Man, I don't know how some of y'all can call a player like Kobe Bryant overrated. He's the best scorer in the world, and gives it all he's got every game. Bryant should be an inspirational figure for the kids.
Poor Kobe...
This topic is locked from further discussion.
MJ has better career numbers only because he came into the league on a weak team so he played "starters' minutes right away.
Kobe came in from high school to a good/established team that did not need to play a rookie big minutes, therefore he did not put up big numbers.
I'd give MJ the edge on defense, but Kobe on offense. Kobe has better range on his J and is the BEST SCORER EVER, including Wilt, considering the variety of ways he can score. Wilt was a giant amongst midgets of course he set scoring records.
MJ's top 4 scoring games(69,64,63,61) came in OT's, one was in 2ot's. Kobe dropped 81 in regulation time and most of his other big games were in regulation. Kobe got 81 on 46 shots, MJ got 64 on 49 shots(in ot).
GIVE KOBE HIS PROPS !!Â
Keep in mind that Jordan played in a tougher decade. In the 80s and part of the 90s, hand checking was still allowed. Now, defenders cannot even lay a hand on a player with the ball on the perimeter.MJ has better career numbers only because he came into the league on a weak team so he played "starters' minutes right away.
Kobe came in from high school to a good/established team that did not need to play a rookie big minutes, therefore he did not put up big numbers.
I'd give MJ the edge on defense, but Kobe on offense. Kobe has better range on his J and is the BEST SCORER EVER, including Wilt, considering the variety of ways he can score. Wilt was a giant amongst midgets of course he set scoring records.
MJ's top 4 scoring games(69,64,63,61) came in OT's, one was in 2ot's. Kobe dropped 81 in regulation time and most of his other big games were in regulation. Kobe got 81 on 46 shots, MJ got 64 on 49 shots(in ot).
GIVE KOBE HIS PROPS !!
mont13
[QUOTE="mont13"]Keep in mind that Jordan played in a tougher decade. In the 80s and part of the 90s, hand checking was still allowed. Now, defenders cannot even lay a hand on a player with the ball on the perimeter. Dont even. MJ averaged 12 Free Throw Attempts Per Game. Dont even bring that BS up.MJ has better career numbers only because he came into the league on a weak team so he played "starters' minutes right away.
Kobe came in from high school to a good/established team that did not need to play a rookie big minutes, therefore he did not put up big numbers.
I'd give MJ the edge on defense, but Kobe on offense. Kobe has better range on his J and is the BEST SCORER EVER, including Wilt, considering the variety of ways he can score. Wilt was a giant amongst midgets of course he set scoring records.
MJ's top 4 scoring games(69,64,63,61) came in OT's, one was in 2ot's. Kobe dropped 81 in regulation time and most of his other big games were in regulation. Kobe got 81 on 46 shots, MJ got 64 on 49 shots(in ot).
GIVE KOBE HIS PROPS !!
SilverArmor82
You must not remember the game last year (maybe the year before) where Kobe was believed to have intentionally not taken hardly any shots and the team lost, I don't even remember if he took a shot in the half. That game came shortly after he was CRITICIZED by Phil Jackson for not getting his team involved and taking too many shots (something Jackson has stated many times) and Kobe instead of going with the coache's words and simply just taking a few less shots and distributing the ball more simply decided he was not going to shoot at all. He of course denied tanking the game when he was asked about it, but what do you think he was going to say. At the time I thought it was almost as bad as when Scottie Pippen refused to enter the game at the end because the last play was not designed for him (does anyone remember that). I'm not a big fan of selfish players. Man, I don't know how some of y'all can call a player like Kobe Bryant overrated. He's the best scorer in the world, and gives it all he's got every game. Bryant should be an inspirational figure for the kids.
SouthernBBaller
If your not a big fan of selfish players you can't be a fan of MJ who was the most selfish player ever, bar none! People only remember the good about MJ not the bad. There is so much mis-information about MJ its sickening. Â
MJ's 1st few years he was labeled as a great, but selfish talent who didn't get his teammates involved, shot too much, would never win a title, clashed with his teammates and coach Doug Collins(who ended up getting fired), punched Steve Kerr in face during a practice session, had issues with Horace Grant who was glad to go to Orlando even after 3 rings(feeling MJ treated him less than a man).......
Even in his better team oriented years he was selfish. If any one had a good game on him, the next time he would make sure to teach them a lesson by taking more shots to rack up points. He could have been passing to teammates but he had selfish motivated vendetta's against other players. Even if they won most of those games it still was selfish. He took away from his teammates chance to shine in order to make a selfish point. No other player is known for selfish payback as much as MJ. By the way MJ did not make his teammates better, more next time on that.
Face it, what you love in MJ you hate in Kobe.
  Any fair minded person seeing Kobe in sit down interviews can see he has matured his last few years, but you can't even give him that. He gets along with his team, follows the coaches lead... he only went on a scoring binge because the coach asked him to and the team needed it. For him not to would have been selfish and against the team. He's averaging 5.4 assists, (good for a 2 guard), MJ's career assists is 5.3.
[QUOTE="SouthernBBaller"]You must not remember the game last year (maybe the year before) where Kobe was believed to have intentionally not taken hardly any shots and the team lost, I don't even remember if he took a shot in the half. That game came shortly after he was CRITICIZED by Phil Jackson for not getting his team involved and taking too many shots (something Jackson has stated many times) and Kobe instead of going with the coache's words and simply just taking a few less shots and distributing the ball more simply decided he was not going to shoot at all. He of course denied tanking the game when he was asked about it, but what do you think he was going to say. At the time I thought it was almost as bad as when Scottie Pippen refused to enter the game at the end because the last play was not designed for him (does anyone remember that). I'm not a big fan of selfish players. Man, I don't know how some of y'all can call a player like Kobe Bryant overrated. He's the best scorer in the world, and gives it all he's got every game. Bryant should be an inspirational figure for the kids.
smallville206
By the way MJ also had a game when he was criticized for shooting too much. He went out and tanked the next game by not shooting, trying to make a selfish point! Again what you hate in Kobe you love in MJ .
Â
This is just amusing to me. Out of the two of us, you are extremely sensitive about this! You claimed that I hated on #24. I hate no one. He put up those numbers for five consecutive games while MJ put up 30+ ppg avg for six consecutive years (Something #24 has never done!). Additionally, #24 got his points against Memphis, New Orleans, Golden State, Portland and Minnesota (Teams with losing records and no defense). Talk to me if he can put similar numbers up against Detroit or Miami. Just because I don't favor a player that you (your icon)and the world idolize doesn't mean I should too. I never doubted #24's talent or his potential to change games. For the record, I was not implying you directly as the one who thought MJ was overrated (You being sensitive again!). When it is all said and done, this will not change my view of MJ being the best player to play the game unless #24 continues to put up 40+ ppg from now until the end of his career.Â
[QUOTE="mrvic87"]To hate on someone is to have no regard or respect for someone. You made the claim that I hate on Kobe. I don't know Kobe personally/professionally to hate on him or anyone. I have watched Kobe's play and I am just not impressed. He can drop another 50+ points but I would still not be impressed. MJ played unselfishly during his time (i.e. 92-93 Finals game where he passed the ball to Paxson for the series win...Kobe would have went for the shot and not even look for another teammate). MJ was also a great leader and a great defender. If you want to go by statistics, MJ was better than Kobe in almost every category including assists per game and points. They have the same FT percentage to date. So this crap about MJ being overrated just needs to quit. Just because everyone jumps on the Bryant bandwagon for scoring 40+ points in the last few games doesn't mean I should too. I have nothing against Bryant. I wish him nothing but success.
[QUOTE="hoop_hard"][QUOTE="JayPee89"][QUOTE="AHUGECAT"]
[QUOTE="murlow12"]If Kobe's overrated then so is Michael Jordan.hoop_hard
MJ IS overrated. Great? Heck yes. Greatest? Heck no.
Then who is the greatest? There is no greatest. There are many great players but there is no ONE "Greatest". You can make an argument for many players as the "greatest" but it will never be 100% approved upon. There will never be ONE "greatest" player in the NBA. Some of you need to get that through your head. Most people just hate on Kobe with no logic Whatsoever. Like this guy who posted in this thread has no logic behind his argument. His name doesn't matter but he says "Kobe lacks the ability to make his team better. MJ always made his team better by getting them involved. MJ would never hesitate to find an open man while Kobe is a ball hog." The way he used the word "ball hog", you can tell right off the top that he is clueless. If this is the argument to why MJ is the best player in the NBA then I have nothing to worry about.Â
Get out of here with that crap. I never said MJ was overrated and I never "jumped on Kobe's Bandwagon. I've been watching Kobe play since he came into the league. Also, you said it yourself "To hate on someone is to have no regard or respect for someone."
Â
Kobe is scoring 40+ points in a few games and all of a sudden he's better than MJ? I laughed so hard when I read those posts.mrvic87
I guess that makes you a hypocrite, doesn't it? I missed the part where you showed respect for Kobe. He Scoring 50 or more in 4 Games in a row. Something not even the great MJ didn't do. Something that hasn't been done in over 40 years. With this day and age, it is very unlikely to score 50+ in 4 straight games. Thats why Kobe is the only one to do it. Kobe had 65, 50, 60 and 50 points in a row. Then he scored 43. Also, this is obviously not the only reason why Kobe is better than MJ and once again it was disrespecful to suggest that. You call Kobe selfish and I miss the evidence to that. You say that MJ wasn't selfish? You think he didn't have an ego? You obviously didn't watch MJ as closely as you claim.Â
What your post basically means is that #24 put up points in less time than MJ ever did. Let's all clap at this achievement! When #24 retires he won't surpass the numbers that MJ put up. I can give #24 his props for everything he is currently doing, but I won't give him props as being the best player in the history of the NBA.
Â
MJ has better career numbers only because he came into the league on a weak team so he played "starters' minutes right away.
Kobe came in from high school to a good/established team that did not need to play a rookie big minutes, therefore he did not put up big numbers.
I'd give MJ the edge on defense, but Kobe on offense. Kobe has better range on his J and is the BEST SCORER EVER, including Wilt, considering the variety of ways he can score. Wilt was a giant amongst midgets of course he set scoring records.
MJ's top 4 scoring games(69,64,63,61) came in OT's, one was in 2ot's. Kobe dropped 81 in regulation time and most of his other big games were in regulation. Kobe got 81 on 46 shots, MJ got 64 on 49 shots(in ot).
GIVE KOBE HIS PROPS !!Â
mont13
What your post basically means is that #24 put up points in less time than MJ ever did. Let's all clap at this achievement! When #24 retires he won't surpass the numbers that MJ put up. I can give #24 his props for everything he is currently doing, but I won't give him props as being the best player in the history of the NBA.
Â
[QUOTE="mont13"]
MJ has better career numbers only because he came into the league on a weak team so he played "starters' minutes right away.
Kobe came in from high school to a good/established team that did not need to play a rookie big minutes, therefore he did not put up big numbers.
I'd give MJ the edge on defense, but Kobe on offense. Kobe has better range on his J and is the BEST SCORER EVER, including Wilt, considering the variety of ways he can score. Wilt was a giant amongst midgets of course he set scoring records.
MJ's top 4 scoring games(69,64,63,61) came in OT's, one was in 2ot's. Kobe dropped 81 in regulation time and most of his other big games were in regulation. Kobe got 81 on 46 shots, MJ got 64 on 49 shots(in ot).
GIVE KOBE HIS PROPS !!
mrvic87
You are forgetting one thing that stats don't show. That's what era and the quality of teams and players that Kobe has to face day after day. Last time I checked MJ didn't have to go up against super teams like Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, and Suns. (although he played in a more rough and defensive oriented Eastern Conference)
Also, both are incredible players, but in terms of talent, Kobe has the edge. But based on MJ's accomplishments, 6 NBA Championship, 6 NBA Finals MVP, you have to give MJ the nod.
"What your post means is that #24 put up more points in less time than MJ ever did"
My post means exactly what I said, I would give Kobe the edge on offense over MJ and Kobe is the best scorer ever. I have never seen a guy hit so many high degree of difficulty shots in someone(s) grill before and I've been watching pro ball since ABA days. Kobe just got his own team 2 years ago. They are the youngest in the league, and have had major injuries, but people expect the Lakers to contend, it takes time!, yet they are above 500, and with the exception of last night...KOBE IS STRAIGHT KILLIN' BOYS !!!!!! Enjoy Kobe's play and stop comparing him to MJ. Kobe has unbelievable talent !!!!
You force me to point out the truth about MJ. You can be considered the best and still be overated as MJ is !
"What your post means is that #24 put up more points in less time than MJ ever did"
My post means exactly what I said, I would give Kobe the edge on offense over MJ and Kobe is the best scorer ever. I have never seen a guy hit so many high degree of difficulty shots in someone(s) grill before and I've been watching pro ball since ABA days. Kobe just got his own team 2 years ago. They are the youngest in the league, and have had major injuries, but people expect the Lakers to contend, it takes time!, yet they are above 500, and with the exception of last night...KOBE IS STRAIGHT KILLIN' BOYS !!!!!! Enjoy Kobe's play and stop comparing him to MJ. Kobe has unbelievable talent !!!!
You force me to point out the truth about MJ. You can be considered the best and still be overated as MJ is !
mont13
MJ also has put up incredible, just straight-up outrageous shots (like coming from the foul line to dunk a missed FT). MJ has made more difficult shots than Kobe. Also, you foget that MJ played in a much more defensive oriented era, but still managed to score over 30 6 straight years. But this doesn't take away anything from Kobe. Kobe also has to play in a ridiculously star-ridden Western Conference, having to go up against super teams like Dallas, Houston, SA, and Suns. Â
[QUOTE="SouthernBBaller"]You must not remember the game last year (maybe the year before) where Kobe was believed to have intentionally not taken hardly any shots and the team lost, I don't even remember if he took a shot in the half. That game came shortly after he was CRITICIZED by Phil Jackson for not getting his team involved and taking too many shots (something Jackson has stated many times) and Kobe instead of going with the coache's words and simply just taking a few less shots and distributing the ball more simply decided he was not going to shoot at all. He of course denied tanking the game when he was asked about it, but what do you think he was going to say. At the time I thought it was almost as bad as when Scottie Pippen refused to enter the game at the end because the last play was not designed for him (does anyone remember that). I'm not a big fan of selfish players. Hang on, WTF are you talking about? Are you talking about Game 7 of Suns vs. Lakers. If so, you have no idea what the hell your talking about. Kobe had 23 Points at the Half and HE KNEW that in order to get his team back into he had to pass the ball because with the Suns you can't bring their confidence down by shooting at them. He has scored 50 points COUNTLESS times on the Suns and every time he does it the Lakers LOSE! BUT when he scores 20-30 points and gets everyone involved then they win. He STUCK WITH THE GAME PLAN. Try to slow the game down and bring it down the middle. What the hell could he do? Score 50 points, what would that resolved? Seriously, the Lakers would have lost and Kobe would be criticized for not getting his teammates involved. Cause what he does is NEVER good enough. The Suns were just the better team in that series and the better team came up on top. Thats all there is to it. Phil Jackson has criticized all of his players and none of them take anger towards that. Don't talk about stuff if you have no idea what your talking about.Man, I don't know how some of y'all can call a player like Kobe Bryant overrated. He's the best scorer in the world, and gives it all he's got every game. Bryant should be an inspirational figure for the kids.
smallville206
This is just amusing to me. Out of the two of us, you are extremely sensitive about this! You claimed that I hated on #24. I hate no one. He put up those numbers for five consecutive games while MJ put up 30+ ppg avg for six consecutive years (Something #24 has never done!). Additionally, #24 got his points against Memphis, New Orleans, Golden State, Portland and Minnesota (Teams with losing records and no defense). Talk to me if he can put similar numbers up against Detroit or Miami. Just because I don't favor a player that you (your icon)and the world idolize doesn't mean I should too. I never doubted #24's talent or his potential to change games. For the record, I was not implying you directly as the one who thought MJ was overrated (You being sensitive again!). When it is all said and done, this will not change my view of MJ being the best player to play the game unless #24 continues to put up 40+ ppg from now until the end of his career.
[QUOTE="hoop_hard"][QUOTE="mrvic87"]
To hate on someone is to have no regard or respect for someone. You made the claim that I hate on Kobe. I don't know Kobe personally/professionally to hate on him or anyone. I have watched Kobe's play and I am just not impressed. He can drop another 50+ points but I would still not be impressed. MJ played unselfishly during his time (i.e. 92-93 Finals game where he passed the ball to Paxson for the series win...Kobe would have went for the shot and not even look for another teammate). MJ was also a great leader and a great defender. If you want to go by statistics, MJ was better than Kobe in almost every category including assists per game and points. They have the same FT percentage to date. So this crap about MJ being overrated just needs to quit. Just because everyone jumps on the Bryant bandwagon for scoring 40+ points in the last few games doesn't mean I should too. I have nothing against Bryant. I wish him nothing but success.
[QUOTE="hoop_hard"][QUOTE="JayPee89"][QUOTE="AHUGECAT"]
[QUOTE="murlow12"]If Kobe's overrated then so is Michael Jordan.mrvic87
MJ IS overrated. Great? Heck yes. Greatest? Heck no.
Then who is the greatest? There is no greatest. There are many great players but there is no ONE "Greatest". You can make an argument for many players as the "greatest" but it will never be 100% approved upon. There will never be ONE "greatest" player in the NBA. Some of you need to get that through your head. Most people just hate on Kobe with no logic Whatsoever. Like this guy who posted in this thread has no logic behind his argument. His name doesn't matter but he says "Kobe lacks the ability to make his team better. MJ always made his team better by getting them involved. MJ would never hesitate to find an open man while Kobe is a ball hog." The way he used the word "ball hog", you can tell right off the top that he is clueless. If this is the argument to why MJ is the best player in the NBA then I have nothing to worry about.Get out of here with that crap. I never said MJ was overrated and I never "jumped on Kobe's Bandwagon. I've been watching Kobe play since he came into the league. Also, you said it yourself "To hate on someone is to have no regard or respect for someone."
Kobe is scoring 40+ points in a few games and all of a sudden he's better than MJ? I laughed so hard when I read those posts.mrvic87
I guess that makes you a hypocrite, doesn't it? I missed the part where you showed respect for Kobe. He Scoring 50 or more in 4 Games in a row. Something not even the great MJ didn't do. Something that hasn't been done in over 40 years. With this day and age, it is very unlikely to score 50+ in 4 straight games. Thats why Kobe is the only one to do it. Kobe had 65, 50, 60 and 50 points in a row. Then he scored 43. Also, this is obviously not the only reason why Kobe is better than MJ and once again it was disrespecful to suggest that. You call Kobe selfish and I miss the evidence to that. You say that MJ wasn't selfish? You think he didn't have an ego? You obviously didn't watch MJ as closely as you claim. Do you know how hard it is to put up 50 points against ANY TEAM? Yet alone put 50 points up against 4 teams in a row? Why don't you go look up who else besides Kobe scored 50 points in 4 games in a row. If Kobe could do it, Im sure MJ did it? Didn't he?
"MJ also has put up incredible, just straight-up outrageous shots (like coming from the foul line to dunk a missed FT). MJ has made more difficult shots than Kobe. Also, you foget that MJ played in a much more defensive oriented era, but still managed to score over 30 6 straight years. But this doesn't take away anything from Kobe. Kobe also has to play in a ridiculously star-ridden Western Conference, having to go up against super teams like Dallas, Houston, SA, and Suns. " Â
As far as difficult shots I was speaking of jumpers, especially long range. MJ could not stroke the long J like Kobe with guys all over him. I haven't forgotten anythng about the MJ era. Tougher D, maybe, also no zone to deal with back then. The league is trying to play tough D on Kobe but can't deal with him.
MJ didn't make Title runs until the Celtics and Lakers were in the decline. MJ has a higher scoring average only because he had the green light from day 1. Surely you can see this.
MJ didn't make anyone better. His teammates sacrificed their games so MJ could shine in a system designed around him.
MJ averaged 12 Free Throw attempts per season when he was scoring 30 PPG. Also, Jordan was always a terrible long range shooter. The only times his 3 pointers were good was when they brought the 3-point line closer to the rim.hoop_hard
Now tell me why it matters how he scored 30ppg...
MJ averaged 12 Free Throw attempts per season when he was scoring 30 PPG. Also, Jordan was always a terrible long range shooter. The only times his 3 pointers were good was when they brought the 3-point line closer to the rim.hoop_hard
He attacked the rim and got to the line, I don't see why this is a negative. Also, it's true that MJ was not a good three-point shooter, but Kobe is not a 3 point sharpshooter either (he's great, but not the best).
It's so hard to define single greatest player because there is so much variables to consider like the player quality, the team quality during the years that MJ played under. Like for Kobe, you can make the case that he plays under great stress and great conference and possibly more atheletic players. In other words, all this talk about who's greatest and who's not is pointless because it all comes down to perspective of different people.
"MJ also has put up incredible, just straight-up outrageous shots (like coming from the foul line to dunk a missed FT). MJ has made more difficult shots than Kobe. Also, you foget that MJ played in a much more defensive oriented era, but still managed to score over 30 6 straight years. But this doesn't take away anything from Kobe. Kobe also has to play in a ridiculously star-ridden Western Conference, having to go up against super teams like Dallas, Houston, SA, and Suns. "
As far as difficult shots I was speaking of jumpers, especially long range. MJ could not stroke the long J like Kobe with guys all over him. I haven't forgotten anythng about the MJ era. Tougher D, maybe, also no zone to deal with back then. The league is trying to play tough D on Kobe but can't deal with him.
MJ didn't make Title runs until the Celtics and Lakers were in the decline. MJ has a higher scoring average only because he had the green light from day 1. Surely you can see this.
MJ didn't make anyone better. His teammates sacrificed their games so MJ could shine in a system designed around him.
mont13
Yes, Kobe can make the tougher jump shots especially the three. I agree with that.
"Yes, Kobe can make the tougher jump shots especially the three. I agree with that."
Thanks, thats what I'm looking for honest debate/opinions. I'm not saying Kobe is better because of his long range ability, just that he is better than MJ in that area. That can off-set the one reason most say MJ is better ...defense. During his middle years MJ was more tenacious on D, but Kobe is no slouch on D either.
I agree also that U can't compare careers, its all relative.  I just don't like hearing Kobe get so much hate in general when he has grown as a player and person. He is a supreme talent standing on the shoulders of MJ, who stood on the shoulders of Dr. J, who stood on the shoulders of Connie Hawkins, who stood on the shoulders of Elgin Bailor....Â
And do you know how hard it is to average 30+ points six years in a row? I am not going to list any players who put up 50+ points in games. Listen, you started this claiming that I was a hypocrite. I never downplayed your boy's talent or skill. I agree with the fact that he's the hottest player today. Shoot me if I am not in awe or amazed like everyone else for all that he is doing. What he is doing now was done before and can be repeated in some variation or another. It doesn't really impress me and it certainly doesn't impress me when he put up those numbers on teams with losing records (Not even one high caliber team). Â
[QUOTE="mrvic87"]This is just amusing to me. Out of the two of us, you are extremely sensitive about this! You claimed that I hated on #24. I hate no one. He put up those numbers for five consecutive games while MJ put up 30+ ppg avg for six consecutive years (Something #24 has never done!). Additionally, #24 got his points against Memphis, New Orleans, Golden State, Portland and Minnesota (Teams with losing records and no defense). Talk to me if he can put similar numbers up against Detroit or Miami. Just because I don't favor a player that you (your icon)and the world idolize doesn't mean I should too. I never doubted #24's talent or his potential to change games. For the record, I was not implying you directly as the one who thought MJ was overrated (You being sensitive again!). When it is all said and done, this will not change my view of MJ being the best player to play the game unless #24 continues to put up 40+ ppg from now until the end of his career.
[QUOTE="hoop_hard"][QUOTE="mrvic87"]
To hate on someone is to have no regard or respect for someone. You made the claim that I hate on Kobe. I don't know Kobe personally/professionally to hate on him or anyone. I have watched Kobe's play and I am just not impressed. He can drop another 50+ points but I would still not be impressed. MJ played unselfishly during his time (i.e. 92-93 Finals game where he passed the ball to Paxson for the series win...Kobe would have went for the shot and not even look for another teammate). MJ was also a great leader and a great defender. If you want to go by statistics, MJ was better than Kobe in almost every category including assists per game and points. They have the same FT percentage to date. So this crap about MJ being overrated just needs to quit. Just because everyone jumps on the Bryant bandwagon for scoring 40+ points in the last few games doesn't mean I should too. I have nothing against Bryant. I wish him nothing but success.
[QUOTE="hoop_hard"][QUOTE="JayPee89"][QUOTE="AHUGECAT"]
[QUOTE="murlow12"]If Kobe's overrated then so is Michael Jordan.hoop_hard
MJ IS overrated. Great? Heck yes. Greatest? Heck no.
Then who is the greatest? There is no greatest. There are many great players but there is no ONE "Greatest". You can make an argument for many players as the "greatest" but it will never be 100% approved upon. There will never be ONE "greatest" player in the NBA. Some of you need to get that through your head. Most people just hate on Kobe with no logic Whatsoever. Like this guy who posted in this thread has no logic behind his argument. His name doesn't matter but he says "Kobe lacks the ability to make his team better. MJ always made his team better by getting them involved. MJ would never hesitate to find an open man while Kobe is a ball hog." The way he used the word "ball hog", you can tell right off the top that he is clueless. If this is the argument to why MJ is the best player in the NBA then I have nothing to worry about.Â
Get out of here with that crap. I never said MJ was overrated and I never "jumped on Kobe's Bandwagon. I've been watching Kobe play since he came into the league. Also, you said it yourself "To hate on someone is to have no regard or respect for someone."
Â
Kobe is scoring 40+ points in a few games and all of a sudden he's better than MJ? I laughed so hard when I read those posts.mrvic87
I guess that makes you a hypocrite, doesn't it? I missed the part where you showed respect for Kobe. He Scoring 50 or more in 4 Games in a row. Something not even the great MJ didn't do. Something that hasn't been done in over 40 years. With this day and age, it is very unlikely to score 50+ in 4 straight games. Thats why Kobe is the only one to do it. Kobe had 65, 50, 60 and 50 points in a row. Then he scored 43. Also, this is obviously not the only reason why Kobe is better than MJ and once again it was disrespecful to suggest that. You call Kobe selfish and I miss the evidence to that. You say that MJ wasn't selfish? You think he didn't have an ego? You obviously didn't watch MJ as closely as you claim. Do you know how hard it is to put up 50 points against ANY TEAM? Yet alone put 50 points up against 4 teams in a row? Why don't you go look up who else besides Kobe scored 50 points in 4 games in a row. If Kobe could do it, Im sure MJ did it? Didn't he?
Oh yea, what a role model. He was accused of raping a woman in a hotel a couple of years ago(cheating on his wife). Oh what an inspirational figure....
 Man, I don't know how some of y'all can call a player like Kobe Bryant overrated. He's the best scorer in the world, and gives it all he's got every game. Bryant should be an inspirational figure for the kids.
SouthernBBaller
My friend, he's been in the league for ten years! His career just started?Â
[QUOTE="smallville206"]I'm guessing most of the people picking Kobe over Jordan were just little tykes when Jordan played and were too young to remember how great he was, either that or just not very knowledgeable about basketball. Maybe when it's all said and done, but to say it now, ridiculous.hoop_hardJust wait. When its all said and done. Kobe will go down as the best basketball player in History. His career has just started. You have no idea whats ahead.
This has nothing to do with who can make a tougher jumpshot. Making the tougher jumpshot doesn't make you the best playr in NBA history. It's not just about winning championships and mvp awards. It's more than that.  You actually helped me in proving my next point. Most people don't care about any history. They only care about what they see now. Today, you see #24 and all the great things he can do on the court. Tomorrow, you will see another player on his shoulders doing the same type of things. And whoever that next great player will be, you will see a lot of folks claim he is the greatest player in the NBA. I am fortunate to have witnessed MJ and Kobe play. I would have them both on my team but when it comes to the best overall player in NBA ever, this means (offense, athleticism, defense, team-defense, leadership, passion for the game) hands down it's all MJ. #24 has the potential to be that but he would need to be consistent with his play from now on. He's in his 11th season and his numbers can barely dent MJ's numbers. I am not even going to mention championships. There's no point. I'm done.
"Yes, Kobe can make the tougher jump shots especially the three. I agree with that."
Thanks, thats what I'm looking for honest debate/opinions. I'm not saying Kobe is better because of his long range ability, just that he is better than MJ in that area. That can off-set the one reason most say MJ is better ...defense. During his middle years MJ was more tenacious on D, but Kobe is no slouch on D either.
I agree also that U can't compare careers, its all relative.  I just don't like hearing Kobe get so much hate in general when he has grown as a player and person. He is a supreme talent standing on the shoulders of MJ, who stood on the shoulders of Dr. J, who stood on the shoulders of Connie Hawkins, who stood on the shoulders of Elgin Bailor....Â
mont13
This has nothing to do with who can make a tougher jumpshot. Making the tougher jumpshot doesn't make you the best playr in NBA history. It's not just about winning championships and mvp awards. It's more than that. You actually helped me in proving my next point. Most people don't care about any history. They only care about what they see now. Today, you see #24 and all the great things he can do on the court. Tomorrow, you will see another player on his shoulders doing the same type of things. And whoever that next great player will be, you will see a lot of folks claim he is the greatest player in the NBA. I am fortunate to have witnessed MJ and Kobe play. I would have them both on my team but when it comes to the best overall player in NBA ever, this means (offense, athleticism, defense, team-defense, leadership, passion for the game) hands down it's all MJ. #24 has the potential to be that but he would need to be consistent with his play from now on. He's in his 11th season and his numbers can barely dent MJ's numbers. I am not even going to mention championships. There's no point. I'm done.
mrvic87
No, you are wrong. There is no such thing as definite greatest player, only people's opinions of who the greatest player of all time is. Obviously, you have your own bias opinion on who the greatest player of all time, but this doesn't mean it's true. There is so many factors and variables to consider that it's impossible to pinpoint one player as the greatest. For example, MJ started winning championships when Detroit, Lakers, and Celtics were all falling from their status as elites.
Also, I think hoop hard meant that Kobe's peak of his career is just starting.
I never said making a tougher j is the only criteria for greatness. When comparing the B-Ball skills of MJ and Kobe, Kobe's J is better than MJ's period ! Don't read more into it. Some keep saying MJ is better skill-wise because of his tougher D, its only fair to point out where Kobe is better than MJ, right???!
 Because some don't care about history doesn't make it unimportant. MJ did not invent B-ball, he saw other greats before him and built on that.
"but when it comes to the best overall player in NBA ever, this means (offense, athleticism, defense, team-defense, leadership, passion for the game) hands down it's all MJ".Â
MJ is not better offensively than Kobe, Kobe is as atheletic as they come, MJ has the edge on D, team D is not a consideration unless each player has the same supporting cast, Kobe's passion for the game is UN QUESTIONABLE!, that leaves "LEADERSHIP"
MJ only "became" a "good leader" when he had a good team around him, before that he was known as a selfish ballhog, coach killer!. Kobe has the the YOUNGEST TEAM IN THE NBA, that has had major injuries to STARTERS, but STILL HAS his sub-par team ABOVE 500 AND 2ND IN HIS DIVISION, in the tougher conference, his teammates and coach speak highly of him and his LEADERSHIP...but still no love for Kobe!.... sickening!Â
MJ never made his teamates better! Kerr and Paxson came into the league with one skill, shooting! They left with that one skill! Playing with MJ didn't make them better defenders, rebounders, shot blockers, etc.
Pippen was a good all round player in college, when MJ first retired Pippen became 1 of 2 players IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA to lead his team in 4 catagories(points, rbs, assists and steals), Dave Cowens was the other.
BJ Armstrong made the all-star team for the 1st time when MJ retired. Horace Grant made the all-star team for the first time when he was traded to Orlando. They were better players away from MJ.
D. Rodman was already a great rebounder/defender/garbage man before he came to the Bulls and MJ. Playing with MJ didn't make him an offensive force, Rodman just did what he always did!
Players have to have talent and improve on it themselves. Why didn't MJ make Stacey King, Granville Waiters, or Sam Vincent better??? He couldn't , he was frustrated and had to wait until they got better players!
 Kobe can't turn Kwame Brown into Carl Malone no more than MJ could turn Stacey King into Dennis Rodman! Kobe can't make Smush Parker shoot like Steve Kerr no more than MJ could make Sam Vincent shoot like J. Paxson.
See why history is important! It makes you a better/fairer judge of whats really going on. MJ does get too much credit, which is why its fair to say he's OVER- RATED! The Bulls simply found the best cast and team formula/chemistry to put around his great talent, that's why they won! His t-mates sacrificed their games for the center piece MJ(as they should have) but MJ didn't make them better players.
When MJ first retired the Bulls only lost 2 MORE GAMES THAN THE PREVIOUS SEASON! The Bulls winning had more to do with the team formula and having the right complementary players in place. If/When Kobe gets that watch people sing his praises as a leader, but fair minded people can see he is doing fine as a leader with what he has now.Â
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Regardless of what you might think, the only that matters is that Jordan has achieved a hell of a lot more than Kobe. Despite the fact that Kobe is a great player, he has a lot of catching up to do.I never said making a tougher j is the only criteria for greatness. When comparing the B-Ball skills of MJ and Kobe, Kobe's J is better than MJ's period ! Don't read more into it. Some keep saying MJ is better skill-wise because of his tougher D, its only fair to point out where Kobe is better than MJ, right???!
Because some don't care about history doesn't make it unimportant. MJ did not invent B-ball, he saw other greats before him and built on that.
"but when it comes to the best overall player in NBA ever, this means (offense, athleticism, defense, team-defense, leadership, passion for the game) hands down it's all MJ".
MJ is not better offensively than Kobe, Kobe is as atheletic as they come, MJ has the edge on D, team D is not a consideration unless each player has the same supporting cast, Kobe's passion for the game is UN QUESTIONABLE!, that leaves "LEADERSHIP"
MJ only "became" a "good leader" when he had a good team around him, before that he was known as a selfish ballhog, coach killer!. Kobe has the the YOUNGEST TEAM IN THE NBA, that has had major injuries to STARTERS, but STILL HAS his sub-par team ABOVE 500 AND 2ND IN HIS DIVISION, in the tougher conference, his teammates and coach speak highly of him and his LEADERSHIP...but still no love for Kobe!.... sickening!
MJ never made his teamates better! Kerr and Paxson came into the league with one skill, shooting! They left with that one skill! Playing with MJ didn't make them better defenders, rebounders, shot blockers, etc.
Pippen was a good all round player in college, when MJ first retired Pippen became 1 of 2 players IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA to lead his team in 4 catagories(points, rbs, assists and steals), Dave Cowens was the other.
BJ Armstrong made the all-star team for the 1st time when MJ retired. Horace Grant made the all-star team for the first time when he was traded to Orlando. They were better players away from MJ.
D. Rodman was already a great rebounder/defender/garbage man before he came to the Bulls and MJ. Playing with MJ didn't make him an offensive force, Rodman just did what he always did!
Players have to have talent and improve on it themselves. Why didn't MJ make Stacey King, Granville Waiters, or Sam Vincent better??? He couldn't , he was frustrated and had to wait until they got better players!
Kobe can't turn Kwame Brown into Carl Malone no more than MJ could turn Stacey King into Dennis Rodman! Kobe can't make Smush Parker shoot like Steve Kerr no more than MJ could make Sam Vincent shoot like J. Paxson.
See why history is important! It makes you a better/fairer judge of whats really going on. MJ does get too much credit, which is why its fair to say he's OVER- RATED! The Bulls simply found the best cast and team formula/chemistry to put around his great talent, that's why they won! His t-mates sacrificed their games for the center piece MJ(as they should have) but MJ didn't make them better players.
When MJ first retired the Bulls only lost 2 MORE GAMES THAN THE PREVIOUS SEASON! The Bulls winning had more to do with the team formula and having the right complementary players in place. If/When Kobe gets that watch people sing his praises as a leader, but fair minded people can see he is doing fine as a leader with what he has now.
mont13
"Regardless of what you might think, the only that matters is that Jordan has achieved a hell of a lot more than Kobe. Despite the fact that Kobe is a great player, he has a lot of catching up to do."
Sorry to cloud the issue with those facts, but regardless of what you might think, MJ did not get those acheivements in a vacuum, or on his own. He was the most talented part of well put togehter TEAMS. When he did not have a well put together team he scored a lot because he shot a lot, he has the 2nd higest FGA in history Eigin Baylor is first by a hair. But AGAIN, during those times MJ was not the great leader you think he was. HE WAS VERY SELFISH!!!!
Kobe does not have to catch up to anybody. Kobe should do the best he can with the team he's on and the current level of competition in the league. Kobe is no less a player because he hasn't matched MJ stat for stat or ring for ring. If they played in parallel universes, on the same teams, in the same era, with the same coach, with the same level of competition, under the same rules...only then can you compare their accomplishments fairly.
All I'm trying to tell all of you is MJ had his Day, he was a GREAT player, maybe the greatest. He also had several negatives that people want to forget, but choose to remember in Kobe.
Kobe is a great talent, he may or may not win another ring, but I'm telling you in Kobe Bryant you are seeing one of the GREATEST B-Ball players you will ever see, enjoy it.Â
"Regardless of what you might think, the only that matters is that Jordan has achieved a hell of a lot more than Kobe. Despite the fact that Kobe is a great player, he has a lot of catching up to do."
Sorry to cloud the issue with those facts, but regardless of what you might think, MJ did not get those acheivements in a vacuum, or on his own. He was the most talented part of well put togehter TEAMS. When he did not have a well put together team he scored a lot because he shot a lot, he has the 2nd higest FGA in history Eigin Baylor is first by a hair. But AGAIN, during those times MJ was not the great leader you think he was. HE WAS VERY SELFISH!!!!
Kobe does not have to catch up to anybody. Kobe should do the best he can with the team he's on and the current level of competition in the league. Kobe is no less a player because he hasn't matched MJ stat for stat or ring for ring. If they played in parallel universes, on the same teams, in the same era, with the same coach, with the same level of competition, under the same rules...only then can you compare their accomplishments fairly.
All I'm trying to tell all of you is MJ had his Day, he was a GREAT player, maybe the greatest. He also had several negatives that people want to forget, but choose to remember in Kobe.
Kobe is a great talent, he may or may not win another ring, but I'm telling you in Kobe Bryant you are seeing one of the GREATEST B-Ball players you will ever see, enjoy it.
mont13
Wow...I can't believe there is someone else in this forum that doesn't have his head stuck up jordan's @$$. Completely agree with you, there is no way to pinpoint THE greatest player in a sports because there is too many variables involved in it. If you really want to compare two great players, you have to put them in similar situations and see how they end up, but obviously this is not possible. Kobe may or may not be the greates, who knows. MJ may or may not be the greatest, but he seems the closest thing to having a perfect NBA career. Â
Just wait. When its all said and done. Kobe will go down as the best basketball player in History. His career has just started. You have no idea whats ahead. I know he has been in the league for ten years but he has only recently dealt with the difficulties of not being on a great team. Everything he has done in the past is behind him "8". Thats why he changed his number "24", so he is writing a new chapter, so to speak.My friend, he's been in the league for ten years! His career just started?
[QUOTE="hoop_hard"][QUOTE="smallville206"]I'm guessing most of the people picking Kobe over Jordan were just little tykes when Jordan played and were too young to remember how great he was, either that or just not very knowledgeable about basketball. Maybe when it's all said and done, but to say it now, ridiculous.mrvic87
[QUOTE="mont13"]"Regardless of what you might think, the only that matters is that Jordan has achieved a hell of a lot more than Kobe. Despite the fact that Kobe is a great player, he has a lot of catching up to do."
Sorry to cloud the issue with those facts, but regardless of what you might think, MJ did not get those acheivements in a vacuum, or on his own. He was the most talented part of well put togehter TEAMS. When he did not have a well put together team he scored a lot because he shot a lot, he has the 2nd higest FGA in history Eigin Baylor is first by a hair. But AGAIN, during those times MJ was not the great leader you think he was. HE WAS VERY SELFISH!!!!
Kobe does not have to catch up to anybody. Kobe should do the best he can with the team he's on and the current level of competition in the league. Kobe is no less a player because he hasn't matched MJ stat for stat or ring for ring. If they played in parallel universes, on the same teams, in the same era, with the same coach, with the same level of competition, under the same rules...only then can you compare their accomplishments fairly.
All I'm trying to tell all of you is MJ had his Day, he was a GREAT player, maybe the greatest. He also had several negatives that people want to forget, but choose to remember in Kobe.
Kobe is a great talent, he may or may not win another ring, but I'm telling you in Kobe Bryant you are seeing one of the GREATEST B-Ball players you will ever see, enjoy it.
dkhw
Wow...I can't believe there is someone else in this forum that doesn't have his head stuck up jordan's @$$. Completely agree with you, there is no way to pinpoint THE greatest player in a sports because there is too many variables involved in it. If you really want to compare two great players, you have to put them in similar situations and see how they end up, but obviously this is not possible. Kobe may or may not be the greates, who knows. MJ may or may not be the greatest, but he seems the closest thing to having a perfect NBA career.
I'd say that the people in this forum has their head stuck up Jordan's and Kobe's @ss, that's just the nature of sports. Bostonians think Bird is the greatest to ever live........Can we just stop this pointless, endless debating. If you think about it we are arguing over something stupid. These players are great and we just enjoy watching them playing instead of arguing which one was the best. In their own ways they are the best. This is why the NBA choose 50 GREAT Players and not just ONE! Lets end this. hoop_hardDUDE!? Thanks hoop. One of your wisest posts.
[QUOTE="schoolisnotkool"]Kobe raped that woman, kobe doesn't need pity or sympathy, he needs a jail cell.Rhazakna
He didn't rape anyone. People are still on this?
Sad indeed, this deserves a quote from a song I like... "Get arrested – getting arrested don’t make me guilty But by the time I make it to court The media dun’ killed me"Please Log In to post.
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