Debunking the Myth: MGS4 Wont Fit on DVD9

[QUOTE="iwo4life"]Did you want to tell the 360 core users they can't play this game or should I?foxhound_fox

I agree. At the time the 360 launched my old dead HDD was 40GB.

[QUOTE="iwo4life"]

If you looke at what the Octocam is it lets you blend in to whatever you are around. It seems to be doing this very precicely on the PS3. I am sure you can make it less precice and fake the effect or make the environments pre canned destructable like every other game.

Funkyhamster

But seriously, doing something like that can't be that hard... it seems like it would just involve taking the textures of whatever's behind Snake and replacing his suit textures with those. I don't have much programming knowledg (at least not related to 3d graphics), so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

Like I said in the part of the post you didn't quote. :lol: it can probably be faked. I can't see why it cant. I am not sure everything the cell is calclulating in each scene is possible on the 360 without faking or cheating. The cell is a beast at calculations. This is a game that will actually make those "teh cell!!!!" lemmings shut up. Its not about just graphics. Its about things you cant see in a screenshot.

Lots of uncompressed data, alot of voice acting, and huge texture resolutions. That's the reason why Blue Dragon is 3 DVDs.

For Blue Dragon, by having uncompressed data, it allowed the game to load faster.

Except for MGS3, the Metal Gear Solid games had very little or no loading at all.

LoserMike

Blue Dragon will pwn, you can trust me on that.

Ehh, I don't think that Audio can take up more than 5-10 Gigs of space at max, even if its lossless.

I think there are several Explanations

1. The Game will be incredibly long

2. The Game has masses of improved textures that takeup space

3. The Game has random things only a genius like Kojima can think of.

KoreanX

yeah .. there'll probably be something like farting soldiers .. that's where the audio storage will get used up :lol:

why did i just type that?

[QUOTE="Deihmos"]The 360 works fine without needing a hard drive. The Ps3 media is 25 gigs and Oblivion is about 4 gigs so to improve load time they dumped the majority of the game to the hard drive. For someone with a 20 gig drive it can become problematic.foxhound_fox

That vaguestatement has been spinned in so many directions by websites. It wasn't anything specific. The lastGTA was about 2 gigs

As most know, Hideo Kojima said that Blu-Ray is too small for MGS4, going on to say not so much because of graphics, but because of audio. He obviously means using a lossless audio format like TrueHD. Here is why this doesn't matter.

TrueHD is MUCH lager than regular Dobly Digital, requiring Blu Ray or HD-DVD. Well the 360 has neither, so does that mean MGS4 wont work? No. The 360 can't even decode next gen audio formats, meaning if MGS4 went to the 360 it wouldnt use a lossless codec like the PS3 would. It would use normal, 5.1 Dobly Digital. Do you really think MGS4 has some unprecedent amount of audio? More than, say, Mass Effect? Yeah, thats pretty much impossible considering how much dialog Mass Effect will have. Remeber KOTOR? Yeah, a lot more than that.

In conclusion, MGS4 might not fit on a 25GB disk, but only because he wants to use a lossless audio codec. Make it Dobly Digital and it will fit. I'm sure 90% of gamers dont have the audio equipment to even take advantage of TrueHD, let alone tell the difference.

*Note: I'm not saying MGS4 will come to the 360, I personally think it wont*

Nickman71

Isn't this basically the same thing as saying it's a myth that DVD content can't be squeezed on a VHS tape because they could easily reduce the quality of the picture and sound? Or like saying we don't need CDs because if you make the sound quality worse you can jusst put it on a casette tape.

You've basically proven why BR is necessary for the future of gaming if people insist on moving towards HD content.

[QUOTE="iwo4life"]Perhaps it is an extreme amount of floating point math that the 360 CPU can't handle as well as the PS3. Perhaps having octocam and real destructable environments and bullet holes all running at the same time is too much for the 360 CPU to handle. Perhaps there isn't enough bandwidth on the shared memory controller to pump all of this to the screen and have all of these calculations happen. It could be possible to fake.

If you looke at what the Octocam is it lets you blend in to whatever you are around. It seems to be doing this very precicely on the PS3. I am sure you can make it less precice and fake the effect or make the environments pre canned destructable like every other game.Raidea

But do you honestly think, based on the current games on the market for the 360 that it would not be able to handle all what you have just posted? We know the 360 CPU is not up to the cells capabilities, but that's why the 360 has a powerful graphics processor.

There are not just positives on the PS3 side either, the 360 does have a few things that the PS3 does not. Which Bethesda studios found while doing the Oblivion port.

Faking it is not necessarily a negative either, it's just a different way of achieving the same effect in the end. The very idea that they would have to cut the Octocam out of the game entirely for a 360 version to work is what I find astonishing. You said it yourself, it could be done differently (faked).

The better option is that people can be less cheap and go and buy a PS3 to enjoy this great game that Kojima has made for us tailored for this system. Not to mention all of the other Sony 1st party stuff.iwo4life

That's true, but that isn't to do with the question. The question is could the 360 run it, not is the 360 getting it (the answer to that question is no, I think).

You go ahead. It was a huge mistake on Microsoft's part for not making a large HDD standard in the 360 lineup.foxhound_fox

I totally agree with this. Though it's not the end of the world (see GTA:IV) it was a feature that could easily have had, but excluded just to achieve a lower price point.

Like I said in my previous posts. I dont doubt that the 360 could handle this game graphically. Xenos>RSX. There is no denying it. There are things going on in this game that can't be apprectiated from a screen shot because they have nothing to do with graphics. The cell out performes the 360 CPU. For this game it is calculating destructable environments, real bullet holes that actually pierce objects rather than leave a texture on the wall. Octocamo is another massive calculation. Not to mention all of the other things that normally go on in a game. The 360 could have a 8800GTX and still be stalled because the CPU cant figure out all that is going on here.

[QUOTE="MGS9150"]He said its going to be a 50gb game. I still think it will come out on the 360, it will prolly just be really watered down and inferior.TheCrazed420

That's totally false. All of this "TrueHD" stuff is really only noticeable to audiophiles with very expensive sound systems. Visually the game does nothing the 360 couldn't handle.

in fact it looks kinda crappy tbh.

Heck, Oblivion on a bluray disc is about 20 gigs, and it fits on a dvd9 prefectly fine...DoctorBunny

Repetitve textures, music, assets, NPCs FTW.

Sorry I just don't understand why people keep bringing up oblivion like its the gold standard of the limits of gaming. Its the epitome of repetition. Have you played the game?

That vaguestatement has been spinned in so many directions by websites. It wasn't anything specific. The lastGTA was about 2 gigsDeihmos

I think the CGI will make it not fit personally...BlazeDragon132

Metal Gear Solid has never used CGI... :roll:

[QUOTE="DoctorBunny"][QUOTE="iwo4life"]

[QUOTE="DoctorBunny"]Heck, Oblivion on a bluray disc is about 20 gigs, and it fits on a dvd9 prefectly fine...Deihmos

Repetitve textures, music, assets, NPCs FTW.

Sorry I just don't understand why people keep bringing up oblivion like its the gold standard of the limits of gaming. Its the epitome of repetition. Have you played the game?

So now you are changing the argument to how it looks? Thought it was about space huh? A game with only a gig of extra content, yet it takes up 15-17 more gigs on a blueray then on a dvd9.. hmm? funny you change your argument when presented with facts

Oblivion = 4.9 gigs on blu ray

But it's not, they dont install the entire game on the HDD, if they did it would only be 1 gig as thats how much it does. You can explore the bluray and see it is about 20, which I have done when it was released

Ehh, I don't think that Audio can take up more than 5-10 Gigs of space at max, even if its lossless.

I think there are several Explanations

1. The Game will be incredibly long

2. The Game has masses of improved textures that takeup space

3. The Game has random things only a genius like Kojima can think of.

KoreanX

what on earth are you talking about? I've ripped 5 cd's with wmp lossless and they take up 6gb of space,the only reason that hideo wants more space is more audio,he even said it himself and he also said that mgs4 can be done on 360 with compression.Cows are taking this way out of context and need to get there facts straight.

[QUOTE="KoreanX"]

Ehh, I don't think that Audio can take up more than 5-10 Gigs of space at max, even if its lossless.

I think there are several Explanations

1. The Game will be incredibly long

2. The Game has masses of improved textures that takeup space

3. The Game has random things only a genius like Kojima can think of.

Funkyhamster

There's no way the PS3 (or 360, for that matter) could make use of 40GB of textures when the system only has 512MB of total RAM (which has to be used for other things as well).

Yes there is. Amount of textures. Say instead of 10 soldiers which are copied throghout the game, he makes 100 solders each with their own physical type and gear, each with a unique voice. Or like in oblivion, instead of rehashing the same textures in all dungeons, make each dungeon unique.

The cost would be enourmous, but it's totally possible to fill a blu-ray. And those thing could add depth to the game.

Doesn't mean he couldn't take them out and downgrade it to fit the 360.

[QUOTE="DoctorBunny"][QUOTE="iwo4life"]

[QUOTE="DoctorBunny"]Heck, Oblivion on a bluray disc is about 20 gigs, and it fits on a dvd9 prefectly fine...Deihmos

Repetitve textures, music, assets, NPCs FTW.

Sorry I just don't understand why people keep bringing up oblivion like its the gold standard of the limits of gaming. Its the epitome of repetition. Have you played the game?

So now you are changing the argument to how it looks? Thought it was about space huh? A game with only a gig of extra content, yet it takes up 15-17 more gigs on a blueray then on a dvd9.. hmm? funny you change your argument when presented with facts

Oblivion = 4.9 gigs on blu ray

I am saying that oblivion (which I own) is always used in these space arguments like it is the biggest game on the planet and somehow fits on a DVD9. It is repetitive repetitive repetitive in every aspect. Not just graphics. Like I said it isn't some gold standard by which all games shouldl be judged or something. Just because a repetitve game fits on DVD9 doesn't mean its suitable for games coming out this or in future years. Unless you enjoy the concept of every cave looking the same or every oblivion gate being identical. I know I don't. By the 3rd gate I was sick of those levels.

[QUOTE="BlazeDragon132"]I think the CGI will make it not fit personally...-Spock-

Metal Gear Solid has never used CGI... :roll:

The beginning of MGS2... when Snake had the raincoat on walking on the bridge was CGI

you fail

The beginning of MGS2... when Snake had the raincoat on walking on the bridge was CGI

you fail

PoppaLemming

[QUOTE="PoppaLemming"]The beginning of MGS2... when Snake had the raincoat on walking on the bridge was CGI

you fail

foxhound_fox

Never played substance. All i'm saying is on the regular PS2 version, that looked soooooo CGI. I'll accept ownage if i'm wrong

Never played substance. All i'm saying is on the regular PS2 version, that looked soooooo CGI. I'll accept ownage if i'm wrong PoppaLemming

As most know, Hideo Kojima said that Blu-Ray is too small for MGS4, going on to say not so much because of graphics, but because of audio. He obviously means using a lossless audio format like TrueHD. Here is why this doesn't matter.

TrueHD is MUCH lager than regular Dobly Digital, requiring Blu Ray or HD-DVD. Well the 360 has neither, so does that mean MGS4 wont work? No. The 360 can't even decode next gen audio formats, meaning if MGS4 went to the 360 it wouldnt use a lossless codec like the PS3 would. It would use normal, 5.1 Dobly Digital. Do you really think MGS4 has some unprecedent amount of audio? More than, say, Mass Effect? Yeah, thats pretty much impossible considering how much dialog Mass Effect will have. Remeber KOTOR? Yeah, a lot more than that.

In conclusion, MGS4 might not fit on a 25GB disk, but only because he wants to use a lossless audio codec. Make it Dobly Digital and it will fit. I'm sure 90% of gamers dont have the audio equipment to even take advantage of TrueHD, let alone tell the difference.

*Note: I'm not saying MGS4 will come to the 360, I personally think it wont*

Nickman71

[QUOTE="Not-A-Stalker"]2. Octocam. NEEDS the Cell. Not "Well they could dumb it down or something to make it work without the Cell." No. It absolutely NEEDS the Cell. If the odd chance that the 360 gets MGS4, Microsoft either has to redesign the 360 with the Cell, or Lemmings will be playing MGS4 without the Octocam.Raidea

I honestly can't believe people think this is true. It's a load of nonsense.

As most know, Hideo Kojima said that Blu-Ray is too small for MGS4, going on to say not so much because of graphics, but because of audio. He obviously means using a lossless audio format like TrueHD. Here is why this doesn't matter.

TrueHD is MUCH lager than regular Dobly Digital, requiring Blu Ray or HD-DVD. Well the 360 has neither, so does that mean MGS4 wont work? No. The 360 can't even decode next gen audio formats, meaning if MGS4 went to the 360 it wouldnt use a lossless codec like the PS3 would. It would use normal, 5.1 Dobly Digital. Do you really think MGS4 has some unprecedent amount of audio? More than, say, Mass Effect? Yeah, thats pretty much impossible considering how much dialog Mass Effect will have. Remeber KOTOR? Yeah, a lot more than that.

In conclusion, MGS4 might not fit on a 25GB disk, but only because he wants to use a lossless audio codec. Make it Dobly Digital and it will fit. I'm sure 90% of gamers dont have the audio equipment to even take advantage of TrueHD, let alone tell the difference.

*Note: I'm not saying MGS4 will come to the 360, I personally think it wont*

Nickman71

[QUOTE="KoreanX"]

Ehh, I don't think that Audio can take up more than 5-10 Gigs of space at max, even if its lossless.

I think there are several Explanations

1. The Game will be incredibly long

2. The Game has masses of improved textures that takeup space

3. The Game has random things only a genius like Kojima can think of.

blacktorn

what on earth are you talking about? I've ripped 5 cd's with wmp lossless and they take up 6gb of space,the only reason that hideo wants more space is more audio,he even said it himself and he also said that mgs4 can be done on 360 with compression.Cows are taking this way out of context and need to get there facts straight.

How the devil did you get 6gb out of less 4gb of original data? Does wmp inflate the data size 50%+?

[QUOTE="-Spock-"]

[QUOTE="BlazeDragon132"]I think the CGI will make it not fit personally...PoppaLemming

Metal Gear Solid has never used CGI... :roll:

The beginning of MGS2... when Snake had the raincoat on walking on the bridge was CGI

you fail

No, it's entirely real-time. How else do you think it's possible to zoom in with R1 and move the camera around with the analog stick? You can't do that with a regular movie file, or "CGI" if you will.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="PoppaLemming"]The beginning of MGS2... when Snake had the raincoat on walking on the bridge was CGI

you fail

PoppaLemming

Never played substance. All i'm saying is on the regular PS2 version, that looked soooooo CGI. I'll accept ownage if i'm wrong

Just press R2 and move the camera yourself. Accept it.

[QUOTE="-Spock-"]

[QUOTE="BlazeDragon132"]I think the CGI will make it not fit personally...PoppaLemming

Metal Gear Solid has never used CGI... :roll:

The beginning of MGS2... when Snake had the raincoat on walking on the bridge was CGI

you fail

kojima has never used CGI in any MGS game..

self-owned

Games using lossless audio codecs would be fantastic. Lossless audio (be it PCM, True HD, or DTS MA) is FAR better than plain DTS or DD.

A few notes:

1) the hardware needed to hear the lossless codecs is not that expensive

2) if you can not hear a difference then your hearing is VERY poor or your speakers are trash

[QUOTE="blacktorn"][QUOTE="KoreanX"]

Ehh, I don't think that Audio can take up more than 5-10 Gigs of space at max, even if its lossless.

I think there are several Explanations

1. The Game will be incredibly long

2. The Game has masses of improved textures that takeup space

3. The Game has random things only a genius like Kojima can think of.

DerekLoffin

what on earth are you talking about? I've ripped 5 cd's with wmp lossless and they take up 6gb of space,the only reason that hideo wants more space is more audio,he even said it himself and he also said that mgs4 can be done on 360 with compression.Cows are taking this way out of context and need to get there facts straight.

How the devil did you get 6gb out of less 4gb of original data? Does wmp inflate the data size 50%+?

Lossless takes up alot of space,don't ask me why lol

[QUOTE="Raidea"]

[QUOTE="Not-A-Stalker"]2. Octocam. NEEDS the Cell. Not "Well they could dumb it down or something to make it work without the Cell." No. It absolutely NEEDS the Cell. If the odd chance that the 360 gets MGS4, Microsoft either has to redesign the 360 with the Cell, or Lemmings will be playing MGS4 without the Octocam.d_eM_s

I honestly can't believe people think this is true. It's a load of nonsense.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="PoppaLemming"]The beginning of MGS2... when Snake had the raincoat on walking on the bridge was CGI

you fail

PoppaLemming

Never played substance. All i'm saying is on the regular PS2 version, that looked soooooo CGI. I'll accept ownage if i'm wrong

Play around with the buttons. You have some control over the camera. If you can manipulate the camera then that means it is being rendered in real time. Therefore it is not CGI.

But I predict you will ignore this and refuse to accept anything.

[QUOTE="MGS9150"]He said its going to be a 50gb game. I still think it will come out on the 360, it will prolly just be really watered down and inferior.brainiac24

Kojima himself said that MGS4 can run on 360. LINK

Now get ready to lose another big exclusive.

try again lembot

"Kojima has admitted that the Xbox 360 is capable of running the Metal Gear Solid 4 real-time demo."

Not MGS4 the final game in it's form now, the demothat was shown off in 2005dude....TEH DEMO!

Why would a realtime audio engine use TrueHD or Dolby Digital? It would use WAV or a easily-decoded compressed format like Ogg.lowe0

Something that get's me about you lemmings is you think you have thought about something that Hidieo Kojima himself has not. Theguy is a virtual genius when it comes to making games and anything dealing with games for that fact.

listen lemmings, If there's a better way of doning things with this game...Hideo Kojima has already thought of it...and Done it. Hes the one who has made 3 of the greatest games of all time. None of you are in any place to argue with thepath of his descisions,or question his credibility.

He is proven....you (anyone who want's to talk crap about a game**MGS4** they can't make) are not.

[QUOTE="lowe0"]Why would a realtime audio engine use TrueHD or Dolby Digital? It would use WAV or a easily-decoded compressed format like Ogg.proof11102

Something that get's me about you lemmings is you think you have thought about something that Hidieo Kojima himself has not. Theguy is a virtual genius when it comes to making games and anything dealing with games for that fact.

what kojima said was BS

he says 50gb will fill up fast, yet he couldnt fill 4.5 gb dvd on ps2 with mgs3, and how long did it take to make that? yeah i personally think it can fit on dvd9, maybe some minor sacrifices, but he wants people to buy ps3 so he doesnt have to port to 360Riki101

That is false. MGS3 came pretty close to filling up a DVD9. That's why all the extra content on MGS3: Subsitence had to go on a second disc.

[QUOTE="brainiac24"]

[QUOTE="MGS9150"]He said its going to be a 50gb game. I still think it will come out on the 360, it will prolly just be really watered down and inferior.proof11102

Kojima himself said that MGS4 can run on 360. LINK

Now get ready to lose another big exclusive.

try again lembot

"Kojima has admitted that the Xbox 360 is capable of running the Metal Gear Solid 4 real-time demo."

Not MGS4 the final game in it's form now, the demothat was shown off in 2005dude....TEH DEMO!

That is fanboy BS to the MAX. Taking a statment and twisting it around to sound like its in your favor. c3ll-foned!