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I would say the shop example is incorrect as there are way too many assumptions. Ho do we know if only that all 100 would have actually bought he game ? or the fact that PC may have larger install base than 360 or PS 3 etc Splinter Chao Theory was uncracked for 1.5 yrs (IIRC) and it never really made any waves in sales (if we go by NPD reports)naval
Well Ubisoft and many other publishers have reported loses on PC market...thats how we know.
What? Are you under the impression steam only games don't get pirated? Not to mention, steam itself *is* DRM...Renevent42;
To get a pirated steam game, is really a hassle and crap online play. Not to mention instead of having like 50 torrents for it you could possibly only find 1 or 2.
( I DO NOT CONDONE PIRATING)
So going with steam is the best option.
Also, "OMG, I GOT TO LOG IN TO PLAY A GAME!" Big whoop, steam is awesome.
Let me ask you this, would you rather deal with UBI DRM, or Steam?
[QUOTE="naval"]I would say the shop example is incorrect as there are way too many assumptions. Ho do we know if only that all 100 would have actually bought he game ? or the fact that PC may have larger install base than 360 or PS 3 etc Splinter Chao Theory was uncracked for 1.5 yrs (IIRC) and it never really made any waves in sales (if we go by NPD reports)rhazzy
Well Ubisoft and many other publishers have reported loses on PC market...thats how we know.
have any link for ubisoft losses or just speaking without any proof ?
[QUOTE="zomglolcats"]Well lets look at it this way. As more and more games get shipped with increasingly ridiculous DRM schemes, people who might not have otherwise thought about pirating might actually contemplate it. Of course, there's no way to extrapolate any real numbers from that, but it's a logical assumption. Me personally, I'm not buying the game, but I'm not going to pirate it either.Renevent42
It's logical, and in all certainty does happen. The issue is, to what effect? What percent of these moral objectors are actual customers for Ubisoft games in the first place? What percent of people would purchase the game had they not be able to get it for free?
Nobody knows these numbers, but I can assure you that's the line of thinking Ubisoft is working off of...they would not have invested all this money into DRM had there not at least been some confidence that *attempting* to stop piracy had some sort of pay-off in the end.
Misguided? Just wrong? I dunno, there's no actual numbers to really say...but one thing is for sure the bean counters at Ubisoft seem to believe so and if any of you think they are stupid people you seriously underestimate them.
Once again you miss the point lets say there's 100 people who are interested in AC2. 75 of them plan to pirate it 25 say they'll buy it. The DRM doesn't effect those 75 people because the crackers remove any effects the DRM may cause. The DRM only effects those 25 who plan to buy the game... Lolcats is saying that of those 25 people, a few might go "F this, i'm not supporting DRM" and pirate it instead. all UBI is trying to do now is convince their customers that the massive hoops they have to jump through to play the game that they want to sell you are to prevent piracy. Even though it does nothing and anyone who has a brain knows it. Piracy causes the DRM because companies want to stop it. But DRM causes Piracy at times because people dont like DRM and it only hurts the consumer.
^--- LoL
Yeah, Rockstar said the same before 2 years about GTA IV :) Ubi's last man standing on the fortress now. Not for much longer.
The sad thing is that because of their protection (which will be cracked soon or later) they prevent the legal users from buying it. I'm still buying it tho, but I hope my internet won't drop very often.
What are you laughing about?^--- LoL
KalDurenik
Hi,
I think some people in this thread think that their math skills are of a high level. Do you not realise that alot of the people involved in making these games are very very intelligent people. I find a lot of the posts in this thread to be stupidly arrogant. Im reading posts were people are quoting things like :
70 people will pirate (no drm)
30 people will buy (no drm)
85 people will pirate (with drm)
15 people willbuy (with drm)
This simple maths is getting pushed forward in this discussion by people who dont know the whole picture. They read some information on the internet (not all the information as it is not available) reguarding certain aspects of the issue, then push their conclusions through as though it is the truth. (I shudder to think where science would be these days if it used similar methods for conclusion).
I am sure my bright 10yr old cousin would have no problem with the level of maths used in these examples. So i am 100% sure that the people involved with making the drm etc can understand this. If this was true, i am sure that they have the brain capacity to agree with you and scrap the whole notion of drm.
Thing is it is waaaaaay more complicated than people are making it out to be. I have high confidence that the reasoning behind the decision to try methods like drm are many levels more complicated than some of the people in this thread are using. The reason why it is more complicated, is because it needs to be if they want to get a clearer picture as to whether they should pursue tactics such as drm.
If the crackers are doing this "just to laugh at the stupid developers" and to gain kudos with their peers.Why dont they make a drm that is uncrackable, sell it, make loads of money, gain a lot of respect from everyone who has tried and failed before them. Thing is, its so much easier to break something than to prevent it from being broken. So in my eyes its not one over the developers, as they are just doing the "easier" part ( i say easier, as i realise the cracking itself is something that takes a brilliant mind to do).
I also get the feeling, some not all people, are complaining so much because they want to justify to themselves that its ok to pirate. Just an excus to make it somehow ok to do what they wanted to do anyways.
I could say so many things that are wrong... but i cant be bothered...
I could say so many things that are wrong... but i cant be bothered...
KalDurenik
Dont make me laugh. So you think its as simple as :
70 people will pirate (no drm)
30 people will buy (no drm)
85 people will pirate (with drm)
15 people will buy (with drm)
and thats it? You really think this is enough data to convince a project worth millions to totally scrap drm (protect their investment)? Where was this data derived from? Or is it a case that people have a "feeling" this is how it is, make up numbers off the top of their heads,and pass it off as a well rounded evaluation of the scenario.
If you are going to convince me that companies taking these measures to try and protect their investments are stupid etc, please provide me with a far more detailed description as to how you came to this conclusion. I cannot make a decision as to whether the people who are saying drm is totally useless, are right or wrong with such a lack of information.I need to see all the facts and figures. Without these i find it impossible to come to a fair conclusion. Hence i dont start insulting companies for my own dislike for the dreaded drm.
When you provide me with this data, and i conclude that indeed it is totally 100% useless then i will be the first one to be spreading the word!
A pirate downloads so many games (good, bad, multiplayer, single player, mmo) that there is no way to track what games he would buy or not. For all we know he might buy LESS games if he could not pirate them, same reason as why he might buy MORE if he could not pirate them. Like i said before there is no way to track it. A good game = GOOD SALES. DRM that hurt your customers = Bad publicity (because the average casual gamer dont care about the DRM untill it shove a pole up their ***)
Also 0 and 1 != physical ITEM
The end
They are...if there were no pirates there would be no DRM like this...fact. Don't be pissed with Ubisoft, be pissed at all the cheap jerks ripping them off. Eh whatever, that's probably you anyways even if you don't admit it. It's probably 90% of the people who post on these boards in reality if piracy rates say anything about the percent of gamers who pirate.Renevent42
I'm going to remain pissed at Ubisoft no matter how many pirates are out there. Want to know why? It's due to the fact that I'm a f***ing paying customer but I am the one who has to bend over and ask for more if I want to play their games. Why can't companies that lessons from smaller development houses and reward the customer instead of seeing them as a "potential threat to our bottom line"?
[QUOTE="Renevent42"]They are...if there were no pirates there would be no DRM like this...fact. Don't be pissed with Ubisoft, be pissed at all the cheap jerks ripping them off. Eh whatever, that's probably you anyways even if you don't admit it. It's probably 90% of the people who post on these boards in reality if piracy rates say anything about the percent of gamers who pirate.Cdscottie
I'm going to remain pissed at Ubisoft no matter how many pirates are out there. Want to know why? It's due to the fact that I'm a f***ing paying customer but I am the one who has to bend over and ask for more if I want to play their games. Why can't companies that lessons from smaller development houses and reward the customer instead of seeing them as a "potential threat to our bottom line"?
Because most smaller development houses don't create games with 20 million dollar budgets. The more money on the line, the greater the pressure to protect that investment. This is all very easy to say when it's not our money on the line...
And you really don't have to bend over backwards to play their game...in today's high technology environment most people won't even notice the DRM. let's not resort to silly hyperboles.
[QUOTE="Cdscottie"][QUOTE="Renevent42"]They are...if there were no pirates there would be no DRM like this...fact. Don't be pissed with Ubisoft, be pissed at all the cheap jerks ripping them off. Eh whatever, that's probably you anyways even if you don't admit it. It's probably 90% of the people who post on these boards in reality if piracy rates say anything about the percent of gamers who pirate.Renevent42
I'm going to remain pissed at Ubisoft no matter how many pirates are out there. Want to know why? It's due to the fact that I'm a f***ing paying customer but I am the one who has to bend over and ask for more if I want to play their games. Why can't companies that lessons from smaller development houses and reward the customer instead of seeing them as a "potential threat to our bottom line"?
Because most smaller development houses don't create games with 20 million dollar budgets. The more money on the line, the greater the pressure to protect that investment. This is all very easy to say when it's not our money on the line...I'm sorry but who has more the lose? The company with 10 employees who are pouring sweat, blood, and their own hard earned money into a project they believe in or a company of 100s of employees who has the backing of millions to billions of dollars? I'd go with the 10 employee company. As well, EA has backed off of such DRM and they don't seem to be hurting for money....look at the sales for BC2 as an example.
Because most smaller development houses don't create games with 20 million dollar budgets. The more money on the line, the greater the pressure to protect that investment. This is all very easy to say when it's not our money on the line...[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="Cdscottie"]
I'm going to remain pissed at Ubisoft no matter how many pirates are out there. Want to know why? It's due to the fact that I'm a f***ing paying customer but I am the one who has to bend over and ask for more if I want to play their games. Why can't companies that lessons from smaller development houses and reward the customer instead of seeing them as a "potential threat to our bottom line"?
Cdscottie
I'm sorry but who has more the lose? The company with 10 employees who are pouring sweat, blood, and their own hard earned money into a project they believe in or a company of 100s of employees who has the backing of millions to billions of dollars? I'd go with the 10 employee company. As well, EA has backed off of such DRM and they don't seem to be hurting for money....look at the sales for BC2 as an example.
And you don't think the people who developed AC2 poured their sweat and blood into the game? And the 10 man team obviously has less to lose than a company investing 20 million into a game...especially when that money is from investors. Small devs aren't the only one who risk going under due to a bad game. Many big time studios have crumbled through game history. And EA maybe backed off a bit, but they still are using fairly heavy DRM...so are most companies these days. Steam is one of the most restrictive DRM's out there...maybe not quite as bad as some, but it certainly ranks way up there...and you barely hear a peep from people on this board. Do I care? No, I have internet and games are cheap for the amount of entertainment they provide. It's not a life decision to purchase a game...even if the DRM is unfriendly to me the consumer.Just like you did now? There ARE no numbers every number you have read about IS A LIE. YOU CANT TRACK PIRATED COPIES, YOU CANT TRACK POTENTIAL LOST SALES. The only thing you can do is make a great game with few bugs and great service. If you make the people that BUY the game happy THEY WILL ALSO BUY STUFF FOR IT (DLC). Now the main reason why they make ALOT of the DLC is because of RESALES a person that want to buy the game but can buy it from another person instead. They are most likely a lost sale because ubisoft never get to see the money!
A pirate downloads so many games (good, bad, multiplayer, single player, mmo) that there is no way to track what games he would buy or not. For all we know he might buy LESS games if he could not pirate them, same reason as why he might buy MORE if he could not pirate them. Like i said before there is no way to track it. A good game = GOOD SALES. DRM that hurt your customers = Bad publicity (because the average casual gamer dont care about the DRM untill it shove a pole up their ***)Also 0 and 1 != physical ITEM
The end
KalDurenik
"just like you did now"? What does this imply? Im gonna guess it was my use of numbers? If this is the case, then you really dont get my point. My point is people are trying to get their point accross by using "made up numbers". Like you said "every number you have read about IS A LIE. YOU CANT TRACK PIRATED COPIES, YOU CANT TRACK POTENTIAL LOST SALES." They are providing me with nothing more than these numbers, and theories that make sense but are not set upon provable fact. As there is no provable fact, this means the theory "could" be wrong.
All i want is a balanced discussion, where people use the whole facts. Not just numbers off the top of their heads to back up their theories. Without the full information, it is bad practice to put across a theory and pass it off as if it were fact.
I research in my main place of work. It makes me fustrated when people hear theory that i tell them (just because i think they may find it interesting) and they laugh saying it just silly. They without understanding any of the solid math backing up the theory, rubbish it as though it is theory that it is wrong. However i never try to claim that the theory is correct. I can just provide all the data known to anyone in the maths world, that backs up my point, and explain how i come to the conclusion i have. I always stress that there is probably big gaps in our understanding, and that indeed the conclusion may be wrong.
People like youcome across as thoughit is "fact" that drm is rubbish (you start shouting, and ending posst in immature ways eg the end!). You provide me with nothing more thana few points, of a much larger system, without any sources to back you up. I hope you have credible sources to back up all your theory, if not how can you argue so strongly against drm. You might be right, but how can you be so sure.
It may even turn out that you indeed know all the details. But how do you know you do. Do you work for each of the companies that try anti piracy measures such as drm. Unless your part of those teams that make these decisions, i cannot see how you "know" you are right. I would say if your not in such a position, then its more like you "think" your right.
Same here for SH5. Only exception will be if I can buy the game for under 10 bucks and maybe by then they will patch out the constant online thing and the mods for it will make it even better.well. i was going to buy this game but, definitely not getting it now.
chris4355
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