Are Japanese developers bad with gaming technology?

This is something I noticed. Western developers like Crytek, Naughty Dog, 4A games or R* are well-known for their advancements and innovations in game engines and technologies. Their games also tend to run decently or even greatly despite their graphical punch.

What I also noticed is that Japanese developers tend to be absolutely terrible at that. Cutting-edge games from them seem to be the exception rather than the norm. Their games often look outdated compared to their western counterparts but most of all even with their subpar visuals, they run terribly.

Dark Souls, Nioh, Sekiro, Monster Hunter, Nier: Automata, Bloodborne, FF XV.

The only game in that bunch that is technologically advanced on that list is FF XV but even that runs pretty poorly, especially on consoles. It's pretty OK or even good on PC.

My main point of contention isn't that the games look visually questionable, it's that their performance is often times abysmal especially in the case of Nier. Usually the trade off for poor graphics is give performance but they're below average in both departments.

Am I biased or is this something that's consistent across Japanese developers?

I imagine it's a combination of lacking budget and top tier talent, perhaps even an outdated understanding of the video game market beyond their own borders. There's no doubt they have creative teams but they often seem to fall short on the technical implementation of those ideas.

Yes talent is in the west for this new modern way of game development. West took over. It is also very costly short term to invest on a modern engine. Square failed with luminous. Capcom took too long to hire western talent. Kojima with all his bullshit actually realized this early on and even poked fun at japanese way of game development at gdc (Look at what that got him lol). Platnum are small potatoes with alot of work they are better of making games for limited hardware. When it comes to visual quality its too much for them. They can never get something like the RE engine. Its too costly and they don't have the talent. I wouldn't be surprised if this was not part of the ploblem with Scalebound especially that early in the gen. Thank god for Unreal Engine during that transition. Fromsoft are also not that big.

They focus more on the gameplay which is something I wish a lot of modern western AAA devs would do.

The Japanese AAA market isn't what it used to be since console gaming shrank over there and PC gaming isn't big over there. Most Japanese devs are left with the option to either go mobile or adapt to a small budget mindset. They don't have the resources to dedicate to flashy new engines and tech so they try to grab your attention with great gameplay. While I love great graphics, I like great gameplay even more. Not saying that Western devs aren't capable of delivering on both but with blunders like Anthem, Battlefront 2, BFV, etc. that look absolutely stellar running on my PC and PS4 Pro but have the gameplay and imagination of stale fish, I'm starting to wish more AAA Western devs would focus on gameplay instead of the tech.

Yeah Western game engines are the best in the gaming industry. I mean now you have so many Japanese developers using the Unreal Engine. However Capcom is one of the few Japanese companies that still makes good high end graphics engine. Their RE Engine is great. Resident Evil 7, 2 Remake, and Devil May Cry 5 all look terrific.

I am curious: where does Nintendo fits into gaming technology in terms of software compared to other Japanese developers? Above average or at the same level?

I wouldn't say worse, but they definitely don't put as much money behind their games as Western developers. There is an upside to doing this though, they cost less to make and don't have a super big blockbuster sales target required to keep the franchise and studio going, this also gives them creative freedom where western developers and publishers play it too safe with genres and designs to the point people complain all games are the same.

Be prepared for the usual trolls to "answer" this one.

Indeed, Capcom is the only exception.

Oh and in which world ND's known for graphics innovation or engine advancements? Their engine don't even have a level editor so to speak and relies on graphical techniques pioneered by other devs.

Hope you do know Monster Hunter World was build on NetFramework because dev is still not comfortable with RE engine at the time. Resident Evil 2 and DMCV proved Japanese dev is just as capable.

And Konami's incredible Fox engine powered MGSV and PES. Too bad Konami is not as involved with gaming development anymore.

Anyhow Japan market has shrunk, non AAA dev has no money to spent on cutting edge graphics as most games only opened to around 150k in Japan and usually 500k is considered a success. Even worse, Nintendo gamers there dont even buy 3rd party stuff most of the time and only buy nintendo product.

They are very picky about their games running well, and they know their limitations well, so I'd say above average.

Smaller budgets.

Language barriers even with coding.

All the talent are in the west.

LOL at claiming Japanese does gameplay better. They don’t. Those souls games are horrid and broken, but the fanboys like to pretend it is meant to be that hard. lol no.

xD Someone got salty by a game kicking their ass.

@Litchie: Because Souls/Bloobourne and Armored Core are terrible series.

From Software is famous for making broken and stupidly hard games for no freaking reason.

Has more to do with western studios being larger, comprised of people from all around the world, including Japan and pandering to the entire west, not just 1 place.

@ajstyles: You're just bad.

I would argue that Capcom and Sega have been making excellent games that run well. For that matter, Fox Engine was on the cutting edge as well.

Many Japanese developers and publishers have come a long way since last gen. Some of the worst performing games this generation have come from the west as well.

Kojima had to brought onboard western talent to develop Fox Engine. Actually they used to have an entire satellite western studio to oversee its development. Same was the case with Square Enix and Luminous Engine.

As I said, Capcom is the only exception. Though I do remember there's one Japanese company that made a very competent 3rd Party game engine, forgot its name. They showcased it with a demo featuring bunch of robots.

Anyhow glad many japan dev adopting UE4 and other engine for development. No more AA games looking like early ps3 titles in 2019 lol. Many games suffered, especially smaller jrpg titles.

I do hope Konami license the Fox Engine for all since Konami is not doing anything with it. The engine is incredible for photorealistic materials.

Japan had it's economic heyday in the 80's and were on the forefront of games from the minute they launched the NES, and Japanese game developers remained cutting edge through the 90's and even into the 00's. For whatever reason they went into a steep decline at some point in the mid 00's (maybe tied to macro economics of Japan, maybe tied to the disaster that was PS3 launch...). They definitely ceded the technological edge over to western devs. It was like they were stuck. Last gen was just sad, with Square and Capcom seeming almost totally lost (and Konami effectively abandoning games development entirely). This gen at least Square and Capcom seem a little better. They are back to being good developers. Better running game engines and providing quality 3rd party games with a unique character to them.

Nintendo for several gens in a row sells weak/cheap prior gen quality hardware, most of their games seem about a generation out of date and are focused on mascot fan service. On the bright side, I guess their games are designed for the hardware. So they don't try and push things very much. They are a very cheap and conservative company.

I find anime to be a horrible and ugly art style. I mostly avoid games with anime so I mostly avoid Japanese gaming. Back when I bought Nintendo consoles, I did enjoy Mario games. But that’s about it.

I've had mixed opinions on this particular topic for a while now. But I think overall the Japanese have been better storytellers over their use of the technology AT LEAST these days it's been that way.

Meh it's complicated.

Some Japansee developers are some arent, so it depends is the first answer.

Secondly it depend son time and energy and investment, some things work ebtter than others at a given climate and things like that... you can't chalk it all up to being one great idea versus another... etc...

So essentially there's a huge multivaried situation going on with a large number of factors that can shift the trajectory one way or another.

Honestly I remember that the best technology would come from Japan, DVDs, CDs, blyu ray for at least 20 years theh y were at the forefront of every technological advance I can think of...

Has that changed? Potnetially but at the same time I can't help but think there will be yet another Reannaissance in the technology form and alot of that will come through the typical channels a such as gaming tech.

There was an interesting article I read some time ago that mentioned that Japanese developers really struggled with the move to high fidelity computer generated graphics / animation etc. Ex. PS2 / N64 -> X360 / PS3. That's probably still the case to this day.

It was mostly because they simply didn't have the "talent" or resources and have had to play serious catch-up. The West had been working on high fidelity computer graphics in Hollywood for decades and to this day have that talent pool to pull from. Studios like Crytek, ND etc. have folks that have worked for Disney, Pixar, Illumination, DreamWorks, Framestore, Nickelodeon, Warner Bros etc. Japan has major animation studios as well but they are much more specific in animation style etc.

They have the talent, who do you think the western developers farm all the work to when they need cheap labor? The funny thing is that those Asian and Indian outsource studious are freaking good now too. I just don't think Japanese gamers care that much about the next graphics king if the game isn't fun so most of their resources probably get funneled to the gameplay/story side.

FF7 Remake and RE2 REmake look better than all western games imo japan is doing fine on technical level

I hated RE2 but sweet lord they did a great job with the art, especially the gore.

I wonder if its because all relevant programming languages are written in English? It doesn't matter how good you are with a second language, native speakers are always going to have a leg up.

@ajstyles: I don't like your words Mr. Demons Souls is a top five game of the decade for me. They might have milked it a bit much for my taste, but what isn't? And Armored Core has such a great "core" idea, they just have never nailed it.

But broken and bad... that's just wrong.

I actually welcome the approach of focusing more on the games instead of just pushing tech. Nintendo is a great example of this. Look at BOTW or Mario Odyssey. No ground breaking tech yet amazing games that millions bought and still love. Western AAA games are really pissing me off with all the gambling tactics used alongside of super flashy graphics.

I don't think FOX was a success. No developer ever wanted to license that engine from Konami. (Which is what they originally hoped to achieve while developing it.)

Theyre just bad with gameplay.

Look at DMC 5. Looks fine, but the gameplay is painfully repetitive and shallow.

FFXV: Looks super fine, but the gameplay is repetitive and shallow.

MGSV: looks fine, but the gameplay is repetitive and shallow.

Sekiro: Looks fine, but the gameplay is repetitive and shallow.

Persona 5: looks fine, but the gameplay is repetitive and shallow.

Japanese developers seem stuck in the past, which is both a good thing and a bad thing.

Funny, outside of Cyberpunk 2077 this was the best looking game on MS's stage:

If we're talking strictly gamepley, it looked better than everything else shown at MS's conference.

RE:Engine is the only one worth a mention...... RE:2 remake looks amazing and 60fps to boot.

Short answer... Yes.

Long answer..... Yeah. :P

I wouldn’t say so no. Just different priorities. Japan’s studios do better on things like hitboxes/hurt box centric gameplay. It’s why things like Devil May Cry feel fantastic and the west’s action games, welllllllllllll the proof is in the pudding on that one.

They get more out of their games when aiming for 60faps, than western console games ever do.

A lot of big expensive looking western games tend to have poor controls, mad input lag, rigid or sluggish movement, or shallow systems. It’s very easy to look good when all your goals are just that, look good. Major difference when you have to make your game play well and look pleasant.

Plus I can’t think of too many Japanese devs who release games as fundamentally broken the way Dice has, or Bethesda has, or Obsidian has.

Not to say the West isn’t capable of good games. Hitman and Doom exist. Notice how those aren’t the lookers either.

@boxrekt: Why would I care what you like?

Dumbest comment I read all day

Considering that we are comparing the development of two continents to just one country, I would say Japan is doing amazingly well. They just don't have the capital to invest into bleeding edge tech as western developers can. That's why I believe Japanese devs are trending more toward mobile/handheld. It's the ability to do more with less. The west has the "go big or go home" kind of mentality to them. And I can't blame them cause the west has so much capital and investment to take huge risks. In short, the saying "you need money to make money" seems the best fit here. Western devs are risk takers cause they have huge amounts of funds. The Japanese are being frugal; which is great if you want to save money, but has greatly handicapped them in terms of technological developments.

This. OP's question would be like asking: "Are Western developers bad with gameplay?" Most Western and Japanese developers just have different priorities. With some exceptions, of course (there are a few gameplay-centric Western devs and a few tech-centric Japanese devs).

Not just Western talent, but also talent from other Asian countries. Japanese tech companies are starting to adapt the "brain drain" strategy of Western tech companies, bringing in the best and brightest minds from across the world. After all, America's tech boom is largely driven by the "brain drain" of immigrant talent from Asia and Europe, e.g. the majority of Silicon Valley talent are foreigners. So it only makes sense for Japanese tech companies to also "brain drain" foreign talent from other parts of Asia, Europe and America. However, this is hampered by Japan's strict immigration policy (partly due to xenophobia from older generations), though they're slowly loosening up (but still nowhere near as open as most Western countries).

I think the Japanese tech company you're referring to is Silicon Studio. They demonstrated an impressive engine a few years ago, called the Mizuchi Engine. But I haven't really heard anything about it since then. I get the feeling they may have just given up on it. Right now, Capcom is definitely the king of Japanese game engines, with RE Engine. That's the only one that can compete with the best Western game engines.

America and Europe are both western and at this point in time western has much better technology when it comes to gaming. They are simply better and no Asian country comes close. I mean most of the well known engineers, researchers are all western apart from may be Cevat brothers (could also be considered western).

Yeah, it's Mizuchi. Now I remember, don't know what happened to it.

Nvidia and ATI (now AMD) were/are founded and run by Chinese/Taiwanese immigrants. Google and Microsoft are currently run by Indian immigrants. Apple was founded and run by a Syrian/Arab. Crytek is founded and run by Turks. Ubisoft's Dunia Engine was also created by Turks. PowerVR was founded and run by Iranian immigrants. Naughty Dog is co-run by an Israeli immigrant. And there are plenty more examples. And like I mentioned previously, foreigners (especially from Asia) make up a majority of Silicon Valley's work force.

My point is that Western studios are very diverse, compared to relatively homogeneous Japanese studios. Some years ago, Hideo Kojima praised the diversity of Western studios and criticised the homogeneity of Japanese studios. That's why he hired foreign talent when he began making Fox Engine, to bring some of that diversity to his Japanese studio. He realised that diversity and immigration are strengths, and that nationalism, ethnocentrism and xenophobia are hindrances. At least in terms of tech industries.

EDIT: I just remembered there are impressive-looking AAA PC games from Chinese and Korean studios. NoodleFighter has created a few threads showcasing AAA PC games from China and South Korea. Some of them look comparable to top-tier Western AAA games. But unlike Western devs who try to scale their games for consoles, Chinese/Korean devs have the advantage of developing exclusively for PC without being limited by consoles.

Japanse developers are obssessed with immortality...

... Yeah weird hting... but what happens in Japan is they're all obssessed with complete wholeness and a line through time that is the complete immortal being with perfect rest/recovery/diet/etc and obviously

no western infleunces of any kind.

Consequently they do everything by flow and energy where it's just a completely in er uninterrupted path/emotion through time and space... the older generation was pretty business heavy but they wanted

their next generation of children to be like the first to live forever and stuff....

.....But yeah that means everything they do is weird including anime and other things that come from Japan theres like no ability to communicate with any of them and basically anyone would read this post

and think I'm crazy but they probably haven't actually met anyone from Japan and really gotten any insight it's not like they would talk about all this openly.

Anyway, weird stuff.

You're getting the gist of argument. I was specifically talking about gaming technology not creatives or the overall technology landscape. The only related people you mentioned are Lisa Su and Jensen Huang, still immigrants working in western companies doesn't change the fact that the technology it self is western in a sense, it's owned by western companies. When I say companies had to brought western talent is, people that worked in western companies or on western technology. I mean it's a fairly common phenomenon, whenever you see a job opening for Asian/Middle Eastern company in domains that are currently dominated by western countries you see them specifically asking for experience in the western world - that's what I mean when I say western technology.

Oh and I don't know why you brought other Asian countries in to the mix. Japan is THE MOST ADVANCED ASIAN country and in many areas are ahead of the west but gaming technology/isn't one of them. At this point in time Asian countries are behind western countries for gaming technology and it will be a while before that changes.

They've been pretty bad when it comes to PC, but that's mainly because PC wasn't a thing and they were self-contained towards hitting console hardware.

Capcom was probably the first big Japanese company to make a concentrated effort, something of a game-changer, and really, the only good thing to come out of the ill-fated PC Gaming Alliance.

1. Along with Lisa Su and Jensen Huang, there are also the likes of ATI founders Lee Ka Lau, Francis Lau, Benny Lau, and Kwok Yuen Ho, Google CEO Sundar Pichai, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Apple founder Steve Jobs, Crytek founders Cevat/Avni/Faruk Yerli, Dunia Engine creator Kirmaan Aboobaker, PowerVR founder Hossein Yassaie, Naughty Dog VP Neil Druckmann, etc.
2. In this day and age of globalisation, technology can no longer be described as "Western" or "Asian" or "American" or "Japanese". Technology is now global. Western tech companies have for a long time benefited greatly from "brain drain", using financial incentives to attract many of the best and brightest talent from Asia to work for Western tech companies. And in more recent times, Asian tech companies are starting to do the same, a reverse "brain drain" from the West and other parts of Asia.
3. In terms of job applications, if your CV contains work for a major Japanese/Korean/Chinese tech company, then that's no less prestigious than having worked for a major Western tech company.
4. I was referring to threads posted by NoodleFighter on SW last year. Some of the Chinese/Korean AAA games he posted looked at least as good as top-tier AAA games from the West, and better-looking than top-tier AAA games from Japan at the time. Due to China & Korea being PC-centric markets, it's only a matter of time before they overtake the West in gaming tech, as Tencent is already the world's biggest game company and Chinese/Korean devs are starting to get bigger budgets for high-end PC exclusives, unlike Western devs who are forced to scale down for weaker consoles.
5. It's debatable to what extent Japan is still the most advanced Asian country. While it still is the most advanced in many areas, it's being beaten by other Asian countries like Korea, China and Taiwan in a number of other areas. For example, Samsung is bigger than any Japanese tech company, and Tencent is bigger than any Japanese game company (or any Western game company, for that matter).

1. Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadella, Steve Jobs and Neil Druckmann are not even remotely close. Two of them are executives and one is a creative lead/writer, again not directly or even indirectly related to gaming technology. Out of Crytek Founders only Cevat had a background in games/graphics technology - the two brothers were there to support him morally/financially and administratively. Turkey is also past European.

2. True and false as well. Most of the tech companies in the world are western and have their headquarters in the west. It's irrelevant what nationalities work for those companies, the point is they own it. Your point is the talent behind these companies are diverse, my point is those companies are western companies and most of the Asian companies have to license technology from those companies or follow their lead.

3. Nobody said otherwise. You're neglecting the point, one has an edge while the other doesn't. The fact still remains that Asian companies are catching up, they didn't surpass or have equivalent technology.