Extra Credits: RPGs are more than just their surface mechanics

I think the Mass Effect series is indeed an RPG series, and a damn good one too.

I could really not give two sh!ts about somebody saying "NOT AN RPG LOLOOLOL GEARS OF DUTY MODERN WARFARE EFFECT".

Only thing that matters to me is what I think it is, and how much fun I have with it. Which is a lot.

I don't get why either side cares. Calling ME3 a shooter doesn't make it any less of a game, and RPG has never been a well defined genre in the gaming world (or if it was, you're about 25 years late to the party).

[QUOTE="Kickinurass"]According the creators, the press, and probably most consumers, Mass Effect 3 is an RPG.Zeviander

Perhaps not, but the words of developers, journalists, publishers and other industry insiders goes alot further than random forum-goers. It's a simple matter of speaking from experience.

The larger industry decided that Mass Effect are RPG's. Most people don't care to contest the fact - what we have is an incredible vocal minority that think otherwise.

Perhaps not, but the words of developers, journalists, publishers and other industry insiders goes alot further than random forum-goers. It's a simple matter of speaking from experience. The larger industry decided that Mass Effect are RPG's. Most people don't care to contest the fact - what we have is an incredible vocal minority that think otherwise.Kickinurass

[QUOTE="Kickinurass"]Perhaps not, but the words of developers, journalists, publishers and other industry insiders goes alot further than random forum-goers. It's a simple matter of speaking from experience. The larger industry decided that Mass Effect are RPG's. Most people don't care to contest the fact - what we have is an incredible vocal minority that think otherwise.Zeviander

Versus the open denial of the new industry-wide definition of what constitutes an RPG?

Regardless of what people think, the term RPG has broadened since its inception. You're right, it is an argument from popularity, but on the other hand the alternative is a outdated perspective stuck in the early 90's. I'll go with what I see to be the lesser of the two evils here.

Edit: GS is being so glitchy:x I'm going to bed.

The reason I and a lot of others consider ME to not be an RPG is because the emphasis on those games is not on the roleplaying, but the actual shooting. Giving you dialogue "options" and stats and levelling doesnt change this. If you have stats they should be meaningful. Something I wouldn't say ME's stats are.

Just because ME isnt an RPG doesnt detract from its quality, in fact, I would argue that the best thing the series did was to drop the pretense of being one.

I feel these heated debates concerning which genre a game belongs to are ridiculous. What does it really matter?

Many games now aren't made to stay strictly in the confines of one genre, so why try to label it?

[QUOTE="Kickinurass"]Perhaps not, but the words of developers, journalists, publishers and other industry insiders goes alot further than random forum-goers. It's a simple matter of speaking from experience. The larger industry decided that Mass Effect are RPG's. Most people don't care to contest the fact - what we have is an incredible vocal minority that think otherwise.Zeviander

Wouldn't that be a legitimate appeal to authority?

They have expertise on the subject, and there's a general agreement among them. It's been quite some time since I've taken a college course with fallacies, but I remember appealing to authority isn't always fallacious.

Fallacies tiring. College kids love to spout them though...

According the creators, the press, and probably most consumers, Mass Effect 3 is an RPG.Kickinurass

e.g.

"I never consider myself an RPG developer, and I don't really worry about traditional genre conventions other than our own goals for making a great game" Hudson states.

"Typically our goals - creating interactive story, compelling progression, intense combat, and exploration - result in games that are classified as RPGs, - he told NowGamer, "but my intention is always to make the best possible story-driven games, and for me and my team, the next great design that we're excited about is what we're doing with ME3."

sauce: http://beefjack.com/news/mass-effect-3s-casey-hudson-not-an-rpg-designer/

or

"RPGs are and always have been our bread and butter, our heart is there, but at the same time I think - well, we had the RPG panel breakfast at GDC yesterday - and what was interesting about that was that we had the conversation about 'what is an RPG,' and it's a blend," he told VG247. "The genres are blending right now, you're getting lots and lots of progression and RPG elements in shooters - online persistence and so on."

"It's funny because the RPG in the context of the current world is - well, it's not specifically irrelevant, but it's becoming less relevant in and of itself," he continued. "It's more a function of, 'Hey, this game has a great story.' For us, [it's] having that emotion but also having other great features like combat and persistence of character progression and stuff."

sauce: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/112502-BioWare-Co-Founder-RPGs-Are-Becoming-Less-Relevant

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="Kickinurass"]Perhaps not, but the words of developers, journalists, publishers and other industry insiders goes alot further than random forum-goers. It's a simple matter of speaking from experience. The larger industry decided that Mass Effect are RPG's. Most people don't care to contest the fact - what we have is an incredible vocal minority that think otherwise.Ross_the_Boss6

Wouldn't that be a legitimate appeal to authority?

They have expertise on the subject, and there's a general agreement among them. It's been quite some time since I've taken a college course with fallacies, but I remember appealing to authority isn't always fallacious.

Fallacies tiring. College kids love to spout them though...

Adobe, the answer is in the title thread: they are more than just their surface mechanics. They are not apart from their surface mechanics ;).FrozenLiquid

This is what i was gonna say aswell, more or less.

And anyway, it doesn't really matter anymore. The traditional video-game RPG genre which was created as various representations of the pen 'n paper Dungeon & Dragons has ben diluted over the course of years in countless sub-genres, and some of the major definining aspects have ben either stripped out, or put in other video game genres.

A argument over what makes a game a RPG is just going to go in circles. I think we each have our own definition these days.

So does that mean GTA4 is a driving sim because you drive around the city? Portal is an FPS because you shoot (albiet an unconventional and non-lethal) weapon from a first person persepctive? COD is an RPG because you have a class system? Batman Arkham is a fighter with it's melee combat?

These and other examples illustrate how surface mechanics are only a small part of the equation, and the greater importance of examining what the true driving force of the gameplay experience is beneath the what we outwardly see in the game.

When I pick up say, Witcher 2 or DMC, both have real time sword combat, but I'm not expecting to get the same experience from each game. With DMC, I want to threash my way through relentless hordes of enemies, and story pretty much takes a back seat. With Witcher 2 (or even Dragon Age for that matter) I want to mold my character and interactively engage in the unfolding story. In those games combat is more the means to overcome the obstacles and challenges so the plot can progress.

The experiences of the game are more fundamentally defining of any genre, than are its surface mechanics. espcially given that mechanics can be chared across different genres.AdobeArtist

Versus the open denial of the new industry-wide definition of what constitutes an RPG?

Kickinurass

Mass Effect isn't an RPG guise

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]Adobe, the answer is in the title thread: they are more than just their surface mechanics. They are not apart from their surface mechanics ;). I'm literally playing Mass Effect 3 as I type this. No, it's not a RPG. It's a damn good game though!AdobeArtist

Now in this case Mass Effect has been erroneously compared to Gears of War. Can you honestly say you go into those games for the same reasons, and that they engage you in the exact same gameplay experience?

They have expertise on the subject, and there's a general agreement among them.Ross_the_Boss6

College kids love to spout them though...Ross_the_Boss6

I feel these heated debates concerning which genre a game belongs to are ridiculous. (1.) What does it really matter?

(2.) Many games now aren't made to stay strictly in the confines of one genre, so why try to label it?Ross_the_Boss6

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]Adobe, the answer is in the title thread: they are more than just their surface mechanics. They are not apart from their surface mechanics ;).Lucianu

This is what i was gonna say aswell, more or less.

And anyway, it doesn't really matter anymore. The traditional video-game RPG genre which was created as various representations of the pen 'n paper Dungeon & Dragons has ben diluted over the course of years in countless sub-genres, and some of the major definining aspects have ben either stripped out, or put in other video game genres.

A argument over what makes a game a RPG is just going to go in circles. I think we each have our own definition these days.

That's the problem. It's a desire for legitimacy, but it forgoes knowledge and understanding.

i don't mind acknowledging subgenres of RPG. The Action RPG is a perfectly legitimate subgenre, and Diablo 1 & 2 were perfect role models. Hell, no one mistakes Vampires: The Masquerade -- Bloodlines for an action game, and a fair part of its unofficial patching turns the game into a more reasonable action title. I also think the original Mass Effect was an ARPG as well, but it was really effing weak at it.

[QUOTE="AdobeArtist"]

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]Adobe, the answer is in the title thread: they are more than just their surface mechanics. They are not apart from their surface mechanics ;). I'm literally playing Mass Effect 3 as I type this. No, it's not a RPG. It's a damn good game though!FrozenLiquid

Now in this case Mass Effect has been erroneously compared to Gears of War. Can you honestly say you go into those games for the same reasons, and that they engage you in the exact same gameplay experience?

*rubs temples*

yeah, and here I was accused of "strawman arguments"? Yeah, sure, just one incident by itself shares similarity to Gears of other TPS. But when I asked if ME3 and Gears 3 engaged the player in the same gameplay experience, (and I honestly didn't think this needed to be elaborated on) I meant the complete total gameplay experience.

But hey let's do it your way. Let's compare a segment in Gears where I actively enagaged in some interaction with my crew. Or how I custom built my Gears soldier with unique abilities? Went on a few investigation quests that didn't involve shooting? Oh wait... none of that is in Gears. Who'd a thunk it? I mean this is like looking at Dragon Age 2 and Ninja Gaiden and going, "well, you have two guys hacking with a sword, yep that's the exact style of game".

This, this is the kind of example that Extra Cedits means when they say people looking only at the surface mechanics and not the underlying core experience of the game. Oh and I also wanted to respond to your original post Frozen, I had said before that the common surface mechanics (stats, level, class) does have it's part in the RPG genre, but they aren't the sole defining traits either. As Extra credits illustrates, relying soley on surface mechanics is insufficient and can be misleading.

But enough of Mass Effect RPG or not. I brought up their videos to examine the whole RPG genre of what really distinguishes them other than region. So this encompasses Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, Witcher, Baldur's Gate, Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Persona, or what ever other examples you like. It especially comes into light when you see the Japanese more and more taking queues from the west with games like Dark Souls. While it is made in Japan, to call it a JRPG would be misleading as to what type of experience it creates for the player.

We definitely need a better definition of RPG types other than region, and I'd like to once again throw out my proposal;

Scripted RPG: what we called JRPG, describing the game with a scripted character (predetrmined appearance and outlook) and mostly linear story.

Dynamic RPG: what we called WRPG, describing game type with character that is personalized by player, imbued with qualities of his/her choosing, more open ended story and freedom of interaction.