Best type of RPG

  • 97 results
  • 1
  • 2

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for IceBlazerX
IceBlazerX

3286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#51 IceBlazerX
Member since 2010 • 3286 Posts

[QUOTE="dercoo"]

[QUOTE="IceBlazerX"] So it's basically what FF13 is?spookykid143

FF13 was almost completely traditional turnbased, except for a special. So it still turnbased.

Did you even play it?

Obviously not....
Avatar image for skanjos
skanjos

647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#52 skanjos
Member since 2006 • 647 Posts

ffxiii isnt turnbased.... ffx is turn based. i prefer strategy rpgs like disgaea/fft/fire emblem ,and my 2nd favorite is turn based rpgs like persona/suikoden/breath of fire etc. i hate action rpgs like kingdom hearts/all wrpgs etc.the only action rpg i liked is demons souls from this gen ,also i hate innovation in rpgs ,i want them turn based classic,weapon upgrades,worldmap,random encounters. the only thing i want to change is the story.and i dont care if it will be a save the princess or kingdom theme as long as i enjoy it.

innovation is the reason rpgs suck these days, they should have stayed oldschool,the kids should go play fps ,rpg's shouldnt turn to fps's ,mass effect....

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#53 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

real time, since they can be multiplayer.

hybrid versions are a close 2nd.

and turn based are in a distant third.

Avatar image for ExESGO
ExESGO

1895

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#54 ExESGO
Member since 2010 • 1895 Posts
[QUOTE="CajunShooter"]Poll is major fail for not having Strategy LoG-Sacrament
...strategy rpg's are usually turn based.

or hybrid.
Avatar image for DragonfireXZ95
DragonfireXZ95

26712

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#55 DragonfireXZ95
Member since 2005 • 26712 Posts
Anything The Witcher. :P
Avatar image for IceBlazerX
IceBlazerX

3286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#56 IceBlazerX
Member since 2010 • 3286 Posts
[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

real time, since they can be multiplayer.

hybrid versions are a close 2nd.

and turn based are in a distant third.

Multiplayer is good?
Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#57 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

EDIT: whoops double post

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#58 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="LoG-Sacrament"][QUOTE="CajunShooter"]Poll is major fail for not having Strategy ExESGO
...strategy rpg's are usually turn based.

or hybrid.

what is a strategy RPG? like what is an example of one? Cant think ive ever really played an RPG that has heavy strategy in combat... usually the strategy is represented in the character building.

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#59 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

real time, since they can be multiplayer.

hybrid versions are a close 2nd.

and turn based are in a distant third.

IceBlazerX

Multiplayer is good?

I think so... they certainly have the most replayability.

Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#60 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="ExESGO"][QUOTE="LoG-Sacrament"] ...strategy rpg's are usually turn based.markinthedark

or hybrid.

what is a strategy RPG? like what is an example of one? Cant think ive ever really played an RPG that has heavy strategy in combat... usually the strategy is represented in the character building.

Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Franchise, Valkyria Chronicles, Disgaea, King's Bounty those are some examples of strategy RPGs.

Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#61 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="IceBlazerX"][QUOTE="markinthedark"]

real time, since they can be multiplayer.

hybrid versions are a close 2nd.

and turn based are in a distant third.

markinthedark

Multiplayer is good?

I think so... they certainly have the most replayability.

Not if they're story driven. I can do without multi-player in a RPG for the most part.

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#62 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="ExESGO"] or hybrid.jasonharris48

what is a strategy RPG? like what is an example of one? Cant think ive ever really played an RPG that has heavy strategy in combat... usually the strategy is represented in the character building.

Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Franchise, Valkyria Chronicles, Disgaea, King's Bounty those are some examples of strategy RPGs.

I think i played final fantasy tactics... but none of the others. If i am remembering it correctly i would consider it a straight up strategy game rather than a strategy rpg.

Avatar image for Seiki_sands
Seiki_sands

1973

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 13

User Lists: 0

#63 Seiki_sands
Member since 2003 • 1973 Posts

No particular preference as far as overall relationship to the game. It depends how much strategy and tension are present in the battles. Are your foes dangerous or canon fodder, do you have to save your best attacks and items for a good opening or can you spam them mindlessly, do you have to create that opening with a correct combination of status ailments, etc., etc.

If I have a bias, it is towards hybrid systems I suppose. Since they usually imply paying attention during the entire battle, rather than just your own turn, and as I'm a little impatient...sometimes making me not be lazy and interrupt an attack or two is a good thing.

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#64 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="IceBlazerX"] Multiplayer is good?jasonharris48

I think so... they certainly have the most replayability.

Not if they're story driven. I can do without multi-player in a RPG for the most part.

Story driven RPGs i find usually give the best experience... but ones that arent story driven tend to offer the most replayability, at least for me. I like meticulously planning out different character builds and bringing them to fruition. But story driven RPGs do tend to offer a more engrossing, albeit shorter, experience.

Personally i think i have to give to edge to the games that keep me going for months, but i do enjoy both greatly.

Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#65 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

what is a strategy RPG? like what is an example of one? Cant think ive ever really played an RPG that has heavy strategy in combat... usually the strategy is represented in the character building.

markinthedark

Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Franchise, Valkyria Chronicles, Disgaea, King's Bounty those are some examples of strategy RPGs.

I think i played final fantasy tactics... but none of the others. If i am remembering it correctly i would consider it a straight up strategy game rather than a strategy rpg.

No. Civilization, Star Craft, Supreme Commander would be Strategy games. There is a huge difference between the two types.

Avatar image for abuabed
abuabed

6606

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#66 abuabed
Member since 2005 • 6606 Posts
I love both of them equally depending on the game.
Avatar image for vashkey
vashkey

33781

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 135

User Lists: 25

#67 vashkey
Member since 2005 • 33781 Posts

I like both although if it's real time it better feel like a good shooter, an action adventure or what ever else. It kinda defeats the purpose of leaving turn based combat when the real time combat feels clunky, robotic and just not fun. Kingdom Hears and Mass Effect did it right.

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#68 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"] Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Franchise, Valkyria Chronicles, Disgaea, King's Bounty those are some examples of strategy RPGs.

jasonharris48

I think i played final fantasy tactics... but none of the others. If i am remembering it correctly i would consider it a straight up strategy game rather than a strategy rpg.

No. Civilization, Star Craft, Supreme Commander would be Strategy games. There is a huge difference between the two types.

yea i really havent played any of the games you mentioned. I went and youtubed final fantasy tactics to jog my memory... and I suppose it doesnt fit the mold of a straight up strategy game. Its just not the style of game that comes to mind when i think of RPGs... im not too good at game classification i suppose.

But at the same time i think there is a huge difference between civ and SC.

Avatar image for IceBlazerX
IceBlazerX

3286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#69 IceBlazerX
Member since 2010 • 3286 Posts
[QUOTE="jasonharris48"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

Multiplayer is good?IceBlazerX

I think so... they certainly have the most replayability.

Not if they're story driven. I can do without multi-player in a RPG for the most part.

Same here. I know thios guy that's poured 350 hours into FO3. I've pured 120 in FF13 myseld I poured 80 into Oblivion.
Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#70 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

I think so... they certainly have the most replayability.

IceBlazerX

Not if they're story driven. I can do without multi-player in a RPG for the most part.

Same here. I know thios guy that's poured 350 hours into FO3. I've pured 120 in FF13 myseld I poured 80 into Oblivion.

The only RPGS with multi-player I invested time in were the Monster Hunter titles and Phantasy Star Online on the gamecube.

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#71 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

I think so... they certainly have the most replayability.

IceBlazerX

Not if they're story driven. I can do without multi-player in a RPG for the most part.

Same here. I know thios guy that's poured 350 hours into FO3. I've pured 120 in FF13 myseld I poured 80 into Oblivion.

Are fallout 3 and oblivion story driven though? I didnt really consider either of them story driven... as most of my playtime was completely independent of the main story.

cant comment on ff13 tho.

Avatar image for topsemag55
topsemag55

19063

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 16

User Lists: 0

#72 topsemag55
Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

RPGs have always been my favorite, in particular WRPGs. As long as the storyline is good, gameplay is decent, and it's relatively free of gamebreaker bugs, I'll play any kind.

Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#73 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="IceBlazerX"][QUOTE="jasonharris48"] Not if they're story driven. I can do without multi-player in a RPG for the most part.

markinthedark

Same here. I know thios guy that's poured 350 hours into FO3. I've pured 120 in FF13 myseld I poured 80 into Oblivion.

Are fallout 3 and oblivion story driven though? I didnt really consider either of them story driven... as most of my playtime was completely independent of the main story.

cant comment on ff13 tho.

I hated ES4 so I can't speak on it's behalf but FO3 is kind of story driven (even though the main plot is weak)

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#74 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="IceBlazerX"][QUOTE="jasonharris48"] Not if they're story driven. I can do without multi-player in a RPG for the most part.

jasonharris48

Same here. I know thios guy that's poured 350 hours into FO3. I've pured 120 in FF13 myseld I poured 80 into Oblivion.

The only RPGS with multi-player I invested time in were the Monster Hunter titles and Phantasy Star Online on the gamecube.

Yea all the ones ive invested time in were on PC.... like diablo... and MMOs. Consoles are rather lackluster for multiplayer RPGs.

Borderlands was ok though.

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#75 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="IceBlazerX"] Same here. I know thios guy that's poured 350 hours into FO3. I've pured 120 in FF13 myseld I poured 80 into Oblivion.jasonharris48

Are fallout 3 and oblivion story driven though? I didnt really consider either of them story driven... as most of my playtime was completely independent of the main story.

cant comment on ff13 tho.

I hated ES4 so I can't speak on it's behalf but FO3 is kind of story driven (even though the main plot is weak)

how can you hate oblivion? especially if you liked fallout 3? just really like shooters or something?

Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#76 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"]

[QUOTE="IceBlazerX"] Same here. I know thios guy that's poured 350 hours into FO3. I've pured 120 in FF13 myseld I poured 80 into Oblivion.markinthedark

The only RPGS with multi-player I invested time in were the Monster Hunter titles and Phantasy Star Online on the gamecube.

Yea all the ones ive invested time in were on PC.... like diablo... and MMOs. Consoles are rather lackluster for multiplayer RPGs.

Borderlands was ok though.

I wouldn't consider Borderlands a RPG. It was more of a FPS with light RPG elements

Avatar image for abuabed
abuabed

6606

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#77 abuabed
Member since 2005 • 6606 Posts
The only RPGS with multi-player I invested time in were the Monster Hunter titles and Phantasy Star Online on the gamecube.jasonharris48
Thumbs up for anyone who plays MH titles.
Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#78 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

Are fallout 3 and oblivion story driven though? I didnt really consider either of them story driven... as most of my playtime was completely independent of the main story.

cant comment on ff13 tho.

markinthedark

I hated ES4 so I can't speak on it's behalf but FO3 is kind of story driven (even though the main plot is weak)

how can you hate oblivion? especially if you liked fallout 3? just really like shooters or something?

Actually I do not care for FPS titles for the most part. As for ES4 it was really boring especially considering I owned the 360 version (so no mod support :cry: ). Also it just wasn't as good as ES3 and Daggerfalls.

Avatar image for simpsonrussel
simpsonrussel

25

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#79 simpsonrussel
Member since 2010 • 25 Posts
Generally i prffere to play real time based games , but after seeing all this discussion here my mindst has now changed so far and try to look out about other quality of games. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#80 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"]The only RPGS with multi-player I invested time in were the Monster Hunter titles and Phantasy Star Online on the gamecube.abuabed
Thumbs up for anyone who plays MH titles.

Right on!

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#81 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"] The only RPGS with multi-player I invested time in were the Monster Hunter titles and Phantasy Star Online on the gamecube.

jasonharris48

Yea all the ones ive invested time in were on PC.... like diablo... and MMOs. Consoles are rather lackluster for multiplayer RPGs.

Borderlands was ok though.

I wouldn't consider Borderlands a RPG. It was more of a FPS with light RPG elements

i would probably consider FF tactics a strategy game with light RPG elements. But i think one of the main problems is i really dont know which games fall where because the lines are often blurred.

Avatar image for jasonharris48
jasonharris48

21441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#82 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

Yea all the ones ive invested time in were on PC.... like diablo... and MMOs. Consoles are rather lackluster for multiplayer RPGs.

Borderlands was ok though.

markinthedark

I wouldn't consider Borderlands a RPG. It was more of a FPS with light RPG elements

i would probably consider FF tactics a strategy game with light RPG elements. But i think one of the main problems is i really dont know which games fall where because the lines are often blurred.

Actually FF Tactics in pretty in depth when it comes to RPGelements (shallow compared to Tactics Ogre though in some aspects). Tactics offer more depth in its customization compared to a lot of current gen RPGs. Borderlands on the other hand is just a FPS with a looting system and shallow elements that also felt tacked on.

Avatar image for markinthedark
markinthedark

3676

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#83 markinthedark
Member since 2005 • 3676 Posts

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="jasonharris48"] I wouldn't consider Borderlands a RPG. It was more of a FPS with light RPG elements

jasonharris48

i would probably consider FF tactics a strategy game with light RPG elements. But i think one of the main problems is i really dont know which games fall where because the lines are often blurred.

Actually FF Tactics in pretty in depth when it comes to RPGelements (shallow compared to Tactics Ogre though in some aspects). Tactics offer more depth in its customization compared to a lot of current gen RPGs.

will have to take your word for it. Was a long time ago i played it.

Avatar image for ZippySlappy
ZippySlappy

2664

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#84 ZippySlappy
Member since 2009 • 2664 Posts
Pokemonz.
Avatar image for IceBlazerX
IceBlazerX

3286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#85 IceBlazerX
Member since 2010 • 3286 Posts

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="IceBlazerX"] Same here. I know thios guy that's poured 350 hours into FO3. I've pured 120 in FF13 myseld I poured 80 into Oblivion.jasonharris48

Are fallout 3 and oblivion story driven though? I didnt really consider either of them story driven... as most of my playtime was completely independent of the main story.

cant comment on ff13 tho.

I hated ES4 so I can't speak on it's behalf but FO3 is kind of story driven (even though the main plot is weak)

It is. If you want to play for story you won't find FO3 to be the game for you. Games like FF13 and Dragon Age are.
Avatar image for AdobeArtist
AdobeArtist

25184

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#86 AdobeArtist  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 25184 Posts

Question(s):

What is the difference between ME1 and ME2's combat? Can you "pause" the game in both? Do you control multiple characters (PC exclusive feature in ME1 to my knowledge) in ME2 as well?

NaveedLife

Yes, you could pause the action in both games with the radial menu. The main difference in combat between the two games would be that ME2's aiming was less reliant on the stats system, which was streamlined to focus more on technology & power ability trees. This made the combat smoother being now based on player free aiming mechanics.

And you did control a party of 3. You didn't control who they shot at, but could assign their usage of their given powers in combat against the enemy you wanted, so pairing your tech abilities with their biotics for combo effects - just as one example.

Avatar image for deactivated-5d6e91f5c147a
deactivated-5d6e91f5c147a

26108

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 28

User Lists: 0

#87 deactivated-5d6e91f5c147a
Member since 2008 • 26108 Posts
I'm a fan of turn-based.
Avatar image for IceBlazerX
IceBlazerX

3286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#88 IceBlazerX
Member since 2010 • 3286 Posts
I'm a fan of turn-based.siLVURcross
So am I. It's glad to know lots of people are opened minded here.
Avatar image for DJ-Lafleur
DJ-Lafleur

35604

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#89 DJ-Lafleur
Member since 2007 • 35604 Posts

Turn-based and Action RPG for me.

I also like Fire Emblem for Stategy RPG.

Avatar image for Yangire
Yangire

8795

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#90 Yangire
Member since 2010 • 8795 Posts

Turn-based and Action RPG for me.

I also like Fire Emblem for Stategy RPG.

DJ-Lafleur

Tactical RPGs are turn-based, I don't understand why people are acting like it's something different.

Avatar image for IceBlazerX
IceBlazerX

3286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#91 IceBlazerX
Member since 2010 • 3286 Posts
[QUOTE="Yangire"]

[QUOTE="DJ-Lafleur"]

Turn-based and Action RPG for me.

I also like Fire Emblem for Stategy RPG.

Tactical RPGs are turn-based, I don't understand why people are acting like it's something different.

D: FF isn't turned based is it?
Avatar image for NAPK1NS
NAPK1NS

14870

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#92 NAPK1NS
Member since 2004 • 14870 Posts
FFXIII is turn based, huh? :?
Avatar image for Mr_BillGates
Mr_BillGates

3211

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#93 Mr_BillGates
Member since 2005 • 3211 Posts

Mount & Blade.

Avatar image for IceBlazerX
IceBlazerX

3286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#94 IceBlazerX
Member since 2010 • 3286 Posts
FFXIII is turn based, huh? :?NAPK1NS
No, it isn't.
Avatar image for Funconsole
Funconsole

3223

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#95 Funconsole
Member since 2009 • 3223 Posts
Real time. I actually feel like I'm PLAYING the game now choosing something and watch it happen later
Avatar image for IceBlazerX
IceBlazerX

3286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#96 IceBlazerX
Member since 2010 • 3286 Posts
Real time. I actually feel like I'm PLAYING the game now choosing something and watch it happen laterFunconsole
Yes, but you are in fact playing the game. In fact, you're even more playing it than with real time. You plan ahead.
Avatar image for T_REX305
T_REX305

11304

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#97 T_REX305
Member since 2010 • 11304 Posts

i like all types of RPG.

BTW would FF13 be hybrid?