Digital Foundry: Microsoft's Xbox One X Benchmarks Revealed: 4K vs 900p/1080p plus back-compat metrics

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#1 airraidjet
Member since 2006 • 834 Posts

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-microsofts-xbox-one-x-benchmarks-revealed

Revealed: Microsoft's Xbox One X benchmarks

Native 4K vs 900p/1080p on Xbox One - plus back-compat metrics.

We were hoping that E3 would be the venue to put to rest the question of Xbox One X's raw gaming potential, but only a handful of native titles were revealed - and as such, some degree of scepticism surrounds Microsoft's 'true 4K' claims. In the wake of the event, developers have come forward to talk about impressive results with the system: Monolith has confirmed native 4K for Shadow of War, while Respawn Entertainment says that Titanfall 2 dynamically scales up to 6K resolution. On top of that, Ark developer Studio Wildcard likens Xbox One X to a PC running a GTX 1070 with 16GB of RAM. Microsoft is bullish on the machine's native 4K credentials, with its own early benchmarks painting a compelling picture of the hardware's capabilities.

We're publishing those metrics today, but they need to be put into context. Our visit to Microsoft's Redmond campus at the end of March was sandwiched between two Microsoft 'XFest' developer events - one held in the UK a week before our visit, and another held in the US just after. David Cook, a software engineer at Microsoft's Advanced Technology Group (ATG) presented a detailed low-down of the Scorpio Engine GPU, covering many of the same details found in our Project Scorpio/Xbox One X hardware reveal - but bolsters the specs with detailed performance profiling. Despite talking to us exclusively about the hardware previously, Microsoft did not provide these numbers - we sourced them via developer contacts and we further verified them before publishing.

It's a fascinating insight into the performance characteristics of the Scorpio Engine. In addition to the data, the presentation reveals how GPU bottlenecks shift somewhat in the move from Xbox One to Xbox One X - compute power is a defining limitation of the base system, but in many scenarios, this shifts to memory, geometry or pixel limits on the new hardware, necessitating a change in direction from the developer. The focus on shifts back to compute - an area where the Scorpio Engine excels. Happily, Microsoft also appears to advocate a move from 4x to 8x anisotropic texture filtering too, very important in getting the most out of an ultra HD presentation.

Captures from Microsoft's performance analysis tool - PIX - were used to illustrate performance bottlenecks, with further captures used to demonstrate Xbox One X's resolution scalability. The data from nine titles was revealed, a mixture of games out now or still in development. You can see the table below with all of the information that was shared. It's sure to provoke plenty of guessing games in terms of what the titles actually are. We can be reasonable confident that titles B and C are Forza Motorsport 7 and Gears of War 4 respectively, while only Star Wars Battlefront possesses Title H's attributes. If we had to speculate, ReCore would be a likely candidate for Title A and Halo Wars 2 for Title G, but it really is speculation. The point is not so much what the games are, but how they scale on Xbox One X hardware compared to their performance on the basic model.

We were hoping that E3 would be the venue to put to rest the question of Xbox One X's raw gaming potential, but only a handful of native titles were revealed - and as such, some degree of scepticism surrounds Microsoft's 'true 4K' claims. In the wake of the event, developers have come forward to talk about impressive results with the system: Monolith has confirmed native 4K for Shadow of War, while Respawn Entertainment says that Titanfall 2 dynamically scales up to 6K resolution. On top of that, Ark developer Studio Wildcard likens Xbox One X to a PC running a GTX 1070 with 16GB of RAM. Microsoft is bullish on the machine's native 4K credentials, with its own early benchmarks painting a compelling picture of the hardware's capabilities.

We're publishing those metrics today, but they need to be put into context. Our visit to Microsoft's Redmond campus at the end of March was sandwiched between two Microsoft 'XFest' developer events - one held in the UK a week before our visit, and another held in the US just after. David Cook, a software engineer at Microsoft's Advanced Technology Group (ATG) presented a detailed low-down of the Scorpio Engine GPU, covering many of the same details found in our Project Scorpio/Xbox One X hardware reveal - but bolsters the specs with detailed performance profiling. Despite talking to us exclusively about the hardware previously, Microsoft did not provide these numbers - we sourced them via developer contacts and we further verified them before publishing.

It's a fascinating insight into the performance characteristics of the Scorpio Engine. In addition to the data, the presentation reveals how GPU bottlenecks shift somewhat in the move from Xbox One to Xbox One X - compute power is a defining limitation of the base system, but in many scenarios, this shifts to memory, geometry or pixel limits on the new hardware, necessitating a change in direction from the developer. The focus on shifts back to compute - an area where the Scorpio Engine excels. Happily, Microsoft also appears to advocate a move from 4x to 8x anisotropic texture filtering too, very important in getting the most out of an ultra HD presentation.

Captures from Microsoft's performance analysis tool - PIX - were used to illustrate performance bottlenecks, with further captures used to demonstrate Xbox One X's resolution scalability. The data from nine titles was revealed, a mixture of games out now or still in development. You can see the table below with all of the information that was shared. It's sure to provoke plenty of guessing games in terms of what the titles actually are. We can be reasonable confident that titles B and C are Forza Motorsport 7 and Gears of War 4 respectively, while only Star Wars Battlefront possesses Title H's attributes. If we had to speculate, ReCore would be a likely candidate for Title A and Halo Wars 2 for Title G, but it really is speculation. The point is not so much what the games are, but how they scale on Xbox One X hardware compared to their performance on the basic model.

To get these PIX metrics, all of the titles underwent the most basic of ports onto Project Scorpio development hardware - and this presents challenges in terms of getting data representative of final games. Firstly, an early iteration of the operating system was in place, while Scorpio-specific hardware features are entirely unused. Furthermore, ESRAM from the base Xbox One is mapped directly to GDDR5 in the new console with no tweaking - meaning that there will be plenty of read/writes between memory areas that are entirely wasteful and would not happen in a shipping title. On the flip-side though, these are entirely GPU-based benchmarks - meaning that memory contention issues between CPU and GPU aren't factored in. However, this applies for both base Xbox One and X performance.

Also worth bearing in mind is that these PIX results represent a single 'snapshot' of GPU activity - and GPU load varies dramatically throughout any given game. However, we can assume that they were chosen by Microsoft to be representative of how games scale from base Xbox One hardware to Xbox One X. While we've converted the metrics to frame-rate from the original frame-time (in order to make the information easier to absorb - original data is included as well in the charts below), it should be pointed out that this data is based on GPU time alone, and stands apart from any frame-rate cap the final title may implement. So for example, frame-time on Title B (almost certainly Forza Motorsport 7) is 13ms on Xbox One and 11ms at 4K on Xbox One X. An 11ms frame-time would translate to 90fps but obviously the final game locks to 60fps - as we know, Turn 10 will be using that overhead for improved visuals on the new console.

The presentation states that the design goal of Xbox One X was to run native 1080p titles with a 4x resolution boost, while during our visit, Microsoft had expanded the objective, saying that it wanted both 900p and 1080p game engines to run at 2160p. The data for most of the nine titles clearly demonstrates that the 4x resolution design goal is clearly met - even without access to new GPU features of the Xbox One X hardware. While the 900p scaling doesn't quite show the same kind of cut and dried improvement, two out of the three basic ports get there - or thereabouts - with hardware-specific optimisation likely to make up the difference.

Assuming Titles B and C are indeed Forza Motorsport 7 and Gears of War 4 respectively, we have real life parallels here between initial port data and optimised results present at E3. Turn 10's engine is indeed capable of hitting 60 frames per second with milliseconds to spare and with frame render time of 11ms, we get the 65 per cent GPU load from a title aiming for 60fps - precisely what we saw with the ForzaTech demo based on an older iteration of the engine. With that in mind, we're curious as to what upgrades Turn 10 has decided to deploy here compared to the basic Xbox One - certainly, texture filtering is looking great on the demo we've played.

Arguably more fascinating is Gears of War 4. There is overhead in the leap to 4K based on the benchmarks, but not a huge amount of it - not compared to Forza, at least. However, The Coalition announced upgrades for the game at E3 including higher resolution textures, higher polygon counts, longer draw distances, upgraded dynamic shadows and improved reflections. It's hard to believe that all of those could be accommodated in the relatively small render time improvement seen here, suggesting that more intensive optimisation for Xbox One X improves upon the raw benchmark result significantly.

And if that's the case, two of the three 900p titles tested here could conceivably attain native 4K resolution upgrades - Title A is just 1ms away from parity with base Xbox One, while Title E is just 2ms off pace, frame-times increasing by around five to six per cent in both cases. Clearly not every game will scale along those lines though. Title D - an open world adventure - clearly isn't going to make it. Perhaps coincidentally, open world adventure Assassin's Creed Origins made it to E3 running on Xbox One X hardware and producing a 2160p output, but requiring checkerboard and dynamic scaling to get there. The results still look impressive in motion though, clearly.

There's also been a certain amount of validation for Title H - almost certainly Star Wars Battlefront running on the Frostbite engine. Clearly a 720p title on base Xbox One isn't going to make it to native 4K on Xbox One X. The raw metrics here suggest that what was originally a 60fps experience would linger in 38fps territory - not surprising, bearing in mind we're looking at 9x increase in resolution. It's a topic we've discussed recently on how Xbox One X's arrival is good news for PS4 Pro. We speculated that the Frostbite team would adapt its Pro strategies for the X, and based on our analysis of Anthem, running at 2160p checkerboard on Microsoft's new console at the E3 media briefing, that's exactly what happened behind the scenes.

Beyond that, there are a couple of curiosities in the benchmarks - specifically, Title I - an in-development open world action game using an in-house engine based on DX12. Frame-times on base Xbox One hardware are measured at a staggering 59ms, suggesting that this section of game was profiled running at just 17 frames per second. There are gains running at native 4K on Xbox One X, and its performance does seem to be GPU-limited - if the CPU were an issue, the scaling would be far more limited in the back-compat results seen below.

n the documents we've seen, Microsoft provides like-for-like resolution data between base hardware and Xbox One X running at the same resolution. This may not seem particularly useful in and of itself - aside, perhaps, from revealing the staggering amount of GPU overhead available to developers if they decide to stick to the same resolution. However, this data does tie into the backwards compatibility functions Xbox One X has with existing Xbox One titles.

Looking at the table below, you'll see comparison data for Xbox One titles, along with how they run on X hardware based on two scenarios: whether they were compiled on the latest XDK development environment, or using an older one (essentially all existing titles). The Xbox One X native data represents titles compiled with the July 2017 XDK (in development when this presentation was made). Under the later XDK, every new Xbox One title will automatically gain Xbox One X performance improvements, seemingly even if the developer does not have access to an Xbox One X devkit and is targeting no bespoke improvements. As the data reveals, compiling with the new XDK represents a big improvement over older titles. So, what's going on here? Why aren't older titles compiled with older XDKs matching the results of the newer iteration?

Well, it turns out that compatibility with older games isn't a walk in the park, so pre-existing Xbox One titles default to a different set-up. In effect, half of the render back-end hardware is disabled and pixel and vertex shaders are each hived off to half of the 40 available compute units. It's a somewhat gross generalisation, but you could say that older games effectively get access to 3TF of power compared to the 1.31TF in the older Xbox One, and compared further to the 6TF accessible via the July XDK. As the improvements in render time demonstrate, pre-existing titles should get enough extra horsepower to max dynamic resolution titles and ramp up anisotropic filtering. Other back-compat enhancements promised by Microsoft - improved loading times, faster CPU power, RAM cache etc - are GPU dependent so out of the scope of these metrics but there's no reason to believe that they will not be delivered.

In this sense, Microsoft's implementation for compatibility - halving GPU resources, effectively - may also explain PS4 Pro's boost mode, where only the clock-speed increase seems to make any difference in purely GPU-bound scenarios. Perhaps a similar utilisation of the expanded GPU was in place there - the difference being that even with the same limitations, Xbox One X has the advantage of many more compute units, plus a much higher clock.

We're really looking forward to testing this out. In the absence of an Xbox One X patch, Halo 5 should be a fascinating test of back-compat functions and how the power impacts dynamic scaling. We'll also be wheeling out our perennial hardware upgrade test titles including Project Cars and Just Cause 3. Microsoft also suggests that developers utilise the latest XDK for patch updates of older games, even if there are no plans for specific Xbox One X features - and by default, this should automatically unlock the full 6TF of GPU power for the title.

There's more too, based on the documentation we've seen. The fundamental architecture of the Xbox One X GPU is a confirmed match for the original machine (believed to be the case for PS4 Pro too) with additional enhancements. There are other features, including AMD's delta colour compression, which sees performance increases of seven to nine per cent in two titles Microsoft tested. DCC is actually a feature exclusive to the DX12 API. In fact, DX11 moves into 'maintenance mode' on Xbox One X, suggesting that Microsoft is keen for developers to move on. There are benefits for both Xboxes in doing so - and there may be implications here for the PC versions too. We could really use improved DX12 support on PC, after all.

Microsoft's key advice for developers? Expect an easy port to Xbox One X with a baseline 4x resolution boost, start with your high-end PC settings, use the memory well and fill any extra frame-time with additional effects. Guard carefully against increased loading stalls and - yes - consider techniques like checkerboard rendering and dynamic resolution. We've certainly seen representation of the latter techniques already, but as we move closer to Gamescom and the run-up to the Xbox One X launch, these early benchmarks are fascinating - and how the scaling demonstrated here translates into final shipping software should be fascinating to track once we have hardware and games to test.

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#2  Edited By KMP
Member since 2017 • 380 Posts

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is the new great wonder of the world, the Great Wall of System Wars.

One assumes its complete lack of tact and boorish nature means it was created by none other than gamers.

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Juub1990

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#4 Juub1990
Member since 2013 • 12622 Posts

In b4 pie charts.

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#5 DaVillain  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 58624 Posts

^What else is new?

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scatteh316

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#6 scatteh316
Member since 2004 • 10273 Posts

Pretty much proof that PS4Pro will have the better look games from these charts.

PS4 simply offers a much higher baseline graphics for Pro to work with.

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#7 PinkAnimal
Member since 2017 • 2380 Posts

wtf are you doing? don't you know these types of threads attract ronbots? Copy-paste spam incoming

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#8 DaVillain  Moderator
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^That's the idea PinkAnimal, I'm hungry for some Cherry pie myself XD

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#9 navyguy21
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#10 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20498 Posts

Geez I just woke up to post this!

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#11 navyguy21
Member since 2003 • 17915 Posts

@Zero_epyon said:

Geez I just woke up to post this!

Come on Zero, get it together!

I was actually surprised that you hadnt posted it yet

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#12 NFJSupreme
Member since 2005 • 6605 Posts

@scatteh316: that doesn't make sense and you are leaving out the part about extra head room. Complete logic fail on your part

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#13 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20498 Posts

So to summarize what's happening here:

Some games run slower at 4K when ported from a sub 1080p resolution. Games that run at 1080p can run as fast or slightly faster at 4K. This goes for games that are in development using DX12 as well. Their example game that they guessed was Gears 4 turned in 4K at about ~37 fps. This is likely single player which is why they need to do dynamic scaling for MP to hit 60 fps.

AAA games will most likely not hit 4K and instead use checkerboard or even a dynamic scaler just like the PS4 Pro.

The X1X is not a GTX 1070.

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#15 navyguy21
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@Zero_epyon said:

So to summarize what's happening here:

Some games run slower at 4K when ported from a sub 1080p resolution. Games that run at 1080p can run as fast or slightly faster at 4K. This goes for games that are in development using DX12 as well. Their example game that they guessed was Gears 4 turned in 4K at about ~37 fps. This is likely single player which is why they need to do dynamic scaling for MP to hit 60 fps.

AAA games will most likely not hit 4K and instead use checkerboard or even a dynamic scaler just like the PS4 Pro.

The X1X is not a GTX 1070.

How in the world is that your take away?

He talked extensively about the lack of optimized porting, not even time taken to properly port ESRAM instructions.

This was a video about the ease of porting and potential of the system, its not to take away a final representation of what the hardware is capable of.

Why do you do this kind of spin when it comes to Microsoft or Xbox?

Ive seen this from you a lot.

I generally like your DF video postings put its getting a bit hard to read with all of the biased spin.

Just be objective about it, people will still read your thread and posts.

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#16  Edited By Howmakewood
Member since 2015 • 7832 Posts

@crashbandicoot: did @gordonfreeman get banned?

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#22  Edited By mowgly1
Member since 2017 • 2994 Posts

"True" 4k, yall!

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#23 DaVillain  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 58624 Posts

@navyguy21 said:
@Zero_epyon said:

So to summarize what's happening here:

Some games run slower at 4K when ported from a sub 1080p resolution. Games that run at 1080p can run as fast or slightly faster at 4K. This goes for games that are in development using DX12 as well. Their example game that they guessed was Gears 4 turned in 4K at about ~37 fps. This is likely single player which is why they need to do dynamic scaling for MP to hit 60 fps.

AAA games will most likely not hit 4K and instead use checkerboard or even a dynamic scaler just like the PS4 Pro.

The X1X is not a GTX 1070.

How in the world is that your take away?

He talked extensively about the lack of optimized porting, not even time taken to properly port ESRAM instructions.

This was a video about the ease of porting and potential of the system, its not to take away a final representation of what the hardware is capable of.

Why do you do this kind of spin when it comes to Microsoft or Xbox?

Ive seen this from you a lot.

I generally like your DF video postings put its getting a bit hard to read with all of the biased spin.

Just be objective about it, people will still read your thread and posts.

I think what Zero is saying, both PS4 Pro/Xbox One X are just NOT even ready for 4K at all despite PC can barely hit 4K/60fps unless your doing SLI.

After watching DF vids on there take with Xbox One X, 4K is way ahead of it's time when it comes to consoles trying to go at it and I personally think 4K should have been reserve for next-gen consoles when the tech components become cheaper and more affordable using 4K on consoles.

I don't however agree with Zero's on his take with AAA games not maximizing 4K. I think Halo 6 has a huge shot at 4K gaming since I always consider Halo to be pushing Xbox hardware as far as it can go. Hell, Halo 4 push the 360 hardware to it's limits.

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#24  Edited By Phazevariance
Member since 2003 • 12356 Posts

@Zero_epyon said:

So to summarize what's happening here:

Some games run slower at 4K when ported from a sub 1080p resolution. Games that run at 1080p can run as fast or slightly faster at 4K. This goes for games that are in development using DX12 as well. Their example game that they guessed was Gears 4 turned in 4K at about ~37 fps. This is likely single player which is why they need to do dynamic scaling for MP to hit 60 fps.

AAA games will most likely not hit 4K and instead use checkerboard or even a dynamic scaler just like the PS4 Pro.

The X1X is not a GTX 1070.

You're leaving out a pretty fundamental detail, shocking from you...

"To get these PIX metrics, all of the titles underwent the most basic of ports onto Xbox One X development hardware - and this presents challenges in terms of getting data representative of final games."

Expecting genuine posting around here is a pretty big request, what this means is this game software was optimized for this platform in zero capacity, they simply got the games running on it and benched it. These are brute force performance metrics with no hardware specific software support and not even close to indicative of reliable final game data and performance.

This is a pretty important fact. The devs simply need to optimize for xONEx starting from the baseline and they can likley get better performance out of those games. Leaving it alone, as a straight port with no added touches and they get the results shown in the video. Adding checkerboard or res scaling is the cheap way to accomplish the upgrade.

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#25 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20498 Posts

@navyguy21 said:
@Zero_epyon said:

So to summarize what's happening here:

Some games run slower at 4K when ported from a sub 1080p resolution. Games that run at 1080p can run as fast or slightly faster at 4K. This goes for games that are in development using DX12 as well. Their example game that they guessed was Gears 4 turned in 4K at about ~37 fps. This is likely single player which is why they need to do dynamic scaling for MP to hit 60 fps.

AAA games will most likely not hit 4K and instead use checkerboard or even a dynamic scaler just like the PS4 Pro.

The X1X is not a GTX 1070.

How in the world is that your take away?

He talked extensively about the lack of optimized porting, not even time taken to properly port ESRAM instructions.

This was a video about the ease of porting and potential of the system, its not to take away a final representation of what the hardware is capable of.

Why do you do this kind of spin when it comes to Microsoft or Xbox?

Ive seen this from you a lot.

I generally like your DF video postings put its getting a bit hard to read with all of the biased spin.

Just be objective about it, people will still read your thread and posts.

I'm surprised by your reaction as well.

What was explained in the video was nothing particularly new about what we know about X1X and performance. I specifically mentioned Gears 4 for a reason. This is what the devs had to say about Gears 4 on X1X:

In a post on the Gear of War website, technical director Mike Rayner explained all the day one features and improvements. “We’re running at 4K 30FPS for Campaign/Horde and 4K 60FPS for Versus with adaptive scaling to ensure a rock-solid frame rate that fans expect from our head to head multiplayer,” Rayner said.

These benchmarks gives us a better idea as to why these games have these particular targets. Sure they're not optimized for X1X and can be improved, but what kind of improvement do you expect to see?

Also, here's what DF had to say about games that are 900p and below:

But it's perhaps the 900p third-party games (where base PS4 typically hits full 1080p) that will be more illuminating. Microsoft says that while the porting work will be more involved, these too should hit native 4K. However, just like PS4 Pro, the GPU has hardware support for checkerboarding and other pixel-efficient techniques, which Microsoft expects to see rolled out on the small amount of games on Xbox One that drop beneath 900p

It's entirely possible that AAA third party games are going to be made for Xbox One S at 900p or 720p and then checkerboarded to 4K.

Think about this. The assumed AC title at 4K 30 runs 24% slower at 4K than at 1080p30 and drops to averages at 24fps. What we know about AC: Origins is that it's checkerboard 4K while also using a dynamic scaler.

And then there's the assumed Battlefont title, the 720p60 game they think is battlefront. It went 56% over the gpu budget and ran at 38 fps at 4K. If devs like Dice are going to develop the game with Xbox One in mind, they will likely not be able to hit 4K natively and be 60 FPS while also supporting Xbox One S at 720p60. A game like Anthem is going through the same paces.

So yeah that's what I got from it.

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#26 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20498 Posts

@davillain- said:
@navyguy21 said:
@Zero_epyon said:

So to summarize what's happening here:

Some games run slower at 4K when ported from a sub 1080p resolution. Games that run at 1080p can run as fast or slightly faster at 4K. This goes for games that are in development using DX12 as well. Their example game that they guessed was Gears 4 turned in 4K at about ~37 fps. This is likely single player which is why they need to do dynamic scaling for MP to hit 60 fps.

AAA games will most likely not hit 4K and instead use checkerboard or even a dynamic scaler just like the PS4 Pro.

The X1X is not a GTX 1070.

How in the world is that your take away?

He talked extensively about the lack of optimized porting, not even time taken to properly port ESRAM instructions.

This was a video about the ease of porting and potential of the system, its not to take away a final representation of what the hardware is capable of.

Why do you do this kind of spin when it comes to Microsoft or Xbox?

Ive seen this from you a lot.

I generally like your DF video postings put its getting a bit hard to read with all of the biased spin.

Just be objective about it, people will still read your thread and posts.

I think what Zero is saying, both PS4 Pro/Xbox One X are just NOT even ready for 4K at all despite PC can barely hit 4K/60fps unless your doing SLI.

After watching DF vids on there take with Xbox One X, 4K is way ahead of it's time when it comes to consoles trying to go at it and I personally think 4K should have been reserve for next-gen consoles when the tech components become cheaper and more affordable using 4K on consoles.

I don't however agree with Zero's on his take with AAA games not maximizing 4K. I think Halo 6 has a huge shot at 4K gaming since I always consider Halo to be pushing Xbox hardware as far as it can go. Hell, Halo 4 push the 360 hardware to it's limits.

I will admit that I should have said AAA Third Party titles. I do think that Halo 6 will use a dynamic resolution for both SP and MP to keep the 60 fps. They did it with Halo 5, so I don't see them getting rid of it now when they can crank up some visuals along the way.

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#27  Edited By Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20498 Posts

@navyguy21 said:
@Zero_epyon said:

Geez I just woke up to post this!

Come on Zero, get it together!

I was actually surprised that you hadnt posted it yet

Can't help it if the video is put up while I'm sleeping. It was 7:00 AM where I live.

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#28 kvally
Member since 2014 • 8445 Posts

Saw that this morning. That is some great stuff, and great news for gamers. November 7th can't get here soon enough.

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#29 Alucard_Prime
Member since 2008 • 10107 Posts

Good stuff.....impressive results by just straight porting, so any dev who puts in more effort will produce even better results most likely. At the end of the day I just want a significant upgrade boost to my graphics, and the XOneX will provide that. The article also reminds me with its opening something that Microsoft had stated in the past, that it was the devs that kept giving them the 6TF number for "true 4K", so that's the number they went with based on dev feedback. Sure not all games will be Native 4K, and often this could be in lieu of 60 fps, but that's fine for me and I consider the XOneX an entry level 4K machine.

I presume as time moves forward we will get to see more 4K Native titles, due to increased optimization and other factors. Bottom line is you need a 4K TV to get the most out of these mid-gen console upgrades, some games will be native 4K, others will be upscaled with or without dynamic res in place, etc. but I'm already impressed with the HDR effect on some games via the X1S, stoked to apply the XOneX supercharged treatment to my existing library and seeing the results of improved optimization further down the road with some of the newer stuff that will come out.

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#30 PinkAnimal
Member since 2017 • 2380 Posts

@Phazevariance said:
@Zero_epyon said:

So to summarize what's happening here:

Some games run slower at 4K when ported from a sub 1080p resolution. Games that run at 1080p can run as fast or slightly faster at 4K. This goes for games that are in development using DX12 as well. Their example game that they guessed was Gears 4 turned in 4K at about ~37 fps. This is likely single player which is why they need to do dynamic scaling for MP to hit 60 fps.

AAA games will most likely not hit 4K and instead use checkerboard or even a dynamic scaler just like the PS4 Pro.

The X1X is not a GTX 1070.

You're leaving out a pretty fundamental detail, shocking from you...

"To get these PIX metrics, all of the titles underwent the most basic of ports onto Xbox One X development hardware - and this presents challenges in terms of getting data representative of final games."

Expecting genuine posting around here is a pretty big request, what this means is this game software was optimized for this platform in zero capacity, they simply got the games running on it and benched it. These are brute force performance metrics with no hardware specific software support and not even close to indicative of reliable final game data and performance.

This is a pretty important fact. The devs simply need to optimize for xONEx starting from the baseline and they can likley get better performance out of those games. Leaving it alone, as a straight port with no added touches and they get the results shown in the video. Adding checkerboard or res scaling is the cheap way to accomplish the upgrade.

Why would third party devs spend much time optimizing for a machine that, even by Microsoft's own admission, is not meant to sell a lot? Devs won't do much for it as devs don't do much for the PS4 Pro either. That's why first party games are where these machines could shine but Microsoft's first party is pretty lackluster to say the least.

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#31 kvally
Member since 2014 • 8445 Posts

@pinkanimal said:
@Phazevariance said:
@Zero_epyon said:

So to summarize what's happening here:

Some games run slower at 4K when ported from a sub 1080p resolution. Games that run at 1080p can run as fast or slightly faster at 4K. This goes for games that are in development using DX12 as well. Their example game that they guessed was Gears 4 turned in 4K at about ~37 fps. This is likely single player which is why they need to do dynamic scaling for MP to hit 60 fps.

AAA games will most likely not hit 4K and instead use checkerboard or even a dynamic scaler just like the PS4 Pro.

The X1X is not a GTX 1070.

You're leaving out a pretty fundamental detail, shocking from you...

"To get these PIX metrics, all of the titles underwent the most basic of ports onto Xbox One X development hardware - and this presents challenges in terms of getting data representative of final games."

Expecting genuine posting around here is a pretty big request, what this means is this game software was optimized for this platform in zero capacity, they simply got the games running on it and benched it. These are brute force performance metrics with no hardware specific software support and not even close to indicative of reliable final game data and performance.

This is a pretty important fact. The devs simply need to optimize for xONEx starting from the baseline and they can likley get better performance out of those games. Leaving it alone, as a straight port with no added touches and they get the results shown in the video. Adding checkerboard or res scaling is the cheap way to accomplish the upgrade.

Why would third party devs spend much time optimizing for a machine that, even by Microsoft's own admission, is not meant to sell a lot?

Because they are optimizing for PC, which carries over to the X1X in a day or two port. Then they can downsample to X1S/PS Pro/PS4. That was Microsoft's goal, which was to make it a PC environment so there is no porting issues with PC to X1X. That is why we keep seeing developers now stating it's taking them a day or two to port to X1X from the PC version.

It's pretty slick. In reality, the X1X seems to just be a PC in a closed box now.

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#32 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 46871 Posts

Watched that earlier and things look quite promising for the Xbox One X considering that these are straight ports. I'm very much looking forward to seeing how many of my current Xbox Ones games will look and run on the new system. I'm also very much looking forward to seeing how new games might take advantage of the more powerful hardware as well.

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#34  Edited By ellos
Member since 2015 • 2532 Posts

So does this mean Battlefront 2 does not look like is going to be any where near native 4k 60. Battlefront 1 38fps 4k. All of this is speculation still though but perhaps answers why some games will use checkerboarding.

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#35  Edited By deactivated-642321fb121ca
Member since 2013 • 7142 Posts

@scatteh316 said:

Pretty much proof that PS4Pro will have the better look games from these charts.

PS4 simply offers a much higher baseline graphics for Pro to work with.

Exclusives will always look better, MS has none unfortunately.

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#36  Edited By Howmakewood
Member since 2015 • 7832 Posts

@ellos said:

So does this mean Battlefront 2 does not look like is going to be any where near native 4k 60. Battlefront 1 38fps 4k. All of this is speculation still though but perhaps answers why some games will use checkerboarding.

well going from 720p to 4K is a huge leap so that was more than expected.

if xbox one runs the game on 1080p its pretty safe to assume one X can hit 4K, 900p is quite the stretch but might be possible, 720p is just no

obviously its not 1:1 for every title as engines scale different, but its pretty good baseline assumption

some 1080p games may use higher quality assets, effects etc on one X and opt to go for under 4k render for better visuals too

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#38  Edited By Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20498 Posts

@ellos said:

So does this mean Battlefront 2 does not look like is going to be any where near native 4k 60. Battlefront 1 38fps 4k. All of this is speculation still though but perhaps answers why some games will use checkerboarding.

Exaclty. This is what I got from that too.

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#39 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20498 Posts

@howmakewood said:
@ellos said:

So does this mean Battlefront 2 does not look like is going to be any where near native 4k 60. Battlefront 1 38fps 4k. All of this is speculation still though but perhaps answers why some games will use checkerboarding.

well going from 720p to 4K is a huge leap so that was more than expected.

if xbox one runs the game on 1080p its pretty safe to assume one X can hit 4K, 900p is quite the stretch but might be possible, 720p is just no

obviously its not 1:1 for every title as engines scale different, but its pretty good baseline assumption

some 1080p games may use higher quality assets, effects etc on one X and opt to go for under 4k render for better visuals too

I would be amazed if Dice were to make BF2 1080p/60 on Xbox One S from 720p/60 with the first entry.

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#40 aroxx_ab
Member since 2005 • 13236 Posts

720p...? lol

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#41 Howmakewood
Member since 2015 • 7832 Posts

@Zero_epyon: Insert *Magic*

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#42 pdogg93
Member since 2015 • 1849 Posts

@kuu2: lol I hope you're on ms payroll. Your cheerleading is so cute!

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#43 shellcase86
Member since 2012 • 6889 Posts

If you're going to just copy and paste an entire article w/o any kind of comment in your original post -- a link will suffice.

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#44  Edited By xxyetixx
Member since 2004 • 3041 Posts

@scatteh316: no, it shows what happens if zero optimization is done on a game. While the fanboys are getting caught up in their FauxK war and it's not true 4K blah blah blah. What the cows are failing to realize is that "if" X1X is using scaling to hit 2140p from a lower resolution, what resolution do you think PS4 Pro is hitting then scaling up to, to be almost FauxK resolution. X1X is just better over all, whether those differences are noticable to the mass is the question.

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#45 drummerdave9099
Member since 2010 • 4606 Posts

yawn

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#46 gamecubepad
Member since 2003 • 7214 Posts
@Zero_epyon said:

Think about this. The assumed AC title at 4K 30 runs 24% slower at 4K than at 1080p30 and drops to averages at 24fps. What we know about AC: Origins is that it's checkerboard 4K while also using a dynamic scaler.

What's this assumed AC title running at 1080p/30fps? I don't see it listed in the charts...

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#48 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20498 Posts

@gamecubepad said:
@Zero_epyon said:

Think about this. The assumed AC title at 4K 30 runs 24% slower at 4K than at 1080p30 and drops to averages at 24fps. What we know about AC: Origins is that it's checkerboard 4K while also using a dynamic scaler.

What's this assumed AC title running at 1080p/30fps? I don't see it listed in the charts...

whoops I meant to type 900p. And I think DF made the same mistake in their video. It's supposed to be 900p.

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#49  Edited By gamecubepad
Member since 2003 • 7214 Posts

@Zero_epyon:

This is the 2nd time in the past hour you have misread a chart...

Getting to native 4k would be very hard with a straight port of AC for multiple reasons:

1. Ubisoft.

2. Parity. AC Origins was 900p on both XO and PS4. In fact sub-30fps as well going by the DF PiX chart.

3. As I linked to you previously, Ubisoft has been on the forefront of what they call 'Temporal Filtering', otherwise known as checkboard rendering and temporal anti-aliasing. Combine with PS4 Pro's use/need of CBR and reason #2...

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#50 AdobeArtist  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 25184 Posts
@scatteh316 said:

Pretty much proof that PS4Pro will have the better look games from these charts.

PS4 simply offers a much higher baseline graphics for Pro to work with.

Just what in any of that article brought you to this fallacious conclusion?