Do you hate Epic now that u know what they did to Silicon Knights?

[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]SK is suing them because Epic charged them an exhorbant licensing fee? Uh.............yeah this lawsuit is going to flop hard, very very hard.Vandalvideo

but they (SK) are intitled for feed-back, updates, and "how-to"... and according to them Epic just "cut them off"

I respect both these devs. and one thing is certain, if this matter is settled out of court; it means to me that Epic prob. is culpable.

In that event, Epic will be hard at work trying to help in all ways to make Too Human a huge success or else !!!

SecretPolice

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Contextually, they are only obligated to give them the engine, which they did in abundant ammount of time. Its Silicon Knights that claims that the coding was insufficient and had multiple problems. However, on the other hand, Epic claims the same build of the engine is what was used for the same E3 Gears presentation. If you ask me, this colors Silicon in the wrong.Grive

Not necessarily right. It depends on the contract.

Anyway, has anyone READ the lawsuit? SK does have an argument here, and asking for all the profits GeoW made is standard in lawsuits: Shoot for the stars, you don't want to limit your potential winnings because you were modest. That's why people keep asking for hundreds of millions of dollars because they fell down.

The whole crux of the matter is divided into a couple of claims:

1.- Epic was six months late in delivering UE3 for the 360, and is currently six months late in delivering it for the PS3. This has caused SK problems (since they did not have the engine for E3, which resulted in a poor showing).

2.- Epic was so busy with Gears that it did not provide adequate support. This seems to be true, as other UE licensees (notably Turok devs) have stated it's quicker to find a solution themselves than to wait for Epic.

3.- The Engine is uncapable, in it's current state, of fulfilling the technical requirements of MS without heavy reworking. According to SK, Epic assured them that the engine would be capable of doing this.

It's important to note that despite what it looks like, the lawsuit is timely: SK only received the UE3 engine in November 2006, and has been trying to make it work since then. Their latest problem came in february 2007, and if you consider the time needed to both try and solve the matter peacefully and prepare a lawsuit, july 2007 sounds like an appropiate date.

There is more, but that's the gist of it, as I saw it when reading the lawsuit last night. Depending on the contract, all these claims could very well be easily held in court. SK stated that they tried to work this out with Epic and that it was fruitless, and there's no actual evidence that the UE3 is workable outside of Gears.

Currently, there are three UE3 games out there: Gears of War, Roboblitz... and Hour of Victory. Rainbow Six Vegas uses UE2. The roboblitz dev noted that if it had been a full retail game, any publisher would've dropped the game because of the delays and necessary reworkings on the engine, and Hour of Victory, well, it's Hour of Victory. Every other UE3 game has been delayed.

So, in short, seems SK might have a case. Dennis Dyack is a monkey, a whiner and a barrel full of negative descriptors... but he might be right this time.

EDIT: I stupidly forgot to add the most important part. SK has an agreement to exclusively use UE3. However, since they've had these problems, they've basically made their own engine. Basically they want out of a bad partnership, and to save on licensing an engine they're no longer using but are forced to purchase.

VERY VERY NICE POST indeed... props to the poster, lol too bad i couldn't write something as organized and focused as this lol but it's basically what i was trying to say :P

[QUOTE="cyprus646"]I dont have a problem with epic I just have a problem with some of there employees like Cliffy B who feels its alright to snubb 360 owners out of gears of war and UT3 with only gibing them some of the game and not all of it.mismajor99

Quit your whining. You know who got snubbed kid? PC Gamers who didn't get to play the game last year, who have always enjoyed Epic's games throughout the years, and is the reason Epic got to where they are today. Gears coming to PC was inevitable, if you wanna play it, upgrade your rig and shut your trap.

[QUOTE="cyprus646"]I dont have a problem with epic I just have a problem with some of there employees like Cliffy B who feels its alright to snubb 360 owners out of gears of war and UT3 with only gibing them some of the game and not all of it.mismajor99

Quit your whining. You know who got snubbed kid? PC Gamers who didn't get to play the game last year, who have always enjoyed Epic's games throughout the years, and is the reason Epic got to where they are today. Gears coming to PC was inevitable, if you wanna play it, upgrade your rig and shut your trap.

Thanks, you saved me the trouble of saying it myself.

SK is suing them because Epic charged them an exhorbant licensing fee? Uh.............yeah this lawsuit is going to flop hard, very very hard.Vandalvideo

false...read up on the lawsuit..Id be suprised if SK didn't win

[QUOTE="mismajor99"]

[QUOTE="cyprus646"]I dont have a problem with epic I just have a problem with some of there employees like Cliffy B who feels its alright to snubb 360 owners out of gears of war and UT3 with only gibing them some of the game and not all of it.cyprus646

Quit your whining. You know who got snubbed kid? PC Gamers who didn't get to play the game last year, who have always enjoyed Epic's games throughout the years, and is the reason Epic got to where they are today. Gears coming to PC was inevitable, if you wanna play it, upgrade your rig and shut your trap.

Some people take these games really serious. Epic had to add more features to gears because it's already a year old so they had to do something to get sales. If it was the same game with nothing extra all you would hear is "it's just another console port"

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]SK is suing them because Epic charged them an exhorbant licensing fee? Uh.............yeah this lawsuit is going to flop hard, very very hard.primetime2121

false...read up on the lawsuit..Id be suprised if SK didn't win

[QUOTE="primetime2121"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]SK is suing them because Epic charged them an exhorbant licensing fee? Uh.............yeah this lawsuit is going to flop hard, very very hard.Vandalvideo

false...read up on the lawsuit..Id be suprised if SK didn't win

but that is just one of the charges..there are others that are very easy for SK to prove

There are too many people here arguing about this when they clearly haven't even read the news article. It's not licensing fees at all, its the fact that SK thinks UE3 is inadequate, and that Epic have not fulfilled their contract obligations via:

Promising to deliver the engine three months after dev kits for the PS3/xbox 360 were in developer's hands. This did not happen. The 360 version of the engine was late. The PS3 version still hasn't surfaced.

SK find that the engine suffers from horrible slowdown, and have received no support from Epic at all to address this issue; as per their contract agreements

Many developers are having issues with the engine which epic aren't addressing; many of these issues HAVE been fixed however, for Epic's own Gears of War.

Epic has advised many developers to go about certain things like particle affects one way, but have gone on to do a completely different, far more effective method in their own games. The idea being simply that they only seem to care when its their own product suffering.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="primetime2121"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]SK is suing them because Epic charged them an exhorbant licensing fee? Uh.............yeah this lawsuit is going to flop hard, very very hard.primetime2121

false...read up on the lawsuit..Id be suprised if SK didn't win

but that is just one of the charges..there are others that are very easy for SK to prove

Ok, so which games currently or upcoming games are using the UE3? And what games have been delayed by using the UE3?Blue-Sphere

Is that how you wanna defend Epic? By using child's logic?

no, sillicon knights should hire more talented people. look at the broken trailer for god sake....furtherfan

I never thought I could feel this way about a game company... but Epic has crossed the line here. It looks like blatant sabotage. They sold an item, that was supposed to be able to deliver Gears'esque graphics, only they witheld key elements of that engine to people who purchased based on those facts... and then told them they couldnt modify it. When your counting on somebody, and they let you dont like this in business... it = lawsuit.

Another bad move by Epic.... clearly rushing Gears of War on the 360, and then screwing early adopters by not offering the additional PC levels. Thats the last game I will buy from Epic.

Very shortly I believe others are going to come out with complaints as well... clearly the engine wasnt sufficient for bio shock if they are running a highly modified version of it.

This seems to me to be a very clear and cut case.... If so, Epic might be going out of business as SK is calling for major punitive damages.

You're mistaken here. I did not claim that Silicon Knight's claims were entirely unfounded. Using your own words, not entirely right. It depends entirely upon IF Epic had intentionally provided faulty engines in an untimely manner in order to curb competition. This is a SERIOUS charge, and could have huge implications for a company whose main revenue is engine licensing. However, I have my doubts that they would have done something like this. At this momment in time, Epic is innocent. Its way too premature to be saying they COMMITED what Silicon Knights claims they did. Vandalvideo

You did claim that Epic had no obligation to provide support, and you did claim that SK just wants out of an "exhorbitant" licensing fee.

The faulty engines thing is an implication, and SK's lawsuit states that in practice, it's what happened. However, that's not the only or the main claim of SK. SK claimed that:

-the finalized engine was late. Very late. This is easily provable or disprovable, so I'm guessing it's true - only a moron would sue otherwise*.

-They also claim that Epic had the engine ready before they shipped it to licensees. If the first claim is true, then this one is, too, considering that Gears of War was fully done and ready before the final engine build was sent to SK.

-They also claim that the engine is uncapable of doing things Epic promised it would. I have no idea of how true is this, and it might be harder to prove, though there might be documentation. Mark Rein has stated that much of Dyack's problems has to be solved by the devteam for each game, instead of at engine level. If Dyack has a document where Epic promises these functions, it's in the bag for SK, if not, well, it's harder to prove.

- Another claim is that the support was inadequate. This is a position echoed by other developers independent of the case. This seems to be true, but the real problem is if the support was less than what Epic was contractually obligated to.

The lawsuit states that all these factors -compounded by an obvious and undeniable conflict of interest on Epic's part- essentially ended up in Epic giving SK a faulty engine in E3 06, which ended up with SK having to do a poor performance, which has made them suffer financially. If SK has the evidence (and if it exists, it's easily acquirable), then Epic's in for a rough ride.

*Then again, Dyack IS a moron, so...

Ok, so which games currently or upcoming games are using the UE3? And what games have been delayed by using the UE3?Blue-Sphere

Pretty much all UE3 games have been delayed or suffered problems, except GeoW and Hour of Victory... and well, HoV shouldn't count as a positive proof of the engine.

Sk is being dumb, all the profits from GeOW, just stupid.FusionApex

We've been through this. It's not dumb, it's standard procedure in lawsuits. Just ask as much as you could concievably justify, then go down from there. You won't ever get more than what you asked in the first place, and chances are you always will get less...

SK are a relatively small developer and, despite how good Epic's games are, seems like they are in the right.KirbyFan10101

Seems like they are in the right? So you automatically assume that SK's ALLEGATIONS are correct without Epic even having a chance to defend themselves? I really hope you never become a lawyer....

[QUOTE="KirbyFan10101"]SK are a relatively small developer and, despite how good Epic's games are, seems like they are in the right.SpaceDragonMan

Seems like they are in the right? So you automatically assume that SK's ALLEGATIONS are correct without Epic even having a chance to defend themselves? I really hope you never become a lawyer....

.......that's how lawyers work. They get paid to beilieve you are the right one and are paid to prove it.

You did claim that Epic had no obligation to provide support, and you did claim that SK just wants out of an "exhorbitant" licensing fee.The faulty engines thing is an implication, and SK's lawsuit states that in practice, it's what happened. However, that's not the only or the main claim of SK. SK claimed that:-the finalized engine was late. Very late. This is easily provable or disprovable, so I'm guessing it's true - only a moron would sue otherwise*. -They also claim that Epic had the engine ready before they shipped it to licensees. If the first claim is true, then this one is, too, considering that Gears of War was fully done and ready before the final engine build was sent to SK. -They also claim that the engine is uncapable of doing things Epic promised it would. I have no idea of how true is this, and it might be harder to prove, though there might be documentation. Mark Rein has stated that much of Dyack's problems has to be solved by the devteam for each game, instead of at engine level. If Dyack has a document where Epic promises these functions, it's in the bag for SK, if not, well, it's harder to prove. - Another claim is that the support was inadequate. This is a position echoed by other developers independent of the case. This seems to be true, but the real problem is if the support was less than what Epic was contractually obligated to.The lawsuit states that all these factors -compounded by an obvious and undeniable conflict of interest on Epic's part- essentially ended up in Epic giving SK a faulty engine in E3 06, which ended up with SK having to do a poor performance, which has made them suffer financially. If SK has the evidence (and if it exists, it's easily acquirable), then Epic's in for a rough ride. *Then again, Dyack IS a moron, so...[Grive

Epic is innocent.Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="SpaceDragonMan"]

[QUOTE="KirbyFan10101"]SK are a relatively small developer and, despite how good Epic's games are, seems like they are in the right.hkmp5a2

Seems like they are in the right? So you automatically assume that SK's ALLEGATIONS are correct without Epic even having a chance to defend themselves? I really hope you never become a lawyer....

.......that's how lawyers work. They get paid to beilieve you are the right one and are paid to prove it.

yeah you're right, I should have said Judge instead of Lawyer

You're taking my statements out of context. I did not implicitly state that SK did not have a case. I'm merely pushing the fact that Epic is innocent at this momment in time. Theres no reason to "hate" epic for something that Silicon Knights "claims" they did. I did acknowledge that they have some very valid "claims", but these claims hardly constitute "fact". I claim you stole thousands of dollars from cuban immigrant drug dealers. Is it true? Epic is innocent.Vandalvideo

Actually... I did.

:P just kidding, just kidding.

It's just your comments have been hardly neutral. It's one thing saying Epic is to be considered innocent right now (it should), and it's another thing to twist SK's claims as you've done.

In any case, I'm in the neutral camp, too, even if I tend to mention how SK could be able to win - I just find it unlikely that Epic's free of blame, legally speaking.

I was sent an UE3 dev kit through the post a while back. I opened it up only to find a note inside, it said "make your own".....

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!!!DAMN YOU EPIC!!!!!!

I was sent an UE3 dev kit through the post a while back. I opened it up only to find a note inside, it said "make your own".....

.

.

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!!!DAMN YOU EPIC!!!!!!

Hoobinator

lLOLl :lol: WTF!