Next console generation hardware speculation

I know this is about consoles however it's mainly about the hardware so i decided to post in here, just in case the admin thought it would be fun to lock my thread if i posted it in the general discusion area :P

Anyway, heres avideo. It's made by 3kliksphilip he's a pretty famous map maker in gaming, has a TON of map making tutorials in source. I even used hi's videos myself to learn maping in Source SDK hammer editor.

He makes some pretty intreasting points and i really gotta agree with him on the RAM part, main issues current gen consoles are having is because of the lack of RAM. Must've been a pain to make games like Battlefield 3 and Crysis 2 run on 500 MB of RAM only.

So, what are you thoughts on this ? What kind of hardware do you think MS and Sony will use next generation to power their machines ?

Probably similar to trinity APUs.

I agree with Kraken regarding the APUs. I guess launch SKUs will be APU + Discrete GPU, later revisions may be one APU (similar to what happened with the slim 360).

I think in terms of power, they'd want the power necessary to run games at a resolution of 1920x1080, with DirectX 11 visual features, between 30-60 FPS.

If Wii U has 2gb ram, 1gb for OS and 1gb for games - assuming MS/Sony go for an OS with a similar footprint, just 3GB of total RAM would give devs double the memory for games compared to Wii U. I reckon 4GB of ram would be a massive amount for an eighth gen console.

A10 AMD CPU, APU's plus a lower end dedicated GPU will be the normal. 2 gb ram, 120 gb minimum hard drives, blue ray.. Can't wait for the ps4.. I'm currently a very unhappy 360 owner.

modified A10

A10 AMD CPU, APU's plus a lower end dedicated GPU will be the normal. 2 gb ram, 120 gb minimum hard drives, blue ray.. Can't wait for the ps4.. I'm currently a very unhappy 360 owner.

Bishop1310

Since the discussion is about hardware, are you dissapointed by your 360's hardware specifications or because of the games or something, because if you're talking hardware, I'm confused. Don't the PS3 and 360 perform almost identically?

He's right about gtx 680 being the base level for the consoles.

He's right about gtx 680 being the base level for the consoles.

slipknot0129

[QUOTE="slipknot0129"]

He's right about gtx 680 being the base level for the consoles.

godzillavskong

That wont happen, we will not see more then 100w TDP based gpu in the next console generation, because of costs (economy,power,heat/cooling). A 7970 or GTX 680 type of gpu use more then 200w, and requires hefty cooling and decent power.While the next PS4 is suppose to be based on A10 AMD APU which means there is a space, and power limitation set in place. Now for the next xbox, the design has already been finalized and is ready for mass production. Latest reports have said MS is having issues with yeilds.

All these reports and believable rumors point the next set of console to be no more then comparable to mid ranged Pc's from 2011.

He's right about gtx 680 being the base level for the consoles.

slipknot0129

not even close bruh

which is a shame

[QUOTE="godzillavskong"][QUOTE="slipknot0129"]

He's right about gtx 680 being the base level for the consoles.

04dcarraher

That wont happen, we will not see more then 100w TDP based gpu in the next console generation, because of costs (economy,power,heat/cooling). A 7970 or GTX 680 type of gpu use more then 200w, and requires hefty cooling and decent power.While the next PS4 is suppose to be based on A10 AMD APU which means there is a space, and power limitation set in place. Now for the next xbox, the design has already been finalized and is ready for mass production. Latest reports have said MS is having issues with yeilds.

All these reports and believable rumors point the next set of console to be no more then comparable to mid ranged Pc's from 2011.

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

[QUOTE="godzillavskong"] That would be nice! I don't think they'll need to take a big leap, but a 680 would be very nice, not to mention what the developers could pull off after a few years of working with the archeticture.slipknot0129

That wont happen, we will not see more then 100w TDP based gpu in the next console generation, because of costs (economy,power,heat/cooling). A 7970 or GTX 680 type of gpu use more then 200w, and requires hefty cooling and decent power.While the next PS4 is suppose to be based on A10 AMD APU which means there is a space, and power limitation set in place. Now for the next xbox, the design has already been finalized and is ready for mass production. Latest reports have said MS is having issues with yeilds.

All these reports and believable rumors point the next set of console to be no more then comparable to mid ranged Pc's from 2011.

I don't see why the 680 is that unreasonable. When the 360 came out, it was pretty much better than any pc you could buy at the time. Just base it on the midrange product of the next architecture.JigglyWiggly_

Costs are the main issue, requirements, for cooling and powering the component like a GTX 680 is too expensive to keep the reliability in good standing .

Also there's a very good chance they will use 128bit buses again because of the cost difference.

gtx 680 = 200w+ TDP

xbox 360 "Xenos" =~100w TDP

MS and Sony arent going to repeat their mistakes like this generation, using expensive,high end,poor quality,designing with parts that lead to billions in loses. they will be aimig for low cost low tdp based systems that please the masses while breaking even or making profit from the start not four years after the fact.

When the 360 came out, it was pretty much better than any pc you could buy at the time.JigglyWiggly_

[QUOTE="JigglyWiggly_"]I don't see why the 680 is that unreasonable. When the 360 came out, it was pretty much better than any pc you could buy at the time. Just base it on the midrange product of the next architecture.04dcarraher

Costs are the main issue, requirements, for cooling and powering the component like a GTX 680 is too expensive to keep the reliability in good standing .

Also there's a very good chance they will use 128bit buses again because of the cost difference.

gtx 680 = 200w+ TDP

xbox 360 "Xenos" =~100w TDP

MS and Sony arent going to repeat their mistakes like this generation, using expensive,high end,poor quality,designing with parts that lead to billions in loses. they will be aimig for low cost low tdp based systems that please the masses while breaking even or making profit from the start not four years after the fact.

Will next gen consoles use quad cores?If they use more will that mean I will have a quad core cpu?

the wii kinda messed things up for everyone. Now MS and Sony know that they can get away with making hardware of medium tier and get away with slight or no losses at release.

Will next gen consoles use quad cores?If they use more will that mean I will have a quad core cpu?

free_milk

[QUOTE="free_milk"]

Will next gen consoles use quad cores?If they use more will that mean I will have a quad core cpu?

horgen123

Yes the next gen console will have at least quad core based cpu's.

All they had to do was use higher quality solder.JigglyWiggly_

[QUOTE="horgen123"][QUOTE="free_milk"]

Will next gen consoles use quad cores?If they use more will that mean I will have a quad core cpu?

04dcarraher

Yes the next gen console will have at least quad core based cpu's.

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

[QUOTE="horgen123"] I really hope so. X360 uses three cores, doesn't it? free_milk

Yes the next gen console will have at least quad core based cpu's.

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

[QUOTE="horgen123"] I really hope so. X360 uses three cores, doesn't it? free_milk

Yes the next gen console will have at least quad core based cpu's.

A 5800k even

[QUOTE="JigglyWiggly_"]All they had to do was use higher quality solder.04dcarraher

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"][QUOTE="JigglyWiggly_"]All they had to do was use higher quality solder.JigglyWiggly_

Not all RRoD's are just broken solder, :roll:

Quick/early RRoD's are from poor heatsink contact and or the solder melting/breaking from the heat produced. If the 360 had better cooling solution most solder based RRoD's could hase been prevented for a longer period of time.

Bottom line will come down tocost and TDP limitations.

In order to match a current high end PC you're looking at at a 500+ watt TDP. That's NEVER going to happen on a console form factor. You can't cool those types of components efficiently in there, and how are you going to power that? You'd need a power birck the size of.. wlel the size of an ATX power supply, complete with large cooling fan.

And do you really think Sony and MS are going to take a 50% hit on a $300 console for the next 2 years?

I expect a top of the line quad core APU paired with a low-mid range (or the equivalent of a mobile (laptop) mid-range GPU). I expect DX 11 + 720p + 30 FPS but a serious bump in imgae quality. Much larger worlds, much more detailed 3D meshes, better textures, tripple buffered Vsync + better FXAA.

In other word,s all the creature comforts we PC gamers are used to + some higher quality lighting and shadowing but minus the higher resolution fo the PC.

Mark my words. The most impressive game son console will be runnign at 720p. They realize console gamers don't care about 1080p, and per-pixel effects suffer huge drops in performance at higher resolutions.

PC will still be the place to get multi-plats.

[QUOTE="JigglyWiggly_"][QUOTE="04dcarraher"] It wasnt just the solder, the cooling in the 360 was so inefficient for the heat produced that it resulted actual fried processors and gpu's(more so with gpu's) along with warped pcb board on the main board underneath the chips. When you have scorched marks on the bottom of the dvd drives that sat above the gpu tells you that the solder was not the only issue. 04dcarraher

Not all RRoD's are just broken solder, :roll:

Quick/early RRoD's are from poor heatsink contact and or the solder melting/breaking from the heat produced. If the 360 had better cooling solution most solder based RRoD's could hase been prevented for a longer period of time.

No they wouldn't.
The RROD is not a heat issue.

The heatsink contact was fine, and 360s didn't run that hot.
it was from uneven pressure from the x clamp + the lead free solder they used started to crack very easily.

Which is why if you "bake" a 360 with a towel, it fixes the issues temporarily.

The cooling was fine, it was just very noisy. (Also if their lead free solder started to warp under normal operating temperatures, then that's a clear problem of the solder. Lead-free solder typically starts to melt at 183c...)

For the zephyr 360 elites, they came with an additional heatsink and the others were even bigger. This didn't change the failure rates.

PS I am always right, so if you want to save yo self some time.

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

[QUOTE="JigglyWiggly_"] The xbox 360 would 2 rrod before it overheated. It was all the solder. I tested this, I just baked a broken 360. It worked. Came back 1-2 months later, rrod again (it wasn't even powered on) uneven clamp design + bad solder =disaster My original xbox 360 finally died this year =/ Luckily I have an xbox 360 elite that still works, that I just decided to x clamp before anything went wrong with it. Working great. Of course I can't go online with it ;pJigglyWiggly_

Not all RRoD's are just broken solder, :roll:

Quick/early RRoD's are from poor heatsink contact and or the solder melting/breaking from the heat produced. If the 360 had better cooling solution most solder based RRoD's could hase been prevented for a longer period of time.

No they wouldn't.
The RROD is not a heat issue.

The heatsink contact was fine, and 360s didn't run that hot.
it was from uneven pressure from the x clamp + the lead free solder they used started to crack very easily.

Which is why if you "bake" a 360 with a towel, it fixes the issues temporarily.

The cooling was fine, it was just very noisy. (Also if their lead free solder started to warp under normal operating temperatures, then that's a clear problem of the solder. Lead-free solder typically starts to melt at 183c...)

For the zephyr 360 elites, they came with an additional heatsink and the others were even bigger. This didn't change the failure rates.

PS I am always right, so if you want to save yo self some time.

[QUOTE="JigglyWiggly_"]

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

Not all RRoD's are just broken solder, :roll:

Quick/early RRoD's are from poor heatsink contact and or the solder melting/breaking from the heat produced. If the 360 had better cooling solution most solder based RRoD's could hase been prevented for a longer period of time.

04dcarraher

No they wouldn't.
The RROD is not a heat issue.

The heatsink contact was fine, and 360s didn't run that hot.
it was from uneven pressure from the x clamp + the lead free solder they used started to crack very easily.

Which is why if you "bake" a 360 with a towel, it fixes the issues temporarily.

The cooling was fine, it was just very noisy. (Also if their lead free solder started to warp under normal operating temperatures, then that's a clear problem of the solder. Lead-free solder typically starts to melt at 183c...)

For the zephyr 360 elites, they came with an additional heatsink and the others were even bigger. This didn't change the failure rates.

PS I am always right, so if you want to save yo self some time.

lol this guy

"I will use big words" that aren't big words at all like "pcb warping and TDP"

The PCB warping was from uneven pressure. Of course normal operating temperatures of heat will cause it to warp.

The 360 didn't run that hot.

Yes the 360 did run hot why do you think they added an airduct? then added a heatpipe along with another heatsink. When they were trying to fix the cause RROD rates....

Yes the 360 did run hot why do you think they added an airduct? then added a heatpipe along with another heatsink. When they were trying to fix the cause RROD rates....

04dcarraher

Bottom line will come down tocost and TDP limitations.

In order to match a current high end PC you're looking at at a 500+ watt TDP. That's NEVER going to happen on a console form factor. You can't cool those types of components efficiently in there, and how are you going to power that? You'd need a power birck the size of.. wlel the size of an ATX power supply, complete with large cooling fan.

And do you really think Sony and MS are going to take a 50% hit on a $300 console for the next 2 years?

I expect a top of the line quad core APU paired with a low-mid range (or the equivalent of a mobile (laptop) mid-range GPU). I expect DX 11 + 720p + 30 FPS but a serious bump in imgae quality. Much larger worlds, much more detailed 3D meshes, better textures, tripple buffered Vsync + better FXAA.

In other word,s all the creature comforts we PC gamers are used to + some higher quality lighting and shadowing but minus the higher resolution fo the PC.

Mark my words. The most impressive game son console will be runnign at 720p. They realize console gamers don't care about 1080p, and per-pixel effects suffer huge drops in performance at higher resolutions.

PC will still be the place to get multi-plats.

Kinthalis

If you think these games will be running at 720p you are high

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

Bottom line will come down tocost and TDP limitations.

In order to match a current high end PC you're looking at at a 500+ watt TDP. That's NEVER going to happen on a console form factor. You can't cool those types of components efficiently in there, and how are you going to power that? You'd need a power birck the size of.. wlel the size of an ATX power supply, complete with large cooling fan.

And do you really think Sony and MS are going to take a 50% hit on a $300 console for the next 2 years?

I expect a top of the line quad core APU paired with a low-mid range (or the equivalent of a mobile (laptop) mid-range GPU). I expect DX 11 + 720p + 30 FPS but a serious bump in imgae quality. Much larger worlds, much more detailed 3D meshes, better textures, tripple buffered Vsync + better FXAA.

In other word,s all the creature comforts we PC gamers are used to + some higher quality lighting and shadowing but minus the higher resolution fo the PC.

Mark my words. The most impressive game son console will be runnign at 720p. They realize console gamers don't care about 1080p, and per-pixel effects suffer huge drops in performance at higher resolutions.

PC will still be the place to get multi-plats.

GummiRaccoon

If you think these games will be running at 720p you are high

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

Yes the 360 did run hot why do you think they added an airduct? then added a heatpipe along with another heatsink. When they were trying to fix the cause RROD rates....

JigglyWiggly_

Before the the addition of the airduct and extra heatsink the failure rates where above 50% within the first year afterwards it dropped to about 35%. And when the jasper based chip was introduced the failure rate with RRoD dropped below 20%. Also with the slims have auto shutdown feature if it gets too hot.

When you have scorch marks on dvd drives that sat above the gpu heatsink you know the older 360's ran hot. In my household we have had three RRoD's which by then I created an intake cooler with two 80mm fans which solved the main issue with the 360 no direct airflow for fresh air. And never had a RRoD issue again. Lead free solder was not the cause of the RRoD it was the fact that the chips ran hot and didnt have the proper cooling to remove the excess heat prevent the warping and cracking.

[QUOTE="JigglyWiggly_"][QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

Yes the 360 did run hot why do you think they added an airduct? then added a heatpipe along with another heatsink. When they were trying to fix the cause RROD rates....

04dcarraher

Before the the addition of the airduct and extra heatsink the failure rates where above 50% within the first year afterwards it dropped to about 35%. And when the jasper based chip was introduced the failure rate with RRoD dropped below 20%. Also with the slims have auto shutdown feature if it gets too hot. When you have scorch marks on dvd drives that sat above the gpu heatsink you know the older 360's ran hot. In my household we have had three RRoD's which by then I created an intake cooler with two 80mm fans which solved the main issue with the 360 no direct airflow for fresh air. And never had a RRoD issue again. Lead free solder was not the cause of the RRoD it was the fact that the chips ran hot and didnt have the proper cooling to prevent the warping and cracking.

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

Bottom line will come down tocost and TDP limitations.

In order to match a current high end PC you're looking at at a 500+ watt TDP. That's NEVER going to happen on a console form factor. You can't cool those types of components efficiently in there, and how are you going to power that? You'd need a power birck the size of.. wlel the size of an ATX power supply, complete with large cooling fan.

And do you really think Sony and MS are going to take a 50% hit on a $300 console for the next 2 years?

I expect a top of the line quad core APU paired with a low-mid range (or the equivalent of a mobile (laptop) mid-range GPU). I expect DX 11 + 720p + 30 FPS but a serious bump in imgae quality. Much larger worlds, much more detailed 3D meshes, better textures, tripple buffered Vsync + better FXAA.

In other word,s all the creature comforts we PC gamers are used to + some higher quality lighting and shadowing but minus the higher resolution fo the PC.

Mark my words. The most impressive game son console will be runnign at 720p. They realize console gamers don't care about 1080p, and per-pixel effects suffer huge drops in performance at higher resolutions.

PC will still be the place to get multi-plats.

GummiRaccoon

If you think these games will be running at 720p you are high

No, I'm being realistic. Increase in resolution is one of the most resource demanding things you can do to a modern 3D game. There are a ton of per-pixel effects and the increase in resolution will require a ton more processing and memory.

Games will start at 1080p - wlel some games will, but as the gen drags on, the first thing devs will drop in order to try and add more features graphical or otherwise to games will be resolution.

I'm saving this thread so I can bring it up when this invetably happens and I cna go all neener neener on your @ss. Or you can bring it up to show just how wrong I was ;)

I don't think I am wrong though.

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

Bottom line will come down tocost and TDP limitations.

In order to match a current high end PC you're looking at at a 500+ watt TDP. That's NEVER going to happen on a console form factor. You can't cool those types of components efficiently in there, and how are you going to power that? You'd need a power birck the size of.. wlel the size of an ATX power supply, complete with large cooling fan.

And do you really think Sony and MS are going to take a 50% hit on a $300 console for the next 2 years?

I expect a top of the line quad core APU paired with a low-mid range (or the equivalent of a mobile (laptop) mid-range GPU). I expect DX 11 + 720p + 30 FPS but a serious bump in imgae quality. Much larger worlds, much more detailed 3D meshes, better textures, tripple buffered Vsync + better FXAA.

In other word,s all the creature comforts we PC gamers are used to + some higher quality lighting and shadowing but minus the higher resolution fo the PC.

Mark my words. The most impressive game son console will be runnign at 720p. They realize console gamers don't care about 1080p, and per-pixel effects suffer huge drops in performance at higher resolutions.

PC will still be the place to get multi-plats.

JigglyWiggly_

If you think these games will be running at 720p you are high

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

Bottom line will come down tocost and TDP limitations.

In order to match a current high end PC you're looking at at a 500+ watt TDP. That's NEVER going to happen on a console form factor. You can't cool those types of components efficiently in there, and how are you going to power that? You'd need a power birck the size of.. wlel the size of an ATX power supply, complete with large cooling fan.

And do you really think Sony and MS are going to take a 50% hit on a $300 console for the next 2 years?

I expect a top of the line quad core APU paired with a low-mid range (or the equivalent of a mobile (laptop) mid-range GPU). I expect DX 11 + 720p + 30 FPS but a serious bump in imgae quality. Much larger worlds, much more detailed 3D meshes, better textures, tripple buffered Vsync + better FXAA.

In other word,s all the creature comforts we PC gamers are used to + some higher quality lighting and shadowing but minus the higher resolution fo the PC.

Mark my words. The most impressive game son console will be runnign at 720p. They realize console gamers don't care about 1080p, and per-pixel effects suffer huge drops in performance at higher resolutions.

PC will still be the place to get multi-plats.

Kinthalis

If you think these games will be running at 720p you are high

No, I'm being realistic. Increase in resolution is one of the most resource demanding things you can do to a modern 3D game. There are a ton of per-pixel effects and the increase in resolution will require a ton more processing and memory.

Games will start at 1080p - wlel some games will, but as the gen drags on, the first thing devs will drop in order to try and add more features graphical or otherwise to games will be resolution.

I'm saving this thread so I can bring it up when this invetably happens and I cna go all neener neener on your @ss. Or you can bring it up to show just how wrong I was ;)

I don't think I am wrong though.

I don't need to because I already know you're wrong.

One large advantage that consoles have is they program direct to the metal, so something that is super resource intensive that will have a hard time running on a PC, running an OS and all your bloatware going through all the different layers to get to the transistors, will not have as hard of a time on a console without all that middle crap.

When the last gen came out, 1080p was not a common resolution but 720p was, TV wasn't commonly found in HD, Blu-Rays were non-existant.

Now 1080p HDTVs are ubiquitus, everything is HD.

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

If you think these games will be running at 720p you are high

GummiRaccoon

No, I'm being realistic. Increase in resolution is one of the most resource demanding things you can do to a modern 3D game. There are a ton of per-pixel effects and the increase in resolution will require a ton more processing and memory.

Games will start at 1080p - wlel some games will, but as the gen drags on, the first thing devs will drop in order to try and add more features graphical or otherwise to games will be resolution.

I'm saving this thread so I can bring it up when this invetably happens and I cna go all neener neener on your @ss. Or you can bring it up to show just how wrong I was ;)

I don't think I am wrong though.

I don't need to because I already know you're wrong.

One large advantage that consoles have is they program direct to the metal, so something that is super resource intensive that will have a hard time running on a PC, running an OS and all your bloatware going through all the different layers to get to the transistors, will not have as hard of a time on a console without all that middle crap.

When the last gen came out, 1080p was not a common resolution but 720p was, TV wasn't commonly found in HD, Blu-Rays were non-existant.

Now 1080p HDTVs are ubiquitus, everything is HD.

This console generation has shown us the the shift from SD to HD however now near the end of their life cycle many games have went back to below HD standards and barely keep the 30 fps standard to be able push certain graphics and or to have a set frame rate. The next set of consoles will not be that powerful and them only using low to medium ranged gpu's even with "Direct to metal" coding will not be able to bypass the fact that the gpu's aren't able to do full blown tessellation or more advanced shader workloads compared to gpu's that are multiple times faster. These upcoming console will start out with 1080 but will trickle back down to 720 to be able to produce certain graphical effects and or have a set frame rate as time goes on.

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

No, I'm being realistic. Increase in resolution is one of the most resource demanding things you can do to a modern 3D game. There are a ton of per-pixel effects and the increase in resolution will require a ton more processing and memory.

Games will start at 1080p - wlel some games will, but as the gen drags on, the first thing devs will drop in order to try and add more features graphical or otherwise to games will be resolution.

I'm saving this thread so I can bring it up when this invetably happens and I cna go all neener neener on your @ss. Or you can bring it up to show just how wrong I was ;)

I don't think I am wrong though.

04dcarraher

I don't need to because I already know you're wrong.

One large advantage that consoles have is they program direct to the metal, so something that is super resource intensive that will have a hard time running on a PC, running an OS and all your bloatware going through all the different layers to get to the transistors, will not have as hard of a time on a console without all that middle crap.

When the last gen came out, 1080p was not a common resolution but 720p was, TV wasn't commonly found in HD, Blu-Rays were non-existant.

Now 1080p HDTVs are ubiquitus, everything is HD.

This console generation has shown us the the shift from SD to HD however now near the end of their life cycle many games have went back to below HD standards and barely keep the 30 fps standard to be able push certain graphics and or to have a set frame rate. The next set of consoles will not be that powerful and them only using low to medium ranged gpu's even with "Direct to metal" coding will not be able to bypass the fact that the gpu's aren't able to do full blown tessellation or more advanced shader workloads compared to gpu's that are multiple times faster. These upcoming console will start out with 1080 but will trickle back down to 720 to be able to produce certain graphical effects and or have a set frame rate as time goes on.

explain then how carmack is wrong

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/John-Carmack-Interview-GPU-Race-Intel-Graphics-Ray-Tracing-Voxels-and-more/Intervi

"I don't worry about the GPU hardware at all. I worry about the drivers a lot because there is a huge difference between what the hardware can do and what we can actually get out of it if we have to control it at a fine grain level. That's really been driven home by this past project by working at a very low level of the hardware on consoles and comparing that to these PCs that are true orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS3 or something, but struggle in many cases to keep up the same minimum latency. They have tons of bandwidth, they can render at many more multi-samples, multiple megapixels per screen, but to be able to go through the cycle and get feedback... fence here, update this here, and draw them there... it struggles to get that done in 16ms, and that is frustrating."

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/641/641662p2.html

He's right about gtx 680 being the base level for the consoles.

slipknot0129

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

I don't need to because I already know you're wrong.

One large advantage that consoles have is they program direct to the metal, so something that is super resource intensive that will have a hard time running on a PC, running an OS and all your bloatware going through all the different layers to get to the transistors, will not have as hard of a time on a console without all that middle crap.

When the last gen came out, 1080p was not a common resolution but 720p was, TV wasn't commonly found in HD, Blu-Rays were non-existant.

Now 1080p HDTVs are ubiquitus, everything is HD.

GummiRaccoon

This console generation has shown us the the shift from SD to HD however now near the end of their life cycle many games have went back to below HD standards and barely keep the 30 fps standard to be able push certain graphics and or to have a set frame rate. The next set of consoles will not be that powerful and them only using low to medium ranged gpu's even with "Direct to metal" coding will not be able to bypass the fact that the gpu's aren't able to do full blown tessellation or more advanced shader workloads compared to gpu's that are multiple times faster. These upcoming console will start out with 1080 but will trickle back down to 720 to be able to produce certain graphical effects and or have a set frame rate as time goes on.

explain then how carmack is wrong

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/John-Carmack-Interview-GPU-Race-Intel-Graphics-Ray-Tracing-Voxels-and-more/Intervi

"I don't worry about the GPU hardware at all. I worry about the drivers a lot because there is a huge difference between what the hardware can do and what we can actually get out of it if we have to control it at a fine grain level. That's really been driven home by this past project by working at a very low level of the hardware on consoles and comparing that to these PCs that are true orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS3 or something, but struggle in many cases to keep up the same minimum latency. They have tons of bandwidth, they can render at many more multi-samples, multiple megapixels per screen, but to be able to go through the cycle and get feedback... fence here, update this here, and draw them there... it struggles to get that done in 16ms, and that is frustrating."

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/641/641662p2.html

This Radeon HD 4870 demo has raytracing and voxels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTh_aushEU4

[QUOTE="free_milk"]

Will next gen consoles use quad cores?If they use more will that mean I will have a quad core cpu?

horgen123

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"] "Direct to metal" does not mean anything for a gpu's processing abilities by its design limits. Also consoles still use API's like Pc's( ie direct x and opengl). And the overhead with Pc's using modern OS's like widows vista/7/8 is not bloated, as you say they are. Fact is that an old x1950 can run well coded games with same or better quality as the 360. Coding for a standardize piece of hardware can have its benefits being able to get the hardware to nearly use all its abilities and resources however there is still limits. Once you hit the wall where optimization can not allow any more wiggle room to use less resources to do the same job as before its all but compromises.

This console generation has shown us the the shift from SD to HD however now near the end of their life cycle many games have went back to below HD standards and barely keep the 30 fps standard to be able push certain graphics and or to have a set frame rate. The next set of consoles will not be that powerful and them only using low to medium ranged gpu's even with "Direct to metal" coding will not be able to bypass the fact that the gpu's aren't able to do full blown tessellation or more advanced shader workloads compared to gpu's that are multiple times faster. These upcoming console will start out with 1080 but will trickle back down to 720 to be able to produce certain graphical effects and or have a set frame rate as time goes on.

ronvalencia

explain then how carmack is wrong

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/John-Carmack-Interview-GPU-Race-Intel-Graphics-Ray-Tracing-Voxels-and-more/Intervi

"I don't worry about the GPU hardware at all. I worry about the drivers a lot because there is a huge difference between what the hardware can do and what we can actually get out of it if we have to control it at a fine grain level. That's really been driven home by this past project by working at a very low level of the hardware on consoles and comparing that to these PCs that are true orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS3 or something, but struggle in many cases to keep up the same minimum latency. They have tons of bandwidth, they can render at many more multi-samples, multiple megapixels per screen, but to be able to go through the cycle and get feedback... fence here, update this here, and draw them there... it struggles to get that done in 16ms, and that is frustrating."

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/641/641662p2.html

This Radeon HD 4870 demo has raytracing and voxels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTh_aushEU4

I know this is about consoles however it's mainly about the hardware so i decided to post in here, just in case the admin thought it would be fun to lock my thread if i posted it in the general discusion area :P

Anyway, heres avideo. It's made by 3kliksphilip he's a pretty famous map maker in gaming, has a TON of map making tutorials in source. I even used hi's videos myself to learn maping in Source SDK hammer editor.

He makes some pretty intreasting points and i really gotta agree with him on the RAM part, main issues current gen consoles are having is because of the lack of RAM. Must've been a pain to make games like Battlefield 3 and Crysis 2 run on 500 MB of RAM only.

So, what are you thoughts on this ? What kind of hardware do you think MS and Sony will use next generation to power their machines ?

NightmareP3

HD 7850's die size already smaller than 1st gen NVIDIA RSX.

---

1st gen NVIDIA RSX = 258 mm^2

1st gen IBM CELL = 230 mm^2

Total die size: 488 mm^2

---

Option 1

AMD Radeon HD 7850 (16 CU GpGPU) = 212 mm^2

AMD Trinity (quad core Piledriver CPU + 6 CU IGP) = 246 mm^2

Total die size: 458 mm^2

---

Option 2

Semi-custom AMD Trinity (quad core PileDriver) with Radeon HD 7850 = ~335 mm^2

Quad core PileDriver = ~50 watts (with 4th core for yield issues).

Radeon HD 7850 = 130 watts (16 CUs operational, with 4 CUs disabled for yeild issues).

Total: 180 watts.

---

Based on 1st gen PS3, power consumption can be around 209 watts (e.g. FF13) i.e. PS3 used 380 watt power supply. Option 2 is possible for PS4 i.e. the total die size and total energy consumption is lower then the first gen PS3.

Option 2 wouldn't match Intel Core i5/i7 Quad-Core with Radeon HD 7950/7970 or GTX 670/680 based PCs i.e. on the GPU part, the relationship would be like Xbox 360 vs Geforce 8800 based PC.

---

Xbox 720 Yukon has a total power around 120 watts(1).

Using the leaked Radeon HD 8850's GCN v2 design...

Radeon HD 8850 has 2.99 TFLOPs that consumes around 130 watts. Reduce it by 40 percent, 78 watts ~= 1.794 TFLOPs GPU + 45 watts AMD PileDriver Quad Core CPU = 123 watts.

Still looking at Xbox 720 console with 7850 level compute power that roughly matches the leaked Xbox 720 Durango's MSI branded Radeon HD 6870/6950 card.

Reference

1. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2405922,00.asp

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

I don't need to because I already know you're wrong.

One large advantage that consoles have is they program direct to the metal, so something that is super resource intensive that will have a hard time running on a PC, running an OS and all your bloatware going through all the different layers to get to the transistors, will not have as hard of a time on a console without all that middle crap.

When the last gen came out, 1080p was not a common resolution but 720p was, TV wasn't commonly found in HD, Blu-Rays were non-existant.

Now 1080p HDTVs are ubiquitus, everything is HD.

GummiRaccoon

This console generation has shown us the the shift from SD to HD however now near the end of their life cycle many games have went back to below HD standards and barely keep the 30 fps standard to be able push certain graphics and or to have a set frame rate. The next set of consoles will not be that powerful and them only using low to medium ranged gpu's even with "Direct to metal" coding will not be able to bypass the fact that the gpu's aren't able to do full blown tessellation or more advanced shader workloads compared to gpu's that are multiple times faster. These upcoming console will start out with 1080 but will trickle back down to 720 to be able to produce certain graphical effects and or have a set frame rate as time goes on.

explain then how carmack is wrong

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/John-Carmack-Interview-GPU-Race-Intel-Graphics-Ray-Tracing-Voxels-and-more/Intervi

"I don't worry about the GPU hardware at all. I worry about the drivers a lot because there is a huge difference between what the hardware can do and what we can actually get out of it if we have to control it at a fine grain level. That's really been driven home by this past project by working at a very low level of the hardware on consoles and comparing that to these PCs that are true orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS3 or something, but struggle in many cases to keep up the same minimum latency. They have tons of bandwidth, they can render at many more multi-samples, multiple megapixels per screen, but to be able to go through the cycle and get feedback... fence here, update this here, and draw them there... it struggles to get that done in 16ms, and that is frustrating."

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/641/641662p2.html

Crysis 2 on X1950 Pro runs like XBox 360 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHWPGmf_A_0

Crytek > ID

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

[QUOTE="GummiRaccoon"]

I don't need to because I already know you're wrong.

One large advantage that consoles have is they program direct to the metal, so something that is super resource intensive that will have a hard time running on a PC, running an OS and all your bloatware going through all the different layers to get to the transistors, will not have as hard of a time on a console without all that middle crap.

When the last gen came out, 1080p was not a common resolution but 720p was, TV wasn't commonly found in HD, Blu-Rays were non-existant.

Now 1080p HDTVs are ubiquitus, everything is HD.

GummiRaccoon

This console generation has shown us the the shift from SD to HD however now near the end of their life cycle many games have went back to below HD standards and barely keep the 30 fps standard to be able push certain graphics and or to have a set frame rate. The next set of consoles will not be that powerful and them only using low to medium ranged gpu's even with "Direct to metal" coding will not be able to bypass the fact that the gpu's aren't able to do full blown tessellation or more advanced shader workloads compared to gpu's that are multiple times faster. These upcoming console will start out with 1080 but will trickle back down to 720 to be able to produce certain graphical effects and or have a set frame rate as time goes on.

explain then how carmack is wrong

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/John-Carmack-Interview-GPU-Race-Intel-Graphics-Ray-Tracing-Voxels-and-more/Intervi

"I don't worry about the GPU hardware at all. I worry about the drivers a lot because there is a huge difference between what the hardware can do and what we can actually get out of it if we have to control it at a fine grain level. That's really been driven home by this past project by working at a very low level of the hardware on consoles and comparing that to these PCs that are true orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS3 or something, but struggle in many cases to keep up the same minimum latency. They have tons of bandwidth, they can render at many more multi-samples, multiple megapixels per screen, but to be able to go through the cycle and get feedback... fence here, update this here, and draw them there... it struggles to get that done in 16ms, and that is frustrating."

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/641/641662p2.html

You've alredy been schooled. But let me keep the ball rolling.

Carmack is mainly tlaking about dated API's on the PC - ie DX9, the most used API currently.

DX11 and newer version of openGL (combined with much better support for it on the driver side) do a MUCH better job at optimizing many of the rendering pathways. From runnign common lighting/shadowing code a LOT faster, to introducing multi-threaded rendering.

With DX1 and DX11.1 the difference between beign able to optomize at a very low level and having to reply on the PC API's is MUCH, MUCH smaller. We're tlaking a difference of 10 to 25%, and that's for the incredible optimization we'll see 4 years after the consoles hit the market,