered by violence in games. and if you were making an honest attempt at an argument, you would have quoted me fully. i wrote that i'd play a violent game if it's good, meaning that the criteria is not level of violence but level of gameplay. and to be honest, even when given the opportunity in a game to be uber-violent, i usually choose not to. but i can stomach it; not because i'm macho, but because i'm a realist and feel absolutely no sympathy towards fake children. now it's great that you feel sympathy towards fake children; it makes the immersion process that much more easier for you than it does for me. but for me, the prospect of 'torturing' fake children doesn't disturb me, cuz they're not real children. torturing real children - now that i wouldn't do and find disturbing (though no more disturbing than torturing adults). see the difference?

[QUOTE="xsqmko"]

Ahh...this is a question for kids that think games rated 7+ are scary...nvm

Maybe u should topic How much violence in GAMES is to much......

Well violence in games is just fantasy and i don't give a damn.....it's not real so beat it.......

Some Jerks rate some game with M or 18+.....STUPID people because.........looOOOOOOOOOOk in NEWS in TV and u can see that a kid just killed his mother or some guy killed the whole building.......and ALLL THE KIDS SEE THAT..............NO rating on TV for news.........and they blame a game with M or ....etc.......Yeah peple this is like that

In news u see many crimes....violent ONES......and it's for real there not a game.........so Fk them........the news that every sh*%T likes.......and it's not for adults no rating....so u can see how that guy suicide himself so u can too LOL.........

Games should be for everyone.......not rated with bulls%#t

And news should never been made........i don;t care

serieus

I agree that we TALK about a lot of violence in our news, but we never show horrible crimes, we just show the body laying on the ground, if that, most of the time you see nothing and just hear about it. If you go to a foreign country other than the US then you might see nudity and actual explosions, and actual people carrying dead bodies around. There are many limitations to news in the US, you ever see an IED (....... explosive device) kill an American soldier? That's cause they don't want you to see what our soldiers are being put through, but look it up on the youtube and you can find some.

Also, in the news like I said you don't see the actual violence, in video games you commit the violence yourself. Very different. And no one here was complaining originally about the politics of video games, this is a question to gamers about how much is too much for them. Overall everyone has a choice to buy or not buy the game. If manhunt 2 is so bad and no one bought the SH!T then they would never again make a game like that, but obviously someone out there loves it or else it wouldn't be a big deal. Life is full of choices, don't get so upset.

Just don't quote again...people have their own opinion that doesn't need to be fixed........i didn't say about ur US....i sayd about news ffs.......

And who the F$%k is upset?

I just posted something that i think it's not fair.......

U comit the violence in games but in a virtual way...helooo??
U sayd like....im gonna go in real life and killl all the street because i play a game for fun and killl there too...

It's cool that many war's are coming to US....haha

Better live in europe not in US lol........

People deserve to die there lol.........nvm.......Limits or not in US u all die like hell there because of ur war DUDE!!

Im out.....