So, about tearing down and vandalizing statues and monuments. Should it continue or is there a line?

I understand the confederate statues, but I think its being taken too far now. It seems statues are being vandalized for the sake of vandelism.

Well, I mean. Jesus wasn't white. I think they should make him like he was, just my two cents. :D

Ah yes, the slippery slope fallacy.

I don't really care what Shaun King has to say about Jesus, frankly it sounds stupid and is the same thing as saying Santa can't be black because it's European folklore, so make sure not to have a black mall Santa. But claiming that folks shouldn't tear down statues of American traitors and icons of confederacy because there's no possible outcome other than to tear down other random offensive statues is a classic bad faith argument.

The thing is, people are already tearing down non-Confederate statues to include the ones I mentioned in the original post. I'm not arguing whether or not we should let monuments of the Confederacy stand.

Your slippery slope response would have merit in regards to the question if the protesters and rioters exclusively targeted Confederate monuments.

The thing is statues should only go down if public agrees with it through proper means and they are taken down properly. Vandals running out and destroying public property just because they don't agree with it is not the way to do it. What gives these people the right to say what stays up and what goes down? That in a way is being fascist.

Correct.

Well, obviously offensive statues should be removed legally. It's just that right now people are afraid to punish anyone for doing it illegally because of the current situation with the protesting.

I think they should reflect the current culture of America.

I don't think anybody should tear them down without a vote, however. It's stupid and dangerous. Someone has been put into a coma because some lady kicked the statue on somebody's head. It should be removed professionally.

Not only would a vote be safer, it would also be more reflective of the culture in that area.

NYC is removing Teddy roosevelt

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/21/american-museum-natural-history-new-york-teddy-roosevelt

Lol if you think Confederate statues were all there coming after you have it all wrong.

I find it cringe and rediculous.

Cant say im surprised, after months of lockdown due to covid I think people are legit going insane.

Too many people with alot of extra time on thier hands

The confederacy were a bunch of racist traitors, tear down all statues and monuments.

Canada’s former Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau (Justin’s dad) recently had his statue pained blackface.

https://youtu.be/LRz7Abze1H4

There was no good reason why it was happening in the first place. If I start to tear down that which I find fault in, people better hold on to dear life.

It's a parasitic thought. You make yourself feel like you know better than others by looking at their faults and not your own. And you release that anger by hurting them. A cycle of self glorification, villanizing of the innocent, destruction and hatred. Not looking at the facts, not looking at the dangers, not looking at the whole picture. Just looking at the next thing to destroy in the name of some goal that anyone could get behind but that is lost on the first step.

Of all the victims people claim to be or find, there is one that has been hurt the most. That's the truth.

What we see in the USA is a gross disrespect for the truth. The truth of the past in the molestation of their history, the truth of the present in their universities where this originated, the media. A disrespect for their future by pretending this will all last. The truth tends to have the final laugh.

'Resetting' history means repeating your mistakes. It means you haven't learned a thing. It means dark times ahead. Just be smarter than that. You don't need to go through this cycle again.

All Confederate status and flags in all the state must be removed. If Confederate side would have won the USA would not be what it is today. They were killing fellow Americans it is like having a statu of Hitler in every state make no sense

I'm conflicted.

On one hand, a lot of these statues were put in place well after the Civil War not to commemorate battles, important figures, and so on, but they were put up in the mid-1900's to "put black people in their place". They were cheap, mass-produced statues that were put up to remind black people where they came from, and to remind white people as well.

I think those statues should be torn down.

On the other hand, some of these statues are historically significant. Or they were put up in an appropriate amount of time so their intent was not to antagonize people, but to commemorate historical figures and so on.

If you look at the chart, most of these statues were put up at times of "civil rights tension" in the US.

I agree. The confederate statutes makes a lot of sense. Hell just look when a lot of them were put up.

I think it's time we stop idolizing people that don't deserve it, Confederates, explorers, and past leaders who promoted the extermination of our native populations.

You don't learn history by looking at statues, or by going to parks. You learn history through books, museums, and documentaries.

When was the last time you went down to a statue to learn history? Statues are meant to idolize, there's a reason you don't see Nazi leader statues.........and I don't think we have forgotten that time in our history

I think we can all agree, except of course KKK members on this forum, that confederate statues should be torn down and the flag burned to dust. They were traitors to the union, disgusting human beings. Period.

You don't see Nazi statues because they were evil people. Not sure why you didn't know that.

I give this alt 1 week before banned.

Eh he's not wrong that we shouldn't celebrate the confederates at all.

btw, i'm all for voting the statues down.

Take down all statues of confederate soldiers, politicians, etc. The argument of 'it's muh' history' is dumb. We use statues to venerate, not teach. Coupled with the fact that most were erected during civil right pushes tells you all you need to know about why they were constructed in the first place. It's fear and intimidation plain and simple.

As for statues in general I'm OK with most if not all being removed, even our founding fathers. We've gotten to a point where we deify people in the past which leads to white washing of history. There's always going to be some acts of vandalism on stuff I won't agree with, but I won't let your slippery slope fallacy miss the forest for the trees.

Yea nah.

Other than a collection of confederate statues the majority of material being "torn down" is effectively random. There is no unified call to remove other statues and any that are as a result of recent events are simply unfortunate collateral. It's like saying a Wendy's got burned down by rioters, so the protesters must want an end to fast food. Worthless.

So yes, slippery slope.

Go back to school kiddo. Citizens destroying government issued icons is literally the opposite of fascism.

I'm pretty sure that was his point.

Then why did he mention them when talking about idols?

@LJS9502_basic: i was referring to him calling some board members kkk members.

BIG Case by Case basis.

Ask yourself,

When was the statue erected?
Why was the statue erected?

Come to the right conclusion based on that.

A lot of what is going on is simply put vandalism though.

He or she is saying that, we don't see statues of Nazi's because they were not good people, so why do have statues of slave owners?

*sigh* Some of the statues are presidents. They aren't celebrated for being slave owners but for being presidents. Different things. One can see the faults but still approve of the job of governing the nation. No one is perfect and we need to realize people have, fortunately, evolved. I'm not going to complain about a historical figure while we still have racists today...…..and those who defend them. That is the tragedy.

its an interesting question because the line is different for everyone. at some point we'll reach a new equilibrium.

that's what living in a civilization entails. everyone doesn't always get their way.

personally i'm fine getting rid of the civil war participation trophies. like mr. trump, i like winners, not losers.

You know when most of the confederate statutes were erected, right?

Too be sure we need to remove confederate statues......they were traitors. BUT it should be done on the community level...….not up to protestors.

Agree with that. Didn't one mayor respond pretty well to protesters doing it? As in, leave it be and some will be at it in 24 hours to properly remove it?

I personally don't care, and I'm not suprised the vandalism is happening considering it's been a topic for years and nobody did anything about it.. when you never treat a injury and ignore it, it gets infected and overflows.

Like others have said, the confederacy where traitors to the United States. They tried to overthrow the government and lost. People preaching "history" and "heritage" as a defense for statues of slave owners and people who butchered Native Americans should be notified that we have these things called books that can teach history. A statue doesn't do anything.

How much heritage can be made in 4 years?

@rmiller365: They're destroying a lot more then just confederate statues though, pretty much anything is fair game to destroy or vandalize right now. Hell they went after a statue of Arnold Schwarzenegger...I mean he's old maybe he fought for the confederates and I just didn't know about it?

@vfighter: Nah, it stems from the rage people feel from nothing getting done about issues. Like my injury analogy, if you have a spouse that beats you and always says things will change and they don't, you would simply stop trusting them and find your own outlet wouldn't you? As far a Confederate and Columbus statues go, screw it, cut all their heads off. They don't amount to anything.

I don't condone random acts of vandalism but I really can't say I'm suprised. What did they think would happen? It's not like it didn't happen already after MLK was killed, and again in the LA riots in the 90's.

A cop stood on a dude's neck for over 8 minutes while he begged to his mother and it took social media outrage for anything to be done about it. Followed then by peaceful protests getting tear gassed and beaten. Then, when people rage, they had the suprised Pikachu meme. All this has happened before and it will continue to happen until something changes.

Not sure but in the past local governments have removed statues quickly.

100% agree with this. When you have only one side making all the decisions that is not a good move. As LJ9502 says it need to be done through the community and not protesters. Believe it or not doing it through the community will have more meaning then protesters tearing down everything the deem unfit.

@LJS9502_basic just saying there has been a couple of things we have agreed on recently. I am very scared. ROFLMAO :P

I agree. Should be done orderly. And the support for it seems rather high these days.

I generally believe that the past is the past no matter how uncomfortable aspects of it might be and it's better to focus on making the future better rather then focus on trying to change what's already happened.

And I understand that a statue of a key person in the Confederacy is a uncomfortable thing, but if anyone can just throw some chains around a statue or monument they dislike and pull it down with their car. It does set a precedence for others to do the same with statues and monuments you may like but they don't.

Which you then can't really say is wrong as they've only done the same as you.

The people tearing down these statues without any legal authority should be arrested, incarcerated for some period of time, then fined for the damage they did to public property.

The fate of these statues and monuments should be decided by the community as a whole, either through their elected representatives, or by direct vote. Advocating for anything less is supporting lawlessness and vandalism.

Of course. I also know why they were erected.

The Confederate statues should never have been erected in the first place. Those need to be torn down, but vandalism isn't the answer. Some US presidents had slaves. It's an unfortunate fact. However, they weren't traitors.

Martin Luther King has a statue, right? Was involved in the rape of a female parishioner. Laughing about it, while watching it. Encouraging it, apparently. According to the FBI.

Now, that could be the FBI making this up to damage MLK's reputation.

Inconveniently, believing in a conspiracy theory like that is a typical alt-right practice. I hear 'the left' doesn't believe in conspiracy theories. What a conundrum.

I don't mind the confederate statues being taken down, but not like this. What the hell is going on? Why is there no law punishing these crimes? How is this not sickening to people? This is ridiculous. And they will not and have not stopped at confederate statues. Punish these assholes already.

I have observed people wanting the statues of Columbus taken down and the City of Columbus wanting to change their change their name for the reason given Columbus brought slavery and rape to the Americas. Slavery and rape existed in the America's long before the Europeans ever came to the North American shores. Many people are blaming the United States for slavery. Slavery is against human nature to be free to live and make your own decisions. slavery at the settling of North America was world wide and the colonists did not want slavery , it was forced upon the m by England. The first slave owner in colonial America was a black man. There were black slavers at the time of the civil war, and blacks who fought for the south. Before we destroy the republic take a pause to make the right decisions instead of gut reactions that are happening today.

I thought you were "non white" yet every post of yours sounds like the whitest post possible.

Anyway, tear them down. To the snowflakes, it's not erasure of history, it's coming to terms with your actual history.