Bethesda = Innovation? No Way!

Who is to say Citizen Kane is better than Fantastic Four? More people enjoyed Fantastic Four. If you didn't enjoy Fantastic Four, that's YOUR problem.

There is no art of critical evaluation for entertainment, I say!

Bottom line? Bethesda makes games millions enjoy. If you don't, that's your problem. Don't make it the problem of the people who did.Shafftehr

People have just as much right to complain as they do to praise. Stop being so self-centered and drop the attitude.

You say that those who complain about Fallout 3 constantly are missing the point of fun--I don't think crying about someone elses opinion is all that much fun.

If I want to complain I will.

I don't care if it's a "problem" for other people. I'll speak my mind wherever the hell I feel like. If another person has such a problem with it, we can talk about it.

-TheSecondSign-

Bobhipjames, one question concerning the whole "What was fun about it?"... Are you denying that the people saying they played the game and had fun actually had fun? Here's the simple and most true answer: Playing the game was fun. Not shooting fireballs, not picking heather, not sneaking into a house ot steal a pie plate - going through the world, doing what you want to do, killing stuff, doing quests, and whatever else constitutes playing the game. That was not fun for YOU, but it WAS fun for millions of others. You are not going to convince someone that, when they sat down playing this game and experiences the emotions commonly associated with having a fun experience that they did not actually have those emotions. That's not even a point of argument, that's a fact - people sat down, played this game, and enjoyed it. Do you, or do you not, get that?Shafftehr

What does it matter? You're here having a hairy fit just because someone doesn't like Fallout 3, grow up please.

[QUOTE="-TheSecondSign-"]

If I want to complain I will.

I don't care if it's a "problem" for other people. I'll speak my mind wherever the hell I feel like. If another person has such a problem with it, we can talk about it.

Shafftehr

Ha, ha! I just read that book a few weeks ago. It was okay.

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]

Bottom line? Bethesda makes games millions enjoy. If you don't, that's your problem. Don't make it the problem of the people who did.VoodooGamer

People have just as much right to complain as they do to praise. Stop being so self-centered and drop the attitude.

You say that those who complain about Fallout 3 constantly are missing the point of fun--I don't think crying about someone elses opinion is all that much fun.

Ha, ha! I just read that book a few weeks ago. It was okay.

DeathScape666

[QUOTE="-TheSecondSign-"]

If I want to complain I will.

I don't care if it's a "problem" for other people. I'll speak my mind wherever the hell I feel like. If another person has such a problem with it, we can talk about it.

Shafftehr

If you don't want to respect anything about me. I don't care.

But I'm not going to stop complaining.

[QUOTE="-TheSecondSign-"]

If I want to complain I will.

I don't care if it's a "problem" for other people. I'll speak my mind wherever the hell I feel like. If another person has such a problem with it, we can talk about it.

Shafftehr

That was the most pathetic attempt at an analogy I think I've ever seen.

Make a greater effort at making the two fit. "Your statement that I have to respect Quixote".....wait....stop. I don't think he was talking about Quixote. I think you were. Strawman much?

What does it matter? You're here having a hairy fit just because someone doesn't like Fallout 3, grow up please.

VoodooGamer

Their pursuit is sadly misguided. I can argue with you all day long that the sun didn't rise today just as surely as they can argue all day long that the millions who enjoyed those games really didn't. Doesn't make either of our arguments any less a waste of time.Shafftehr

No one said that Fallout 3 wasn't popular. I really don't understand how a human being can be so hateful over a stupid little game.

[QUOTE="DeathScape666"]

Ha, ha! I just read that book a few weeks ago. It was okay.

Shafftehr

I ENJOYED THAT BOOK! WHY ARE YOU TRODDING ALL OVER MY ENJOYMENT BY INFERRING THAT YOUR OPINION IS SOMEHOW OBJECTIVE?

I am SO FURIOUS at this crap! Fred Weblow attacked a nematode in the blackwood forest thinking it was his Stepmother, but your assertion that I should think that that was a worthwhile endeavor is totally baseless and arrogant.

I enjoy arguing.

Besides, I have no problem with people not liking Fallout 3. I have a problem with people trying to convince others that they didn't enjoy it when in fact they did... Particularly when their method is to list off things they perceive as flaws in the game, when that does nothing to alter the simple fact that the other person sat down and had fun playing it.Shafftehr

Maybe they enjoy arguing as well? If they're listing what they perceive as flaws to convince a majority, that constitutes as debating as well.

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]

I enjoy arguing.

Besides, I have no problem with people not liking Fallout 3. I have a problem with people trying to convince others that they didn't enjoy it when in fact they did... Particularly when their method is to list off things they perceive as flaws in the game, when that does nothing to alter the simple fact that the other person sat down and had fun playing it.VoodooGamer

Maybe they enjoy arguing as well? If they're listing what they perceive as flaws to convince a majority, that constitutes as debating as well.

I enjoy arguing, does that mean I'm totally innoculated against criticism now? DON'T TREAD ON MY SUBJECTIVE ENJOYMENT!

[QUOTE="VoodooGamer"]

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]

I enjoy arguing.

Besides, I have no problem with people not liking Fallout 3. I have a problem with people trying to convince others that they didn't enjoy it when in fact they did... Particularly when their method is to list off things they perceive as flaws in the game, when that does nothing to alter the simple fact that the other person sat down and had fun playing it.BobHipJames

Maybe they enjoy arguing as well? If they're listing what they perceive as flaws to convince a majority, that constitutes as debating as well.

I enjoy arguing, does that mean I'm totally innoculated against criticism now? DON'T TREAD ON MY SUBJECTIVE ENJOYMENT!

Oh please, after some juvenile "Well, free speech says I can say whatever I want, so I'll keep on being an idiot!"

Not my problem if you don't get the analogy (Quixote is famous for fighting unwinnable fights, MUCH like someone who tries to argue against a simple fact of someone elses experience - not at all a stretch... The only side of it that is a stretch is one you didn't even comment on - that Quixote is painted as admirable for his struggle, while I'm painting you as a veritable mongoloid). It wasn't meant to be some conclusive argument, just a turn of phrase.Shafftehr

A lot of people have never heard of Don Quixote so I'm not surprised about the confusion.

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]
Oh please, after some juvenile "Well, free speech says I can say whatever I want, so I'll keep on being an idiot!"

Not my problem if you don't get the analogy (Quixote is famous for fighting unwinnable fights, MUCH like someone who tries to argue against a simple fact of someone elses experience - not at all a stretch... The only side of it that is a stretch is one you didn't even comment on - that Quixote is painted as admirable for his struggle, while I'm painting you as a veritable mongoloid). It wasn't meant to be some conclusive argument, just a turn of phrase.VoodooGamer

A lot of people have never heard of Don Quixote so I'm not surprised about the confusion.

Yeah, it's understandable. But remember, I'm a Black Isle fan - it's in my nature to be pretentious

Yeah, it's understandable. But remember, I'm a Black Isle fan - it's in my nature to be pretentious

Shafftehr

I'm also a Black Isle fan, but I'm not elitist.

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]

Yeah, it's understandable. But remember, I'm a Black Isle fan - it's in my nature to be pretentious

VoodooGamer

I'm also a Black Isle fan, but I'm not elitist.

Oh please, after some juvenile "Well, free speech says I can say whatever I want, so I'll keep on being an idiot!"

Shafftehr

Strawman. I never said that. Although I believe your comment was directed at Secondsight, who said this:

"If I want to complain I will.

I don't care if it's a "problem" for other people. I'll speak my mind wherever the hell I feel like. If another person has such a problem with it, we can talk about it."

You've still mischaracterized his position.

Not my problem if you don't get the analogy (Quixote is famous for fighting unwinnable fights, MUCH like someone who tries to argue against a simple fact of someone elses experience - not at all a stretch... The only side of it that is a stretch is one you didn't even comment on - that Quixote is painted as admirable for his struggle, while I'm painting you as a veritable mongoloid). It wasn't meant to be some conclusive argument, just a turn of phrase.Shafftehr

Is "veritable mongoloid" a comment worthy of moderation?

You didn't make the two fit in your original presentation, and that is your problem. You're not likely to succeed in the analogy if you don't present a reasoned argument.

You're arguing that subjective experience trumps objective argument. On what grounds do you even do this? Do you not have reasons for your subjective enjoyment or lack of enjoyment of a particular experience? Do objective assessments even exist when referring to entertainment media? I'm not at all saying that somebody didn't enjoy whatever game they say they like...you're attacking a strawman.

[QUOTE="VoodooGamer"][QUOTE="Shafftehr"]

Yeah, it's understandable. But remember, I'm a Black Isle fan - it's in my nature to be pretentious

Shafftehr

I'm also a Black Isle fan, but I'm not elitist.

Pardon me? There was a lot of garbage back in the day. Objectivity isn't reducible to when the game came out.

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]
Oh please, after some juvenile "Well, free speech says I can say whatever I want, so I'll keep on being an idiot!"

Not my problem if you don't get the analogy (Quixote is famous for fighting unwinnable fights, MUCH like someone who tries to argue against a simple fact of someone elses experience - not at all a stretch... The only side of it that is a stretch is one you didn't even comment on - that Quixote is painted as admirable for his struggle, while I'm painting you as a veritable mongoloid). It wasn't meant to be some conclusive argument, just a turn of phrase.VoodooGamer

A lot of people have never heard of Don Quixote so I'm not surprised about the confusion.

Well, he's not being a literary elitist or anything. It's my fault for being a juvenile mongoloid.

Your loss. What's the point of playing all these great old games if we can't lord it over younger gamers and make them feel inferior when there aren't three novels packed into every game, and each screen was hand drawn by a real artist and not some programmer slapping textures on polygons?Shafftehr

You seem to be the only one doing that. I, and my others, play them for the quality.

You seem to be the only one doing that. I, and my others, play them for the quality.

VoodooGamer

"No, I'm not so much arguing that subjective experience trumps objective argument as I'm saying that objective argument cannot change subjective experience after the fact. Maybe if you get to a gamer before they play the game and tell me "Ok, while you're playing through, I want you to focus on this minor error, this little glitch, and that obvious mistake" you might get them to focus on those things so much that they miss an experience they might have otherwise enjoyed. But if you come in and tell them about these things after they've already enjoyed it, the simple fact that they enjoyed it remains, unaltered and unalterable... So the point at which your objective argument could result in any effect relevant to enjoyment of the game is well past. As such, you can't really convince someone that a game is bad after they've already enjoyed it, so you have to ask yourself... Why do I continually repeat these points? Am I trying to catch gamers who haven't played it before they go in and quite possibly enjoy the game?

Second, objective assessments exist, of course - I, at least, am not arguing that. What effect they can produce is what's in contention here. My statement is, they will not affect something that has already happened, so if your goal with repeating your laundry list of errors ad nauseam in the hopes that you may get someone who enjoyed it to see the light... You're wasting your time, and irritating people who know well the fact that they enjoyed the game."Shafftehr

I'm not going to and I don't intend to convince someone that enjoyed the game that they didn't. What I hope that I can do, for theirs and posterity's sake, is to convince generally that the game has significant objective flaws. No, not a minor glitch or error. I can excuse minor glitches and errors. I excuse them all the time. I constantly rave inside my head about games that are detracted massively in score due to some minor glitches and errors. That's not what objective criticism is about. You take a holistic picture of a product and determine what its value is.

People do this in literature, in film, and in software. You're not breaking new ground here. You're just raging against an industry that has extraordinary intellectual and popular roots. With zero pupose.

This is why I said you were attacking a strawman. I wasn't pointing out glitches (I didn't mention a single one) or minor issues I had with the game in my playthroughs. I brought up stuff that everybody who played it can reference (even people who have read about it) and acknowledge as integral parts of the game. If you enjoyed it...seriously, that's fine. I honestly didn't believe that you enjoyed the game which was the purpose of my first comment. I'm considering retracting that doubt now, but even so, that's fine if you enjoyed it. I don't care. Thus, you were attacking another strawman. Hey, this would be a good place for a Don Quixote reference...

Just acknowledge the flaws. You said that objective assessments exist, now put yours in line with reality or argue the objective points.

dont buy their games then....daveg1

You should read the first post and then edit this one to make sure it fits with the topic.

Anyway, I'm not going to do a search for any specific post, if you don't believe me I could not care less. But, you are only one of two or three persons saying they've never heard anyone say Bethesda was innovative so go figure.

VoodooGamer

I certainly haven't seen any posts claiming that Bethesda's innnovative. Either it's only a few innocuous posts that you somehow took personally, or you're making it all up.

I tend to believe the latter.

I certainly haven't seen any posts claiming that Bethesda's innnovative. Either it's only a few innocuous posts that you somehow took personally, or you're making it all up.

I tend to believe the latter.

VoodooHak

Just because you haven't read any of these kinds of posts doesn't mean I'm making it up. You seriously haven't heard, "turn-based is so out-of-date"?

[QUOTE="daveg1"]dont buy their games then....VoodooGamer

You should read the first post and then edit this one to make sure it fits with the topic.

[QUOTE="VoodooHak"]

I certainly haven't seen any posts claiming that Bethesda's innnovative. Either it's only a few innocuous posts that you somehow took personally, or you're making it all up.

I tend to believe the latter.

VoodooGamer

Just because you haven't read any of these kinds of posts doesn't mean I'm making it up. You seriously haven't heard, "turn-based is so out-of-date"?

Have you played Fallout 3? Is it any good?

Just wondering. I don't think I'll buy it out of principle, so fear no damage from being candid.

i did read it..if your sick of the same crap the buy something else..daveg1

The original post didn't say anything about being tired of the same ol' same ol. I was saying that Fallout 3 isn't innovative, and that say that is ridiculous.

Have you played Fallout 3? Is it any good?

Just wondering. I don't think I'll buy it out of principle, so fear no damage from being candid.

BobHipJames

It is pretty good. I don't think it's as good as the originals, but it's better than I expected and really addicting.

[QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]Oh, I do love to see all of the people desperately trying to hate this game nitpick as it sweeps the critical community by storm and gets tremendous applause from the soon to be millions playing it.Shafftehr

Your sig, icon, and the content of your post confuse me utterly.

I've not played Fallout 3, but I've played Oblivion and the original Fallouts and Planescape. Fallout > Oblivion. Yes, by today's standards. Yes, I have my jaded and super-critical glasses on. No, I'm not a Fallout or a Black Isle fanboy. I've never played another Bethesda game prior to Oblivion (although I now own Morrowind...I hate it) and never a BI before Fallout outside of Planescape.

Oblivion received incredible critical acclaim and it got tremendous applause from the millions playing it. I fell into that trap and now I'm ragingly pissed. I've installed OOO and a massive leveling mod to Oblivion and I still can't tolerate it to this day.

Best summary about PC Elitism. Ever.

[QUOTE="VoodooHak"]

I certainly haven't seen any posts claiming that Bethesda's innnovative. Either it's only a few innocuous posts that you somehow took personally, or you're making it all up.

I tend to believe the latter.

VoodooGamer

Just because you haven't read any of these kinds of posts doesn't mean I'm making it up. You seriously haven't heard, "turn-based is so out-of-date"?

What does turn based supposedly being "out of date" have to do with Bethesda being innovative?

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]

What's confusing? Planescape is my favorite game, and I enjoy Bethesda's work. A lot of people have jumped on the "purist" bandwagon and have an almost irrational bias against anything Bethesda makes, and I love to see those people who go on a crusade to make sure everyone knows Bethesda sucks look like idiots as millions enjoy Bethesda's games.

You didn't like Oblivion? Ok, run with that. I did - in fact, it was a heck of a lot of fun. Best game ever? No. Best Bethesda game ever? Nope. Very good? Hell yeah. I haven't even touched Fallout 3 yet, but I'm hopeful based on my experience with every one of Bethesda's previous games. Now, where is the confusion? Are all Black Isle fans such starched-collar snobs that you just can't imagine one stopping playing through Planescape for the 2000th time with his one hand, and leafing through The Unbearable Lightness of Being with the other, long enough to actually sit down and enjoy low brow swill like a Bethesda game?

The big problem with a lot of Black Isle fans (and older PC gamers in general) is big-time elitism. These people think because they enjoyed games which were very well written, but too wordy and a bit too niche oriented for most, they deserve an honorary PHD from Oxford or something. I take notable pleasure in watching snobs like this shout until they`re blue in the face that Bethesda sucks while tons of gamers enjoy their games. At the point where you`ve so lost touch with gaming that what`s fun isn`t as important as what fits into your pretentious view of what`s good, you become comical to me.FrozenLiquid

Best summary about PC Elitism. Ever.

Why PC elitism? If the stuff on consoles was up to scratch I'd be a hell of a lot more willing to give consoles credibility.

And why elitism? I don't think better of myself because I like better games. I just hold them to a more rigorous standard. If you like crap, by all means. If you like sub-par, by all means.

But face it: "PC elitism" is something that console owners say to get the critics off their back.

What does turn based supposedly being "out of date" have to do with Bethesda being innovative?

MrSlippery39

When someone says that turn-based or isometric is out-of-date in comparison to real-time and first-person, they're saying that real-time and first-person are somehow newer and more "with the times" which adversely means it's more innovative.

[QUOTE="VoodooHak"]

I certainly haven't seen any posts claiming that Bethesda's innnovative. Either it's only a few innocuous posts that you somehow took personally, or you're making it all up.

I tend to believe the latter.

VoodooGamer

Just because you haven't read any of these kinds of posts doesn't mean I'm making it up. You seriously haven't heard, "turn-based is so out-of-date"?

The last time I saw a comment like that was probably last year. And if my post history is any indication, I do come here often enough know what that hot button topics are.

Bethesda and supposed claims of innovation weren't one of them.

[QUOTE="MrSlippery39"]

What does turn based supposedly being "out of date" have to do with Bethesda being innovative?

VoodooGamer

When someone says that turn-based or isometric is out-of-date in comparison to real-time and first-person, they're saying that real-time and first-person are somehow newer and more "with the times" which adversely means it's more innovative.

Ehhh, not entirely.

Trendy doesn't necessarily mean more innovative. If you could show me an instance of someone claiming that it's innovative, that's one thing.

I do, however, rail pretty resolutely against the idea that first-person and real-time are more up-to-date or in any way better than isometric or turn-based gameplay. They each have their quirks and they each have their pluses.

[QUOTE="MrSlippery39"]

What does turn based supposedly being "out of date" have to do with Bethesda being innovative?

VoodooGamer

When someone says that turn-based or isometric is out-of-date in comparison to real-time and first-person, they're saying that real-time and first-person are somehow newer and more "with the times" which adversely means it's more innovative.

If anything, that's more about the evolution of the Fallout series and really not about "innovation" at all.

For the Fallout series, first person perspective sure is different. And... well, that's about it. You inferring that it means innovations is all on you.

Okay, maybe I'm wrong then. What I meant to refer to is how people say that turn-based or first-person perspective is too old-fashioned to have been apart of Fallout 3. And there are people who say such things. Actually, I just read a comment like that today on the Fallout 3 message boards:

Comment

I see posts like this on this board as well.

Why PC elitism? If the stuff on consoles was up to scratch I'd be a hell of a lot more willing to give consoles credibility.

And why elitism? I don't think better of myself because I like better games. I just hold them to a more rigorous standard. If you like crap, by all means. If you like sub-par, by all means.

But face it: "PC elitism" is something that console owners say to get the critics off their back.

BobHipJames

It's too bad I don't have a "Longest Journey" sig or something, so I could confuse you as well.

I'm actually part of this "PC Gaming Elitist" crowd. I don't like to pretend, however, that the niche games I play are any better than console video games. I indulge in the adventure game genre. I love those horror games like Penumbra and Clive Barker's Undying. But bloody hell I ain't gonna bring them up in a conversation just so I can say "Har Har! Condemned 2 is consolized BS" or "Where's your adventure genre? (sarcastic smiley face)"

That's PC Gaming Elitism and I don't like it. It's using consolites' ignorance to fuel arrogance. Very sad when you know what's happening behind-the-scenes.