Are simulators games?

I think they aren't. Serious sims such as iRacing, rFactor, DCS Warthog, ect. are not games in my opinion. They have no story, aren't accessible and their primary use is for serious training which could benefit real-life careers. The only exception to this rule are games like Arma which do have a story and you don't need to be a military expert to play them.

Discuss.

Wait, games need stories? Well, screw sports games, I guess.

I think they aren't. Serious sims such as iRacing, rFactor, DCS Warthog, ect. are not games in my opinion. They have no story, aren't accessible and their primary use is for serious training which could benefit real-life careers. The only exception to this rule are games like Arma which do have a story and you don't need to be a military expert to play them.

Discuss.

nameless12345

Games are games including simulators. Pacman, Asteroids, Dig Dug, etc don't have stories. But, they're just as much games as simulators. Simulators may have a realistic aspect to them. That doesn't preclude them from being games since there are those who derive enjoyment from them including yours truly.

Wait, games need stories? Well, screw sports games, I guess.

lundy86_4

So what would you considered mechwarrior?

Most people play simulators because they find them fun, not for "training."

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I think they aren't. Serious sims such as iRacing, rFactor, DCS Warthog, ect. are not games in my opinion. They have no story, aren't accessible and their primary use is for serious training which could benefit real-life careers. The only exception to this rule are games like Arma which do have a story and you don't need to be a military expert to play them.

Discuss.

jun_aka_pekto

Games are games including simulators. Pacman, Asteroids, Dig Dug, etc don't have stories. But, they're just as much games as simulators. Simulators may have a realistic aspect to them. That doesn't preclude them from being games since there are those who derive enjoyment from them including yours truly.

Well, technically anything that involves interaction could be seen as a game of sorts. But sims like flight simulators, race simulators, driving simulators, boat and train simulators, ect. serve a specific purpose - not to entertain but more as a training tool.

For example racing games such as Gran Turismo, Forza and Need For Speed are still games whereas iRacing, rFactor and the like aren't games anymore but can be seen as serious racing tools.

Lots of games don't have stories and are games.

Accessibility shouldn't disqualify them, hard games aren't accessible but are still games.

I don't play simulators for training, I play them for fun. Is The Sims going to train you for real life?

Well, technically anything that involves interaction could be seen as a game of sorts. But sims like flight simulators, race simulators, driving simulators, boat and train simulators, ect. serve a specific purpose - not to entertain but more as a training tool.

For example racing games such as Gran Turismo, Forza and Need For Speed are still games whereas iRacing, rFactor and the like aren't games anymore but can be seen as serious racing tools.

nameless12345

To back up my claim: the maker of netKar himself said that netKar is a simulator and not a game. Likewise, DCS simulators are used for military training whereas VBS 2 is a special version of Arma that focuses on real military tactics and costs thousands per copy.

Lots of games don't have stories and are games.

Accessibility shouldn't disqualify them, hard games aren't accessible but are still games.

I don't play simulators for training, I play them for fun. Is The Sims going to train you for real life?

mitu123

The Sims is pretty much a (unrealistic) game made for entertainment purposes. Just because it has "Sims" in the title doesn't make it a real sim.

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]Well, technically anything that involves interaction could be seen as a game of sorts. But sims like flight simulators, race simulators, driving simulators, boat and train simulators, ect. serve a specific purpose - not to entertain but more as a training tool.

For example racing games such as Gran Turismo, Forza and Need For Speed are still games whereas iRacing, rFactor and the like aren't games anymore but can be seen as serious racing tools.

cain006

But then what's fun is subjective. You can have fun digging holes for example :P

Is Heavy Rain a game? SAGE_OF_FIRE

Interactive movie :)

Yeah, it has a story and is accessible enough to be called a game.

[QUOTE="mitu123"]

Lots of games don't have stories and are games.

Accessibility shouldn't disqualify them, hard games aren't accessible but are still games.

I don't play simulators for training, I play them for fun. Is The Sims going to train you for real life?

nameless12345

The Sims is pretty much a (unrealistic) game made for entertainment purposes. Just because it has "Sims" in the title doesn't make it a real sim.

So what would you considered mechwarrior?

GD1551

Game. There are no real-life mechs and we therefore don't know how accurate the simulation is. And there is still a storyline if I'm not mistaken.

Yes they are. I play flight and racing sims and while they have the potential to to used as tools, I and most people play them as games to have a fun, realistic experience.

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

So what would you considered mechwarrior?

nameless12345

Game. There are no real-life mechs and we therefore don't know how accurate the simulation is. And there is still a storyline if I'm not mistaken.

It's actually supposed to simulate mechs. Rather than the standard action approach, which is why things like weight, heat, weapon slots and all this stuff is taken into consideration.

Yes they are. I play flight and racing sims and while they have the potential to to used as tools, I and most people play them as games to have a fun, realistic experience.

agpickle

I'm not saying you can't play them for fun but the initial purpose wasn't as such with quite some sims.

games need stories? games need to be accessible? oh yeah..this generation of gaming just keeps getting better :|lawlessx

I suppose you only play inaccessible games without any storyline whatsoever then ;)

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

So what would you considered mechwarrior?

GD1551

Game. There are no real-life mechs and we therefore don't know how accurate the simulation is. And there is still a storyline if I'm not mistaken.

It's actually supposed to simulate mechs. Rather than the standard action approach, which is why things like weight, heat, weapon slots and all this stuff is taken into consideration.

Like I said - there are no real mechs so we don't know how well does it simulate them.

What is with the emphasis on story nonsense?Devil-Itachi

Not necesarily emphasis but I expect atleast a basic storyline from a modern game (counting out sports games).

Well, technically anything that involves interaction could be seen as a game of sorts. But sims like flight simulators, race simulators, driving simulators, boat and train simulators, ect. serve a specific purpose - not to entertain but more as a training tool.

For example racing games such as Gran Turismo, Forza and Need For Speed are still games whereas iRacing, rFactor and the like aren't games anymore but can be seen as serious racing tools.

nameless12345

When you have opponents or missions to accomplish, that's good enough to qualify as objectives for games. It's just a matter of the learning curve (and the physics approximating the real thing) being harder on some games than others. I've seen a few purist flight simmers who feel insulted if I referred to MS Flight Simulator or X-Plane 9 as a game. Oh well. I think they're games. Heck they even have a game rating (mostly rated E) on the box.

Dogfighting in a flight sim is not much different than playing other games online. Of course, having a working knowledge of aerodynamics and energy management would be highly appreciated. But, in the end, they're still games.

I do tire of the complexities of simulators sometimes. That's why I also play more "traditional" games on the PC and Wii.

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Well, technically anything that involves interaction could be seen as a game of sorts. But sims like flight simulators, race simulators, driving simulators, boat and train simulators, ect. serve a specific purpose - not to entertain but more as a training tool.

For example racing games such as Gran Turismo, Forza and Need For Speed are still games whereas iRacing, rFactor and the like aren't games anymore but can be seen as serious racing tools.

jun_aka_pekto

When you have opponents or missions to accomplish, that's good enough to qualify as objectives for games. It's just a matter of the learning curve (and the physics approximating the real thing) being harder on some games than others. I've seen a few purist flight simmers who feel insulted if I referred to MS Flight Simulator or X-Plane 9 as a game. Oh well. I think they're games. Heck they even have a game rating (mostly rated E) on the box.

Dogfighting in a flight sim is not much different than playing other games online. Of course, having a working knowledge of aerodynamics and energy management would be highly appreciated. But, in the end, they're still games.

I do tire of the complexities of simulators sometimes. That's why I also play more "traditional" games on the PC and Wii.

Flight Simulator might be a slight exception to the rule because it's pretty accessible with all it's aids. And DCS Warthog has a so-called "game mode", but that isn't enough for it to pass as a game imo.

They are games since they're made for entertainment. Aside from iRacing none of those games is realistic enough to serve as real training tool and even in case of iRacing 99% of users are just gamers who play for pure fun.

Again, no game you've named with exception of iRacing is actually used as real professional simulator. Som of them are good enough that their engines are bought and then heavily remodelled for simulators. Stuff like Digital Combat Simulator is actually a gamified version of real simulator.
Plus I wonder how you could defend your theory when it comes to simulators of machines from WWI, WWII and Korean War.

Overall, this thread seems like a pretty weakly hidden shot at pc games. "If your games are too complex they no longer count ;(". Sorry, simulators are one of the oldest gaming genres around and it's hard to find more PC-like genre than this.

[QUOTE="Devil-Itachi"]What is with the emphasis on story nonsense?nameless12345

Not necesarily emphasis but I expect atleast a basic storyline from a modern game (counting out sports games).

why can you count out sports games? :|

[QUOTE="Devil-Itachi"]What is with the emphasis on story nonsense?nameless12345

Not necesarily emphasis but I expect atleast a basic storyline from a modern game (counting out sports games).

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Devil-Itachi"]What is with the emphasis on story nonsense?AdrianWerner

Not necesarily emphasis but I expect atleast a basic storyline from a modern game (counting out sports games).

Or Demon/Dark Souls :D

Overall, this thread seems like a pretty weakly hidden shot at pc games. "If your games are too complex they no longer count ;(". Sorry, simulators are one of the oldest gaming genres around and it's hard to find more PC-like genre than this.

AdrianWerner

Pretty much this.

A game--as a challenge--yes, they are as most simulators are designed around a sense of progression that is typically involved in a game, but also delivering a complex experience/simulation.

Story and accessibility have nothing to do with whether or not something is a game, and games have, besides entertainment, also been serving educational purposes for a very long time.

So yes, they are games.

Wait, games need stories? Well, screw sports games, I guess.

lundy86_4

[QUOTE="jun_aka_pekto"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I think they aren't. Serious sims such as iRacing, rFactor, DCS Warthog, ect. are not games in my opinion. They have no story, aren't accessible and their primary use is for serious training which could benefit real-life careers. The only exception to this rule are games like Arma which do have a story and you don't need to be a military expert to play them.

Discuss.

nameless12345

Games are games including simulators. Pacman, Asteroids, Dig Dug, etc don't have stories. But, they're just as much games as simulators. Simulators may have a realistic aspect to them. That doesn't preclude them from being games since there are those who derive enjoyment from them including yours truly.

Well, technically anything that involves interaction could be seen as a game of sorts. But sims like flight simulators, race simulators, driving simulators, boat and train simulators, ect. serve a specific purpose - not to entertain but more as a training tool.

For example racing games such as Gran Turismo, Forza and Need For Speed are still games whereas iRacing, rFactor and the like aren't games anymore but can be seen as serious racing tools.

[QUOTE="lawlessx"]games need stories? games need to be accessible? oh yeah..this generation of gaming just keeps getting better :|nameless12345

I suppose you only play inaccessible games without any storyline whatsoever then ;)

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Devil-Itachi"]What is with the emphasis on story nonsense?AdrianWerner

Not necesarily emphasis but I expect atleast a basic storyline from a modern game (counting out sports games).

Those usually have a very basic story or atleast are accessible enough.

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="jun_aka_pekto"]

Games are games including simulators. Pacman, Asteroids, Dig Dug, etc don't have stories. But, they're just as much games as simulators. Simulators may have a realistic aspect to them. That doesn't preclude them from being games since there are those who derive enjoyment from them including yours truly.

DragonfireXZ95

Well, technically anything that involves interaction could be seen as a game of sorts. But sims like flight simulators, race simulators, driving simulators, boat and train simulators, ect. serve a specific purpose - not to entertain but more as a training tool.

For example racing games such as Gran Turismo, Forza and Need For Speed are still games whereas iRacing, rFactor and the like aren't games anymore but can be seen as serious racing tools.

No, GT and Forza are fun racers whereas iRacing and rFactor are just boring sims :P

They are better simulators but not better games.

[QUOTE="DragonfireXZ95"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Well, technically anything that involves interaction could be seen as a game of sorts. But sims like flight simulators, race simulators, driving simulators, boat and train simulators, ect. serve a specific purpose - not to entertain but more as a training tool.

For example racing games such as Gran Turismo, Forza and Need For Speed are still games whereas iRacing, rFactor and the like aren't games anymore but can be seen as serious racing tools.

nameless12345

No, GT and Forza are fun racers whereas iRacing and rFactor are just boring sims :P

They are better simulators but not better games.

Nice opinion but doesn't make it fact. "Fun" games are subjective no matter how many agree or disagree. I thought playing Nascar 2003 from Papyrus was the most fun I've had with a racing game, ever. Does that mean it's the same for everyone that's played it?

Yes they are games, end of topic.

Racing sims and Military sims are just as much games as arcadey games, they are just more realistic, something some people enjoy.

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Game. There are no real-life mechs and we therefore don't know how accurate the simulation is. And there is still a storyline if I'm not mistaken.

nameless12345

It's actually supposed to simulate mechs. Rather than the standard action approach, which is why things like weight, heat, weapon slots and all this stuff is taken into consideration.

Like I said - there are no real mechs so we don't know how well does it simulate them.

So? It still simulates how the mecha would control in that world. Saying something like Steel Battalion is not a sim is just wrong.

Those usually have a very basic story or atleast are accessible enough.

nameless12345

And I don't see what accessibility has to do with software being game or not. You're bassicaly making a point here that only simplistic gameplay can be considered games.

Using your logic we could just as well only label casual games as games and remove stuff like Dark Souls from games list.

No, GT and Forza are fun racers whereas iRacing and rFactor are just boring sims :P

They are better simulators but not better games.

nameless12345