Folding@Home, Y do it?(beside helping curing cancer)
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Maybe you don't realize it, but your posts are sounding as condescending as everybody else's. Sure you volunteer, and I applaud you for that, but what's the point in essentially calling people who use their ps3s to fold dumb?[QUOTE="nosferatu"] Why can't you just agree to disagree and leave it at that instead of attempting to talk down to me?
Or would you like to compare studies?Deyee
It's a myth anyway...don't worry about it.You might help cancer but you sure aren't helping global warming, Folding@Home uses up the Cell processor completely and as a result the power consumption is going to be high.
So Don't bother to help 'cure' cancer and help global warming instead.
blacktorn
[QUOTE="blacktorn"]It's a myth anyway...don't worry about it. uh oh. Don't get another debate started.You might help cancer but you sure aren't helping global warming, Folding@Home uses up the Cell processor completely and as a result the power consumption is going to be high.
So Don't bother to help 'cure' cancer and help global warming instead.
KoolEmpty
Oh, it's easily put into perspective.
Take your electric bill by itself.
Then take your electric bill with your PS3 running 24 hours a day for a month.
Now, take the difference in money and actually donate it to cancer research.
It's really just that simple, but like I said earlier; if you believe the pipedream feel free to partake.
www.cancer.org/docroot/DON/DON_0.asp
That's odd, nowhere on that website does it say anything of F@H. Hmmm....
www.cancer.org/docroot/par/par_0.asp
Nowhere on that one either.
Deyee
two flaws in your argument
1- if you donate money to cancer research maybe 90% + goes to it actuallly (maybe paying for workers scientists supplies)
however if you do folding at home you are partaking in 100% of that type of research. Imagine if f@h didn't exist, then
http://folding.stanford.edu/results.html
http://folding.stanford.edu/papers.html
wouldn't exist, and probably they would've had to go to a super computer which costs alot of money (which could be used on research) inorder to find the same results.
2- f@h is done by STANFORD so how about you go there and look at STANFORD not FOLDING@home, and for you to say STANFORD hasn't made an contributions to f@h is just plain ....
(oh and it' s not just cancer)
(wtf this copy andn paste system is screwing me up)
You might help cancer but you sure aren't helping global warming, Folding@Home uses up the Cell processor completely and as a result the power consumption is going to be high.
So Don't bother to help 'cure' cancer and help global warming instead.
blacktorn
This is assuming that one's local power is supplied by a fossil fuel power plant, which is not always the case. My power is actually supplied by the Turkey Point Nuclear Generating Station.
I'm glad to use some clean power if the simulation data can help researchers further understand the process of protein folding.
[QUOTE="blacktorn"]You might help cancer but you sure aren't helping global warming, Folding@Home uses up the Cell processor completely and as a result the power consumption is going to be high.
So Don't bother to help 'cure' cancer and help global warming instead.
Xtreeem813
This is assuming that one's local power is supplied by a fossil fuel power plant, which is not always the case. My power is actually supplied by the Turkey Point Nuclear Generating Station.
I'm glad to use some clean power if the simulation data can help researchers further understand the process of protein folding.
actually since PS3's are surpassing the work load of PC's they are saving power since they're getting more work done in smaller numbers.
Has anyone mentioned global warming. In a few years time when the PS3 has sold 100 million units, can you imagine how much this would contribute to damage to the environment.
Seriously though, I don't know how efficient this F@H is. Surely getting proper funded super computers and the like is more efficient.
I recommend running Folding@Home if you can. On the PS3, or PC.
It's a very worthwhile cause. All it will cost you is a small increase in power bill and remembering to turn it on.
[QUOTE="Dr-Strangelove"]If you find it useful enough to help with money or time that's great, that's not to say one form of volunteering is any lesser or greater than another.Deyee
YOU aren't volunteering AT ALL. You're turning a console on and letting it sit there. Is that clear now?
You asked for alternative ways to volunteer and I listed them. I'm sorry none were as easy as believing that a console running is actually "helping the cause". But since you took it as a personal attack that I suggested educating yourself on illnesses running in the family I'll be sure only to respond with who I was talking with earlier.
You are the.... I cant even say what I want to say right know because I will get banned, but saying your not volunteering at all is just stupid you think donating is always so good well there is something called corruption, baka (yes im talking in Japanese look it up) You really think that all donations go to were they say it goes. Sorry if you truly believe that humans dont take exploit this than you are a BONKURA. Trying to say what were doing isn't justified simply because it is a gaming console, was PS3 made solely for gaming no so thats one of your points debunked. SIdes if you wanted just a gaming system get a Wii NO hate intended. Do you feel that money is the only real way to help so if so once again your a BONKURA. Humans are the reasons we have money if it wasn't for us than everything would be free to use. Just because you don't want to try to help don't try and deture people from this. Its people like you who makes me look onto humans with disgust. Honestly, I feel that if we do manage to cure cancer another disease will show up in its place or nature will turn against us, why because this helps keep the population from growing way to large, look at japan. Here's another thing people said we would never reach outer space we got to the moon. People said Afroamericans would always be insignificant to Caucasians look at the progress we made. Even if its only helping a little bit thats just one step closer to there goals. I remember I was walking with a friend, we just got pizza and were walking home, well a poor or homeless guy came up to us and asked of if that was pizza I was like yea. He asked if he could get money for pizza I was going to give him the money when my friend stopped me. I never forgot that time that I could've helped someone. I know he might have just bought drugs or liquor with it but its the thought that counts. So you sir need to get off your high horse because just helping a bit is still helping, sides your sig makes me think of you as a troll but I wont say you are because you don't know me and don't you dare try striking me down because I use logic in everything I do and I will do what ever is possible to prove my point. Your entitled to your own beliefs its when people sound as if there trying to change others into a negative, its fine if they are destroying them selves but doing it because of the simple fact of your ignorance is just wrong. (One of the reasons why I dislike going to church they keep pressuring me to get baptized I refuse because I have my own beliefs should anyone look down on me no. Just like (yes this sounds contridicting to what I said) No one should look down on you. NO ONE IS BETTER THAN ANY OTHER CREATURE ON THIS PLANET. As for the people who are so greenhouse effect I understand your point and I want to know what you are doing about it. If your against it take up action. I'm against tabacco so what am I doing I am getting a bunch of pictures and putting it around my school. If you have a cause get people to join you. One last thing because this is getting long and I know not many people like to read long things, don't bother me on my spelling It's just irritating I know its wrong if you don't understand something P.M. me and I'll explain my views just don't get all English teacher on me. Not my fault that English has the most words of all languages and like 20 different ways to say the exact same thing. :D[QUOTE="liquid_sleep"]Nobody is forcing anybody to participate. Why all the negativity?Deyee
Just the idea of the pipedream phenomenon.
Giving $12 a month to some fund that helps children in third world countries when we have plenty of children in the U.S. that could use that.
Angelina Jolie going to Korea and Africa to adopt babies and getting an absolute crap load of press about it when there are plenty of orphans in the U.S.
Actually participating in Folding@Home when the American Cancer Society and World's Sceintists aren't going to find a way to Cure cancer in the first place. Think about it, what's the last disease the human race has cured?
You sir, are awesome!
There are not many people like you. Not to mention how can you cure a mutation? Cancer isnt a virus...
[QUOTE="Deyee"] Think about it, what's the last disease the human race has cured? nosferatuYou really are just ignorant aren't you? Know anybody that's come down with small pox recently? No? That's because it has been cured. The last remaining vestiges of it lie in vials in refrigerators of research labs.
Correct me if im wrong, but didnt smallpox go away because of vaccines? If so, thats not a cure, just a way to teach your body to defend itself against the virus. Cancer isnt a virus, you cant make a vaccine out of that.
[QUOTE="liquid_sleep"]Nobody is forcing anybody to participate. Why all the negativity?Deyee
Just the idea of the pipedream phenomenon.
Giving $12 a month to some fund that helps children in third world countries when we have plenty of children in the U.S. that could use that.
Angelina Jolie going to Korea and Africa to adopt babies and getting an absolute crap load of press about it when there are plenty of orphans in the U.S.
Actually participating in Folding@Home when the American Cancer Society and World's Sceintists aren't going to find a way to Cure cancer in the first place. Think about it, what's the last disease the human race has cured?
Well, money, politics and pharma companies in control of the whole thing. If people wern't so greedy, we'd have better progress.
Angelina is just a joke really. It's like with a few of these stars these days, goto different country, pick what you like, like it's choosing a new toy (and now many of these "saved kids" do these people have?) It's all just PR crap, personally I think she's off her knocker and needs to see a shrink, and grabbing kids all over the world is not going to solve her problem. People with money make me sick...
[QUOTE="Deyee"][QUOTE="Dr-Strangelove"]If you find it useful enough to help with money or time that's great, that's not to say one form of volunteering is any lesser or greater than another.blackldragon
YOU aren't volunteering AT ALL. You're turning a console on and letting it sit there. Is that clear now?
You asked for alternative ways to volunteer and I listed them. I'm sorry none were as easy as believing that a console running is actually "helping the cause". But since you took it as a personal attack that I suggested educating yourself on illnesses running in the family I'll be sure only to respond with who I was talking with earlier.
You are the.... I cant even say what I want to say right know because I will get banned, but saying your not volunteering at all is just stupid you think donating is always so good well there is something called corruption, baka (yes im talking in Japanese look it up) You really think that all donations go to were they say it goes. Sorry if you truly believe that humans dont take exploit this than you are a BONKURA. Trying to say what were doing isn't justified simply because it is a gaming console, was PS3 made solely for gaming no so thats one of your points debunked. SIdes if you wanted just a gaming system get a Wii NO hate intended. Do you feel that money is the only real way to help so if so once again your a BONKURA. Humans are the reasons we have money if it wasn't for us than everything would be free to use. Just because you don't want to try to help don't try and deture people from this. Its people like you who makes me look onto humans with disgust. Honestly, I feel that if we do manage to cure cancer another disease will show up in its place or nature will turn against us, why because this helps keep the population from growing way to large, look at japan. Here's another thing people said we would never reach outer space we got to the moon. People said Afroamericans would always be insignificant to Caucasians look at the progress we made. Even if its only helping a little bit thats just one step closer to there goals. I remember I was walking with a friend, we just got pizza and were walking home, well a poor or homeless guy came up to us and asked of if that was pizza I was like yea. He asked if he could get money for pizza I was going to give him the money when my friend stopped me. I never forgot that time that I could've helped someone. I know he might have just bought drugs or liquor with it but its the thought that counts. So you sir need to get off your high horse because just helping a bit is still helping, sides your sig makes me think of you as a troll but I wont say you are because you don't know me and don't you dare try striking me down because I use logic in everything I do and I will do what ever is possible to prove my point. Your entitled to your own beliefs its when people sound as if there trying to change others into a negative, its fine if they are destroying them selves but doing it because of the simple fact of your ignorance is just wrong. (One of the reasons why I dislike going to church they keep pressuring me to get baptized I refuse because I have my own beliefs should anyone look down on me no. Just like (yes this sounds contridicting to what I said) No one should look down on you. NO ONE IS BETTER THAN ANY OTHER CREATURE ON THIS PLANET. As for the people who are so greenhouse effect I understand your point and I want to know what you are doing about it. If your against it take up action. I'm against tabacco so what am I doing I am getting a bunch of pictures and putting it around my school. If you have a cause get people to join you. One last thing because this is getting long and I know not many people like to read long things, don't bother me on my spelling It's just irritating I know its wrong if you don't understand something P.M. me and I'll explain my views just don't get all English teacher on me. Not my fault that English has the most words of all languages and like 20 different ways to say the exact same thing. :D
You speak of not giving money to organizations because of corruption? Well let me throw a little something out there. Are you sure that Stanford scientists might not be corrupted? For all you know they could be folding proteins to find a way to kill you faster, there ARE some people who believe in reducing the population of the world to half billion, Just ask Ted Turner!
Call me crazy but people really need to quit being spoon fed crap the government and company gives them.
Now when someone askes "What good did you ever do playing your video gmaes all he time?" You can look 'em right in the eye ans say, "Curing Cancer, Jackass!"W3dotCOMExactly...
Has anyone mentioned global warming. In a few years time when the PS3 has sold 100 million units, can you imagine how much this would contribute to damage to the environment.
Seriously though, I don't know how efficient this F@H is. Surely getting proper funded super computers and the like is more efficient.
High_Contrast
Leaving your ps3 on to help a cause can be considered global warming but it is alot better than everything else in the world.
Heck, if you are so focused on global warming and power how come you are using you computer right now to post pointless stuff.
We are beyond the point of stopping global warming. The only thing we can do now is slow it to a very slow pace. Even if humans did not exist global warming would continue to happen until there is another ice age.
Whats going to happen is if we continue our fossil fuel usage, Greenland's Ice will melt halting the north atlantic current becasue water is too cold and less dense due to massive amounts of fresh water. Once the north atlantic current is stopped, warm water from the south will stop flowing north and releasing its warmth into Europe causing an ice age in europe which will eventually expand to the whole world.
Global Warming is happening no matter what anyone says. The debate that is going on today is if we are the ones causing it. The answer is yes and no. Yes becasue we are speeding the process. By driving cars, burning fossil fuels and so on. Now if we didn't exist, the process would be extremely slow but it would still be happening.
Now back to the PS3, F@H in my mind is a great move in the medical section. There is no reason why it should not be used.
Wow, lookit all the replies :shock:
Lastly, only because you seem to hold your volunteering at a hospital over everybody's heads, I have DEVOTED MY LIFE to helping people through a career in medicine.nosferatu
Once again, go back and read all my posts. I volunteer ONCE a YEAR hardly anything remarkable or able to hold over someone's head. What I have a problem with is someone saying, "Yeah, I help with cancer research." when all they are doing is leaving a console powered on with access to the web.
Oh, and you haven't devoted your life buddy. That 17k Gamerscore proves you do things other than medical and scientific research. The Pope DEVOTES his life. You're just in a medical career. And I can honestly say that what I do for work impacts more people around the world (for good AND bad) than what you're doing. Y'know, since you decided to try and get personal.
I've shown this thread to my friend's wife (in the medical field) and she says that you're very good at talking alot and not really saying anything, odd that she and my wife(Veterinarian) say the same thing about Mr. Medical Student eh? Perhaps you'd like me to ask a few doctors what their opinions are?
And to everyone else that's posted. Use Folding @ Home if you want, Just like the PC portion of it PS3 Folding will eventually wane and slow down. I believe there are MUCH better ways to research diseases than protein folding. And I have no problem leaving that to the scientists and doctors of the past, present and future.
Hey, man. Guess what. For computing highly complex operations, I'm afraid this is the best answer short of super computing.If you actually believe that a gaming console or PC is capable of finding a cure for cancer then go ahead.
Personally, I believe that the world's scientists should kick it into high gear instead of trying to figure out how to grow seedless strawberries or preserve wilidlife animals, but then again, that's just my opinion; my PS3 won't be "Folding @ Home".
Deyee
Ironic how you talk about pipedreams and then ask us to funnel money into a giant collective fund that has existed for generations...the mountain of cancer research donations. Excuse me, but the F@H project is more than a little real goodwill. Instead of funding research, you are allowing them to perform research on your tab. I prefer this method greatly. Or I could buy a wristband. Or donate to some black organization I know nothing about. Or I could turn on my PS3 and watch the procedure being carried out on my HDTV. Anyway, I agree with untolddreams. If you're trying to portray yourself as some kind of altruist (and realist, but let's ignore that), stop dissuading people from something they think it a positive towards mankind (when otherwise they might be doing nothing at all), on a videogame forum no less. They've absolutely given us reason to believe that distributed computing is far more efficient than supercomputing.Oh, it's easily put into perspective.
Take your electric bill by itself.
Then take your electric bill with your PS3 running 24 hours a day for a month.
Now, take the difference in money and actually donate it to cancer research.
It's really just that simple, but like I said earlier; if you believe the pipedream feel free to partake.
www.cancer.org/docroot/DON/DON_0.asp
That's odd, nowhere on that website does it say anything of F@H. Hmmm....
www.cancer.org/docroot/par/par_0.asp
Nowhere on that one either.
Deyee
Wow, lookit all the replies :shock:
[QUOTE="nosferatu"]Lastly, only because you seem to hold your volunteering at a hospital over everybody's heads, I have DEVOTED MY LIFE to helping people through a career in medicine.Deyee
Once again, go back and read all my posts. I volunteer ONCE a YEAR hardly anything remarkable or able to hold over someone's head. What I have a problem with is someone saying, "Yeah, I help with cancer research." when all they are doing is leaving a console powered on with access to the web.
Oh, and you haven't devoted your life buddy. That 17k Gamerscore proves you do things other than medical and scientific research. The Pope DEVOTES his life. You're just in a medical career. And I can honestly say that what I do for work impacts more people around the world (for good AND bad) than what you're doing. Y'know, since you decided to try and get personal.
I've shown this thread to my friend's wife (in the medical field) and she says that you're very good at talking alot and not really saying anything, odd that she and my wife(Veterinarian) say the same thing about Mr. Medical Student eh? Perhaps you'd like me to ask a few doctors what their opinions are?
And to everyone else that's posted. Use Folding @ Home if you want, Just like the PC portion of it PS3 Folding will eventually wane and slow down. I believe there are MUCH better ways to research diseases than protein folding. And I have no problem leaving that to the scientists and doctors of the past, present and future.
I signed a ToS agreement saying I have absolutely zero claim to any of the research in this project or any of the information or cures that come about as a result of it. I don't care to have any such claims, and I don't think there is any kind of a reason to believe anyone is making such claims, especially since doing so via legal channels is strictly prohibited.I'd like you to re-read the third line after I quoted you the second time as your entire last post is moot.Deyee
The games in your signature really suck my balls. Do you actually like those games?
Oh, and nobody actually expects to run their PS3 for 20 hours out of every day. If the user does intent to use F@H for an extended period beyond their usual gaming time, then that probably would affect their power bill... but that's so beside the point - what do you care if the power company makes an extra $5 a month? It's not like that money automatically is ripped from the hands of a starving child; maybe it was going to be spent on a pack of cigarettes.
What your failing to recognize is that this is something so simple to do... it's not guaranteed to provide the next great breakthrough in medical research.. however, it is guaranteed to provide at least SOME valuable data for scientists to analyze...after all, PS3 offers about 20x the calculative power of a normal PC for these type of operations. Who is to say that the current F@H research times twenty or even more wont lead to any discovery?
You're just a bitter little pessimist.. Why hate on something like this? It's illogical
"The American Cancer Society is making a difference every day in the lives of people touched by cancer. Your contributions help fund our programs of research, education, advocacy, and service, which are leading us toward our ultimate goal—the elimination of cancer. Every donation counts." Oh, let's see! Your contributions "help" fund research, education, advocacy, and service. Education I could care less about seeing as I could make a case as to why it's more ineffectual than research alone. Advocacy meaning what...advocacy groups, lobbyist groups, buying out senators? What other nonsense? Standing outside Universities and howling about the need for a cure? Yeah right, how about something objective with a definitive result. Service. How....vague. Service, huh. What're they doing, standing at the bedside of those stricken with cancer? Or, I could use my PS3 (or rather "not use" my PS3), which I've already purchased for other reasons, to be used for individual calculations in this project which could reap multiple, untold benefits for humankind. I.E....just research. I'll opt for just research, that way I know precisely where my money is going, and, additionally, I can watch and observe the results on a day-to-day, hour-to-hour basis. Plus, consider the applications of the research after you conclude and combine it with the human genome results. We've practically got a map of the human body from a cellular level. This is a new step for the sciences. Additionally, I don't care what doctors have to say. Doctors are concerned with patients, whereas scientists are concerned with common good and knowledge. Doctors are subjective whereas scientists are the most objective thinkers on the face of the earth. You are financing research. You are not financing drugs. You are not financing an institution. You are not financing a university or an interest group or an advocacy group or any of that BS. You are financing research. My. What. A. Flipping crime.Oh, it's easily put into perspective.
Take your electric bill by itself.
Then take your electric bill with your PS3 running 24 hours a day for a month.
Now, take the difference in money and actually donate it to cancer research.
It's really just that simple, but like I said earlier; if you believe the pipedream feel free to partake.
www.cancer.org/docroot/DON/DON_0.asp
That's odd, nowhere on that website does it say anything of F@H. Hmmm....
www.cancer.org/docroot/par/par_0.asp
Nowhere on that one either.
Deyee
[QUOTE="Deyee"]I'd like you to re-read the third line after I quoted you the second time as your entire last post is moot.Brendruis
The games in your signature really suck my balls. Do you actually like those games?
Oh, and nobody actually expects to run their PS3 for 20 hours out of every day. If the user does intent to use F@H for an extended period beyond their usual gaming time, then that probably would affect their power bill... but that's so beside the point - what do you care if the power company makes an extra $5 a month? It's not like that money automatically is ripped from the hands of a starving child; maybe it was going to be spent on a pack of cigarettes.
What your failing to recognize is that this is something so simple to do... it's not guaranteed to provide the next great breakthrough in medical research.. however, it is guaranteed to provide at least SOME valuable data for scientists to analyze...after all, PS3 offers about 20x the calculative power of a normal PC for these type of operations. Who is to say that the current F@H research times twenty or even more wont lead to any discovery?
You're just a bitter little pessimist.. Why hate on something like this? It's illogical
Currently the addition of the PS3 to the project has only tripled their distributed computing power. Expect that number to rise as installed base and number of willing participants increases, but it will take a great deal of time before the amount contributed by PS3 users reaches the hundreds of thousands of PC users currently using their PCs for the project.
You're just a bitter little pessimist.. Why hate on something like this? It's illogical Brendruis
Because it's fake compassion. It's a program that most early adopters on the PS3 will forfeit when an awesome game and PS Home releases. Think I'm wrong? Give it 2-3 years and see the percentage of PS3 owners that are using F @ H compared to the percentage now. Just as F@H was introduced in 2000 and all the PC bandwagon jumped on board, and look at it now. Less than 200,000 PCs AROUND THE WORLD are may be active.
As for my games collection and it's suckage *shrug* My gamertag was taken on XBL, so I made a new one and played through a couple old games I traded in a WAYs back cause some co-workers still had them. Most Wanted easy 1000 points. PGR 3 is actually fun to me. Enchanted Arms the wife accidently signed into my account, but the 360 still thought that I played it(notice the 0%). Lost Planet is fun to me, especially online. Gears of War was good as was TDU. I'm playing Supreme Commander, CS: Source, and STALKER on PC now, waiting till May to pick up Forza 2. I'll be borrowing Dead Rising from a friend when I finish having fun with LP Multiplayer. Though the significance in this thread? I dunno.
[QUOTE="Brendruis"]You're just a bitter little pessimist.. Why hate on something like this? It's illogical Deyee
Because it's fake compassion. It's a program that most early adopters on the PS3 will forfeit when an awesome game and PS Home releases. Think I'm wrong? Give it 2-3 years and see the percentage of PS3 owners that are using F @ H compared to the percentage now. Just as F@H was introduced in 2000 and all the PC bandwagon jumped on board, and look at it now. Less than 200,000 PCs AROUND THE WORLD are may be active.
That is an awful arguement. You are going against this becasue in 2-3 years it will be only a low user percentage?Even if that happens, that is 2-3 years where alot of things can happen.
Them being able to do this work (them i mean scientists) can make them better understand protein creation and so on. This in the long run can help solve thousands of diseases. Its like when chemists and biologists decoded the human genome. It makes people understand more eventually leading to a cure.
LoL that's blasphemy around here, buddy. You love Forza? Puhleeze Brendruis
Oh, you mean GT4 was better? How'd you put it? "Puhleeze" :lol:
I played GT4 for a week and got tired of the screen glitches and it's weak gameplay(compared to GT3 which is a good game). I was too busy having a ball with Forza on XBL.
Hopefully, Polyphony will get it right with GT5.
[QUOTE="KoolEmpty"][QUOTE="blacktorn"]It's a myth anyway...don't worry about it. uh oh. Don't get another debate started.You might help cancer but you sure aren't helping global warming, Folding@Home uses up the Cell processor completely and as a result the power consumption is going to be high.
So Don't bother to help 'cure' cancer and help global warming instead.
jnhay
The electricity you get from most electric companies aren't as harmful to the environment as Cars do. That's why Electric Cars, that run off the Power Grid are considered more green. The Tesla Roadster, the electric sports car, says that by charging your car 8 hours a day, you'll be using 0.01% of what the average gas guzzaling car on the road does. Remember they're not buying Gas, like cars are. Most of the power in the USA is done by Hydro (water) reactors like Hoover Dam. Though Nuclear Reactors are cleaner unless they blow-up. Damn Chernobyl ruined everything.
Another major factor is deforestation. Basically we've cut down all the trees that would've sucked up all the Carbon-Dioxide released by cars. So plant a tree, it'll help. So if you want to help stop buying food from Mcdonald's since what they do is cut down trees in the Amazon, clear the land there and herd cows to slaughter them for cheap burgers.
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