You know better? You were at Redmond? It's a Jaguar tech. Ask DF. They labeled CPU as Jaguar. After all, they went to Redmond officially. Xbox engineers gave specs to DF to publish it exclusively. Richard Leadbetter stated numerous times in video and in article.
So, yes, it Jaguar, the crappy CPU.
I don't care what CPU it is.. all I care about are the results and, so far, the results look very impressive.. leave me out of your "spec wars", I was just quoting the facts as presented from the DF article..
@Antwan3K: the fact that the console version of the engine is optimized tremendously for the Xbox. Those "PC settings" were built into the console version first and then ported to PC. That version works much better on Xbox hardware and has specific optimizations that might not exist on the PC version. That's my point. So while it's awesome that they got their game running the way it does on Scorpio, comparing that performance to an nvidia based PC running a less optimized version is not right in my opinion. That's is all. Not trying to call Scorpio weak. Not trying to downplay the demo. Not trying to claim that Turn 10 tricked DF or that DF is being paid off or anything like that.
did you miss the part where they said that the ForzaTech demo wasn't even optimized for Project Scorpio yet?..
@commander: once you port to PC you have to get rid of those optimizations that get you close to the metal and you have to start working on new ones. That's why you need a new team with PC development experience to work on such things.
And say you leave them in, they still won't be useful if you start using an nvidia card or an intel processor. Not to mention that the operating system and graphics API are different so those optimizations may be calling for things that don't even exist on the platform.
That's literally why we have bad PC ports of console games.
@Antwan3K: of course it's not. It's optimized for Xbox One. But it's still a jaguar/Polaris APU. It's similar enough that all it takes is two days of coding to get to work. They had an issue with memory as well, probably switching from using esram to using the gddr5 pool. They can go further of course since they only got it to run. I'm actually curious to see what they do with the extra power and when they optimize further for Scorpio.
There is no PC engine. The fact that you are referring to it as such indicates that you are not understanding the concept of a game engine. You have game features that are enabled and disabled depending on the platform. When I am making games for consoles the settings are different to that of the PC but the engine is the same on all the systems. I can turn on all the features enabled on the PC and run it on Xbox One or PS4. It may not run great but the engine is the same. There is no special engine or special version.
That's not true. You cannot just run an engine built for Xbox on a PS4 without making any changes to it. For one, PS4 doesn't use DirectX. Once you make that change from DirectX to whatever PS4 uses, it's a different engine. It's nothing like UWP where it really is the same engine and all that changes are some settings depending on your platform. Last gen when multiplatform games ended up performing worse than the 360, it wasn't because it was weaker. It was because the engine was ported to it without being optimized for that hardware. It didn't mean that it was simply deployed to a PS3. No, the engine had to be modified to use different API's and somethings different rendering techniques to run on a PS3. The same process occurs when porting from console to PC. You need to fork the engine and begin working on PC specific engine features and optimizations that will not be beneficial to consoles or might even break the game all together. At it's core it might be identical in terms of game logic, but they will not be interchangeable with each other. They are different versions of the same engine. This is not that hard.
PS4 has DX11 like API with an optional low level API access. PS4's PSSL is like MS HLSL 5.x.
It's still a different API and will need to be coded to call it. It's still needs modifications. How it behaves similar to DX is irrelevant.
This bodes well for some decent PC ports and maybe some games that normally wouldn't have been ported to PC if a 3 man team can do it in 6 months they could put a few more bodies on it and do it quickly for relatively little cost.
"We started off with a large codebase - there were about 12,000 source files. And we started with a 64-bit Windows version of the engine using D3D11," says Reflections' expert programmer (yes, that is an actual job title), Dr. Chris Jenner.
Sony has made a big deal about the accessibility of the PS4 hardware, and a key element of that would be the quality of the toolchain - the series of programs used to create compiled code. For the PS4 developers, the use of the established Visual Studio environment proves to be a key benefit, and the extent to which Sony has acknowledged and supported cross-platform game-makers is self-evident. There are even options within Sony's compiler specifically added in order to increase compatibility with the Microsoft counterpart used in compiling DirectX 11 games.
Reflections' experience suggests that the PlayStation Shader Language (PSSL) is very similar indeed to the HLSL standard in DirectX 11, with just subtle differences that were eliminated for the most part through pre-process macros and what O'Connor calls a "regex search and replace" for more complicated differences
At the Ubisoft E3 event, the PC version of The Crew was running at 30 frames per second, but the first working compilation of the PS4 codebase wasn't quite so hot, operating at around 10fps
For performance reasons, specifically targeting for PS4's hardware difference is required and less performance games, basic port is enough.
The PS4 dirty port was actually running at only 10FPS compared to 30FPS of the PC version.
@Antwan3K: the fact that the console version of the engine is optimized tremendously for the Xbox. Those "PC settings" were built into the console version first and then ported to PC. That version works much better on Xbox hardware and has specific optimizations that might not exist on the PC version. That's my point. So while it's awesome that they got their game running the way it does on Scorpio, comparing that performance to an nvidia based PC running a less optimized version is not right in my opinion. That's is all. Not trying to call Scorpio weak. Not trying to downplay the demo. Not trying to claim that Turn 10 tricked DF or that DF is being paid off or anything like that.
NVIDIA has optimized Pascal hardware for DirectX11 and DirectX12, and the results shows it i.e. currently the best 6 TFLOPS class GPU with 256 GB/s physical memory bandwidth which is GTX 1070.
RX-480 OC or RX-580 with the same 256 GB/s memory bandwidth and similar TFLOPS couldn't match GTX 1070's results.
Are you going to argue AMD's TFLOPS are bad quality? So, what happen for Doom Vulkan? AMD's TFLOPS was slotting into NVIDIA's TFLOPS rankings.
Pascal hardware is already optimized for deferred rendering engines such as Unreal Engine 4 and any game to that runs via Pixel Engine path which has less bottle-necks than the current AMD's Pixel Engine path.
Xbox version wouldn't solve Pixel Engine to memory controller bottleneck!!! XBO has weaker ACE units relative to the competition hence it's programming model would be bias towards Pixel Engine path.
EQAA usage is showing the world, it's using Pixel Engine (ROPS's AA hardware) path.
MS spent $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to optimized the Hawaii XT like hardware for existing XBO software without MS re-building their games into Sony's PS4 8 ACE setup.
A two ACE setup game would gimp Hawaii XT type GPU into Pixel Engine bottleneck. Majority of PC games are heavy Pixel Engine path designs.
To maximize R9-390X, PS4 style programming with 8 ACE units and minimizing Pixel Engine path are highly recommended e.g. Doom Vulkan.
MS didn't want an oversize PS4 Hawaii XT chip, MS wanted oversize XBO Hawaii XT chip with improved Pixel Engine path.
@Antwan3K: of course it's not. It's optimized for Xbox One. But it's still a jaguar/Polaris APU. It's similar enough that all it takes is two days of coding to get to work. They had an issue with memory as well, probably switching from using esram to using the gddr5 pool. They can go further of course since they only got it to run. I'm actually curious to see what they do with the extra power and when they optimize further for Scorpio.
Edit: also Wooot! 10k posts!
so it's an unoptimized port of ForzaTech for Project Scoprio.. how does this support your argument that the engine was "optimized tremendously"?..
@Antwan3K: of course it's not. It's optimized for Xbox One. But it's still a jaguar/Polaris APU. It's similar enough that all it takes is two days of coding to get to work. They had an issue with memory as well, probably switching from using esram to using the gddr5 pool. They can go further of course since they only got it to run. I'm actually curious to see what they do with the extra power and when they optimize further for Scorpio.
Edit: also Wooot! 10k posts!
so it's an unoptimized port of ForzaTech for Project Scoprio.. how does this support your argument that the engine was "optimized tremendously"?..
Unoptimized ForzaTech is probably ACE unit constrained like XBO's programming model.
Current Hawaii XT doesn't scale well for XBO's programming model, but it's good for PS4's programming model e.g. Doom Vulkan.
AMD included PS4's improvements into Hawaii XT (larger ACE units with 64 total queues resource with improved L2 cache handling) while nearly zero improvements with Pixel Engine path.
Vega is a combination between Sony's programming model (CELL way, Compute Engine path) and MS's programming model (Xenos way, Pixel Engine path).
MS is putting their improvement contributions into Hawaii XT type GPU.
Forcing everything about Scorpio into one thread makes for a jumbled mess.
Nice job.
This only helps prevent the massive Scorpio Spec spamming threads if everything wasn't into one single thread so this kinda helps. I underestimate everyone is taking this specs very seriously and we haven't even started E3 2017, it's way too early to start freaking out now. In short, this whole presentation was all about clearing out rumors on the CPU and everyone lost there minds thinking this changes everything but it doesn't.
@lrdfancypants: Best thing to do now is let them figure out themselves, no point in staying in this thread since it's already went to shit. We're just gonna have to wait for E3 2017 on MS main event Scorpio news.
@Antwan3K: because Scorpio is still an Xbox one and contains similar hardware. so all of the optimizations that made it run so well on Xbox One carry over to the Scorpio. It's not like porting to the PC where the hardware and OS is radically different. They can optimize further but the point is that they don't have to. This is what makes scorpio so impressive and this is the point they were trying to make.
@commander: once you port to PC you have to get rid of those optimizations that get you close to the metal and you have to start working on new ones. That's why you need a new team with PC development experience to work on such things.
And say you leave them in, they still won't be useful if you start using an nvidia card or an intel processor. Not to mention that the operating system and graphics API are different so those optimizations may be calling for things that don't even exist on the platform.
That's literally why we have bad PC ports of console games.
@Zero_epyon: The information from the article clearly states that the ForzaTech engine was not optimized.. And nowhere in the article does it say that this is a direct port of an Xbox One game but rather it's a port of the ForzaTech engine itself..
I'll just leave it at that.. It seems you're reading way too much into minute details in order create an argument that doesn't need to be made.. Even unopitimized, the demo ran impressively and exceeded expectations, achieving 4K/60fps in a current gen game with room to spare for enhanced graphical settings beyond the resolution bump.. Something that a few weeks ago, some people were saying was "impossible" for a console..
Clearly a great start so far and all there's left to do is wait until E3 to see if other games run as impressively as the ForzaTech demo..
That's not true. You cannot just run an engine built for Xbox on a PS4 without making any changes to it. For one, PS4 doesn't use DirectX. Once you make that change from DirectX to whatever PS4 uses, it's a different engine. It's nothing like UWP where it really is the same engine and all that changes are some settings depending on your platform. Last gen when multiplatform games ended up performing worse than the 360, it wasn't because it was weaker. It was because the engine was ported to it without being optimized for that hardware. It didn't mean that it was simply deployed to a PS3. No, the engine had to be modified to use different API's and somethings different rendering techniques to run on a PS3. The same process occurs when porting from console to PC. You need to fork the engine and begin working on PC specific engine features and optimizations that will not be beneficial to consoles or might even break the game all together. At it's core it might be identical in terms of game logic, but they will not be interchangeable with each other. They are different versions of the same engine. This is not that hard.
Firstly the game engine is the same game engine regardless of the platform its final code is compiled to. You are creating scenarios that does not exist. Secondly if anyone is to subscribe your logic then Doom 2016 is two engines one is Directx and the other is Vulkan but we both know that is simply an incorrect assessment. And lastly both the Xbox/Scorpio are closer to the PC architecture than any other console further making your claims incorrect. Nice sidetrack though. All of this nonsensical babble you are making does not change the fact that Forza was running at 4k 60FPS using the SAME settings as Ultra on the PC. No amount of spinning can change that. If you don't like the info find new info to counter DF and the Turn 10 claims.
@Zero_epyon: The information from the article clearly states that the ForzaTech engine was not optimized.. And nowhere in the article does it say that this is a direct port of an Xbox One game but rather it's a port of the ForzaTech engine itself..
I'll just leave it at that.. It's seems you're reading way too much into minute details in order create an argument that doesn't need to be made.. Even unopitimized, the demo ran impressively and exceeded expectations, achieving 4K/60fps in a current gen game with room to spare for enhanced graphical settings beyond the resolution bump.. Something that a few weeks ago, some people were saying was "impossible" for a console..
Clearly a great start so far and all there's left to do is wait until E3 to see if other games run as impressively as the ForzaTech demo..
Your using very selective language to get around my argument. It's not optimized for scorpio. I never claimed that. It is however optimized for Xbox One, which scorpio happens to be.
I want you to explain how this line means it's using Apex
"The process of getting ForzaTech up and running on the makeshift Project Scorpio hardware took just two days, and according to Chris Tector, the majority of that time was adapting the codebase from an earlier XDK [the PC-based development environment] that dated to just after Forza Motorsport 6's ship-date."
Can you tell me how that means it's using the PC version (Apex)?
Also it turns out that Turn 10 had a major voice in how the Scorpio was made and the hardware was shaped around data they supplied them. You know, with FM6.
That's not true. You cannot just run an engine built for Xbox on a PS4 without making any changes to it. For one, PS4 doesn't use DirectX. Once you make that change from DirectX to whatever PS4 uses, it's a different engine. It's nothing like UWP where it really is the same engine and all that changes are some settings depending on your platform. Last gen when multiplatform games ended up performing worse than the 360, it wasn't because it was weaker. It was because the engine was ported to it without being optimized for that hardware. It didn't mean that it was simply deployed to a PS3. No, the engine had to be modified to use different API's and somethings different rendering techniques to run on a PS3. The same process occurs when porting from console to PC. You need to fork the engine and begin working on PC specific engine features and optimizations that will not be beneficial to consoles or might even break the game all together. At it's core it might be identical in terms of game logic, but they will not be interchangeable with each other. They are different versions of the same engine. This is not that hard.
Firstly the game engine is the same game engine regardless of the platform its final code is compiled to. You are creating scenarios that does not exist. Secondly if anyone is to subscribe your logic then Doom 2016 is two engines one is Directx and the other is Vulkan but we both know that is simply an incorrect assessment. And lastly both the Xbox/Scorpio are closer to the PC architecture than any other console further making your claims incorrect. Nice sidetrack though. All of this nonsensical babble you are making does not change the fact that Forza was running at 4k 60FPS using the SAME settings as Ultra on the PC. No amount of spinning can change that. If you don't like the info find new info to counter DF and the Turn 10 claims.
They are two versions of the same engine! That's what I've been saying. Not that it changes from lets say Unreal to Forstbite. There's an DX 12 version and a Vulcan engine. The fact is, they used the Xbox version of ForzaTech. it's in their article. The one's spinning this is you guys and I don't get why.
1-Scorpio is faster than the Pro no matter what,even if it has the same Jaguar,it has more GPU power and faster bandwidth that alone should warranty faster performance.
2-The GPU isn't Vega regardless of what one person is falsely claiming here,i think by this point in time his post should be consider as disrupting posting,since he assume only hes false arguments are valid even without proof just miss interpretation.
3-CPU is not Ryzen this another point where that same poster failed,regardless of not having Ryzen the Scorpio will be faster no is not because of the extra 200mhz over the Pro or the DX12 crap,it simply has a stronger GPU and faster bandwidth.
Th CPU has 31% performance gain over the XBO CPU which mean this is exactly the same CPU not Puma or Ryzen,but even if it was Puma this is not an i7.
Any chart comparing the R390X to Scorpio are meaningless since those benchmarks were done using highly expensive i7 in some cases $1,000 one,which scorpio CPU is not even close to.
So you can't expect that a low end budget CPU will drive a 6TF GPU to the same point or further than a top of the line CPU will this is common sense,a Jaguar no matter what still a Jaguar and will not drive a GPU to the same end a i7 will,regardless of that it would surely drive it pass the PS4 Pro without problems just like the 1.6 one pass the PS4 over the xbox one faster CPU.
Now lets move into the so call enhancements of hardware done to the command processor to handle better draw calls,many people think this is new or game changing is not is old and was on xbox one as well just like Pix as well.
[UPDATE 7/4/17 20:44:Microsoft's Andrew Goossen has been in touch to clarify that D3D12 support at the hardware level is actually a part of the existing Xbox One and Xbox One S too. "Scorpio builds on the Command Processor capability present in the original Xbox One," we're told. "Our implementation of D3D12 supports all Xbox Ones, and games have already shipped that use it. When a game using D3D12 starts up, we reprogram the GPU's Command Processor front-end. The 50 per cent CPU rendering overhead improvement was reported by shipping games. The amount of win is dependent on the game engine and content, and not all games will see that size of improvement. Scorpio's Command Processor provides additional capability and programmability beyond what Xbox One/Xbox One S can do. We plan to take advantage of this in the future."]
So basically what this ^^ confirms is that the so call customization done with DX12 was yeah...
It was nothing it was mention just to make seen that they have something that would help that Jaguar which also the PS4 and Pro have already,the xbox one already have it but if some people here had better memory retention they would have remember it just like Pix is a damn old tool on xbox is nothing NEW what so ever.
The fun part is that i made a thread about it almost 3 years ago,but no one believe me that that DX12 were mostly the xbox tools done on PC,when you talk about DX12 for consoles it means crap just like we saw big improvement on PC in some games an on xbox nothing,it was because well most of what DX12 was bringing to PC was already inside consoles for generation is was call console optimization to the metal call it what you want.
With Xbox One we have also made significant enhancements to the implementation of Direct3D 11, especially in the area of runtime overhead. The result is a very streamlined, “close to metal” level of runtime performance. In conjunction with the third generation PIX performance tool for Xbox One, developers can use Direct3D 11 to unlock the full performance potential of the console.
Pix is a tool on windows and xbox 360 back last gen is nothing new or a secret weapon and sony had something similar.
We also took the opportunity to go and highly customise the command processor on the GPU. Again concentrating on CPU performance... The command processor block's interface is a very key component in making the CPU overhead of graphics quite efficient. We know the AMD architecture pretty well - we had AMD graphics on the Xbox 360 and there were a number of features we used there. We had features like pre-compiled command buffers where developers would go and pre-build a lot of their states at the object level where they would [simply] say, "run this".We implemented it on Xbox 360 and had a whole lot of ideas on how to make that more efficient [and with] a cleaner API, so we took that opportunity with Xbox One and with our customised command processor we've created extensions on top of D3D which fit very nicely into the D3D model and this is something that we'd like to integrate back into mainline 3D on the PC too - this small, very low-level, very efficient object-orientated submission of your draw [and state] commands.
Congratulations to the lemmings hyping Pix and modifications to command processor done by MS,MS effectively recycle their circa 2013 secret sauce and slam them into Scorpio and you actually believe it was something new.
Look at my old thread linked there if you dare,is from May 2014.
Pix.
Command processor customization for CPU over head.
Balance platforms design.
All from 2013 and we know how much those helped the xbox one.
I hope we have another Anandtech thread after this is unstickied. That practically deep-sixed any real conversation on the hardware, ironically.
I have been reading Anandtech for many years. They are a reputable source.
But they are mostly guessing based on the information DF is giving us. DF is currently the only one that had access, and was able to ask all the questions to Microsoft. They have most of the information, so are more capable in properly creating the expectations for the console.
@Zero_epyon: The information from the article clearly states that the ForzaTech engine was not optimized.. And nowhere in the article does it say that this is a direct port of an Xbox One game but rather it's a port of the ForzaTech engine itself..
I'll just leave it at that.. It's seems you're reading way too much into minute details in order create an argument that doesn't need to be made.. Even unopitimized, the demo ran impressively and exceeded expectations, achieving 4K/60fps in a current gen game with room to spare for enhanced graphical settings beyond the resolution bump.. Something that a few weeks ago, some people were saying was "impossible" for a console..
Clearly a great start so far and all there's left to do is wait until E3 to see if other games run as impressively as the ForzaTech demo..
Your using very selective language to get around my argument. It's not optimized for scorpio. I never claimed that. It is however optimized for Xbox One, which scorpio happens to be.
I want you to explain how this line means it's using Apex
"The process of getting ForzaTech up and running on the makeshift Project Scorpio hardware took just two days, and according to Chris Tector, the majority of that time was adapting the codebase from an earlier XDK [the PC-based development environment] that dated to just after Forza Motorsport 6's ship-date."
Can you tell me how that means it's using the PC version (Apex)?
I have been following you guys' conversation for a while and i think you are using selective information.
DF said it took 2 days to get the ForzaTech (FM6) engine up and running on makeshift Scorpio, a port which were using Xbox One settings but running at 4K with a few other enhancements (all cars fully modeled). That demo was only using 66%.
They also clarified in a separate video that they then ran a test of the ForzaTech engine (same FM6 engine is used across XB1 and PC) ramped up to PC's max settings equivalent and it was running at 88% load.
Im not suring why you are ignoring the latter.
The ForzaTech engine powers both FM6 on Xbox One, as well as FM6: Apex on PC. It is scalable.
There isnt 2 different engines. Unreal Engine is the same engine regardless of what platform it is on.
That's not true. You cannot just run an engine built for Xbox on a PS4 without making any changes to it. For one, PS4 doesn't use DirectX. Once you make that change from DirectX to whatever PS4 uses, it's a different engine. It's nothing like UWP where it really is the same engine and all that changes are some settings depending on your platform. Last gen when multiplatform games ended up performing worse than the 360, it wasn't because it was weaker. It was because the engine was ported to it without being optimized for that hardware. It didn't mean that it was simply deployed to a PS3. No, the engine had to be modified to use different API's and somethings different rendering techniques to run on a PS3. The same process occurs when porting from console to PC. You need to fork the engine and begin working on PC specific engine features and optimizations that will not be beneficial to consoles or might even break the game all together. At it's core it might be identical in terms of game logic, but they will not be interchangeable with each other. They are different versions of the same engine. This is not that hard.
Firstly the game engine is the same game engine regardless of the platform its final code is compiled to. You are creating scenarios that does not exist. Secondly if anyone is to subscribe your logic then Doom 2016 is two engines one is Directx and the other is Vulkan but we both know that is simply an incorrect assessment. And lastly both the Xbox/Scorpio are closer to the PC architecture than any other console further making your claims incorrect. Nice sidetrack though. All of this nonsensical babble you are making does not change the fact that Forza was running at 4k 60FPS using the SAME settings as Ultra on the PC. No amount of spinning can change that. If you don't like the info find new info to counter DF and the Turn 10 claims.
They are two versions of the same engine! That's what I've been saying. Not that it changes from lets say Unreal to Forstbite. There's an DX 12 version and a Vulcan engine. The fact is, they used the Xbox version of ForzaTech. it's in their article. The one's spinning this is you guys and I don't get why.
Seriously?
You just proved that you dont know what you are talking about.....
They are two versions of the same engine! That's what I've been saying. Not that it changes from lets say Unreal to Forstbite. There's an DX 12 version and a Vulcan engine. The fact is, they used the Xbox version of ForzaTech. it's in their article. The one's spinning this is you guys and I don't get why.
Their is no Xbox version of ForzaTech. Its simply ForzaTech. No one besides you are making a distinction of a game engine based on the platform its running on. When identical games are compared on varying consoles NO ONE makes the claim that they are different engines or versions of the engine and thus the reason they are used for benchmarks across systems. You know this already. So, whats the purpose of all of this beating around the bush? Is it because you didn't like the comparison of the Scorpio being on the same level as PC?
@Zero_epyon: Lol "selective language"?.. You're the one admitting that the port was unoptimized and then saying it was "optimized tremendously" in the same sentence..
And it's already been quoted several times that the ForzaTech demo on Scorpio is using the same quality settings as Forza 6 Apex on PC and those settings were taken to the max while maintaining 4k/60fps performance.. That particular debate is over.. So what are you arguing about at this point?..
Any chart comparing the R390X to Scorpio are meaningless since those benchmarks were done using highly expensive i7 in some cases $1,000 one,which scorpio CPU is not even close to.
So you can't expect that a low end budget CPU will drive a 6TF GPU to the same point or further than a top of the line CPU will this is common sense,a Jaguar no matter what still a Jaguar and will not drive a GPU to the same end a i7 will,regardless of that it would surely drive it pass the PS4 Pro without problems just like the 1.6 one pass the PS4 over the xbox one faster CPU.
I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Tormentos is in here dropping knowledge bombs!
I'm staying away from this thread for the most part since people will completely ignore logic and reason in order to paint the Scorpio as something it's not. People are in here saying, "Digital Foundry said it so it must be true," while completely ignoring the fact that Richard compared the Scorpio GPU to the RX 480. The folks that are using Richards word as gospel are in this thread trying to sell people that the Scorpio is running a GPU that is better than the 1070, and close to the 1080. (or the 390X) Richard didn't say that. The only comparison made by Digital Foundry is the 480. And common knowledge would lead us to believe the CPU in the Scorpio would bottleneck the GPU. Common knowledge would also lead us to believe that 8GB of RAM shared between graphics and CPU resources would cause issues at 4K. Anyone here run a PC games with a high res texture pack? Anyone play games at 4K with texture quality cranked?
We should make some new rules in this thread.
1 - Stop using PC benchmarks with CPUs that are clocked 2GHz higher than the Scorpio CPU, with double+ the cores and threads. 2 - Stop using PC benchmarks with PCs running 16GB or more RAM in conjunction with 8GB VRAM GPUs.
And we can thank @tormentos again for bringing the D3D12 news to the attention to the folks overhyping the hardware.
"Microsoft's Andrew Goossen has been in touch to clarify that D3D12 support at the hardware level is actually a part of the existing Xbox One and Xbox One S too. "Scorpio builds on the Command Processor capability present in the original Xbox One," we're told. "Our implementation of D3D12 supports all Xbox Ones, and games have already shipped that use it."
It's not like Lems have fallen for this stuff before...
Forza Horizon 3 would be a more impressive showpiece for the Scorpio hardware. It's also the most recent game to be released on XB1 and PC. I wonder why they didn't use this game to showcase the new hardware...
They are two versions of the same engine! That's what I've been saying. Not that it changes from lets say Unreal to Forstbite. There's an DX 12 version and a Vulcan engine. The fact is, they used the Xbox version of ForzaTech. it's in their article. The one's spinning this is you guys and I don't get why.
Their is no Xbox version of ForzaTech. Its simply ForzaTech. No one besides you are making a distinction of a game engine based on the platform its running on. When identical games are compared on varying consoles NO ONE makes the claim that they are different engines or versions of the engine and thus the reason they are used for benchmarks across systems. You know this already. So, whats the purpose of all of this beating around the bush? Is it because you didn't like the comparison of the Scorpio being on the same level as PC?
If they are the same engine, why did it take 2 days to get a demo of the Xbox One code running on Scorpio?
Any chart comparing the R390X to Scorpio are meaningless since those benchmarks were done using highly expensive i7 in some cases $1,000 one,which scorpio CPU is not even close to.
So you can't expect that a low end budget CPU will drive a 6TF GPU to the same point or further than a top of the line CPU will this is common sense,a Jaguar no matter what still a Jaguar and will not drive a GPU to the same end a i7 will,regardless of that it would surely drive it pass the PS4 Pro without problems just like the 1.6 one pass the PS4 over the xbox one faster CPU.
I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Tormentos is in here dropping knowledge bombs!
I'm staying away from this thread for the most part since people will completely ignore logic and reason in order to paint the Scorpio as something it's not. People are in here saying, "Digital Foundry said it so it must be true," while completely ignoring the fact that Richard compared the Scorpio GPU to the RX 480. The folks that are using Richards word as gospel are in this thread trying to sell people that the Scorpio is running a GPU that is better than the 1070, and close to the 1080. (or the 390X) Richard didn't say that. The only comparison made by Digital Foundry is the 480. And common knowledge would lead us to believe the CPU in the Scorpio would bottleneck the GPU. Common knowledge would also lead us to believe that 8GB of RAM shared between graphics and CPU resources would cause issues at 4K. Anyone here run a PC games with a high res texture pack? Anyone play games at 4K with texture quality cranked?
We should make some new rules in this thread.
1 - Stop using PC benchmarks with CPUs that are clocked 2GHz higher than the Scorpio CPU, with double+ the cores and threads.
2 - Stop using PC benchmarks with PCs running 16GB or more RAM in conjunction with 8GB VRAM GPUs.
And we can thank @tormentos again for bringing the D3D12 news to the attention to the folks overhyping the hardware.
"Microsoft's Andrew Goossen has been in touch to clarify that D3D12 support at the hardware level is actually a part of the existing Xbox One and Xbox One S too. "Scorpio builds on the Command Processor capability present in the original Xbox One," we're told. "Our implementation of D3D12 supports all Xbox Ones, and games have already shipped that use it."
It's not like Lems have fallen for this stuff before...
Forza Horizon 3 would be a more impressive showpiece for the Scorpio hardware. It's also the most recent game to be released on XB1 and PC. I wonder why they didn't use this game to showcase the new hardware...
all this pseudo knowledge about the scorpio from the cow camp doesn't matter
From what I've seen so far, there is some evidence that Scorpio's true 4K performance could pose a challenge to the likes of Nvidia's GTX 1070 and AMD's Fury X-class hardware. I've seen Microsoft's new console running a Forza Motorsport 6-level experience locked to 4K60 on the equivalent to PC's ultra settings - cranking up the quality presets to obscene levels was one of the first things developer Turn 10 did when confronted with the sheer amount of headroom it had left after a straight Xbox One port. Out of interest, we tested Forza 6 Apex with similar settings at 4K on a 1070. The GTX 1070 held firm with only the most intense wet weather conditions causing performance dips. Forza 6 Apex received plenty of praise for the quality of its PC port.
The quality settings from Forza Motorsport 6 Apex on PC can be fully invoked on Scorpio. Turn 10 literally ramped up everything to ultra and it just worked, with the game retaining a 4K60 performance level. The crazy story here is that we've gone over our PC ultra settings and for everything that's GPU-related, we've been able to max it - and that's what we're running at, 88 percent,"
It beats the gtx 1070 and is double as fast compared to the ps4 pro, rip cows
I hope we have another Anandtech thread after this is unstickied. That practically deep-sixed any real conversation on the hardware, ironically.
I have been reading Anandtech for many years. They are a reputable source.
But they are mostly guessing based on the information DF is giving us. DF is currently the only one that had access, and was able to ask all the questions to Microsoft. They have most of the information, so are more capable in properly creating the expectations for the console.
No doubt. Empirical evidence versus circumstantial, notwithstanding.
The quality settings from Forza Motorsport 6 Apex on PC can be fully invoked on Scorpio. Turn 10 literally ramped up everything to ultra and it just worked, with the game retaining a 4K60 performance level. The crazy story here is that we've gone over our PC ultra settings and for everything that's GPU-related, we've been able to max it - and that's what we're running at, 88 percent,"
Did you read your quote? They are literally telling you that the game isn't maxed on PC settings. "For everything GPU related." Again, you folks are falling for PR speak. I've asked what "Ultra settings" means in the context it's being used. Many folks are. But the Lem camp just throws the PR speak right at anyone asking a serious question. "For everything GPU-related" sounds like they are working around the CPU, which is something many folks are calling out here.
If they are the same engine, why did it take 2 days to get a demo of the Xbox One code running on Scorpio?
I go through a similar process everytime I upgrade my projects from an older version of the game to a new one and when I am porting the game to a different system. Whats the point you are trying to get at?
"The extent to which the comparison is valid is highly debatable, but we tried to replicate the ForzaTech content on the PC version based on this ultra-level stress test."
I no longer have a beef with Richard. Really that's all I wanted to hear from him. His comparison was being treated as fact and fanboys ran with it. I knew Richard was more careful with stuff like this. It took a few days longer than it should have, but he isn't even trying to pass off the comparison as factual. I'm fine with speculation as long as it's declared as such.
My question to those that are defending "Ultra PC settings at 4K 60fps," what happens when Forza 7 falls short? What happens where there is are "high visual" and "high performance" modes in Forza 7? What happens if there are frame drops or graphical compromises? Will you all be here admitting you were wrong? Will you take back all the insults? Or will you take the "well at least it's better than yours" defense the Cows used earlier this gen?
@kuu2: Yep it appears so.. Initially, they were saying "well I just want more information, I'm not calling them liars".. After a second article and video is released that directly addresses and clarifies the added details they wanted, now we're back to just straight up questioning Digital Foundry's credibility..
@goldenelementxl: my question is for those that are doubting the journalistic credibility of DF when they say they saw the ForzaTech engine on Project Scorpio hardware running at 4K/60fps on Ultra settings and they feel they still have room to grow with optimizations.. What happens if FM7 achieves exactly what was shown?..
Will you admit that you were wrong?.. Will you take back the insults?.. When comparison videos come out showing tangible advantages for Scorpio over PS4 Pro, is Digital Foundry credible again or are you going use the "DF is biased" defence that lems used earlier this gen?..
As a matter of fact, since you don't believe DF anymore, what is your personal prediction of what FM7's performance will be when it is released on both Scorpio and Win10 PC this fall?.. Put your money where your mouth is and tell us exactly how you think the game will perform in terms of native resolution, framerate, and comparable PC level settings (low, medium, high, ultra, etc).. There will be 1-to-1 PC version available so all of this will be easily confirmed by DF once the games are released..
If they are the same engine, why did it take 2 days to get a demo of the Xbox One code running on Scorpio?
I go through a similar process everytime I upgrade my projects from an older version of the game to a new one and when I am porting the game to a different system. Whats the point you are trying to get at?
Yes, but you're "porting" a game. The improvements being expressed here are something different entirely. We are talking more of a remaster than a port.
I'm an engineer (I work in the medical field so it doesn't translate 100%) so I understand the process of working with makeshift hardware and testing reliability of software from older versions. I do it weekly at a minimum. It doesn't take 2 days to do that. Turn 10 used the PC code they worked with on Forza 6 before nailing everything down to the Xbox One hardware. It took them 2 days to get that same code to run on another PC that was aimed at Scorpio specifications. That is hardly impressive or an indication of how long it will take to get Xbox One games to run at 4K with improvements on Scorpio. This whole part of the article is strange to me.
"The process of getting ForzaTech up and running on the makeshift Project Scorpio hardware took just two days, and according to Chris Tector, the majority of that time was adapting the codebase from an earlier XDK [the PC-based development environment]"
To me, this seems like something that was mentioned to get folks excited. It means almost nothing. They had Matt from turn 10 get the PC code from early development of Forza 6 running on their Scorpio dev kit, and it took him 3 days to do it. My reaction would be, "OK..." The fact that people are running with this and turning it into something so silly is strange to me. Now if they got Forza 6, like the whole game, running in 2 days with the asset improvements and polished performance, 2-3 days would be damn impressive. I would consider that impossible. And I think this is what people actually think happened. But that's not what happened here. An employee got a demo based on other PC work up and running so they could show Richard from Digital Foundry something Scorpio related. That leads me to believe that someone from Microsoft came to Turn 10 and said, "Hey, that Digital Foundry guy is coming in a few days. We need something to show him. But we can't show him Forza 7, so whip up something else for him real quick."
"The extent to which the comparison is valid is highly debatable, but we tried to replicate the ForzaTech content on the PC version based on this ultra-level stress test."
I no longer have a beef with Richard. Really that's all I wanted to hear from him. His comparison was being treated as fact and fanboys ran with it. I knew Richard was more careful with stuff like this. It took a few days longer than it should have, but he isn't even trying to pass off the comparison as factual. I'm fine with speculation as long as it's declared as such.
My question to those that are defending "Ultra PC settings at 4K 60fps," what happens when Forza 7 falls short? What happens where there is are "high visual" and "high performance" modes in Forza 7? What happens if there are frame drops or graphical compromises? Will you all be here admitting you were wrong? Will you take back all the insults? Or will you take the "well at least it's better than yours" defense the Cows used earlier this gen?
Well, until developers have hardware in hand and making content for it............isnt it all speculation?
Also, one case in ForzaTech port success doesnt mean every game will have the same level or success or compatibilty.
I think DF were just trying to express how efficient and capable the hardware was.
This doesnt mean EVERY game will run at PC max settings, but it is proof that the hardware is capable of much more than paper specs suggest.
At some point, the "PC max settings" will be impossible simply because of the CPU, regardless of the optimizations made to it.
To those claiming otherwise they are just blinded by desire.
Those discounting the information are blinded by envy and/or butthurt.
The ForzaTech example should only be taken as an idea of the possibilities, not as the general rule
Lems are grasping at straws and damage controlling in this thread so much that they're now just building up the ownage to when Flopio performs nowhere near GTX1070 or GTX1080. You really have to be willfully ignorant to still believe in M$ PR hype.
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