TNF: 49ers vs Bears

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Seabas989"]

Oh I know Campbell is mediocre. I was actually one of the few Redskins fans that thought it was a good idea not to get Cutler since are offensive line is atrocious that any Qb would have trouble unless they are Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, etc. Also I knew Cutler throws a lot of interceptions.

EDIT: Yes are running game is terrible which has been the biggest disappointment this season for the skins.

mattykovax

It always sucks when you have a bunch of pieces but can't put them together, in the Skins' case I don't think you can even blame the coaches, although I'm only really familiar with Jim Zorn. I'm actually a little befuddled when it comes to the Skins, but I guess the O-Line would be a reasonable explanation.

Well Haynesworth is still a beast and they can still win with Jason Campbell, but I certainly agree that a decent spending philosophy is a good thing, and it does seem that Snyder is undercutting Zorn as opposed to trying to help him. They're talking about firing Zorn at the end of the season, but most of the big name coaches aren't going to be lured to a team where the owner's going to be running the show.

For people that say Cutler is better than Orton? Well at least Orton doesn't throw INTs for fun :P Great defensive game.Mister__Awesome

You obviously didn't follow Orton when he was with the Bears. In his two seasons as starter he threw a combined 25 interceptions and 27 touchdowns, so far he's got 31 and 39 for his career. The big knock on him was also that he couldn't pick up third downs, something Cutler's been able to do a lot better than Orton did. Lastly, Orton's a pocket passer, he doesn't have Jay's mobility. I'd love to see how well Orton would do behind that line, not so good I would think.

I really didnt even watched this game forgot it was on..but i did see a couple clips of it on espn...but i did pick the 49ers to win

I love how Cutler was standing on the sidelines blaming his teammates after his interceptions when in fact they were all his fault except the one where hester fell down. The other 4 were just terrible throws by Cutlerandyboiii

I love how Cutler was standing on the sidelines blaming his teammates after his interceptions when in fact they were all his fault except the one where hester fell down. The other 4 were just terrible throws by Cutlerandyboiii

Aside from a 6-7, 250lb. TE getting shoved around by a much smaller DB. Not all the INTs were Cutler's fault. Besides, no one was crying this loud when Peyton Manning was an INT machine at this stage in his career.

I believe this is the end of Lovie Smith in Chicago, its simply time for him to go. And I don't want to hear anymore crap about how Rod Marinelli is a great D-line coach who is going to do so much for the team. Yeah, he's really got Tommie Harris believing, doesn't he? And giving up over 100 rushing to a team with a weak passing game? Ouch.

I believe this is the end of Lovie Smith in Chicago, its simply time for him to go. And I don't want to hear anymore crap about how Rod Marinelli is a great D-line coach who is going to do so much for the team. Yeah, he's really got Tommie Harris believing, doesn't he? And giving up over 100 rushing to a team with a weak passing game? Ouch.

MarcusAntonius

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

I believe this is the end of Lovie Smith in Chicago, its simply time for him to go. And I don't want to hear anymore crap about how Rod Marinelli is a great D-line coach who is going to do so much for the team. Yeah, he's really got Tommie Harris believing, doesn't he? And giving up over 100 rushing to a team with a weak passing game? Ouch.

mattykovax

Actually, talent is just as much the problem. Jerry Angelo is a guy supposedly known for his abaility to draft for defense, but I'm not so sure that's true anymore. Look at the failing players:

2005S Chris HarrisTraded to Carolina (replaced by legendary free agent flop Adam Archuleta, OUCH)

2006S Danieal ManningHas struggled as a starter

2006DT Dusty DvoracekInjuires ended his Bears career

2006LB Jamar WilliamsHas been a backup

2006DE Mark AndersonInvsible after 12-sack rookie season

2007DE Dan BazuinKnee injury ended his career (traded up to draft this flop in the 2nd round iirc)

2007DE Michael OkwoWaived after injuries

2007S Kevin PayneLost starting job this summer

2007 DB Corey GrahamPlummeted to bottom of depth chart

2007CB Trumaine McBrideWaived this summer

2008DT Marcus HarrisonStarting at nose tackle

2008S Craig SteltzReserve

2008CB Zack BowmanStarting

2008DE Ervin BaldwinWaived

2008LB Joey LaRocqueWaived

2009DL Jarron GilbertInactive most of this season

2009DE Henry MeltonInjured reserve

2009CB D.J. MooreInactive for most of this season

2009LB Marcus FreemanWaived

2009S Al AfalavaStarting

Oh well, we got three good seasons out of Tommie Harris before he lost his mind.

I believe this is the end of Lovie Smith in Chicago, its simply time for him to go. And I don't want to hear anymore crap about how Rod Marinelli is a great D-line coach who is going to do so much for the team. Yeah, he's really got Tommie Harris believing, doesn't he? And giving up over 100 rushing to a team with a weak passing game? Ouch.

MarcusAntonius

They at least need to get rid of some of the coaching staff. Ron Turner absolutely has to go, his type of playcalling belongs in high school games. Although I think John Hoke is fairly new, I haven't been very impressed with the development of the young corners. We may have some guys that can generate picks, but Peanut is the only reliable coverage guy we have at corner, soI wouldn't mind seeing the secondary coaches go. I also think Babich might belong in this group, every season he's been here there's been some probelm with the way teh linebackers are tackling. They always come out and fix it the next game, but a good coach doesn't have that recurring problem. I like our new receivers coach. Although the receivers aren't perfect I think he's done a good job with what he has, and I also think Marinelli and Dave Toub need to stay no matter what, but other than those three I think the coaching staff should be fair game.

As for Lovie, word is the McCaskeys aren't going to eat the money left on his contract. That's still on management for giving him an expensive extention before they knew what they had, but I think he might still have a chance to do good if he does stay. I definitely think there's a coaching problem, but I'm not so sure it's as endemic as people think. What he really needs to do is take control of the team. He should bench players that get out of line. Harris shouldn't have been playing that game, as good as he did play. When a player takes a swing like that you need to set him straight. And look, the very next game Harrison comes in and costs them big yards with a stupid penalty, he should be benched, plain and simple. Lovie needs to send the message that dumb penalities, sloppy play, and poor tackling are going to get you benched no matter what you number is, otherwise his players are going to continue to exhibit that behavior.

[QUOTE="mattykovax"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

I believe this is the end of Lovie Smith in Chicago, its simply time for him to go. And I don't want to hear anymore crap about how Rod Marinelli is a great D-line coach who is going to do so much for the team. Yeah, he's really got Tommie Harris believing, doesn't he? And giving up over 100 rushing to a team with a weak passing game? Ouch.

MarcusAntonius

Actually, talent is just as much the problem. Jerry Angelo is a guy supposedly known for his abaility to draft for defense, but I'm not so sure that's true anymore. Look at the failing players:

I have to disagree on some of those players, I don't think they're as large a failure as you're making them out to be. Remember, a lot of these same players were good up and comers when they were on a Superbowl team.

2006S Danieal ManningHas struggled as a starter-Manning's actually been pretty decent as a starter, he's probably the best safety wehave on the team right now. I could see him starting ful-time at that position.

2006DT Dusty DvoracekInjuires ended his Bears career-Not really a lack of talent but a pension for injuries and bad timing. Don't know that you can blame that one an Angelo.

2006LB Jamar WilliamsHas been a backup-And a special teams standout and decent replacement for injured backs this season. He's fast, he's a hard hitter, it's just questionable if he has what it takes to ever be a consistent starter.

2006DE Mark AndersonInvsible after 12-sack rookie season-This is where I think coaching has to be considered as part of the equation. How else do you go from 12 sacks to none?

2007DE Dan BazuinKnee injury ended his career (traded up to draft this flop in the 2nd round iirc)-Again, injuries acn't be predicted.

2007S Kevin PayneLost starting job this summer-I actually like Kevin Payne, he has made some awesome open-field tackles. I don't think he's as complete of a safety as someone like Manning, he struggles a bit in coverage, but he is a great tackler.

2007 DB Corey GrahamPlummeted to bottom of depth chart-The cornerback situation confounds me as much as any, and I don't think coaching can be discounted, althoughI agree we've given away some of our best corners over the years. I think part of the problem is Lovie loves corners that can get picks so he always goes for the smaller, faster backs. The problem with that is they're often horrible in coverage when the ball isn't in a position for them to pick it off. Zack Bowman has had some nice picks this season, but he also gets torched by the better receivers in the league. I think they need to start looking for good all-around corenrs instead of just finding the ones who are suited for interceptions.

2007CB Trumaine McBrideWaived this summer-See above.

2008S Craig SteltzReserve-Not every draft pick is going to be a starter, and Steltz contributes on special teams. I actually think he's a better aquisition than Josh Bullocks (trade) has been thus far

2009LB Marcus FreemanWaived-Some players look great coming in and then don't pan out, that can't all be blamed on the GM. Remember that coaches help a GM evaluate talent most times. The flip side of this coin is Afalava, no one expected him to be that good right out of the gate, but lo and behold.

"Oh well, we got three good seasons out of Tommie Harris before he lost his mind"-Harris needs a reality check, but we also might not be wasting so many picks on DL's if we hadn't have run Tank Johnson out of town. I know he had his problems, but why do we always have to be the team tossing these player instead of getting them in line like Cinci and New England seem to be able to do?

I do agree, though, that a lot of blame rests on Angelo. i was about to edit my post and say as much before you beat me to it. He's gotten some good players, but when you look at the number of busts that go along with it you can see that it's almost like throwing darts blindfolded, as long as you're facing the right direction you're bound to hit a couple. He's pretty close to the edge as it is, though, and everyone knows it including him. If he lasts until the start of next season he better make damn sure he gets his act together. We need another good inside D lineman, the ends play better when they get help from the guys inside. We need a good corner who can play coverage in addition to getting picks. We also need someone on the O-line who can make a bigger difference. If he doesn't get at least two of those through free agency, trades, or the draft he's gone before the start of next season, and he might already be gone before that anyways.

Aside from a 6-7, 250lb. TE getting shoved around by a much smaller DB. Not all the INTs were Cutler's fault. Besides, no one was crying this loud when Peyton Manning was an INT machine at this stage in his careerMarcusAntonius

even if you say it was a pass interference the TE was covered anyways :lol: why didn't he just throw it away? the ball wasn't even on the side of the receiver when Cutler threw it, his accuracy is terrible.

who are you throwing to Cutler?

[QUOTE="andyboiii"]I love how Cutler was standing on the sidelines blaming his teammates after his interceptions when in fact they were all his fault except the one where hester fell down. The other 4 were just terrible throws by CutlerMarcusAntonius

Aside from a 6-7, 250lb. TE getting shoved around by a much smaller DB. Not all the INTs were Cutler's fault. Besides, no one was crying this loud when Peyton Manning was an INT machine at this stage in his career.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="andyboiii"]I love how Cutler was standing on the sidelines blaming his teammates after his interceptions when in fact they were all his fault except the one where hester fell down. The other 4 were just terrible throws by Cutlerthequietguy

Aside from a 6-7, 250lb. TE getting shoved around by a much smaller DB. Not all the INTs were Cutler's fault. Besides, no one was crying this loud when Peyton Manning was an INT machine at this stage in his career.

Because maybe I actually watched football back then as well.:|

Statistics are actually recorded in case you haven't heard.:roll:

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]Aside from a 6-7, 250lb. TE getting shoved around by a much smaller DB. Not all the INTs were Cutler's fault. Besides, no one was crying this loud when Peyton Manning was an INT machine at this stage in his careerandyboiii

even if you say it was a pass interference the TE was covered anyways :lol: why didn't he just throw it away? the ball wasn't even on the side of the receiver when Cutler threw it, his accuracy is terrible.

who are you throwing to Cutler?

He didn't throw it away because they keep leaning on him to run the entire offense. The way they're calling the game he has to throw on just about every down, and he has to pick up positive yards on each play, and he has to make up for stupid penalties and bad play calls that got no yards, and he has to complete passes forfirst downs when there are no open receivers, and he has to do it while scrambling because he can barely finish a three-step drop without seeing pressure. If he threw it away the knock would be that he can't pick up critical first downs, no matter what he does everything that goes wrong with the Bears this season is going to be on him. I'm not saying he played perfect in that game, I'm more than a little disturbed that three of his interceptions this season have been to D-linemen, but there are ten other guys out on that field and they've also got a lot of things they're doing wrong this season. You can blame Cutler all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they're losing as a team.

His accuracy is also not the issue, he has amazing accuracy when he has the chance to showcase it. The problem is his decision making, sometimes he thinks he can thread holes that he can't and he just decides to force it in there, which is usually when he starts to throw interceptions.

[QUOTE="Mister__Awesome"]For people that say Cutler is better than Orton? Well at least Orton doesn't throw INTs for fun :P Great defensive game.theone86

You obviously didn't follow Orton when he was with the Bears. In his two seasons as starter he threw a combined 25 interceptions and 27 touchdowns, so far he's got 31 and 39 for his career. The big knock on him was also that he couldn't pick up third downs, something Cutler's been able to do a lot better than Orton did. Lastly, Orton's a pocket passer, he doesn't have Jay's mobility. I'd love to see how well Orton would do behind that line, not so good I would think.

To say Orton throws as many INT's as Cutler to me is absurd.

Cutler has played 46 games, and has thrown 54 INT's.That is roughly an INT per game!

Sure Cutler has 68 TD's, but damn there is a reason why the Broncos collapsed last season.

Orton has played in 41 games, and has thrown 31 INT's.

Orton has thrown 39 TD's in those 41 games.

Cutler since 2007 since he became full-time starter and 2009

2007: 297/467 63.6 3,497 yards 20 TD's 14 INT's 11 Fumbles 4 FL; Broncos 7-9 miss playoffs going 2-3 last five games.
2008: 384/616 62.3 4,526 yards 25 TD's 18 INT's 5 Fumbles 2 FL; Broncos 8-8 miss playoffs going 2-3 last five games.
2009: 211/338 62.4 2,353 yards 14 TD's 17 INT's 7 Fumbles 1 FL; Bears 4-5, 1-4 last five games.

Orton in the two years he started with the Bears and 2009

2005: 190/368 51.9 1,869 yards 9 TD's 13 INT's 12 Fumbles 5 FL; Bears 11-5 #2 seed, lost to CAR in divisional round at home.
2008: 272/465 58.5 2,972 yards 18 TD's 12 INT's 6 Fumbles 5 FL; Bears 9-7 miss playoffs, going 3-2 last five games
2009: 170/269 63.2 1,838 yards 9 TD's 4 INT's 1 Fumble 0 FL; Broncos 6-2, 3-2 last five games.

If you ask me I rather have Orton who won't lose the game for you, rather than Cutler who can throw 3 TD's or 3 INT's in any game regardless of the opponent. Sure Cutler has the sexier stats, but Orton won't lose you the game so that is why he is better and i rather have him on my team. Orton has been to the playoffs (sure be it the Bears when they were great on Defense) with a good team, while Cutler has had some good teams and has been in position to make the playoffs and has struggled down the stretch en route to missing the playoffs.

Sure Orton has a "knock" for lack of 3rd down conversion, but what is good for a 3rd down conversion if your QB will eventually throw a back breaking red zone INT like Cutler has been doing.

Mobility can be overrated. The best passers in the league lack mobility, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees. Sure the line in CHI has been less than stellar, but wow, look at all those INT's 9 games in the season and look at how most of those INT's are thrown, Cutler tries to sling it into 3 man coverage and what not. Cutler has yet to mature as a smart passer. Orton imo is ahead of him in that department and if you are trying to make the playoffs you rather take a QB with Orton's credentials over Cutler's.

Basically, Orton over Cutler. No question, doubt it? Look above then ask yourself, do you want a QB that won't throw INT's and will give your defense and your run game a chance to win the game and even be able to pass the ball as well. Or would you rather have a gunslinger who thinks there is no such thing as good enough coverage for his passes and is known for throwing INT's in the worse scenarios and in bunches but can at least give you the chance to win with the games he throws 3 TD's? Cutler is a TO machine whether be on fumbles or on INT's. Turnovers lose you football games, managing a game like Orton does not.

I'm taking Orton someone who might win me a game but definately won't lose one to the degree of Cutler.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Mister__Awesome"]For people that say Cutler is better than Orton? Well at least Orton doesn't throw INTs for fun :P Great defensive game.Mister__Awesome

You obviously didn't follow Orton when he was with the Bears. In his two seasons as starter he threw a combined 25 interceptions and 27 touchdowns, so far he's got 31 and 39 for his career. The big knock on him was also that he couldn't pick up third downs, something Cutler's been able to do a lot better than Orton did. Lastly, Orton's a pocket passer, he doesn't have Jay's mobility. I'd love to see how well Orton would do behind that line, not so good I would think.

To say Orton throws as many INT's as Cutler to me is absurd.

Cutler has played 46 games, and has thrown 54 INT's.That is roughly an INT per game!

Sure Cutler has 68 TD's, but damn there is a reason why the Broncos collapsed last season.

Orton has played in 41 games, and has thrown 31 INT's.

Orton has thrown 39 TD's in those 41 games.

Cutler since 2007 since he became full-time starter and 2009

2007: 297/467 63.6 3,497 yards 20 TD's 14 INT's 11 Fumbles 4 FL; Broncos 7-9 miss playoffs going 2-3 last five games.
2008: 384/616 62.3 4,526 yards 25 TD's 18 INT's 5 Fumbles 2 FL; Broncos 8-8 miss playoffs going 2-3 last five games.
2009: 211/338 62.4 2,353 yards 14 TD's 17 INT's 7 Fumbles 1 FL; Bears 4-5, 1-4 last five games.

Orton in the two years he started with the Bears and 2009

2005: 190/368 51.9 1,869 yards 9 TD's 13 INT's 12 Fumbles 5 FL; Bears 11-5 #2 seed, lost to CAR in divisional round at home.
2008: 272/465 58.5 2,972 yards 18 TD's 12 INT's 6 Fumbles 5 FL; Bears 9-7 miss playoffs, going 3-2 last five games
2009: 170/269 63.2 1,838 yards 9 TD's 4 INT's 1 Fumble 0 FL; Broncos 6-2, 3-2 last five games.

If you ask me I rather have Orton who won't lose the game for you, rather than Cutler who can throw 3 TD's or 3 INT's in any game regardless of the opponent. Sure Cutler has the sexier stats, but Orton won't lose you the game so that is why he is better and i rather have him on my team. Orton has been to the playoffs (sure be it the Bears when they were great on Defense) with a good team, while Cutler has had some good teams and has been in position to make the playoffs and has struggled down the stretch en route to missing the playoffs.

Sure Orton has a "knock" for lack of 3rd down conversion, but what is good for a 3rd down conversion if your QB will eventually throw a back breaking red zone INT like Cutler has been doing.

Mobility can be overrated. The best passers in the league lack mobility, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees. Sure the line in CHI has been less than stellar, but wow, look at all those INT's 9 games in the season and look at how most of those INT's are thrown, Cutler tries to sling it into 3 man coverage and what not. Cutler has yet to mature as a smart passer. Orton imo is ahead of him in that department and if you are trying to make the playoffs you rather take a QB with Orton's credentials over Cutler's.

Basically, Orton over Cutler. No question, doubt it? Look above then ask yourself, do you want a QB that won't throw INT's and will give your defense and your run game a chance to win the game and even be able to pass the ball as well. Or would you rather have a gunslinger who thinks there is no such thing as good enough coverage for his passes and is known for throwing INT's in the worse scenarios and in bunches but can at least give you the chance to win with the games he throws 3 TD's? Cutler is a TO machine whether be on fumbles or on INT's. Turnovers lose you football games, managing a game like Orton does not.

I'm taking Orton someone who might win me a game but definately won't lose one to the degree of Cutler.

These interceptions stats are being overused and they're not as relevant as you make them out to be. Like I said, according to your logic Brett Favre is the worst QB ever. The Bears have team problems that run deeper than Cutler, everyone expects him to do everything and then some, oh and also don't throw any interceptions while you do it, it's just not gonna happen.

Orton is on a good team, he was up and down with the Bears and even then the O-line and running game were better than they have been for Cutler. You just want to go, "Oh, look at interceptions," but Orton has thrown interceptions at a better rate this year than he did in Chicago, the players around him have something to do with that just like they have something to do with Cutler throwing more interceptions this year. Orton was a decent quarterback in a decent system in Chicago, now he's a decent quarterback in a good system in Denver, but he's still nothing more than decent.

We wouldn't be talking about Cutler's red zone percentage if he couldn't get to the red zone, which Orton couldn't in Chicago. The fact is when you can't run the ball and everyone knows you can't run the ball you're going to have problems AS A TEAM in the red zone. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have backs who have the ability to pound it in to the red zone and make them respect the run, Cutler doesn't.

I'm not talking about whether mobility os overrated or not, I'm saying that if you look at the pressure Cutler is under and you look at how often he has to run out of the pocket to keep the play alive, then you look at how well Orton does the same you can see that Orton would have had a much harder time under the same pressure than Cutler.

Wait until you see how Orton does in the playoffs before you say he has credentials, he started most of the Superbowl season and they decided to go with Rex Grossman over him in the playoffs. At any rate it's not ORTON that's going to make the difference, it's the players and staff around him that do their jobs well enough to give him a chance to succeed. It's easy to be smart when you have time in the pocket, you have receivers who get open, and you have a good running game. Cutler has none of those.

I love that Orton and Cutler have basically the same fumbling stats and you're calling Cutler out for fumbling. In fact Orton has more for losses than Cutler. That's not really the issue, though, as using that stat alone is misleading. How many of those were bad snaps in either QB's case?

Everything's always on Cutler when they do poorly, but what about when they win? He's basically got the entire offense resting on his shoulders, but I don't hear half the amount of praise for him when they win as I do criticism of him when they lose. This is a witch hunt, is all it is. It's the trendy thing to do to trash Cutler this month, so that's what everyone's doing. I'm not saying Cutler doesn't have some issues making decisions, but I think that just shows how ridiculous all this criticism of him is. How am I defending someone with two 4+ interceptions games this season? Because the people criticizing him are that ridiculous. I shouldn't have to defend him, when someone does that everyone should be able to sit back and say he did bad, but his detractors have just taken it to another level and their criticisms are, frankly, ridiculous.

I also like how people who haven't watched him at all are teeing off on him. If people watch the games and analyze the plays they will see that everything that goes wrong in Chicago is not Cutler's fault. That's not saying he isn't making mistakes, but like when you say he's forcing it too much, that's what they're asking him to do. He's been in these thrid and long situations where his receivers aren't open and he knows if he doesn't make a play everyone's going to come down on him for not doing so.