Apple is a joke

They are over priced, lack power, over charge for everything, basicly evey system only has 1gb ram and you have to pay big bucks just to get the needed 2gb.

I doesn't matter what mac you look at you can get a pc equivelent for around $400-500nzd less with more cpu power ram, and hdd space. apple offers 80-120gb on most of its models while dell offers 250-320gb

And then there is the gpu, you can't even get a dedicated gpu in the 13' model, what a joke.

They are over priced, lack power, over charge for everything, basicly evey system only has 1gb ram and you have to pay big bucks just to get the needed 2gb.

I doesn't matter what mac you look at you can get a pc equivelent for around $400-500nzd less with more cpu power ram, and hdd space. apple offers 80-120gb on most of its models while dell offers 250-320gb

And then there is the gpu, you can't even get a dedicated gpu in the 13' model, what a joke.

imprezawrx500

You pay for the brand name and the style, not the substance.

there not for gaming, there for simpletons, i thought everyone here knew this? this is why apple sells as well as they do, because they have simplicity, just like the wiiunreal48

Ooooh, sneaky sneaky! Just threw in that little dig at the Wii in just at the last second!

Must be a damn good joke, b/c I'm sure they're laughing their way to the bank. -RPGamer-

well apple had to be bailed out by ms before the ipod came along. its the ipod that's made apple money

Apple products are sort of just for elitists and hipsters who want to pay a little more so they can say that they did. I've nothing against apple products, and use them sometimes, but I usually prefer the cheaper alternative.Bio_Spark

Is that why the MacBook Pro is the best laptop on the market at any price level (it might have been passed up by now)?

Apple doesn't make low-end products. That's not their problem, that's just the business decision they made, and it's working out well.

Their products GREATLY outperform their windows-based counterparts of similar specs. Windows hampers anything that's running it, so if you have a 2.2 Core 2 Duo running OS-X versus a Core 2 Duo running Vista, the comp running OS-X is going to outperform the one running Vista.

They make great products. They're priced higher than it would be to build your own comp, but they are not priced higher relative to anything from brands such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc.

Um....Mac OS doesn't REQUIRE 2 gigs because it isn't a resource hog like Vista. XP doesn't either.

I see you can dog quite easily on Mac for being overpriced, but half that battle is removing components to upgrade your PC....it literally can't happen on a Mac. Same thing with most Dells. So please, don't try and act like Dell or Vista or from Christ just because Macs are overpriced PoS.

And DON'T act like an elitist (hypocrite) when Vista is a total stillbirth OS.

Linux FTW, XP FTDoubleWin

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]Must be a damn good joke, b/c I'm sure they're laughing their way to the bank. imprezawrx500

well apple had to be bailed out by ms before the ipod came along. its the ipod that's made apple money

While it's certainly a big part, the MacBook and MacBook Pro are consistently among the highest selling laptops in the world. Apple's portable marketshare is about 20%, if I remember correctly. That's a significant amount of laptops. They really are great machines. I wish people wouldn't bash them without trying them or even having a clue what they're talking about. The specs really don't do them justice because OS-X is just such a different beast from anything Windows.

Is that why the MacBook Pro is the best laptop on the market at any price level (it might have been passed up by now)?

Apple doesn't make low-end products. That's not their problem, that's just the business decision they made, and it's working out well.

Their products GREATLY outperform their windows-based counterparts of similar specs. Windows hampers anything that's running it, so if you have a 2.2 Core 2 Duo running OS-X versus a Core 2 Duo running Vista, the comp running OS-X is going to outperform the one running Vista.

They make great products. They're priced higher than it would be to build your own comp, but they are not priced higher relative to anything from brands such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc.

i_like_pizza

[QUOTE="i_like_pizza"]

Is that why the MacBook Pro is the best laptop on the market at any price level (it might have been passed up by now)?

Apple doesn't make low-end products. That's not their problem, that's just the business decision they made, and it's working out well.

Their products GREATLY outperform their windows-based counterparts of similar specs. Windows hampers anything that's running it, so if you have a 2.2 Core 2 Duo running OS-X versus a Core 2 Duo running Vista, the comp running OS-X is going to outperform the one running Vista.

They make great products. They're priced higher than it would be to build your own comp, but they are not priced higher relative to anything from brands such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc.

SkullboyX

Huh? What ever made you think that?

I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.swamprat_basic

Is that why the MacBook Pro is the best laptop on the market at any price level (it might have been passed up by now)?

Apple doesn't make low-end products. That's not their problem, that's just the business decision they made, and it's working out well.

Their products GREATLY outperform their windows-based counterparts of similar specs. Windows hampers anything that's running it, so if you have a 2.2 Core 2 Duo running OS-X versus a Core 2 Duo running Vista, the comp running OS-X is going to outperform the one running Vista.

They make great products. They're priced higher than it would be to build your own comp, but they are not priced higher relative to anything from brands such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc.

i_like_pizza

Um, you're lying. They are priced higher than Dells.

I found an exact replica of the 2700 Macbook on Apple's website as a Dell for $1300.

Like, as in all the components were exactly the same or near-equivalent.

Your point about Mac OSX outperforming Vista is true, though. But XP isn't dogged down nearly as much and Linux takes the cake over all these rotten goofs (despite being a poor gaming platform).

[QUOTE="SkullboyX"][QUOTE="i_like_pizza"]

Is that why the MacBook Pro is the best laptop on the market at any price level (it might have been passed up by now)?

Apple doesn't make low-end products. That's not their problem, that's just the business decision they made, and it's working out well.

Their products GREATLY outperform their windows-based counterparts of similar specs. Windows hampers anything that's running it, so if you have a 2.2 Core 2 Duo running OS-X versus a Core 2 Duo running Vista, the comp running OS-X is going to outperform the one running Vista.

They make great products. They're priced higher than it would be to build your own comp, but they are not priced higher relative to anything from brands such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc.

i_like_pizza

Huh? What ever made you think that?

They don't. Ignore him.

If you know ANYTHING about Vista, you'd know it's a total resource hog and offers inferior performance to any other OS on videogames.

[QUOTE="swamprat_basic"]I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.SkullboyX

LAWLS

This thread is rumor city. So many fanboys in this thread it's embarrassing.

Windows fanboys, Mac fanboys....now DELL fanboys? How do you even BECOME a Dell fanboy? I would suspect a prerequisite is removal of the prefrontal lobe. I'm not certain, it's entirely speculative.

[QUOTE="SkullboyX"][QUOTE="i_like_pizza"]

Is that why the MacBook Pro is the best laptop on the market at any price level (it might have been passed up by now)?

Apple doesn't make low-end products. That's not their problem, that's just the business decision they made, and it's working out well.

Their products GREATLY outperform their windows-based counterparts of similar specs. Windows hampers anything that's running it, so if you have a 2.2 Core 2 Duo running OS-X versus a Core 2 Duo running Vista, the comp running OS-X is going to outperform the one running Vista.

They make great products. They're priced higher than it would be to build your own comp, but they are not priced higher relative to anything from brands such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc.

i_like_pizza

Huh? What ever made you think that?

Apple products are sort of just for elitists and hipsters who want to pay a little more so they can say that they did. I've nothing against apple products, and use them sometimes, but I usually prefer the cheaper alternative.Bio_Spark

Or...you know, anyone in the following industries:

Animation

Video/Sound Editing

Film

Graphics

Advertising

and the countless other industries that have used macs as standard since long before they were considered "hip".

I use a PC @ home for gaming, and a mac at school/work.

Mac OS X is just another OS. Apple is afraid to make an official Mac OS X CD for PC because I think they know won't fare well against Windows and its library of compatible drivers. Mac OS X on PC would be in the same boat that Linux, SunOS, Novell, and a few other non-Windows operating systems are in, a cry for manufacture driver support. So instead Apple sticks to its own products they can make drivers for.

[QUOTE="swamprat_basic"]I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.SkullboyX

Been out of the loop for a while? Dell has outsourced all of their Customer Service to Idiotland. Calling Dell is now an absolutely horrific experience. You have to wait while they go down their entire checklist of crap that you've all ready checked. At the Apple stores they will actually listen to you, and replace your product if it is not easily fixible.

ACER is not even a comparable company.

I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.swamprat_basic

well I know someone what had 2 macs break within a year so yeah they are reliable. again she had teriable customer service with the offical apple repair shop who basicly refused to fix but wanted to sell her a new one

Um, you're lying. They are priced higher than Dells.

I found an exact replica of the 2700 Macbook on Apple's website as a Dell for $1300.

Like, as in all the components were exactly the same or near-equivalent.

Your point about Mac OSX outperforming Vista is true, though. But XP isn't dogged down nearly as much and Linux takes the cake over all these rotten goofs (despite being a poor gaming platform).

BobHipJames

If you can find any computer for the same price as a MacBook Pro that will outperform it, I would be shocked. Comparisons break down in the fact that they don't run the same OS, and different programs were designed specifically for different OSes, but in the case of the MacBook Pro, it even runs Windows better than any traditionally Windows-based comps. It really is a great machine, and the fact that you can literally do everything on a mac that you can do on a PC makes it that much more worth it.

Um....Mac OS doesn't REQUIRE 2 gigs because it isn't a resource hog like Vista. XP doesn't either.

I see you can dog quite easily on Mac for being overpriced, but half that battle is removing components to upgrade your PC....it literally can't happen on a Mac. Same thing with most Dells. So please, don't try and act like Dell or Vista or from Christ just because Macs are overpriced PoS.

And DON'T act like an elitist (hypocrite) when Vista is a total stillbirth OS.

Linux FTW, XP FTDoubleWin

BobHipJames

Umm... you can upgrade the hardware in your Mac. Maybe not on their iMac computers, but on the towers you definitely can. I've done it before at work.

[QUOTE="SkullboyX"][QUOTE="swamprat_basic"]I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.BobHipJames

LAWLS

This thread is rumor city. So many fanboys in this thread it's embarrassing.

Windows fanboys, Mac fanboys....now DELL fanboys? How do you even BECOME a Dell fanboy? I would suspect a prerequisite is removal of the prefrontal lobe. I'm not certain, it's entirely speculative.

I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.swamprat_basic

it's not 90s anymore. Current quality of apple's hardware is average (far from he quality of lenovo or asus(which is ironic because asus actualy manufactures macbooks) and their customer service has been getting worse and worse very year (I don't think they anticipated the success of their non-computer products and that's the result)

[QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

Um....Mac OS doesn't REQUIRE 2 gigs because it isn't a resource hog like Vista. XP doesn't either.

I see you can dog quite easily on Mac for being overpriced, but half that battle is removing components to upgrade your PC....it literally can't happen on a Mac. Same thing with most Dells. So please, don't try and act like Dell or Vista or from Christ just because Macs are overpriced PoS.

And DON'T act like an elitist (hypocrite) when Vista is a total stillbirth OS.

Linux FTW, XP FTDoubleWin

swamprat_basic

Umm... you can upgrade the hardware in your Mac. Maybe not on their iMac computers, but on the towers you definitely can. I've done it before at work.

Mac OS X is just another OS. Apple is afraid to make an official Mac OS X CD for PC because I think they know won't fare well against Windows and its library of compatible drivers. Mac OS X on PC would be in the same boat that Linux, SunOS, Novell, and a few other non-Windows operating systems are in, a cry for manufacture driver support. So instead Apple sticks to its own products they can make drivers for.

c_smithii

Why would they want OS-X on PCs? That wouldn't fit at all with their business model. They are a high-end performance oriented company, and that's what they go for by keeping everything within themselves. As a business model, they're absolutely brilliant, and for those willing to make the leap to their products, it's not a disappointment.

[QUOTE="swamprat_basic"]I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.AdrianWerner

it's not 90s anymore. Current quality of apple's hardware is average (far from he quality of lenovo or asus(which is ironic because asus actualy manufactures macbooks) and their customer service has been getting worse and worse very year (I don't think they anticipated the success of their non-computer products and that's the result)

In the 90s Apple was an inch away from being dead. Ironically, Bill Gates is the one who saved them. They were a non-factor until the iPod. Their computers have never really been a part of the equation until the MacBook and MacBook Pro which are the best-selling laptops on the market, if I'm not mistaken.

MBA's "revolutionary" desig :D
what a joke it's just slightly improved version of 2004 vaio x505
first apple copied sony's keyboard, now they copy the whole design (only diffrence us that x505' interior actualy looked nice unlike MBA).
the funny thing is I've seen mactards bashing sony for "stealing macbook's keyboard" couple times already what a joke
AdrianWerner

NO OPTICAL DRIVE LOL.

I can't believe some Mac fanboys are actually drooling over this thing.

[QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

[QUOTE="SkullboyX"][QUOTE="swamprat_basic"]I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.SkullboyX

LAWLS

This thread is rumor city. So many fanboys in this thread it's embarrassing.

Windows fanboys, Mac fanboys....now DELL fanboys? How do you even BECOME a Dell fanboy? I would suspect a prerequisite is removal of the prefrontal lobe. I'm not certain, it's entirely speculative.

Dell might have used to have the best Customer Service, but it is now terrible. I speak from experience as well. My parents bought their last 3 computers from Dell, and they all had terrible hardware problems like hard-drives failing, sound / graphics cards failing, etc. Whenever they tried calling to get those components replaced they were put through nightmarish experiences with Dell customer service representatives in India. My parents have since sworn off of Dell.

[QUOTE="Bio_Spark"]Apple products are sort of just for elitists and hipsters who want to pay a little more so they can say that they did. I've nothing against apple products, and use them sometimes, but I usually prefer the cheaper alternative.Andrew_Xavier

Or...you know, anyone in the following industries:

Animation

Video/Sound Editing

Film

Graphics

Advertising

and the countless other industries that have used macs as standard since long before they were considered "hip".

I use a PC @ home for gaming, and a mac at school/work.

first of all.. only 2d grahics are diominated by osx, 3d ones are dominated by pcs. second..what "countless other industries"? tyou bassicaly named every single one where macs beat PCs. But yeah, the professionals using macs are ok, it's the macheads wo buy macs only to be trendy and show it off in starbucks that create the negative image apple users have

I can believe many industry professionals and high end graphics/animators are drooling over this thing.

Velocitas8

Edited for truth :)

[QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

Um, you're lying. They are priced higher than Dells.

I found an exact replica of the 2700 Macbook on Apple's website as a Dell for $1300.

Like, as in all the components were exactly the same or near-equivalent.

Your point about Mac OSX outperforming Vista is true, though. But XP isn't dogged down nearly as much and Linux takes the cake over all these rotten goofs (despite being a poor gaming platform).

i_like_pizza

If you can find any computer for the same price as a MacBook Pro that will outperform it, I would be shocked. Comparisons break down in the fact that they don't run the same OS, and different programs were designed specifically for different OSes, but in the case of the MacBook Pro, it even runs Windows better than any traditionally Windows-based comps. It really is a great machine, and the fact that you can literally do everything on a mac that you can do on a PC makes it that much more worth it.

Hahahahahaha.

So that example didn't cut it?

That was a MacBook Pro. The only problem with the Dell being its running Vista....but assuming you had OSX, Linux, or XP laying around....boom. Instantaneously comparable performance.

Or you could just WAKE THE HELL UP and build your own PC for reasonable prices....in that particular Macbook Pro there was an 8600 GT 256. I bought this card from Newegg, EVGA, for $75 after rebate, $80 post-shipping&handling.

$2700. And you couldn't find anything with that $1400 price difference to fill in the gaps caused by a slightly more competent OS?

[QUOTE="swamprat_basic"]I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.AdrianWerner

it's not 90s anymore. Current quality of apple's hardware is average (far from he quality of lenovo or asus(which is ironic because asus actualy manufactures macbooks) and their customer service has been getting worse and worse very year (I don't think they anticipated the success of their non-computer products and that's the result)

I've had my Powerbook for 5 years, and it still runs fine. My grandmother has had her iMac for even longer, has to be 7 or 8 years, and it runs like new. I had one problem with my Powerbook where the OS got corrupted. I brought it into the store, and they had fixed it within the hour, and nothing was lost.

Is that why the MacBook Pro is the best laptop on the market at any price level (it might have been passed up by now)?

Apple doesn't make low-end products. That's not their problem, that's just the business decision they made, and it's working out well.

Their products GREATLY outperform their windows-based counterparts of similar specs. Windows hampers anything that's running it, so if you have a 2.2 Core 2 Duo running OS-X versus a Core 2 Duo running Vista, the comp running OS-X is going to outperform the one running Vista.

They make great products. They're priced higher than it would be to build your own comp, but they are not priced higher relative to anything from brands such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc.

i_like_pizza

you say they aren't more than dell hp etc? then how come the dell xps 1530 is $2400nzd while the macbook pro 15" is $3400 with 120gb hdd vs 320gb in the dell, 128mb 8600gt vs 256mb 8600gt and has 2gb vs 3gb ram and that's the highend xps, if you take the cheap one and up the cpu to 2.2ghz the same as the mac, make the ram the same, its, $2300 vs $3400 so you say that's no difference? then you must have unlimited money also fastest cpu in a dell laptop is 2/8ghz core 2 extreme while apple maxes out at a very mid range 2.4

[QUOTE="Velocitas8"]

I can believe many industry professionals and high end graphics/animators are drooling over this thing.

Andrew_Xavier

Edited for truth :)

[QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

Um, you're lying. They are priced higher than Dells.

I found an exact replica of the 2700 Macbook on Apple's website as a Dell for $1300.

Like, as in all the components were exactly the same or near-equivalent.

Your point about Mac OSX outperforming Vista is true, though. But XP isn't dogged down nearly as much and Linux takes the cake over all these rotten goofs (despite being a poor gaming platform).

i_like_pizza

If you can find any computer for the same price as a MacBook Pro that will outperform it, I would be shocked. Comparisons break down in the fact that they don't run the same OS, and different programs were designed specifically for different OSes, but in the case of the MacBook Pro, it even runs Windows better than any traditionally Windows-based comps. It really is a great machine, and the fact that you can literally do everything on a mac that you can do on a PC makes it that much more worth it.

[QUOTE="c_smithii"]

Mac OS X is just another OS. Apple is afraid to make an official Mac OS X CD for PC because I think they know won't fare well against Windows and its library of compatible drivers. Mac OS X on PC would be in the same boat that Linux, SunOS, Novell, and a few other non-Windows operating systems are in, a cry for manufacture driver support. So instead Apple sticks to its own products they can make drivers for.

i_like_pizza

Why would they want OS-X on PCs? That wouldn't fit at all with their business model. They are a high-end performance oriented company, and that's what they go for by keeping everything within themselves. As a business model, they're absolutely brilliant, and for those willing to make the leap to their products, it's not a disappointment.

Please. I cant think of any reason to buy a Macbook.

It's obscenely overpriced and I can get comparable office suites and graphics library software prebundled with any decent Linux distro. You can't upgrade the Mac, for the killing blow. You can't upgrade it without sending it in to Apple and paying them a 200% or greater premium on their bloated products.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="swamprat_basic"]I won't be surprised if more people move to Apple over the next couple years. Their computers last forever, as opposed to Dell computers, which last maybe 2 years. Apple also has the best customer service on the planet.i_like_pizza

it's not 90s anymore. Current quality of apple's hardware is average (far from he quality of lenovo or asus(which is ironic because asus actualy manufactures macbooks) and their customer service has been getting worse and worse very year (I don't think they anticipated the success of their non-computer products and that's the result)

In the 90s Apple was an inch away from being dead. Ironically, Bill Gates is the one who saved them. They were a non-factor until the iPod. Their computers have never really been a part of the equation until the MacBook and MacBook Pro which are the best-selling laptops on the market, if I'm not mistaken.

Apple isn't even in top5 biggest laptops manufacturers. And yes... their laptops have becamed more popular and cheaper, but they sacrificed quality for it. Macbooks's manufacturing quality is nowhere near the one they had 5-10 years ago. Heck...even powerbooks are much better built than macbooks ever were. the o9nly way you can make apple's hardware look reliable is by comparing it to dell (which has the lowest quality out of all big laptops manufacturers) only that Dell is actualy improving recently, so who knows how long it will last.

first of all.. only 2d grahics are diominated by osx, 3d ones are dominated by pcs. second..what "countless other industries"? tyou bassicaly named every single one where macs beat PCs.

AdrianWerner

Well...I left out some like Architecture, etc, but yeah, seriously, it has a leg up in a few industries...

Honestly, I could *not* properly edit on a PC.

[QUOTE="i_like_pizza"][QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

Um, you're lying. They are priced higher than Dells.

I found an exact replica of the 2700 Macbook on Apple's website as a Dell for $1300.

Like, as in all the components were exactly the same or near-equivalent.

Your point about Mac OSX outperforming Vista is true, though. But XP isn't dogged down nearly as much and Linux takes the cake over all these rotten goofs (despite being a poor gaming platform).

htekemerald

If you can find any computer for the same price as a MacBook Pro that will outperform it, I would be shocked. Comparisons break down in the fact that they don't run the same OS, and different programs were designed specifically for different OSes, but in the case of the MacBook Pro, it even runs Windows better than any traditionally Windows-based comps. It really is a great machine, and the fact that you can literally do everything on a mac that you can do on a PC makes it that much more worth it.

Exactly, that doesn't even make logical sense. I want to see the benchmarks, I want to see the sources, and there had better be at least 2-3 reliable ones.

[QUOTE="Bio_Spark"]Apple products are sort of just for elitists and hipsters who want to pay a little more so they can say that they did. I've nothing against apple products, and use them sometimes, but I usually prefer the cheaper alternative.Andrew_Xavier

Or...you know, anyone in the following industries:

Animation

Video/Sound Editing

Film

Graphics

Advertising

and the countless other industries that have used macs as standard since long before they were considered "hip".

I use a PC @ home for gaming, and a mac at school/work.

a cheaper pc can do all that faster. adobe is 10000000000000x better than any mac program, and vista has everything osx has

[QUOTE="i_like_pizza"]

Is that why the MacBook Pro is the best laptop on the market at any price level (it might have been passed up by now)?

Apple doesn't make low-end products. That's not their problem, that's just the business decision they made, and it's working out well.

Their products GREATLY outperform their windows-based counterparts of similar specs. Windows hampers anything that's running it, so if you have a 2.2 Core 2 Duo running OS-X versus a Core 2 Duo running Vista, the comp running OS-X is going to outperform the one running Vista.

They make great products. They're priced higher than it would be to build your own comp, but they are not priced higher relative to anything from brands such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc.

imprezawrx500

you say they aren't more than dell hp etc? then how come the dell xps 1530 is $2400nzd while the macbook pro 15" is $3400 with 120gb hdd vs 320gb in the dell, 128mb 8600gt vs 256mb 8600gt and has 2gb vs 3gb ram and that's the highend xps, if you take the cheap one and up the cpu to 2.2ghz the same as the mac, make the ram the same, its, $2300 vs $3400 so you say that's no difference? then you must have unlimited money also fastest cpu in a dell laptop is 2/8ghz core 2 extreme while apple maxes out at a very mid range 2.4

I own both because I bought a $75 8600 GT from Newegg and then overclocked it for better performance than you'll see on either the Mac or the Dell.