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Impressions after a day with the game
I've spent about ten hours with the game since I picked it up yesterday.
First off, watch this video I made. You need to understand the scale of the game. This is not just an RTS. This is a RT4X. It's a RTS with the scale of a TBS. It does play out an awful lot like an RTS in terms of the gameplay mechanics - you capture territory, build buildings, mine resources, produce units and engage in battles. And yet it also plays out a lot like a TBS in terms of styIe- it's very slow paced, you will run down full blown research trees, your build queue isn't going to make or break the game, nor will the number of actions you can perform per minute make a significant impact.
The most noticable thing straight away about the game is just how polished it all is. The UI is sleek and intuitive, the games load fast (we're talking 2 or 3 seconds here) and it runs very smoothly on recent hardware - it also looks utterly gorgeous. Not just the raw visual quality, but the beautiful styIe of it all. If you've ever played Homeworld, you will know how beautiful and serene space games are - but Sins really takes it to the next level. Some of the nebulae are just jawdropping, and there's nothing cooler than a giant green star.
The online lobby is also extremely user-friendly - after using GPG for the last few months, Ironclad's online service is just an absolute pleasure. Setting up games is quick and easy, as is creating your own customised galaxies (a note on making your own galaxies - a 1 star game (with about ten planets) will probably take somewhere between 1 and 2 hours, but it's possible to make games with hundreds of stars and over a thousand planets). We're talking months of daily play.
In a typical game, you will start with one planet. Your first goal will be to get a small economy set up, get a flagship out and a small fleet, then begin scouting and colonising nearby planets and asteroids. You may notice from the above video that there are faintly opaque rings circling each planet. This is the gravity well. Your ships can only move freely within these - you may also note, in the video, faint lines running between each planet. These are, for all intents and purposes, wormholes. They aren't, but that's how it plays out. You fly into one to zoom automatically to the connecting celestial body. This means all combat happens around planets, which keeps things coherent.
You have three economy resources. Metal, crystals and cash. Metal and crystal are gotten by mining asteroids which orbit planets (or are sometimes just floating alone if there's no planet nearby) but both can be bought on the black market. How much cash you have is determined by taxes, which is determined by how many planets you have and their respective populations. You can also earn money through trading, or through selling your other resources on the black market.
Your flagships (known as capital ships in the game) have a WarCraft III styIe leveling vibe going on. They earn experience, level up and get access to new abilities. Each race has several, each of which has a specialised role (from bomber carriers to planetbusters), and they are really the centre of your fleet.
There is very little building in the game, and much (or all, if you want) is automatic. Each planet has a builder unit, and these units never need to be commanded manually. You also don't build these units manually. You get them free, and if they die, they rebuild automatically. Each planet has so many 'slots' for logistics (trade and production buildings, and other similar things) or tactical things, which are mostly defences. You have to choose carefully how you spend your available slots.
Once you have a small base and fleet established at your homeworld, you'll want to begin exploring and colonising. This is made difficult because most of the planets are pretty well defended by random fleets of non-aggressive neutrals, who will defend their territory but not attack. They are similar to the rebels in the Total War games. Early colonisation feels a little like creeping in WarCraft 3, only it's much slower paced, and its purpose is to slow you down - rushing is literally impossible, even on a small map.
There are also pirates to contend with, who are pretty similar to barbarians in the Civ games - only there is a bounty mechanic, where the pirates will attack the enemy of whomever pays them most cash. This means you're constantly trying to outbid your enemies.
Capturing a planet is as simple as clicking on it with your colonising vessell. Once it's under your control, you can build all of the buildings and planet-related upgrade technologies avialalbe to you. This plays out in a very similar manner to the Total War games, only in real time. But there are many different types of planets (ice planets, terran, volcanic, etc) and you need the correct technologies to colonise them. There are several full blown tech trees for each faction. They fall into military and civilian categories, and how far you can progress in either is determined by how many research stations you have dedicated to each category. These cost logistic slots on your planets, so you're ultimately limited in how far you can progress in each tech tree by which buildings you have, though obviously if there are planets enough, you can build enough buildings to tech everything). The tech tree, in addtion to costing time to research, costs resources. This means you need to be careful.
As cool and engrossing as the empire building side of the game is, this is a space combat game - and what would a space combat game be without great combat? The battles are amazing. There are lots of different ships, each of which have a different size, design and weapon type - so you'll have tiny little fighters dogfighting, slightly larger frigates forming opposing lines while cruisers and vast capital ships tear through enemy lines. The lead designer compared the battles in Sins with Babylon 5's, and it's a good comparison. You'll have these huge fleets blasting away at eachother with all kinds of cool effects, there are laser weapons and torpedoes and gauss weapons and ion cannons and it just all looks spectacular. A cinematic mode option drops many of the UI icons and lines and stuff, so it all just looks magnificent. It really is one of those games you just want to sit back and watch.
There are three factions, which roughly fall into human, evil human and elda-- alien categories. They each have their own distinct styIe unique units and tech trees, but in my dabbling with each, they seem to do a SupCom - they look different, they have some different units and buildings, but they play quite the same in the big picture.
The AI is pretty good from what I've seen so far. On medium, it's pretty opposing and I suppose hard is a genuine challenge. The fact that the game is as much about empire management as it is anything else means that the AI works better than a typical RTS. But in games like this, players are always going to be better than AIs to play with - and from what I've seen of the lobbies so far, you'll never struggle to find someone to play with. You can also save your game online so those epic, fifty hour games with several stars and a hundred planets are very doable with friends.
In short, Sins is a game that defines PC gaming. It pushes all boundaries, it basically creates a new genre, it looks amazing, it runs amazing, it plays amazingly well. I've admittedly only spent about ten hours with it so far, but I do not have a single complaint with the game. It's perfect.
2008 RTS game of the year, now's who with me?gogators4life
I would agree with you if Starcraft 2 wasn't coming out this year.
I honestly did not read all of that mfsa, but I did read/skim through it and it's good to hear that you like the game and that you think it is perfect.
I really can't wait to get my hands on this one, hopefully sometime this week.
[QUOTE="gogators4life"]2008 RTS game of the year, now's who with me?darkmario123
I would agree with you if Starcraft 2 wasn't coming out this year.
And it's not.
We will have a clash between Dawn of war 2 VS Starcraft 2 next year. :D
[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]I honestly did not read all of that mfsa
mfsa
I doubt anyone will. But I do it anyway. I find it very therapeutic.
In short, everyone should buy it. I don't even like space games and I'm thinking we've got GOTY material here.
Yeah, writing my 3+ page blog posts can be very relaxing even if people don't read the whole entry.Anyway when I first read about this game the first thing that came to my mind was that this game is going to be GOTY. From what I have read it seems like Galactic Civilizations 2 meets Homeworld. Would you say that is an accurate description?
I read that the combat, beside looking cool was lacking in depth, please tell me that they were wrong.
I read that the combat, beside looking cool was lacking in depth, please tell me that they were wrong.
Nikalai_88
I think the "lacking in depth" has to do with the friendly AI being so damn good. It will literally fight your battles for you (And not play in a retarded manner like auto-resolving in other games), but you can at any time take over the battle yourself and control your navies mid battle as you see fit.
[QUOTE="Nikalai_88"]I read that the combat, beside looking cool was lacking in depth, please tell me that they were wrong.
DucksBrains
I think the "lacking in depth" has to do with the friendly AI being so damn good. It will literally fight your battles for you (And not play in a retarded manner like auto-resolving in other games), but you can at any time take over the battle yourself and control your navies mid battle as you see fit.
Pretty much and you have to remember the scope of the game, it isn't just about the individual battles it is about conquering the whole star system(or star systems depending on size of the game). Having a very in depth combat system that required a lot of attention would make the game impossible.
That is why the have a very reliable AI, so all you have to do is order them to a planet and go off giving orders to another group, working with diplomacy, build your economy, etc. This is all while battles are going on all throughout the star system. Battles are very fun to look at and sometimes it does require you to order units to attack a specific target(like team up on an enemy capital ship).
[QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]I honestly did not read all of that mfsa
smokeydabear076
I doubt anyone will. But I do it anyway. I find it very therapeutic.
In short, everyone should buy it. I don't even like space games and I'm thinking we've got GOTY material here.
Yeah, writing my 3+ page blog posts can be very relaxing even if people don't read the whole entry.Anyway when I first read about this game the first thing that came to my mind was that this game is going to be GOTY. From what I have read it seems like Galactic Civilizations 2 meets Homeworld. Would you say that is an accurate description?
That's a perfect description - except it's all skirmish there's no campaign. And a few of the more RTS-y stuff from Homeworld isn't in, like you can't set formations and you're only able to order ships to move in two dimensions (there is depth, but it's automatic and mostly cosmetic). Besides that, it is Homeworld and GalCiv 2.
Allright but I still don't understand the feel of the game and what it plays like. Everyone is stating that it is like HW and GCII but the combat is not like HW and Diplomacy/Economy is not like GCII. So what is the game like? Can someone mention some cool little strategy they came up with, some diplomatical shenanigans that they pulled off, some economic marvel they created?Nikalai_88
See those pirates razing your colony? I payed them off to go after you so I have time to maneuver my fleet next to your home planets and cut your production apart.
[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]I honestly did not read all of that mfsa
mfsa
I doubt anyone will. But I do it anyway. I find it very therapeutic.
In short, everyone should buy it. I don't even like space games and I'm thinking we've got GOTY material here.
Yeah, writing my 3+ page blog posts can be very relaxing even if people don't read the whole entry.Anyway when I first read about this game the first thing that came to my mind was that this game is going to be GOTY. From what I have read it seems like Galactic Civilizations 2 meets Homeworld. Would you say that is an accurate description?
That's a perfect description - except it's all skirmish there's no campaign. And a few of the more RTS-y stuff from Homeworld isn't in, like you can't set formations and you're only able to order ships to move in two dimensions (there is depth, but it's automatic and mostly cosmetic). Besides that, it is Homeworld and GalCiv 2.
That's good to hear. Even though I like the missing Homeworld features you listed, the game still seems perfect nonetheless.First off, watch this video I made.
mfsa
Ahhh, so that's what your name means. I remember you having something about "asfm is dead" in your sig before.
[QUOTE="Nikalai_88"]Allright but I still don't understand the feel of the game and what it plays like. Everyone is stating that it is like HW and GCII but the combat is not like HW and Diplomacy/Economy is not like GCII. So what is the game like? Can someone mention some cool little strategy they came up with, some diplomatical shenanigans that they pulled off, some economic marvel they created?DucksBrains
See those pirates razing your colony? I payed them off to go after you so I have time to maneuver my fleet next to your home planets and cut your production apart.
Give me Moaarrr!
I mean how do you know what the home planet is? How do you know it is even a major production zone? Is there some sort of a spying system in place?
Does this game retail at $40? Or is this some special Best Buy deal for like a week or so (I know Circuit City does that a lot.)Hot_Potato
Retail is $40. Yes, SD is friggin awesome like that :P
mfsa, that all sounds great, but how's the combat? People are making it seem like the game "plays itself", and I'm really not looking forward to an AI vs. AI fight with me watching in the background. Is there micro-management, positioning & movement of units to get an advantage? Is there targetting of specific hard points (ala Nexus or Homeworld 1/2) or something to that effect?F1_2004
You can tell your units where to move and who to fire at but realistically you will be so busy running your empire, you wont want to individually micro manage each ship. This is not a combat sim. It is a real time 4x game basically.
mfsa, that all sounds great, but how's the combat? People are making it seem like the game "plays itself", and I'm really not looking forward to an AI vs. AI fight with me watching in the background. Is there micro-management, positioning & movement of units to get an advantage? Is there targetting of specific hard points (ala Nexus or Homeworld 1/2) or something to that effect?F1_2004
The thing is, it's not an RTS. Not really. Sins is more like a real time representation of a turn based game. Unless you're playing on a really small map, you'll likely have several fleets (upto perhaps 300 ships), and you'll be fighting battles all over the galaxy. If micro was important, you'd lose most of your battles.
Unit positioning, from what I can tell so far, is meaningless - though ships (especially the larger ships) can take a long time to turn so if you manage to attack from the rear, it might have a fairly positive impact... but it's probably not going to win you the game.
Some ships (especially capital ships) have triggerable and passive abilities, and while these are automatic by default, you can turn them all off and enjoy a small clickfest - I haven't tried it yet, so I can't comment on how it pans out - but it's probably closer to Company of Heroes than it is to WarCraft 3 for special ability micro. There is no specific targeting, nor can you select specific ship weapons to fire against specific targets (the larger ships have weapons all over the place and they just sort of fire at random targets with port and starboard weapons, no matter who your manually selected target is).
With all AI assistance off, Sins is probably most comparable with a 1v1 of Supreme Commander played on an 8 player map. It's how you build your empire, how you build your fleets, and where and when you choose to engage in battle that wins you the game. With AI assistance on, and thanks to the magnificent UI, you can literally play the whole game without seeing a single space ship.
If you're really looking for a new Homeworld game, this probably isn't it. It's pretty much 75% Galactic Civilizations 25% Homeworld.
[QUOTE="mfsa"]First off, watch this video I made.
JP_Russell
Ahhh, so that's what your name means. I remember you having something about "asfm is dead" in your sig before.
Yeah... the name used to be a perfect description of me, and it's just sort of stuck around afterwards. I use it everywhere, except here.
mfsa, are you trying to get a GS-job or something? Not that I'm complaining about the length of your posts, more info and less vs threads = better forums.artur79
Heh, no.
But I recently started a two month period of voluntary unemployment and all I'm really doing is gaming, sleeping, running and writing. I enjoy it and even if no one responds postiively to it, I think it's worth my time. Tapping on a keyboard is real therapeutic. It's like punching tiny plastic punching bags with your fingers.
[QUOTE="artur79"]mfsa, are you trying to get a GS-job or something? Not that I'm complaining about the length of your posts, more info and less vs threads = better forums.mfsa
Heh, no.
But I recently started a two month period of voluntary unemployment and all I'm really doing is gaming, sleeping, running and writing. I enjoy it and even if no one responds postiively to it, I think it's worth my time. Tapping on a keyboard is real therapeutic. It's like punching tiny plastic punching bags with your fingers.
Wow. Two months without eating? Damn, good luck with that. :P
[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]I honestly did not read all of that mfsa
mfsa
I doubt anyone will. But I do it anyway. I find it very therapeutic.
In short, everyone should buy it. I don't even like space games and I'm thinking we've got GOTY material here.
But I read all of it :(
[QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="artur79"]mfsa, are you trying to get a GS-job or something? Not that I'm complaining about the length of your posts, more info and less vs threads = better forums.JP_Russell
Heh, no.
But I recently started a two month period of voluntary unemployment and all I'm really doing is gaming, sleeping, running and writing. I enjoy it and even if no one responds postiively to it, I think it's worth my time. Tapping on a keyboard is real therapeutic. It's like punching tiny plastic punching bags with your fingers.
Wow. Two months without eating? Damn, good luck with that. :P
Oh snap! You got me!
I'd like to respond the only way I know how. With a torrent of vulgar abuse. But seeing as how I was moderated yesterday for calling Biggest_Loser a loser, I think I'll just leave you with this: I'm currently typing one handed while making a hand gesture at my monitor. It's a hand gesture in reference to the French.
[QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]I honestly did not read all of that mfsa
Lonelynight
I doubt anyone will. But I do it anyway. I find it very therapeutic.
In short, everyone should buy it. I don't even like space games and I'm thinking we've got GOTY material here.
But I read all of it :(
Me too. Mfsa's posts are generally the best around here, and his longest posts are often his most interesting to read, so it's all good.
Thanks for the info, I'll have to pick it up since I'm a big RTS fan. It's just a pity the combat wasn't as good as the rest of the game apparently is. What I wouldn't give for a good space RTS with the graphics and combat of Nexus: The Jupiter Incident...F1_2004
ITs not realistic to expect that form this type of game.. Homeworld 2 for instance you usually have tops 2 to 3 battles.. With a relatively simplistic economy.. SoaSE is completely different, where you may be getting attacked on 5 to 8 fronts while researching, building infastructure, and managing economy..
I decided I am going to hold off on this game simply because there are tons of other games that according to my gameplay-time-management list I have to finish. If I buy I will just get swamped further and when I am playing too many games at once it becomes less fun.
[QUOTE="JP_Russell"][QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="artur79"]mfsa, are you trying to get a GS-job or something? Not that I'm complaining about the length of your posts, more info and less vs threads = better forums.mfsa
Heh, no.
But I recently started a two month period of voluntary unemployment and all I'm really doing is gaming, sleeping, running and writing. I enjoy it and even if no one responds postiively to it, I think it's worth my time. Tapping on a keyboard is real therapeutic. It's like punching tiny plastic punching bags with your fingers.
Wow. Two months without eating? Damn, good luck with that. :P
Oh snap! You got me!
I'd like to respond the only way I know how. With a torrent of vulgar abuse. But seeing as how I was moderated yesterday for calling Biggest_Loser a loser, I think I'll just leave you with this: I'm currently typing one handed while making a hand gesture at my monitor. It's a hand gesture in reference to the French.
The effeminate hand wave?
Here is why I am falling hard for this game.
-The developers are on their forums prior to launch, and continue to be on their forums providing amazing support. One guy, for example, found the AI exploiting the Seige Frigate (en masse) to destroys his capital, the devs were on to discuss it with him, find out about the issue, and send it to be tested in their studio. That's real commitment.
-They don't treat us like crooks. Rather than dealing with all kinds of DRM that potentially results in the game not running on your machine, they *reward you* for purchasing the game by offering updates, new content, et cetera to legitimate owners. Rather than treating everyone as a pirate, they treat their paying customers with respect.
-Awesome optimization. The dev team actually wrote an article about this, and they're right - too many games expect you to upgrade your machine just to get a playable experience. That's not reasonable - I understand when your game doesn't run well on a five year old card - but if my GPU is only a year or two old, your game should run well. They think so too - this game runs well on a Radeon 9600, and still manages to have great graphics possible for those with a GeForce 8800gtx.
-Fair price. Seriously, what's up with seeing some PC games now pushing $60 at launch, or GFW LIVE titles that expect me to pay $50, plus another $50 for a year of online? What about all the wannabe-MMOs that offer barely any support or content, yet expect you to pay monthly fees? Phantasy Star Universe? Hellgate London? Heck, even Tabula Rasa - games that are subscription model that make you raise an eyebrow. Paying $40 retail? I can handle that.
.
I love everything about the concept, appreciation from the developers, and way the PC gaming community is being treated with this game. I haven't even gotten to the gameplay, or the storyline, or the execution - simply in their distribution and customer relations model, I'm already sold.
[QUOTE="Lonelynight"][QUOTE="mfsa"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"]I honestly did not read all of that mfsa
JP_Russell
I doubt anyone will. But I do it anyway. I find it very therapeutic.
In short, everyone should buy it. I don't even like space games and I'm thinking we've got GOTY material here.
But I read all of it :(
Me too. Mfsa's posts are generally the best around here, and his longest posts are often his most interesting to read, so it's all good.
Yours and his
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