France back to deciding between electing a fascist leader or not. Again?! Right now?!

Seen this story circulating around sites, The Putin Fangirl Who Could Screw Us All. It's about the fascist Marine Le Pen that ran against Emmanuel Macron years back are now facing off on another election just weeks away and she's polling recently suggesting she could get 49% of the vote. Would be shocking any time but just seems so shocking now with the war in Ukraine going on and her past stances praising Putin and saying she'd lift sanctions against Russia, and calling the ongoing war crimes "alleged", all at a time where this war in Ukraine has brought the NATO alliance together and stressed the importance of democracies taking a stance against autocratic regimes. Baffles me. What's going on over there compelling this?

I would imagine in the last decade events like Brexit and Trump getting elected would have been sobering moments about people getting carried away with Russian troll farm fed social media campaigns leading to regrettable protest votes. So what's feeding it now? At a time like this?

Trump was a sign of the west moving towards fascism, not a turning point away from it. The far right is winning the communication war, mostly following Putin's playbook, and until moderates figure how to disarm that we might be moving towards very dark moments again.

The far right messaging is really good. It does a really good job capitalizing on emotions, especially fear, to have things their way. Many leaders flat out having their own cult of personality.

I would have hoped the failures of Brexit and the Brexit party would have made this obvious, but alas.

Edit: As for france, inflation and especially fuel costs. Their leader Macron has been especially unpopular.

Can't wait for the Vichy to rule France again.

This is why centrist politics are such dogshit, they don't solve any problems, and then the most reactionary, ultra-nationalistic psychos roll in to cash in on people's anger.

putin play book. just a re badge of the goebbels one.

Looks like the idiots all over the world are blaming their local governments for global issues.

I still maintain that we are witnessing the death throes of the modern far right (and as a result, they are violent and loud), but I admit this has me maybe reconsidering that.

This shit has gone on long enough. Time for the world to move on. I don't want to live in an era where we slowly decline towards an outright 21st century dictator at the head of every Western nation.

The thing that really concerns me is all the young people that buy into it, or at least the younger politicians that use it to great effect. I've always though of it as something mostly the old timers subscribe to, but these days we got a lot of politicians that could do a lot of harm if they serve as long as Mitch McConnell.

What do you mean?

I am sure the spike in fuel costs seen across the globe following the opening up after COVID and the War in Ukraine are due to taxation. :P

Voting for Macrons opposition isn't facism. Just means Macron has become less popular in France if his opposition is polling higher. What a hyperbolic thread title lol

Is the rebranding of her party and herself temporarily or permanent?

For our European forum goers, isn't France's politics typically rather... unpredictable/volatile?

France is typically very much in opposition to who they have currently elected.

This argument doesnt hold much water. There are far more parties than just Macron's and Le Pen's.

Seems unlikely. In two round voting, predicting the second round when the first round hasn't happened isn't very reliable. This is particularly true when there are a large number of candidates. Seven parties in this case. I doubt that many voters on the centre to left (greens, socialists, social-democrats) are going to migrate to Le Pen on a second vote. Especially since the Nazi's under Zemmour will go to Le Pen which will cause the middle and left to be nervous.

My read is that this has been a long sleep walk with little public engagement that will get real next week for round 2. Everything I have read has voters largely disengaged and complaining about a lack of vision from anyone. So I don't think much of the poll for round 2 as it is really just a reflection of current apathy. Voter turnout will be an important driver for both rounds.

That fails to disprove his statement. The US has dozens of parties. Generally the control over information dictates who makes it out of the primaries for the biggest two and you either hate one candidate or the other and your only chance of not getting the one you hate most is to cast your vote for whomever has the best chance at defeating them. The truth about democracy is that rarely there is a much better choice and it almost always devolves into voting for who you think has the best chance to defeat your least preferred from winning.

If people are so displeased with Macron they're voting for Penne who is the most likely to defeat him, that's not fascism. That's democracy as you know it. Maybe France should suspend the election and declare Macron president-for-life so you won't have to risk someone you disagree with getting into power.

I don't think you understand how french elections work...

And the difference is, France has multiple rounds of voting, which results in multiple viable parties. Since it de-emphasizes strategic voting... somewhat. Due to their nature, earlier rounds have far less strategic voting going on, before parties are being eliminated.

France has 4 major parties: The Republicans (center right), En Marche (Macron), Socialists (center left), and National Rally (far right). The fact that National Rally is usurping the republicans should be pretty concerning.

I know exactly how elections work. You clearly don't as you're pitching the ideal and not the reality. Multiple parties means squat. Multiple rounds mean squat. Support goes to whomever the people displeased with the current leadership thinks has the best chance to defeat him, through multiple rounds, through multiple parties. Penne may win. Calling her a fascist, or those who support her as being fascists is nothing but derogatory and divisive.

Someone you don't like might win. Welcome to the real world.

The French do have this tendency to turn fascist before surrendering to fascists.

Your post above contradicts your assertion. You clearly do not understand french elections, nor European politics. I call Le Pen a fascist because of her party's history, as well as Le Pen herself. While she is trying to move away from the fascist image her father had, she is still deeply rooted in some absolutely horrible ideas.

Hate to break it to you, but most democratic nations do not fall into 2 party systems. France, has multiple major parties (read viable). Hell the last 3 presidents all came from 3 different parties. If Le Pen wins, that will be last 4 presidents from 4 different parties.

Also, Penne, seriously?!? Can't even spell her name right. Put some damn effort in researching before you post, Mr.

1. Vaccines are a Placebo
2. The COVID Vaccines are not Vaccines
3. Obesity is not a problem

@Maroxad: I do love penne with cheese and I'm no fascist. So he does have a point.

Hopefully voters are smart and still avoid Putin apologist LePen at this time given what Moscow wants to do with Kyiv.

Unfortunately, the mental illness that is right wing conservatism isn't exclusive to the United States.

It's scary to see how easily people are swayed.

I couldn't give a shit how her name is spelled. Nor does the last bit of your message make sense. You, and people like you have a habit of calling pretty much anything right of far left a "fascist." It's old, it's tiring, it shows a complete lack of intelligence and political divisiveness above reality. I doubt you can even accurately describe what a fascist even is without a definition that wouldn't also describe Macron, and pretty much anyone in power. I get it, you don't like her, her politics, or the people who support her. But if the French people vote for her, tough shit. What should France do about it?

Citizens in France have a far better understanding of the politics in France than you do. So, if they want her, and they elect her, what business is it of yours?

Except La Pen like Trump isn't a Fascist. I swear the left bitches about fear mongering but they certainly love to do it. Don't like the shitty job we have done? Well your alternative is basically Hitler so you better stick with us. That's Essentially the lefts argument all across the globe now.

The fact that you can't spell her name implies you dont have much investment or care particularly much about this topic. Which is why I brought up your hilarious spelling mistake. That alone would be fallacious, but the fact is, you completely show a poor understanding of the french electoral system as well.

A fascist is someone who is ultranationalistic with a support for a strong support for a regimented society with strong suppression of political opposition. The last part doesnt fit Le Pen all that well (yet at least), which is why I prefer to call her a para-fascist, who don't really go to quite the same lengths as an actual fascist.

Whether you like it or not, the french people have far more moderate right leaning choices than Le Pen to go with. Yet they take the most extreme viable option.

Hyperbolic expression isn't exclusive to the left though, it's a common sort regardless of the party. So many memes though come from the left's hilarious outbursts.

Because I'm not French, it's their choice who they elect, not mine, not yours. Imagine that... French people electing someone who puts the interests of French people first. They must be crazy to want such a thing. They should totally put your interests above their own, and elect someone you've decided isn't a fascist.

Much like US politics, you miss the mark on French.

Riiiiiiiight. You people are calling anybody who isn't part of your ideological delusions a fascist, and you think I'm the one missing the mark.

Do you even know for which purpose a "democracy" or elected government is supposed to exist?

Here is the definition of fascism, since you people like to try to apply it to everyone you don't like.

fascism

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Log In fas·​cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \

Definition of fascism

1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Nation over the individual, very similar to statism. A centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, with severe economic and social regimentation and forcible suppression of opposition. Nothing you said about Le Pen seems to fit that description. Trump didn't fit that description. Lobbying government to do what is best for their own country, or the people of that country over the interests of other countries is not the same thing as putting the nation above the individual.

In other words, exactly what I defined.

"that exalts nation and often race above the individual"

Ultranationalism, what exactly do you think Le Pen and her party's ideology is?

"severe economic and social regimentation"

I am sure, the muslims in France will have a wonderful time if she gets elected. What exactly do you think she is running on?

"that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader"

Heavily implied by the above. In order to make Ultranationalism "work", you need a strong government lead by a strong(wo)man.

Thankfully she hasnt tried to usurp the government yet.

"forcible suppression of opposition"

This is where she doesn't hit the mark, but who knows what happens if she gets into power.

Edit: Whether you like it or not, you described exactly why we call her a para-fascist. She is not quite a fascist. But parafascist describes her and her party's actions and ideals well.

You don't have to be particularly invested in French elections, to know the basics on how their electorate system works, or how to spell their politician's names. What you described would have failed you high school civics class, at least where I grew up. Merely knowing your own country's electoral system isn't good enough, you have to know how all sorts of different countries are run.

And why are you acting like we are trying to get the french to vote in one way or another? Merely commenting on another nation's politics doesn't mean we are trying to influence and change it. It is called having a discussion. Even if it doesnt affect us directly, we like discussing topics that interest us.

And I repeat myself, and the point you clearly missed. You are trying to refute people, on topics you clearly have no knowledge at hand. This is why we call you a contrarian. You are holding opposing views for the sake of having opposing views.

If you are wondering what those 3 points were, they are arguments you have made in the past, where it is abundantly clear you enter discussions without even the dimmest understanding of what you are arguing against.

Merely commenting? You're spreading derogatory and inflammatory rumors about the candidate, and by extension, the people who support that candidate. That's the problem here. This isn't contrarian, it's calling you out on your bullshit, and the bullshit of everyone else who throws around the term "fascist" whenever someone comes around that you don't like. Now you're whining because my views oppose yours? When your views have a modicum of reality behind them, then maybe I won't.

And of those three points, number 1 is out of context, number 2 is fact, and number 3 is entirely fabricated. Not that I'd expect more accusing someone of being a fascist, and those who support them of supporting fascism without any reality to actually base that upon. Honestly, I think it's a lack of vocabulary. At this point, I'm not sure you people have a vocabulary that extends beyond ists and isms when it comes to people with opposing viewpoints.

Your definition of fascism doesn't even fit. You had to come up with your own umbrella you could fit people like LePen under, and then used YOUR definition of it to try to lend credibility to those accusations. It's pathetic.

The definition of fascism I used was effectively the same, the only difference is that it wasnt I didnt include the authoritarian bit, since that should be obvious considering the other points.

And nobody is taking issue with the French Republicans, whom we also disagree with. The issue is with Le Pen and her party. Nobody here is concerned with the other parties, Le Pen's party is being the topic of concern here for a damn good reason.

And no, all 3 of your examples of you entering discussions are you clearly unfamiliar with are accurate. Please tell me how it was taken out of context, and how this quote of yours is fabricated,

... starting a thread posing a question,pretending there are issues with lack of exercise, ...

The internet does not forget.

You'd have better success banging your head against the wall. His account exists solely to fulfill one role only and it's not conversation.

Le Pen and Trump are cut from the same cloth, same as many right wing politicians. Don't let any of the usuals try and weasel their way out of the fascist label that they've pinned on themselves.

Don't want to be called a fascist? Change your ideology and rhetoric, simple enough. At this point it may be splitting hairs though. Le Pen and Trump need to be left in the dust bin where they deservedly belong.

Pretty much, I liketo use the term parafascist here for that reason. To be a lot less hair splittery.

If these people rejected Trump and Le Pen in the same way we reject Rodrigo Duterte, that would be great. If not, if they would actually have the courage to own up to something, for once.

@HoolaHoopMan: The nuance is that Putin like fascists always have a layer of plausible deniability. You "can't" call them dictators because they have contaminated the political and judicial system in a way they can't lose, but those systems are still in place. Trump and the gop seem to be trying to achieve something similar.

As for Le "Penne", she's openly financed by Putin and have been very defensive towards Russian war crimes. Maybe there should be a new term but fascist suítes her well.

A lot of people throwing around the word "fascist" in here, and all of you sound ridiculous who do.

Trump was a lot of things, but fascist wasn't one of them. We need to stop using superlatives to describe certain leaders because you feel that way.

The way fascist is being thrown around, then what, anyone on the left is going to be called a Marxist because they like universal healthcare?

There's been a movement in Europe towards leaders who seem more nationalistic first, European union second. It's been happening across the board and it's as simple as that. Macron has been criticized for being more of a globalist than being concerned about France first - at least that's the optics to those who oppose him.

How so? They might be in a position where, even if they win, that the state can not become fascist over night, but one can judge from what the party and leader supports.

I actually agree with this.

Trump is a pathological liar, narcissist, and egoist.

But you can't really classify him into any political characterization because he has no coherent policy, no obvious set of principles other than everything is about him, and everything is made up off the cuff and subject to immediate revision if he doesn't like the media playback.

He's like a 3 year old in perpetual tantrum. That feeds well into an authoritarian narrative, but it is doubtful that he can spell authoritarian let alone fascist.

The fact that he panders to fascists and wannabees is nothing more than convenience and his desire for idolatry from whomever will give it to him. That could be some QAnon loser or Kim Jong-un.

In a slightly altered time and circumstance he could have run as a Democrat. Earlier in life there was speculation that he might do just that. But a man with nothing but ego, picks and chooses based solely upon the opportunity path...which in his space/time continuum was a relatively open field on the Republican side.

No, the definition of fascist you used was essentially nationalist. An umbrella encompassing anyone who puts the interests of their nation above those of others. You would likely try to describe Brexit as fascist, when it wasn't. You made up a definition to fit the situation rather than admitting you were wrong to use it.

You do understand that the reason elections exist, why democracy was thought up thousands of years ago in the first place was so that people could achieve a form of government that represented them, and their interests, right? But whenever people support or elects someone that puts their nations interests above those of other nations or international unions, you're going to call them a fascist now? Get a larger vocabulary.

Well given Trump wasn't a fascist either, their ideology and/or rhetoric is irrelevant. In fact talking out your ass about fascism as people in your social circle typically do, that's the kind of shit that makes your ideology look that much more insane and divisive, and pushes people towards voting for people like Trump and LePen. Calling everyone you disagree with a fascist doesn't push people away from them, it pushes them away from people like you and towards people like them.

What role is that?

Argue against everything.

So I should bobble head along side you, start calling people I don't like a fascist, then whine whenever someone calls me out on the dishonesty and disinformation that actually entails? You people really cannot stand it when someone disagrees with your ridiculous comments and statements. Maybe you'll accuse me of being a fascist next.

Stop saying ridiculous shit and I'll stop arguing against it. Sound fair?

Deflect and debate terminology all you want, Trump is/was an autocrat that tried to overturn an election he lost. He would gladly throw our democracy under a bus to serve his own self interests, silence his critics, and lovingly employ nationalistic and xenophobic displays to any ends.

And to say that his rhetoric and ideology is irrelevant is absurd. One more idiotic eoten statement for the books.

Nationalism doesnt have to come at the expense of everyone else. The ultranationalism espoused by Le Pen however, does. It very much thrives on dividing people by tribe.

Dont get me wrong, Nationalism is bad most of the time. But there are much healthier ways for naitonalism to manifest itself than Le Pen's ultra nationalist agenda.