Dumbing down for consoles...

So UT3 was released around the same time as Crysis and I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong in saying that the majority of hermits have preferred Crysis and have been disappointed by UT3.

Hermits have blamed this on the devs dumbing down UT3 for the PS3 and 360 versions, and they're probably right. Some reviewers have stated that the game feels like a console game. Also, feelings about Bioshock tend to be similar with most hermits claiming that SS2 was far less casualised.

Do you think the industry is changing, in the sense that consoles are being focused on more so than the PC now? Will devs focus more/less/about the same on consoles in the future? And do you support/not support the whole "dumbing down for consoles" thing?

ie. Supporting it would mean you want devs to make games for consoles despite a possible loss in quality / more casual games, and not supporting it would mean you want devs to focus solely on the PC version and make it less casual.

I ask because Far Cry 2 has recently been announced for consoles and it could potentially lead to the same UT3 scenario happening. What do you guys think about this issue?

Everytime a Pc-centric franchise changes into console-centric it gets dumbed down.sometmes more, sometimes less, but it happens every single time. We can't be sure it's "consoles' fault", but it does happen every single time, so no wonder pcgamers don't like it when yet another game is annouced as multiplat.

I find myself loosing most of my interest behind the gme as soon as it becomes multiplat. It's irrational, because often the IP stays PC-centric and consoles just get a port (which means console versions don't affect PC ones), but i actualy do have to remind myself about that. Otherwise I always somehow forget to include Mafia2 or crossing in my most wanted games list. And Mafia is one of my favorite games of all time and Darkmessiah was my second favorite game of 2006. So it's irrational, but I guess I've been scarred by Xbox generation that deeply.

Still, there's also an upside of it. Dumbed down games sell worse on PC. if you look at current and upcoming pcgames there's a lot of niche genres making a come back. I doubt we would see resurgence of racing sims, puzzle ,adventure, wargames, 4X or simulators if it wasn't for dumbing for of the big franchises making more place for small companies in PCmarket.

Problem - The same interface that works at fifteen feet doesn't work at two feet. Font sizes, health bars, inventory menus, all of these must be changed from console to PC.

Problem - Controls, a keyboard gives you dozens of exact digital buttons, with the mouse giving you one solid, precise analog axis - joysticks give you two imprecise axis of rotation and limited access to pressing digital buttons. Controls work radically different - and while you can ask the PC gamer to plug in a controller, the game is fundamentally changed.

Problem - Memory, consoles tend to hurt for RAM, meaning PC expansive experiences, such as World of Warcraft, Crysis, or STALKER, are hard to make happen on consoles. When a console game goes to PC, it has trouble competing with the area size and complexity of a game built with a higher minimum memory.

Everytime a Pc-centric franchise changes into console-centric it gets dumbed down.sometmes more, sometimes less, but it happens every single time. We can't be sure it's "consoles' fault", but it does happen every single time, so no wonder pcgamers don't like it when yet another game is annouced as multiplat.

I find myself loosing most of my interest behind the gme as soon as it becomes multiplat. It's irrational, because often the IP stays PC-centric and consoles just get a port (which means console versions don't affect PC ones), but i actualy do have to remind myself about that. Otherwise I always somehow forget to include Mafia2 or crossing in my most wanted games list. And Mafia is one of my favorite games of all time and Darkmessiah was my second favorite game of 2006. So it's irrational, but I guess I've been scarred by Xbox generation that deeply.

Still, there's also an upside of it. Dumbed down games sell worse on PC. if you look at current and upcoming pcgames there's a lot of niche genres making a come back. I doubt we would see resurgence of racing sims, puzzle ,adventure, wargames, 4X or simulators if it wasn't for dumbing for of the big franchises making more place for small companies in PCmarket.

AdrianWerner

I thought Bioshock sold really well on the PC though and even better than the 360 version (although I do remember reading that in SW and taking that to be fact... so I could be wrong).

I think for some games, being multiplat doesn't really matter. I mean, Sims 3 was announced to be multiplat on day 1 but it's so casual anyway that it probably won't affect the final product in any major way. I think with so many games being made for consoles/PC, devs are making the games a lot easier, and sticking to what they know works rather than innovate (as what has been complained about in UT3) and I think some genres may suffer from this.

I forgot to mention Oblivion in the OP too, but that's another example.

Casual gaming is killing the market. Before you know it, there will be Madden, GTA, and Halo clones everywhere.

You know why consoles are more popular to the casual audience for gaming?

Plug and play.

You buy the console, you buy the game, and you don't have to fool with it anymore.

360 and PS3 owners look down on the Wii the same way PC gamers look down on the PS3 and 360.

It's funny though, that the simplest system, the Wii, with one SKU, no upgrades, no hard-drive, and a very simple and intuitive interface with simple and intuitive, yet fun games, is VASTLY winning the current system war for the genral consumer.

Difficulty aside, the fun you get from the games, and the reward, believe it or not, is the same.

People don't like to have to research and build a gaming computer. That is not something everyone can do. They don't like "compatibility" issues, patching, instability, bugs, and system requirements for games on the PC. They don't like buying a game only to find out they can't run it. The don't like deciding wheather to upgrade or buy another system or installing games or the heafty price tag that a CPU costs, when there is a potential that it will not run the game you want even if you have bought the right stuff.

They don't like issues with CPU software like Windows and don't understand drivers or what DirectX 10 is, and frankly, they don't care.

They don't like setting in an uncomfortable computer chair with a complex control scheme and user interface, like a keyboard and mouse. They don't like having to set 1-3 feet away from the screen to game.

There are too many variables involved in PC gaming for the casual audience ever to pick the PC as a true competitor for the consoles. For most people it is not even an alternative.

Sure, there are tons of fun PC games out there. However, there are tons of fun games for all the systems. Why would a casual person go through all that extra trouble, time, and money, to hopefully, eventually play games, when they could have that much, or even more fun, from a plug and play gaming system that takes them 30 seconds to hook up?

Thus, the downfall of PC gaming and development, imo.

At least us PC owners still have Blizzard.

it's trying to appeal to a bigger group of people.....Always-Honest

You know why consoles are more popular to the casual audience for gaming?

Plug and play.

You buy the console, you buy the game, and you don't have to fool with it anymore.

Zenfoldor

Indeed, but it doesn't end with hardware, it extends to software. console gamers don't want to read manuals, to think to much while playing, to spend hours learning how to play, they want to sit down, pick up controler and play. To allow that games can't be too complex.

[QUOTE="Always-Honest"]it's trying to appeal to a bigger group of people.....froidnite

to make games these days does indeed cost a lot of money. to be certain they make that money, they will make the gae accessable for a bigger audience. It's safer business wise.

But we must not think this dumbing down is that extreme. some people just exagerate it to look more hardcore.

[QUOTE="Zenfoldor"]

You know why consoles are more popular to the casual audience for gaming?

Plug and play.

You buy the console, you buy the game, and you don't have to fool with it anymore.

AdrianWerner

Indeed, but it doesn't end with hardware, it extends to software. console gamers don't want to read manuals, to think to much while playing, to spend hours learning how to play, they want to sit down, pick up controler and play. To allow that games can't be too complex.

So true.

[QUOTE="froidnite"][QUOTE="Always-Honest"]it's trying to appeal to a bigger group of people.....Always-Honest

to make games these days does indeed cost a lot of money. to be certain they make that money, they will make the gae accessable for a bigger audience. It's safer business wise.

But we must not think this dumbing down is that extreme. some people just exagerate it to look more hardcore.

[QUOTE="Always-Honest"]

[QUOTE="froidnite"][QUOTE="Always-Honest"]it's trying to appeal to a bigger group of people.....froidnite

to make games these days does indeed cost a lot of money. to be certain they make that money, they will make the gae accessable for a bigger audience. It's safer business wise.

But we must not think this dumbing down is that extreme. some people just exagerate it to look more hardcore.

Well, the group they made those games for has changed too. It also has something to do with time. Many gamers that were there from the beginning are now in their thirties and some even forties.

They don't have the time anymore to play games for days and days. They need games that are a little faster to get into but still have that top quality they are used to (bioshock, Rainbow Six Vegas, ad a LOT of other games).

Harder does not alsways mean better by the way.

[QUOTE="froidnite"][QUOTE="Always-Honest"]

[QUOTE="froidnite"][QUOTE="Always-Honest"]it's trying to appeal to a bigger group of people.....Always-Honest

to make games these days does indeed cost a lot of money. to be certain they make that money, they will make the gae accessable for a bigger audience. It's safer business wise.

But we must not think this dumbing down is that extreme. some people just exagerate it to look more hardcore.

Well, the group they made those games for has changed too. It also has something to do with time. Many gamers that were there from the beginning are now in their thirties and some even forties.

They don't have the time anymore to play games for days and days. They need games that are a little faster to get into but still have that top quality they are used to (bioshock, Rainbow Six Vegas, ad a LOT of other games).

Harder does not alsways mean better by the way.

nah...previously those games were designed for adult pcgamers, now they're being targete at teenage console gamers.

Harder does not alsways mean better by the way.

Always-Honest

[QUOTE="Always-Honest"]

Harder does not alsways mean better by the way.

kage_53

With FC2 coming on consoles, I'm now worried that it's not gonna be the FC that I loved playing on PC because of it going multiplat and it's not being developed by Crytek.

However I think the game that's being dumbed down the most is Supreme Commander.

[QUOTE="Always-Honest"]

Harder does not alsways mean better by the way.

kage_53

not true.. really that doesn't have to be true at all... maybe you get more satisfaction when you succeed in a hard game.. but it doesn't have to have more depth.. Ninja Gaiden does not have more depth than many other games. it's hard though... and very satisfying.

Are you hermits mad you lost another PC exclusive? :D

Are you hermits mad you lost another PC exclusive? :D

PS3_3DO

You're a lemming, you should have decency of not speaking a word when other platforms loose exclusives, considering lack of exclusives is something 360 specializes in :D

Not to mention the annoucement of other PC exclusive: Demigod on the same say helped a lot :)

[QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

Are you hermits mad you lost another PC exclusive? :D

AdrianWerner

You're a lemming, you should have decency of not speaking a word when other platforms loose exclusives, considering lack of exclusives is something 360 specializes in :D

Not to mention the annoucement of other PC exclusive: Demigod on the same say helped a lot :)

:lol: Nice

I find games are generally deep enough. A big part of it is because of how far technology has come. If people want their games harder, can't they just turn up the difficulty setting? For example, try beating Halo on Legendary. Now you can't say that's easy or doesn't require a lot of thought and planning.

As far as graphics go, we still see games being made that will push powerful PCs, like Crysis and Alan Wake.

[QUOTE="Zenfoldor"]

You know why consoles are more popular to the casual audience for gaming?

Plug and play.

You buy the console, you buy the game, and you don't have to fool with it anymore.

AdrianWerner

Indeed, but it doesn't end with hardware, it extends to software. console gamers don't want to read manuals, to think to much while playing, to spend hours learning how to play, they want to sit down, pick up controler and play. To allow that games can't be too complex.

I agree with that 100%.

As a PC gamer, I like the compelxicity in the game. I like to learn a game. I enjoy tycoon games because there are tons and tons of elements you have to look at if you want to win. That's why I still play Transport Tycoon, RollerCoaster Tycoon, Capitalism II and enjoy playing Football Manager. Unfortunately, there are no tycoon games anymore.

I like complex and huge RPG games. I liked Arcanum, altough many publications reviewed it like an "average" RPG, and still it was one of the best RPG games I've ever played.

I liked adventure games, but not anymore. There are still some good ones, like The Longest Journey, Syberia and Still Life.

I mean, look what FunCom did with Dreamfall: The Longest Journey, a "socalled" sequel to The Longest Journey. But it's nothing like it. They practically made an action adventure of it.

I'll never forgive LucasArts for completely abandoning, primarily the adventure genre, and secondly the PC platform.

I also like an FPS genre, and the only games I really respect are the pre-Halo ones. Why? I seriously CAN'T stand that retarded auto-healing feature. You're shot, you get behind the cover, and-yay, you're healed. One of the few games that didn't featured auto-healing is Half-Life 2, and because of that it's still, IMO, the best FPS game out there.

I like an RTS genre. I like C&C, StarCraft, WarCraft, Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander etc, and I'm really affraid that the RTS genre is also going to be casualised with some retarded new features, because of this new console love. I'm affraid that in the future we won't see any single PC exclusive RTS game, but only flawed console ports with terrible interfaces, low amount of on-screen units and tutorials that say to us to press the "A" button on your controller to send the unit to the desired position...

It would seem to me that there is more money to be made from console games in general, so that is why there is more focus on console games.

Many PC gamers I know IRL, and many here on this board have admitted to using less savory means of getting PC games, and no one would deny that piracy runs much higher in the PC world than it does in the console world.

I am not saying that all PC gamers do that, nor would I go so far as to say the majority, but many do, and for every person who does, that is a lost sale, and money lost to the developer and publisher. On top of that, there is more moeny in consoles simply due to the higher price point of games.

Publishers and developers will go where the money is, and in the gaming world, there seems to be a shift towards consoles being the cash cow, so this is nothing outside what I figured would happen. And its been a banner year for consoles in terms of games, so I cannot say I am sad, as I have never prefered PC gaming over console gaming.

I hate it too but lets not generalize that all console gamers are lazy bastards who dont want to play games with depth, i dont think that could even count as a majority.

still i dont see it as a big travisty, complexity doesnt always mean quality and simplicity doesnt always mean mediocrity. there is always going to be a place in gaming for crysis and a place for halo. the only true reason that crysis isnt selling amazingly well atm is because its graphics are so good that most people dont have the computers to run the game, not because it hasnt been dumbed down or anything.

If my games look and play this well being "dumbeddown"...Im totally fine with it as they are absolutely fantastic and I could care less for a 3% increase in graphics that pc gamers get. FunkyHeadHunter

Doesnt have anything to do with graphics, if you actually PC Gamed and had a clue you would know what has happened to ALOT of franchises.

there is dumbing down for consoles but i think that blaming consoles or console gamers for this is pointing any anger over it in the wrong direction. frankly PC and console gamers should be furious at companies who dumb down these games. PC gamers because its another great title that has been compromised and console gamers because devs think ure f-ing idiots and are treating u as such. obhiously some concessions do need to be made in the UI to optimise them for the different controller types but that doesent mean that it needs to be dumbed down and theres also no reason why seperate GUIs for the platforms cant be made. but when it comes to ripping out gaming ideas that might be a bit complex because devs think console gamers cant handle it....thats very very frustrating for everyone (DE2 being a prime example of this).

is the industry changing? a bit yes. its not ignoring the PC but there treating it as one of the 3 powerhouse consoles. its basically a case of if ure making a PC game then u may as well make a 360 and PS3 version or vise versa. from a business standpoint, this is arguably needed but, because they think console gamers are, somehow, inferior to PC gamers, the imagination and quality of alot of titles are dropping.

i dont support dumbing down in the slightest...not on any platform. i do understand certain concessions that do need to be made due to the different machines capabilities (ie a PC gui would be crap for a console and vise versa) but ripping out good gameplay ideas because there a little complex should be stopped across the board imho. console gamers arent idiots and PC gamers are not superior to them. were all gamers here. if uve got something a bit complex but still great fun then we want to know. just make sure its explained well in a tutorial or something.

with regards to far cry 2....i hope they dont start changing the origonal plan like so many other games do. i hope they set out to make a great PC game thats also great on consoles....and somethign a bit different from the usual run and gun shooter. hopefully they stick to their guns but they will probably cave and end up with a standard (but good looking) shooter with very few new ideas.

As PC devs move to multiplatfrom production, the spaces are always filled by other developers, like Crytek, who were unknown before Far Cry and they exploit the PC's hardware. Consoles cost a lot of money to produce for, unlike the PC. So there is always more developers on the PC, as a result of there low cost devs take more risks, which spawns innovation. For instance, look at crayon physics. Another example is The Crossing it's a big budget title with Valve's backing, form the makers of Dark Messiah. This exploits the PC's open online system and it probably couldn't be done on consoles. Dumbing down is only a problem if every PC dev does it, or if gaps aren't filled. But that isn't the case.

It's a never ending cycle, so I'm never usually that phased. It's not that I can't enjoy console ports or "dumbed down" games either. But when a game like Dues Ex 2 comes along, or Thief 3 it's annoying.

btw wats all this talk about farcry 2 being dumbed down? it was a fairly run of the mill shooter anyway.

good though, no doubt.

btw wats all this talk about farcry 2 being dumbed down? it was a fairly run of the mill shooter anyway.

good though, no doubt.

Minglis

Run of the Mill? Its 1 mission, 100s of events, and paths ... its nothing like the other Far Crys. ... its 1 open map .. 1 world.

Like STALKER.

[QUOTE="Always-Honest"]

[QUOTE="froidnite"][QUOTE="Always-Honest"]it's trying to appeal to a bigger group of people.....froidnite

to make games these days does indeed cost a lot of money. to be certain they make that money, they will make the gae accessable for a bigger audience. It's safer business wise.

But we must not think this dumbing down is that extreme. some people just exagerate it to look more hardcore.

Mrrowind to Obliovion has got to be the absolute stupidest example. There may indeed be "dumbing down", but it haas NOTHING to do with consoles.... If you will recall morrowind was on xbox.

it's a good thing hermits are a MINORITY themselves eh?crunchUK

In America Land maybe, nowhere else. oh and Japan ... whoa , the 2 coutnries that are heavily influenced by thier own greedy companies marketing ...

its very simple: no one is forceing you to buy the console version of the games

[QUOTE="Minglis"]

btw wats all this talk about farcry 2 being dumbed down? it was a fairly run of the mill shooter anyway.

good though, no doubt.

Meu2k7

Run of the Mill? Its 1 mission, 100s of events, and paths ... its nothing like the other Far Crys. ... its 1 open map .. 1 world.

Like STALKER.

ahhh farcry 1? no.

its very simple: no one is forceing you to buy the console version of the games

Mad_Rhetoric

-_- it has nothing to do with which version is better, dont you understand? *** The Design philosphy is changed in the early stages ***

Look at UT3, they said there would be more vehicles involved, and jumping would be toned down 2 years before it came out pretty much ...

LOW AND BEHOLD ... PC Version = Feels like a console game. OH SNAP.

its very simple: no one is forceing you to buy the console version of the games

Mad_Rhetoric

the pointthey are making isthat the pc versions are suffering as a result to cater for console goers.