Do you think the US needs to import liberals from Europe?

Indeed, most countries in the world have a variety of ethnic groups each with distinct cultures present within their populations.

That's a good point you make there, they certainly do. Even more recently than that, our grandparents' culture would have been quite different from what we consider to be our own present day culture, and it will continue to evolve regardless of whether or not some people think they can 'preserve' it.

Ethno-nationalists are living in denial for the most part. Like you say they seem completely oblivious to the fact that we're living in a capitalist, globalised world now, and that won't be changing anytime soon. You can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend that reality isn't reality, this ain't the Matrix. If anything, American culture has transformed European culture over the past century to a greater extent than any cultural influence via immigration. And yet these 'preserve our culture' people don't ever seem to mention that, they seem awfully selective when it comes to preserving European culture.

I have a similar outlook to you I guess. Rather than looking back on the 40's or 50's with rose-tinted glasses, I'm happy living in the here and now. We have better quality of life in 2019 than ever before, and globalisation (yes, including immigration) contributes to that.

I don't think my point about the cultural diversity of Europe necessarily strengthens your point. Wars have been waged in Europe for thousands of years for numerous reasons - sometimes to preserve a nation's identity and sometimes to extinguish another nation's identity. Terrible atrocities have also been committed in the name of preserving culture. Anyway, there are many nations in the present day thanks to the dissolution of several empires. Europe is incredibly diverse, there's something like 80-90 distinct ethnic groups spread across the continent.

As to international migration, this has been happening for quite a long time now. You're aware of the colonial empires many leading European powers operated throughout the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century right? People have moved here from colonies in basically every other habitable continent in the world. This was a particularly big thing shortly after WW2.

Well first of all communist EU? Let's be serious here dude. Anyway, I don't believe that it only serves the highest ranking nations, if that were the case then many of the countries which you may think are losing out would simply leave. Rather, they don't because it's a mutually beneficial organisation to be a member of. If anything, the smaller nations have a much greater voice relative to their size within the EU than they would ever have outside of it.

Okay so you're anti-immigration in general, I see. And hey, I apologise for that assertion about skin colour. That was a baseless assumption on my part, and I realise I came across as a bit of an arsehole there so sorry.

Hmm, I do? And a walled off multi million dollar complex?! Woah... not quite lol. I have a flat in Cardiff, which is pretty diverse as far as Welsh towns and cities go. Guess I'm just a sucker for globalisation, would rather have Mexican, Indian, Chinese, Turkish, Vietnamese or Moroccan rather than being stuck with fish and chips or rarebit every time. If anything, it's usually the people out in the little towns having no personal interaction with immigrants who are scared of them.

You keep saying I don't know how the world works, but I think we are living in different worlds dude. And yes you're right religion can be an area of tension, I never said immigration was frictionless. However, most European countries are trending towards atheism or non-religious now, and basically all of them are secular governments. Why wouldn't anyone be able to live alongside people of different faiths? I think you're placing a bigger emphasis on religion than how much importance it actually has in most people's lives here in Europe these days. Well I guess we differ in that regard too then. I respect their right to practice it in my country, and the thought of someone praying to God, Allah, Buddha or Satan doesn't keep me up at night.

Relax, I'm only pulling your leg. Maybe you are a cool Canadian, I don't know you personally. No loyalty to my nation or people? Hmm, well I'm not an ethno-nationalist no, that's true.

That is true, in Sweden we used to have a "traditional" fika with certain treats, however, no one really does that anymore. And it is entirely due to changes in way of life, and capitalism finding better ways. I believe an idea that only holds up because it is "traditional" is an idea that deserves to be weeded out and exterminated, even if it is a part of our "culture". Cultures are extremely plastic, and there is little need to get nostalgic about old, obsolete ideas.

They are indeed delusional which is why it is so worrysome to see this as a movement growing in the right. A tumor that ought to be purged, much like the SJWs in the left. "Fika" died because going to starbucks was cheaper, faster, more convenient, which is compatitable with the competitive world economy. Not because brown people (or was it eastern europeans 30 years ago) decided to live here. The overwhelming majority of ethnonationalists I have seen have difficulties with basic graph reading, reading comprehension, and a lot of other stuff. So I assume most of them are pretty damn young.

We have a higher standard of living. Every credible economist I know of argues that globalization (which includes immigration) is a net gain to the standards of living and quality of life. No one is denying that there are no frictions with immigration. But I would argue that the small increase of crime has been made up for by economic prosperity. Instead of shouting, keep them out, build a wall or some similar gibberish, how about we find solutions to best tackle the issue of immigration as well as we can. The immigrants will come wether you like it or not, best solution now is to find the best way to make sure everone has a good time, and mitigate the bad stuff.

To me, globalization, has given us more economic opportunities, more choice, and more room to specialize. While it is true some people have had jobs shipped overseas, the fact of the matter is that most of those jobs would be automated anyways. And the cheaper goods leads to utilitarian gains.

@Maroxad: The primary problem with globalization is simply that we've mismanaged it/failed to account for it's affects. That's not an issue inherent to gobalization itself, but it often appears to be from certain frames of reference.

@mandzilla:

I don't think my point about the cultural diversity of Europe necessarily strengthens your point. Wars have been waged in Europe for thousands of years for numerous reasons - sometimes to preserve a nation's identity and sometimes to extinguish another nation's identity. Terrible atrocities have also been committed in the name of preserving culture. Anyway, there are many nations in the present day thanks to the dissolution of several empires. Europe is incredibly diverse, there's something like 80-90 distinct ethnic groups spread across the continent.

Again you are furthering my point. Europe is incredibly diverse, among Europeans. They have waged war for all of recorded histories as the reasons you have mentioned. To preserve culture. Europeans are similar in culture vs. Europeans/Asians or Europeans?Africans. Since this is the case, why do we STILL wage war? It is BECAUSE of CULTURAL/ETHNIC differences. If everyone could just get along, there would not be so much diversity in one continent....

As to international migration, this has been happening for quite a long time now. You're aware of the colonial empires many leading European powers operated throughout the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century right? People have moved here from colonies in basically every other habitable continent in the world. This was a particularly big thing shortly after WW2.

International migration during colonial era is not equivalent to migration of today. Britain was not importing Africans/Asians (unless they were slaves) to their colonies, it was Brits.

Well first of all communist EU? Let's be serious here dude. Anyway, I don't believe that it only serves the highest ranking nations, if that were the case then many of the countries which you may think are losing out would simply leave. Rather, they don't because it's a mutually beneficial organisation to be a member of. If anything, the smaller nations have a much greater voice relative to their size within the EU than they would ever have outside of it.

I am being serious. EU is as communist as the Soviet Union was. It is not mutually beneficial. EU decides what nations import/export, and what they produce. It controls production of a nation. I have traveled through many European nations that are apart of it, and the negative impact is there. Jobs are exported, cost of living goes up. Purchasing Power goes down. Poverty rates increase. What voice are you referring to? The EU openly states it is against nationalistic views and wants to focus on a global scale... Which clearly is not working. **** the EU.

Okay so you're anti-immigration in general, I see. And hey, I apologise for that assertion about skin colour. That was a baseless assumption on my part, and I realise I came across as a bit of an arsehole there so sorry.

All good, its just words.

Hmm, I do? And a walled off multi million dollar complex?! Woah... not quite lol. I have a flat in Cardiff, which is pretty diverse as far as Welsh towns and cities go. Guess I'm just a sucker for globalisation, would rather have Mexican, Indian, Chinese, Turkish, Vietnamese or Moroccan rather than being stuck with fish and chips or rarebit every time. If anything, it's usually the people out in the little towns having no personal interaction with immigrants who are scared of them.

I have seen this argument so many times, it is absolutely nonsensical. To enjoy food from another culture, you need to import the entire culture. Go look up a recipe or something. There's a reason they are scared of them.

You keep saying I don't know how the world works, but I think we are living in different worlds dude. And yes you're right religion can be an area of tension, I never said immigration was frictionless. However, most European countries are trending towards atheism or non-religious now, and basically all of them are secular governments. Why wouldn't anyone be able to live alongside people of different faiths? I think you're placing a bigger emphasis on religion than how much importance it actually has in most people's lives here in Europe these days. Well I guess we differ in that regard too then. I respect their right to practice it in my country, and the thought of someone praying to God, Allah, Buddha or Satan doesn't keep me up at night.

You don't. You are downplaying how much of an impact religion has on an individual/societal level. Its unfortunate Atheism/non-religion is growing, as their is a massive explosion of moral decay, but that is another topic. It does not matter what Europeans believe, but the people they are letting in. They believe in a different religion, and have a completely different culture. As their population grows, so will their influence on society. Pretty simple concept to grasp. Does not keep me up at night what religion they follow either. I respect their right to practice it, just not in my country. Go home and build your own nation.

Relax, I'm only pulling your leg. Maybe you are a cool Canadian, I don't know you personally. No loyalty to my nation or people? Hmm, well I'm not an ethno-nationalist no, that's true.

I'm cool, its a discussion with words, no one gets hurt. You don't have loyalty to your people or your nation. You have stated yourself you are willing to important other cultures just for sake of different food. That is a selfish act, and demonstrates no loyalty.

@Maroxad:

They are indeed delusional which is why it is so worrysome to see this as a movement growing in the right. A tumor that ought to be purged, much like the SJWs in the left. "Fika" died because going to starbucks was cheaper, faster, more convenient, which is compatitable with the competitive world economy. Not because brown people (or was it eastern europeans 30 years ago) decided to live here. The overwhelming majority of ethnonationalists I have seen have difficulties with basic graph reading, reading comprehension, and a lot of other stuff. So I assume most of them are pretty damn young.

I cannot wait until people like you try to purge people like me :) It will be an awesome but short-lived attempt XD
A tradition that was passed on from generations was destroyed because of a convenient corporate coffee that saved you a few bucks. Well done bud, you sure cherish your ancestors.

We have a higher standard of living. Every credible economist I know of argues that globalization (which includes immigration) is a net gain to the standards of living and quality of life. No one is denying that there are no frictions with immigration. But I would argue that the small increase of crime has been made up for by economic prosperity. Instead of shouting, keep them out, build a wall or some similar gibberish, how about we find solutions to best tackle the issue of immigration as well as we can. The immigrants will come wether you like it or not, best solution now is to find the best way to make sure everone has a good time, and mitigate the bad stuff.

Lmao. What is your level of standard of living. Because we can live old while being drugged up? You enjoy that bud. People are working more, the middle class is disappearing, and CPI/PP is getting worse and worse. It is factually wrong to say it has gotten better. Globalization has ruined many nations, including mine. No I will continue to advocate for the removal of non europeans in countries such as Canada and America, and support etho-nations. they are the only way to go.

LOLOL just like socialism and communism every time right? Delusional mindset

Yeah, that is a good point. People need to learn to differentiate between inherent flaws and flaws in execution. We could have done a hell lot better to adjust to globalization.

Execution is really important in politics. It is why I dont think that just having the right policies is a good thing, you also need to be able to account/adjust for them properly. Have the underlying infrastructure and whatnot.

@nattydaddy604:

Again you are furthering my point. Europe is incredibly diverse, among Europeans. They have waged war for all of recorded histories as the reasons you have mentioned. To preserve culture. Europeans are similar in culture vs. Europeans/Asians or Europeans?Africans. Since this is the case, why do we STILL wage war? It is BECAUSE of CULTURAL/ETHNIC differences. If everyone could just get along, there would not be so much diversity in one continent.

Among all the peoples living across the continent yes. Also, I feel like you're simplifying things when you say that the wars waged throughout European history have all been driven by a need to preserve culture, this isn't the case. Europeans differ from American/Asian/African nations (which are themselves incredibly diverse) culturally sure, but then European countries are not always similar in culture themselves. Even when you look at an individual European nation there's often a mixture of cultures present. Which specific European cultures do you wish to preserve?

Who's still waging wars in Europe though? There aren't any major conflicts happening as far as I know, save for the Russian invasion of Ukraine. That wasn't caused by cultural or ethnic differences however, but rather Putin's desire to grab strategic Ukrainian territory. Europeans do get along pretty well these days for the most part, if we weren't capable of doing so then the EU wouldn't even be a thing. Furthermore, wars were more common in the past compared to nowadays when there were LESS nations due to empires. Diversity does not inevitably lead to conflict.

International migration during colonial era is not equivalent to migration of today. Britain was not importing Africans/Asians (unless they were slaves) to their colonies, it was Brits.

Globalisation was not at the scale back then that it is in the present day, of course it's more prevalent in the 21st century than the 19th or 20th. There was still a major migration period after WW2 from various European colonies to offset the devastation caused by the war. Migration helped many nations get back on their feet.

I am being serious. EU is as communist as the Soviet Union was. It is not mutually beneficial. EU decides what nations import/export, and what they produce. It controls production of a nation. I have traveled through many European nations that are apart of it, and the negative impact is there. Jobs are exported, cost of living goes up. Purchasing Power goes down. Poverty rates increase. What voice are you referring to? The EU openly states it is against nationalistic views and wants to focus on a global scale... Which clearly is not working. **** the EU.

No, that's a false equivalence. Besides the fact that it's not a centralised communist state, if it was in anyway comparable to the Soviet Union then member states wouldn't be free to leave whenever they wish, except they are. The reason why they stay within the EU is because it IS mutually beneficial. Germany, Poland, Greece, Ireland, Lithuania etc have far better means to compete against major economic powers such as the USA, China or Japan collectively as a group than they ever would by going it alone.

Moreover, the EU doesn't decide what is imported or exported by anyone, and it certainly doesn't control the production... that's left up to the individual nations to decide. They do share common import tariffs, regulations and economic policy however. In the event of a trade war, import tariffs and economic strategy are commonly agreed upon by all member states.

Well you seem strongly opposed to the EU yourself, however the majority of people living here view it favourably so don't expect it to disappear anytime soon. Are there issues within the organisation which need to be addressed and ironed out? Of course, I never said that the EU was perfect.

On the other hand, thanks to the EU at least there are economic, environmental and health standards and regulations which must be met by external countries when exporting to Europe, member states can challenge powerful companies such as Amazon, Google or Facebook if they breach that country's laws, and trade deals are only signed if they are mutually beneficial to all members of the bloc. That's what I mean by smaller countries having a larger voice.

The EU is an economic and political union, of course it wants to focus on the global scale. If any EU nation decides they prefer take a more nationalistic approach and go solo then they are welcome to do so, and good luck to them.

All good, its just words.

Okay, cool.

I have seen this argument so many times, it is absolutely nonsensical. To enjoy food from another culture, you need to import the entire culture. Go look up a recipe or something. There's a reason they are scared of them.

The food was simply an example, I enjoy many aspects of different cultures. Variety is the spice of life after all. I'm happy that people decide they'd like to come and try to make a life for themselves in my country, in spite of the shitty weather. Yeah there is a reason you're right, it's called ignorance and living a sheltered life.

You don't. You are downplaying how much of an impact religion has on an individual/societal level. Its unfortunate Atheism/non-religion is growing, as their is a massive explosion of moral decay, but that is another topic. It does not matter what Europeans believe, but the people they are letting in. They believe in a different religion, and have a completely different culture. As their population grows, so will their influence on society. Pretty simple concept to grasp. Does not keep me up at night what religion they follow either. I respect their right to practice it, just not in my country. Go home and build your own nation.

No U. Again, religion has a minimal impact within a secular society. Doesn't matter what religion we are talking about, laws aren't influenced by holy men in Europe anymore. The whole separation of church and state thing you know. Unfortunate in your opinion, but the decline of religion means little to me as I previously mentioned. As long as people's beliefs are still respected and they are free to practice them then cool. Massive explosion of moral decay due to atheism? Lol c'mon now, you don't need religion to lead a moral life.

Where has that happened exactly? First generation migrants do frequently have a difficult time adjusting to life within a new country, that's true. The second and certainly third generations typically have no issues with assimilation on the other hand, also a pretty simple concept. Kinda funny how you live in one of the most diverse countries in the world, with a history of positive migration and yet you hold such views. Guess you're swimming against the tide over there in Canada.

I'm cool, its a discussion with words, no one gets hurt. You don't have loyalty to your people or your nation. You have stated yourself you are willing to important other cultures just for sake of different food. That is a selfish act, and demonstrates no loyalty.

With all due respect dude, you and I have very different ideas when it comes to nationality and migration. First of all, I don't import anything. People aren't imported, they choose to move here. If somebody is born in this country then in my eyes they're British, just as anyone born in Canada is Canadian. Loyalty is not determined by hating migrants or different cultures.

I had a tikka masala earlier, so selfish but so delicious.

Hey, nothing wrong with culture adapting along with the times. You can respect traditions while still taking advantage of the benefits globalisation offers up. Ultimately, a lot of traditional aspects of our cultures will eventually go by the wayside in the face of increasing globalisation, modernisation and global trends, but then this has been happening for a long time now.

Yeah it seems like more and more people are being drawn to the extreme on both sides of the political spectrum these days, though perhaps it's just a case of the most radical elements being the loudest. Many who seem to hate immigration in fact probably have a big problem with globalisation, though they don't address this too often in my experience. It's not so much the arrival of relatively small numbers of immigrants which is transforming traditional culture, but rather the internet, the exchange of foreign products, global cultural trends and the material influence of living in a capitalist world.

Maybe people are less family oriented and have different priorities in life now compared to say 50 years ago. That's not due to moral decay of traditional culture, but more likely the fact that social mobility is greater than ever before and many understandably want to focus on their careers before starting a family.

Indeed, standards of living are at an all time high for westerners. This is what attracts migrants to a country, the desire to make a better life for themselves, not some conspiracy to replace the natives with their own culture. The fact is the vast majority assimilate just fine, while the scare stories you often hear about are the result of failed assimilation. Like you say, immigration has its frictions but at the same time is going to continue to be a part of globalisation. Who knows, perhaps in the future it will be Europeans migrating to the Far East or South America. In any case of immigration, the assimilation process is key to make things go as seamlessly as possible. It's no surprise that there end up being divisions when you have constant fear mongering and the 'us vs them' mentality.

Globalisation is not without its hiccups or flaws of course. Like you pointed out with the fika example some traditions can be swept away by more competitive alternatives, and jobs can at times be outsourced. There's a myriad of pros and cons to globalisation really depending on whether it's considered from a developed or developing country's perspective, or one with dominant global brands, trade imbalances, environmental considerations etc.

At the same time of course, the potential opportunities provided at home or abroad, more affordable consumer goods, increased standards of living and the escape from poverty for millions of people across the world are just some examples of the merits of globalisation.

Indeed. We have our traditions we still do respect, we still celebrate the same celebrations as our ancestors. In many cases, globalization, capitalism and traditions can augment one another. But when old traditions die, new traditions will be born, that is how it worked before, that is how it will work in the future. Personally I would rather not have ideas survive simply because they are traditional, I want ideas to survive because they are useful. The old version of Fika stopped being useful, so it was weeded out by natural selection.

Internet is a key part in radicalizing youth. We humans are inherently intellectually lazy, and often look for the easy feel good answers, even to complex issues. Oversimplification tends to lead to black and white thinking, and those willing to push for a certain agenda will often oversimplify as it is the best way to get a message come across. As people start to join groups with those they agree with, who confirm their biases, they start forming echo chambers. All feeding for and pushing the same narrative, while getting one's views enforced, but never challenged. All feeding into eachother's confirmation bias, in a cesspit of convenient half-truths. The internet has made all this very easy to find linkminded people to find echochambers with.

Up until the Apple II only the wealthy could afford a computer. Nowadays everyone has access to a computer infinitely more powerful than the computers of old in the convenience of their pockets. Meanwhile societies are getting increasingly peaceful, laws more egalitarian, life expectancies increasing, poverty decreasing. Yes not everything is better. But overall, this is the best time to be alive. Did you know Literacy rates are now at 85% worldwide? That is absolutely incredible!