Is downloading abandonware considered piracy?

Abandonware is not a legally recognized term, and is considered by the law as piracy. But only by the letter of the law. There is no arguable moral issue to it, and I personally see nothing wrong with it.

There is no arguable moral issue to it, and I personally see nothing wrong with it.

There's no arguable moral issue to software piracy? No matter what invented term you apply to it, it's still piracy whether someone holds the rights to that piece of software. And just because they're not currently selling it doesn't mean they "abandoned" it, thereby giving gamers free reign over their copyrighted works.

If morality is a concern, then contact the copyright holder and ask for his/her permission to download their game free of charge.

Something like Wolfenstein 3D is probably fair game, as it's not sold ANYWHERE

http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=app&AppId=2270

Wolf 3D is not abandonware. I don't even know how you can consider it abandonware. The makers of Wolf 3D, Id are still around and obviously own the rights to Wolf 3D.

Anyway the TC said he downloaded a demo. When was downloading a demo illegal?

IMO there's nothing wrong with downloading abandonware. If no nobody no longer owns the rights to the intellectual property who is going to sue or take you to court? The publisher? The developer? Remember they no longer own the rights to the IP and thus have no control over it.

But you have to be careful. Just because a developer is no longer around doesn't mean the IP is instant abandonware. The publisher might have brought the rights or even some random person.

There is no arguable moral issue to it, and I personally see nothing wrong with it.

There's no arguable moral issue to software piracy? No matter what invented term you apply to it, it's still piracy whether someone holds the rights to that piece of software. And just because they're not currently selling it doesn't mean they "abandoned" it, thereby giving gamers free reign over their copyrighted works.

mysterylobster

The whole reason pirating a game is wrong is because you're getting it for free when you could be giving money to the devs for their work by buying it through retail or digital distribution. That's it, that's the only thing that makes it wrong. Therefore, under the spirit of the law, abandonware is not piracy. Only the letter of the law sees it as such.

You're implying it's wrong also because the rights are still legally owned (and not always by the developers, I might add). That sounds like you're saying the letter of the law has some moral value, which it does not.

Forgetting that, what do you propose, then? Don't play the game, is that it? Just forget that a good game exists because there's no way to give your money to the devs anymore? You say that it's wrong because one is violating the rights-holders legal rights, but their legal rights are in place to ensure they are given money for the products they put work into. So if there is no way to give your money to a developer for a game anymore, why should one continue to hold to this as a moral principle for that game? There is no reason to. Your options are to either not play the game or download an abandonware copy. Under this circumstance, if you ask me, it is more of an insult to the devs to not play their game and experience what they worked on (as that is the second most important payoff for a [good] developer after receiving funds).

Wolf 3D is not abandonware. I don't even know how you can consider it abandonware. The makers of Wolf 3D, Id are still around and obviously own the rights to Wolf 3D.

KhanhAgE

Whether or not the rights are owned is not the only factor in determining whether something is abandonware or not. If the game is no longer sold through retail or digital distribution (thus, no money can be given to the devs for their product), then that alone also makes a game abandonware.

Wolfenstein 3D, however, obviously doesn't fall into this mold because it can be bought from Steam. But there are many older games which can no longer be bought through a source where the money goes to the developers, yet whose rights are still legally owned by them. Those games are still abandonware.

I know they sell wolf 3d, like another world,x-com 2 + 3, spear of destiny and many others,

i'm talking about the ones that can't be digitally purchased.And I don't have the full version of wolf 3d, I have the DEMO

It's is perfectly morally accepted, most abandonware is software whose developers and/or publishers are already out of business, and if you can get that crappy dosbox working you deserve to play the games.

"Forgetting that, what do you propose, then? Don't play the game, is that it?"

Oh no, you can play the game. Just don't claim that it's any less immoral than stealing any game. In almost all cases, "abandonware" is completely meaningless.

"Forgetting that, what do you propose, then? Don't play the game, is that it?"

Oh no, you can play the game. Just don't claim that it's any less immoral than stealing any game. In almost all cases, "abandonware" is completely meaningless.

mysterylobster

I don't get it. Why? Why do you insist that abandonware is no less wrong than piracy? You're not explaining. And if you feel it's wrong, why do you think it's okay to play the abandonware game anyway? That part definitely doesn't match up, and you need to explain. Or are you actually implying that it is no less immoral because it isn't immoral at all to pirate a game either, in which case, you definitely need to explain how you rationalize such a thing.

You're not being clear where you stand on this and why, and it's making the reason for you criticizing my stance totally ambiguous.

[QUOTE="mysterylobster"]

"Forgetting that, what do you propose, then? Don't play the game, is that it?"

Oh no, you can play the game. Just don't claim that it's any less immoral than stealing any game. In almost all cases, "abandonware" is completely meaningless.

JP_Russell

I don't get it. Why? Why do you insist that abandonware is no less wrong than piracy?

I thought I made it very clear that downloading so-called "abandonware" and piracy are one and the same. Nothing that makes piracy morally wrong (for example, the fact that it violates the right of the copyright holder to do with their intellectual property as they see fit) is any different with abandonware. Unless, of course, the copyright has truly been abandoned and placed in the public domain, as is rarely the case. Therefore it's just as morally corrupt.

And if you feel it's wrong, why do you think it's okay to play the abandonware game anyway?

I never said it's okay to play the game, I just meant there's nothing stopping you, even if it's morally wrong. As I said, it's the lame moral justifications people make for stealing copyrighted works that I have a problem with.

Why do people presume to tell others what is morally right or wrong? Morals are completely relative to the person, so determine on your own if you have a problem with it.

Downloading abandonware is piracy. It's up to you to determine if you have a problem with downloading it, because the BSA is likely not going to come after you for downloading Monkey Island Madness or Discworld.

Morally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with download a game that is no longer sold.

And since that moral applies to me then it is logically acceptable to think it is your moral too.

In other words, why do you ask these questions?

Nothing that makes piracy morally wrong (for example, the fact that it violates the right of the copyright holder to do with their intellectual property as they see fit) is any different with abandonware.

mysterylobster

I'm going to ignore the fact that you're displaying what I consider a confused sense of morality, here, no offense... It's apparent, given that you haven't even addressed my counter-arguments which conflict with every point you've made in this post, that you are not even paying attention to what I'm saying, so I'm not going to explain yet again what I think is wrong with this.

I'll end with this scenario. There is an old game you want. Its rights are still owned by the original, still-existing development company. But this game is no longer sold through retail, nor even through digital distribution (presumably, because the developer is being a ****ing idiot). What do you do?

Downloading a game is illegal unless you A pay for it beforehand or B the developer or Publisher offers it for free.

Morally? Its wrong, plain and simple.

How would you feel if I came to your house and took your PC or Car without paying you? Because I deemed it acceptable?

OH but its not the same you say? It sure is. Your taking somebody elses property by pirating media.

Nobody collects money for it anymore.Wasdie

How do you know? Have you ever asked the developer or publisher?

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]Nobody collects money for it anymore.superkoolstud

How do you know? Have you ever asked the developer or publisher?

Well considering the game has been out of stores and not in production for a good 10+ years, the only copies left are used copies, I would just say its safe to say nobody is making money off of the actual copies of the game. Now the franchises are a different story.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]Nobody collects money for it anymore.superkoolstud

How do you know? Have you ever asked the developer or publisher?

Think. The only thing they get money from is copies sold through retail and/or digital distribution. When a game is eventually distributed by neither, they (obviously) don't make money whether people download the game as abandonware or not.

[QUOTE="superkoolstud"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]Nobody collects money for it anymore.JP_Russell

How do you know? Have you ever asked the developer or publisher?

Think. The only thing they get money from is copies sold through retail and/or digital distribution. When a game is eventually distributed by neither, they (obviously) don't make money whether people download the game as abandonware or not.

I never bought the tired "it's not sold any more, so it's okay to steal it" excuse. Many times, people don't bother to look before saying it's unavailable, like the person in this thread who insisted that Wolfenstein isn't sold, despite it being on Steam for $5. But more than that, it's up to the copyright holder to decide how they're going to distribute the game. Maybe some owners of "abandoned" software are waiting for an appropriate content delivery system, like the upcoming Good Old Games. Or maybe they want to wait and release their property for free some time in the future to bring attention to a new release (like Sierra, EA and many others have done). There's still value in old properties, even if it's not available in stores. And for that reason, it's not a valid excuse for stealing.

They make money from more then just "copies sold". They own the IP and make money off of that.superkoolstud

No, no they don't. You don't make money simply from owning something. I have no idea how you rationalize that.

If somebody reported you to id, im sure they would take legal action against you.superkoolstud

No, they wouldn't, because there's nothing to report. I buy every id game that is sold, because they're still in business and the money goes to them, as it should. Furthermore, they would not take action against someone for downloading an abandonware game; what they do is contact the ESA and have them order an abandonware site to take down the download for their game.

I never bought the tired "it's not sold any more, so it's okay to steal it" excuse.

mysterylobster

Only problem is, when it comes to software, I don't consider it stealing unless you're cheating the rights holder out of giving them your money for the game instead. It hurts their business, and that's what makes it immoral to me, not the violation of some piddly, letter-of-the-law rights. If they'll just sell the damn thing, I'll buy it. If they choose for some dumb reason to use their "legal right" to never do anything with it at all and attempt to keep it from being acquired by any means, then they're effectively slapping me in the face and saying "**** you" to me as a potential customer and fan. Okay, **** them too, then.

Many times, people don't bother to look before saying it's unavailable

mysterlobster

Well, I do, because I'm very serious about giving devs money for their work if they'll give me the chance to.

Maybe some owners of "abandoned" software are waiting for an appropriate content delivery system, like the upcoming Good Old Games.

mysterylobster

While I do know about that, and I look forward to it becoming a reality, I've yet to see truly old games being advertised by them. It appears as though they're going to be selling only Win95+ games, and no DOS ones. Maybe not, but I have a hunch that's what they're going to do (and if it is, I'm severely disappointed). And anyway, if I personally had downloaded an abandonware game which I liked that then became available for purchase, I would buy the game to give them money for their work as they should have let me by continuing to sell it from the start.

In any case, as you say, maybe they want to put it on there, or maybe they want to sell it by some means in the future. But maybe not. Maybe they just don't care one way or another what happens with their incredibly old and often much forgotten games (as I guarantee is very often the case). In these cases, there is no hope that the game will ever be distributed legally by any means. So if that happens, what, you just pass the game up? Hah! Screw that. Which, by the way, you never answered my question in my last responding post to you. What do you do?

Or maybe they want to wait and release their property for free some time in the future to bring attention to a new release (like Sierra, EA and many others have done).

mysterylobster

Maybe they do, in which case, it doesn't hurt them financially if someone gets it for free as abandonware before then. And then again, as I've been pointing out, maybe they don't. And if they don't ever re-release it in any form, and you never get it as abandonware, you never get the game. I'm a gamer. I don't not play games I want to play. Ever.

There's still value in old properties, even if it's not available in stores. And for that reason, it's not a valid excuse for stealing.

mysterlobster

And when the rights holder decides to put that value to use and put it up for sale somewhere, I'll buy the game. I'm not going to risk never playing a game I want to play because some jerkwad rights holder doesn't care about people who want to experience what he worked on and are fully willing to pay tribute to him for his work.