Carmack- PS3 harder to develop for, limiting factor in multiplatform development

second video down

http://kotaku.com/5025229/carmack-talks-from-idea-to-mac-gaming-and-ps3-programming

"in certain ways for certain kernels of performance you can get more raw flops out of it [PS3] if you have things exactly the right way. But the reality is games aren't exactly that way. You do have to work harder to get it out of the PS3. It's a combination of you don't want to least common denominator it too much. You don't want to say, "well, we're going to do what's easy on the PS3 and everybody else just gets that way."

"It is more difficult to develop for, in basically every case that becomes the gating factor on what we wind up, uh, limiting the game in different ways"

Now i own both consoles, so i don't want accusations of being a fanboy here, but i hear so much BS about the cell being a supercomputer, it really does start to annoy me. Carmack is a coding genius, he pretty much invented modern 3d graphics, his engines have been the basis of so many games and he's saying the ps3 is harder to dev for and limits multiplat titles.

Does this make the PS3 a bad system? no, but hopefully it will shut some fanboys up, the people who keep going on about its supposed "hidden power".

Come call me when he makes a better game then quake wars which was a waste of my money. And if he is such a coding genius then why does killzone 2 crap all over quake wars? And if u want to know a real genius its some1 who made MGS4. Go get some tips from Kojima, because he really needs more work on his developing skills for the ps3.

Come call me when he makes a better game then quake wars which was a waste of my money. And if he is such a coding genius then why does killzone 2 crap all over quake wars? And if u want to know a real genius its some1 who made MGS4. Go get some tips from Kojima, because he really needs more work on his developing skills for the ps3.

clintos59

console versions of quake wars weren't made by ID, they were outsourced. Carmack wasn't happy about they turned out either. Did they even make the PC version? i can't remember

edit- no they didn't last game they made was doom 3

John Carmack: You have to take advantage of what's on the table. Although it's interesting that almost all of the PS3 launch titles hardly used any Cells at all. We hired one of the best PS3 guys around who did the Edge Acceleration technology for Sony – he's on our team now so we've got some of the best PS3 experience here. In fact when we were doing all of the tech demos, we'd bring in the developers and they'd walk over and say, "it's running on the PS3!" (laughs) They'd sit there and stare at it for a while.

But this is not a shocker. a PC developer that made an engine thats mostly for PC finds it difficult to make it work for the ps3.

Carmack does Rocket science for fun :P so i guess this isn't a biggie.

But it's only John Carmack - he's a crappy programmer, right?Shafftehr

No he isn't. He is one of the best programmers in the business, haven't you seen the engine his team have made?

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]But it's only John Carmack - he's a crappy programmer, right?Krigon

No he isn't. He is one of the best programmers in the business, haven't you seen the engine his team have made?

I think he's being sarcastic.

[QUOTE="Krigon"]

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]But it's only John Carmack - he's a crappy programmer, right?Shafftehr

No he isn't. He is one of the best programmers in the business, haven't you seen the engine his team have made?

Only see one person saying he is bad coder. The thing is Carmack can say whatever he likes, but at the end of the day he makes the problems go away. :P

second video down

http://kotaku.com/5025229/carmack-talks-from-idea-to-mac-gaming-and-ps3-programming

"in certain ways for certain kernels of performance you can get more raw flops out of it PS3 if you have things exactly the right way. But the reality is games aren't exactly that way. You do have to work harder to get it out of the PS3. It's a combination of you don't want to least common denominator it too much. You don't want to say, "well, we're going to do what's easy on the PS3 and everybody else just gets that way."

"It is more difficult to develop for, in basically every case that becomes the gating factor on what we wind up, uh, limiting the game in different ways"

Now i own both consoles, so i don't want accusations of being a fanboy here, but i hear so much BS about the cell being a supercomputer, it really does start to annoy me. Carmack is a coding genius, he pretty much invented modern 3d graphics, his engines have been the basis of so many games and he's saying the ps3 is harder to dev for and limits multiplat titles.

Does this make the PS3 a bad system? no, but hopefully it will shut some fanboys up, the people who keep going on about its supposed "hidden power".

KinkInDaLink

Yes. We know that Carmack has a loyal following of zealots ready to re-state, extrapolate, and exaggerate everything he says. We don't care.

i think the biggest consequence of this, is that ps3 games are going to take a lot longer to produce. Some future ps3 exclusives look very nice, but they are taking so so long to come along. Are 3-4 year production lengths going to become the norm for marquee ps3 titles?KinkInDaLink

what has ps3 exclusive have to do with the engine that Rage uses?

Only see one person saying he is bad coder. The thing is Carmack can say whatever he likes, but at the end of the day he makes the problems go away. :P

Krigon

That was a joke. I know EXACTLY what Carmack is. What utterly amazes me is that some of the mongoloid Cows in here are seriously questioning this guy's ability - let alone saying he should take lessons from a hack like Kojima.Shafftehr

My problem is that people like to use Carmack like he's some kind of living embodiment of the deus ex machina. Yes, I know he has had a lot of field work. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that he has trouble developing for the PS3. Now what exactly does that prove in regards to developing on the PS3? That it's too difficult to program for or that it's simply too radical for Carmack's set ways to tolerate?

if Carmack ends up botching the development of a game on the PS3 all the while "hacks" like Kojima, Naughty Dawg, Guerilla, and Insomniac are able to make fully functional games, what exactly do you think that says about Carmack's programming versatility?

[QUOTE="KinkInDaLink"]i think the biggest consequence of this, is that ps3 games are going to take a lot longer to produce. Some future ps3 exclusives look very nice, but they are taking so so long to come along. Are 3-4 year production lengths going to become the norm for marquee ps3 titles?Krigon

what has ps3 exclusive have to do with the engine that Rage uses?

Is this a Marketing ploy by MS or something? do these Bias developers every stop crying about the complexity of the PS3 hardware? get with the times, thats so ancient, devs now have over come these obsticles, know how? by not crying and whining but working and getting to know it.

yes i'm looking at you carmack and gabe...geezus.

MGS4, R&C, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Resistance 2 among many others have proven what the PS3 can do. These are just more excuses due to laziness or pure fanboyism.

Multiplats now look as good if not better than the 360 counter parts. these guys just really hate the PS3.

[QUOTE="Krigon"]

Only see one person saying he is bad coder. The thing is Carmack can say whatever he likes, but at the end of the day he makes the problems go away. :P

Shafftehr

^True

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]That was a joke. I know EXACTLY what Carmack is. What utterly amazes me is that some of the mongoloid Cows in here are seriously questioning this guy's ability - let alone saying he should take lessons from a hack like Kojima.Pariah_001

My problem is that people like to use Carmack like he's some kind of living embodiment of the deus ex machina. Yes, I know he has had a lot of field work. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that he has trouble developing for the PS3. Now what exactly does that prove in regards in regards to developing on the PS3?

if Carmack ends up botching the development of a game on the PS3 all the while "hacks" like Kojima, Naughty Dawg, Guerilla, and Insomniac are able to make fully functional games, what exactly do you think that says about Carmack's programming versatility?

It kinda says he just started programming on the PS3. It is kinda hard for every developer to make their first game for the PS3, but when they are on their second game then it becomes easier it seems.

Is this a Marketing ploy by MS or something? do these Bias developers every stop crying about the complexity of the PS3 hardware? get with the times, thats so ancient, devs now have over come these obsticles, know how? by not crying and whining but working and getting to know it.

yes i'm looking at you carmack and gabe...geezus.

MGS4, R&C, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Resistance 2 among many others have proven what the PS3 can do. These are just more excuses due to laziness or pure fanboyism.

BlueHerb

laziness? i don't think gabe or carmack are questioning you can get good results from the ps3, rather that it takes a lot more work to do so.

It kinda says he just started programming on the PS3. It is kinda hard for every developer to make their first game for the PS3, but when they are on their second game then it becomes easier it seems.Krigon

I agree. I just wish people would stop using his quotes like they prove anything.

[QUOTE="BlueHerb"]

Is this a Marketing ploy by MS or something? do these Bias developers every stop crying about the complexity of the PS3 hardware? get with the times, thats so ancient, devs now have over come these obsticles, know how? by not crying and whining but working and getting to know it.

yes i'm looking at you carmack and gabe...geezus.

MGS4, R&C, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Resistance 2 among many others have proven what the PS3 can do. These are just more excuses due to laziness or pure fanboyism.

KinkInDaLink

laziness? i don't think gabe or carmack are questioning you can get good results from the ps3, rather that it takes a lot more work to do so.

oh really?

What about insomniac and resistance 2? While its true to some extent due to the differences in hardware, EVERYONE KNOWS that..and its been said so many times, yet his still saying it, honestly why? whats he trying to prove? to get everyone to ditch the PS3 or something.

I have yet to see cutscenes as good as MGS4 in a 360 title, i have yet to see animations/reactions seen in Killzone 2 in a 360 title. I have yet to see a 360 console game coming out as good as Killzone 2, visually.

While it takes a little more time, its definetly worth it due to the better results...and so far thats what we're seeing.

these guys are like broken records. YEEESH!

[QUOTE="Krigon"]It kinda says he just started programming on the PS3. It is kinda hard for every developer to make their first game for the PS3, but when they are on their second game then it becomes easier it seems.Pariah_001

I agree. I just wish people would stop using his quotes like they prove anything.

my point was to counter some peoples erroneous arguments that the cell was pure awesome and devs would unlock the "hidden power". I think the PS3 is a fantastic machine with some great exclusives, but i can't help that feel it would have been better served by a more standard processor. The cell seems like its more of a hinderence than a help to devs and that it is slowing down games coming out.

[QUOTE="KinkInDaLink"][QUOTE="BlueHerb"]

Is this a Marketing ploy by MS or something? do these Bias developers every stop crying about the complexity of the PS3 hardware? get with the times, thats so ancient, devs now have over come these obsticles, know how? by not crying and whining but working and getting to know it.

yes i'm looking at you carmack and gabe...geezus.

MGS4, R&C, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Resistance 2 among many others have proven what the PS3 can do. These are just more excuses due to laziness or pure fanboyism.

BlueHerb

laziness? i don't think gabe or carmack are questioning you can get good results from the ps3, rather that it takes a lot more work to do so.

oh really?

What about insomniac and resistance 2? While its true to some extent due to the differences in hardware, EVERYONE KNOWS that..and its been said so many times, yet his still saying it, honestly why? whats he trying to prove? to get everyone to ditch the PS3 or something.

I have yet to see cutscenes as good as MGS4 in a 360 title, i have yet to see animations/reactions seen in Killzone 2 in a 360 title. I have yet to see a 360 console game coming out as good as Killzone 2, visually.

While it takes a little more time, its definetly worth it due to the better results...and so far thats what we're seeing.

these guys are like broken records. YEEESH!

He wasn't bashing it, he answered a direct question

Is this a Marketing ploy by MS or something? do these Bias developers every stop crying about the complexity of the PS3 hardware? get with the times, thats so ancient, devs now have over come these obsticles, know how? by not crying and whining but working and getting to know it.

yes i'm looking at you carmack and gabe...geezus.

MGS4, R&C, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Resistance 2 among many others have proven what the PS3 can do. These are just more excuses due to laziness or pure fanboyism.

Multiplats now look as good if not better than the 360 counter parts. these guys just really hate the PS3.

BlueHerb

Edit- And please no cows say he is a lazy developer. He is one of the best developers by far in the gaming world.

Guess few people have watched the videos. he talks about the ps3 on the second and third clip.

He isn't bashing the ps3. He says that its harder to code for the PS3 (he is been saying that for a long time now) and that they get the best developers to fix any problems they encounter with the ps3.

So whatever, he gets the things done. We just have to wait for his game to release now :)

[QUOTE="BlueHerb"]

Is this a Marketing ploy by MS or something? do these Bias developers every stop crying about the complexity of the PS3 hardware? get with the times, thats so ancient, devs now have over come these obsticles, know how? by not crying and whining but working and getting to know it.

yes i'm looking at you carmack and gabe...geezus.

MGS4, R&C, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Resistance 2 among many others have proven what the PS3 can do. These are just more excuses due to laziness or pure fanboyism.

Multiplats now look as good if not better than the 360 counter parts. these guys just really hate the PS3.

rybe1025

Edit- And please no cows say he is a lazy developer. He is one of the best developers by far in the gaming world.

How can GT be delayed if it actually doesn't have a release date. Here is what you don't get different developers work in their own way.

Look at Insomniac releasing great games each year, they are crazy.

Most games take 2-3 years game development , this is the norm.

You telling me that its hard to develop for a nintendo system and thats why you probably just get 1 true mario, zelda, metroid game per console?

[QUOTE="BlueHerb"]

Is this a Marketing ploy by MS or something? do these Bias developers every stop crying about the complexity of the PS3 hardware? get with the times, thats so ancient, devs now have over come these obsticles, know how? by not crying and whining but working and getting to know it.

yes i'm looking at you carmack and gabe...geezus.

MGS4, R&C, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Resistance 2 among many others have proven what the PS3 can do. These are just more excuses due to laziness or pure fanboyism.

Multiplats now look as good if not better than the 360 counter parts. these guys just really hate the PS3.

rybe1025

Edit- And please no cows say he is a lazy developer. He is one of the best developers by far in the gaming world.

Agreed

Pariah, this isn't exactly Sony's first time at this rodeo. Remember the PS2, where they made a difficult to program system architecture all but intentionally in order to make it much more difficult for non-lead systems to get ports? Well, actually, that's unfair... Sony may just be incompetent at actually designing a system, and not clever in leveraging arse-backwards hardware into an advantage. Either way, it's a laugh to see this backfire on Sony this gen.Shafftehr

So what? I'm not excusing or defending Sony's designs. I am lambasting people who feel that Carmack is the lord god of development.

Carmack is a proven developer, and having worked with the many manifestations of PC hardware over the decades and setting new standards every time he released an engine, his versatility is proven.Shafftehr

...with typical electronics.

Carmack isn't claiming that the system is unworkable -Shafftehr

But that is the hole he's dug himself into here (or rather the people who like to cite him ad nauseum). He's being praised as a kind of incorruptible source of development knowledge, but if his development on the PS3 ends up inferior to that of the devs I've mentioned, he, and everyone who quotes him, will be shooting themselves in the foot in regards to that alleged "versatility" making him credible source for citation.

As for your comment about "some kind of living embodiment of the deus ex machina"... The guy is one of the most respected tech heads in gaming for a reason - and that is an absolutely amazing track record that spens well over a decade now. You have a problem with people treating a man like that as an authority in tech?Shafftehr

Yes.

I don't mind him saying what he does. But I do mind people quoting him non-stop for the sake of carrying out this crusade against Sony. He's certainly an authority but that has nothing to do with the quality of gaming end-products. From a software developer's perspective, I can appreciate what you're saying about Sony's console hardware, but as a gamer I don't, and shouldn't, have to care about these development concerns. I'll save that for when I'm, God willing, working on these games myself.

This seems more to me like an excuse for Carmack fans to excuse a possibly poor performance on Carmack's part when he develops a PS3 game.

my point was to counter some peoples erroneous arguments that the cell was pure awesome and devs would unlock the "hidden power".KinkInDaLink

The Cell is pure awesome. The problem is alledgedly in the architecture that surrounds the cell.

I have a feeling that most of the problems could have been avoided with more RAM.

As a gamer who enjoys seeing quality games in a reasonable timeframe, I think it's more than fair to hold Carmack's point against Sony. If developers in general need to spend more time working to get the same quality, then that hardware is holding back our games. The point about "repeat offenders" at E3's should be well taken here, because Sony has a heck of a lot more than MS.

The performance of the developers you mentioned atually supports Carmack's claims, particularly in the cases of Kojima and Guerilla, who plugged away on their games forever. In the case of Kojima, after all that time, the game is still graphically hardly superior to Gears of War - and Killzone 2 we'll have to see.

And what's this "Carmack fan" thing? You look at a guy with an all but perfect track record in tech, you don't have to be a "fan" to simply say "Yeah, love or hate his games, this man knows tech". I've been in the latter, finding his games to be not much more than tech demos since Doom, but that doesn't change that the man makes some of the best tech demos in gaming.

Haven't all the Playstation consoles all been hard to develop for?

But, that obvioulsy hasn't hurt them in the past.

Look at the PS2. Many developers claimed that it was near impossible to figure out the codes, until some really great and awesome games came out.

Besides...I think the PS3's hidden power is starting to show itself in games like LittleBigPlanet.

I'm not a game developer, but, it seems really hard having to create all these locks that make sure that the system doesn't crash.

But it's only John Carmack - he's a crappy programmer, right?Shafftehr

Oh, I see what you did there!

As a gamer who enjoys seeing quality games in a reasonable timeframe, I think it's more than fair to hold Carmack's point against Sony. If developers in general need to spend more time working to get the same quality, then that hardware is holding back our games. The point about "repeat offenders" at E3's should be well taken here, because Sony has a heck of a lot more than MS.Shafftehr

At the same time, I would personally argue that some of the 360 games were a little undercooked.

The performance of the developers you mentioned atually supports Carmack's claims, particularly in the cases of Kojima and Guerilla, who plugged away on their games forever. In the case of Kojima, after all that time, the game is still graphically hardly superior to Gears of War - and Killzone 2 we'll have to see.Shafftehr

I wonder if you can actually prove that "plugging away forever" means "they were having trouble with the hardware." Considering these are the first games of the generation for those developers, I'm not about to argue against the idea that they were undergoing growing pains with the new hardware, but I don't see how that growth should be assumed as evidence of detriments during the development time.

Or hell, why don't I just mention Insomniac and their ability to churn out functional PS3 games pretty damn fast just to throw off your standard?

And what's this "Carmack fan" thing? You look at a guy with an all but perfect track record in tech, you don't have to be a "fan" to simply say "Yeah, love or hate his games, this man knows tech". I've been in the latter, finding his games to be not much more than tech demos since Doom, but that doesn't change that the man makes some of the best tech demos in gaming.Shafftehr

If people were as minimalist as yourself, I probably wouldn't bother saying such things. When people start quoting him non-stop when we've already heard his tune over and over again, I'm going to consider the mass quoting a form of zealotry or fandom.

Come call me when he makes a better game then quake wars which was a waste of my money. And if he is such a coding genius then why does killzone 2 crap all over quake wars? And if u want to know a real genius its some1 who made MGS4. Go get some tips from Kojima, because he really needs more work on his developing skills for the ps3.

clintos59

iD didnt make Quake Wars at all, last game they made was Doom 3

Whats holding back Alan wake? Whats holding back Huxley? What held back Too Human? Bottom line its new to develop for. Devs get set in their ways or have training in certain areas. Throw something new at them and they ask why? Its normal, but Great Devs get to work and learn how to use it, knowledge is gold in the Gaming industry and some just think they got it made so why learn something new. While younger newer devs say wth, it can't do nothing but help me in the future.

If your in the industry and don't want to learn anything new then it may be time to get out of the industry. Rule of thumb for anything in the computer field.

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]As a gamer who enjoys seeing quality games in a reasonable timeframe, I think it's more than fair to hold Carmack's point against Sony. If developers in general need to spend more time working to get the same quality, then that hardware is holding back our games. The point about "repeat offenders" at E3's should be well taken here, because Sony has a heck of a lot more than MS.Pariah_001

At the same time, I would personally argue that some of the 360 games were a little undercooked.

The performance of the developers you mentioned atually supports Carmack's claims, particularly in the cases of Kojima and Guerilla, who plugged away on their games forever. In the case of Kojima, after all that time, the game is still graphically hardly superior to Gears of War - and Killzone 2 we'll have to see.Shafftehr

I wonder if you can actually prove that "plugging away forever" means "they were having trouble with the hardware." Considering these are the first games of the generation for those developers, I'm not about to argue against the idea that they were undergoing growing pains with the new hardware, but I don't see how that growth should be assumed as evidence of detriments during the development time.

Or hell, why don't I just mention Insomniac and their ability to churn out functional PS3 games pretty damn fast just to throw off your standard?

And what's this "Carmack fan" thing? You look at a guy with an all but perfect track record in tech, you don't have to be a "fan" to simply say "Yeah, love or hate his games, this man knows tech". I've been in the latter, finding his games to be not much more than tech demos since Doom, but that doesn't change that the man makes some of the best tech demos in gaming.Shafftehr

If people were as minimalist as yourself, I probably wouldn't bother saying such things. When people start quoting him non-stop when we've already heard his tune over and over again, I'm going to consider the mass quoting a form of zealotry or fandom.

my apologies if you think carmac is overused, i personally haven't seen any of this information before anywhere on systemwars

Even if the Cell is harder to develop for, Carmack managed to make RAGE run at 60 fps on all the platforms, including Mac. This guy is a genius, and he knows how to use every hardware; he's just saying the PS3 is more "exotic" and takes time to get used to it, right?

Also, his id Tech 5 engine is lightyears ahead of anything we saw on the PS3. Comparing MGS4 or Killzone 2's engine with this one is a joke.