Fallout 4, and the streamlining of the RPG elements

Fallout 4 is out, and it's great, for what it does, it's actually not a bad game at all. But I'm playing it, and I am starting to wonder just how much of an RPG it really is at this point. We used to all hate on Mass Effect 2 for its streamlining of RPG elements, but I would argue that Fallout 4 is en route to stripping itself down even more.

Especially compare Fallout 4 to Skyrim, which is, I suppose, its immediate predecessor.

You picked a species, picked a specialization (which could be changed), and you leveled up using Experience points. But you also had sub levels in various categories (Heavy Armor, Light Armor, Heavy Weapon, Light Weapon, Lockpicking, Magic, Charisma, and so on), and the more you used these, the higher your sublevels in those were- meaning your character build would reflect your playstyle entirely. Finally, each time your character level went up, you got a point to spend on perks in each of these categories.

This was a good balance between trying to be accessible, but still retaining at least some depth. It allowed for specialized or general builds, it allowed for flexibility, and it was powerful. Fallout 4 throws all of this away- you have your SPECIAL, and you have your character level, but your leveling is tied exclusively to your perks. So you level up, get a point, and spend it either on a SPECIAL, or on a SPECIAL perk, and... that's it.

That's just the leveling- in most other ways, Fallout 4 has stripped away its RPG elements. Conversations and choices are now trivialized, thanks to the new dialog system, which offers only four choices to begin with, and often times has two or more of those choices effectively be the same (thanks to some poor writing). Any RPG trappings in the combat have been de-emphasized to such an extent that you could mistake the game for a first person shooter (the game never even introduces VATS, or explains it- you figure out it is mapped to R1/RB yourself, or have fun with the shooting). The quests themselves are fairly weak, and lack the nuance of earlier Fallout games like 1, 2, New Vegas, or even 3's Megaton quest. Systems in the older games like Karma are gone.

It's just... very streamlined. It seems to have done away and dispensed with most of the RPG mechanics. I appreciate Fallout 4 for what it is, which is a very fun sandbox, but I do have to wonder why Bethesda decided it was necessary to streamline even more after Skyrim, which struck a great balance, and managed to sell over 20 million units worldwide anyway- why not just stick to that system, and maybe build on it, iterate on it, improve whatever it did not do well? Why this regression?

My question to you all, then- regardless of your personal thoughts on, and enjoyment of Fallout 4, do you think it even qualifies as an RPG at this point?

Bethesda wasn't all that great at the RPG part, anyways. At least with Fallout 4, they've trimmed the fat.

Less QQ

Skyrim's system has skills in it that are completely useless, so a streamlining would be a good thing.

Not all games need RPG elements anyway.

Nice. RPGs don't need to have RPG elements now. Wow.

RPG is a pretty broad genre, with many sub-genres.

You can have a shooter, but if it has dialogue choices, I'd consider that an RPG.

You can have an adventure game, but if it has stat-building, I'd consider that an RPG.

I think the problem with people believing an RPG is not "RPG enough" is from the notion that it needs to be more like a pen and paper RPG, with dice rolls, incredibly in-depth character building, and dialogue choices that would encompass all of the alignment spectrum (chaotic neutral, lawful good, etc). Compounding this belief is the fact that Fallout used to be exactly that, and long-time fans would like to see a lot of that return.

It has all the elements that it needs from RPG, over-killing and overusing RPG elements will make it worse. The devs knew what they were doing, and they did well in that aspect.

That wouldn't be a RPG, in any context.

I think the changes they have made are perfect for the Fallout universe... maybe the quests and story could use more work but I'm enjoying them all the same too. I guess I always liked fallout more for exploration than for being a good RPG so none of these changes are really effecting what I was always getting from Fallout.

The game play is so much better, I rarely use VATS anymore and when I do that also is a fun system.

I like that I can now level up my SPECIAL stats when I lvl and I don't see how perks is dumbing anything down. There was always perks and then there was number dumping too... now the perks are just more powerful you don't need the number dump. I never had an issue with number dumping personally but I don't think this system is worse at all.

I do think they should not carry these changes to any future Elder Scrolls games, different franchises can have different mechanics. I very much prefer a voiced propagandist in any game however. Mass Effect managed to do this with enough variation and I think Fallout or any of Bethesda's future games would benefit from a similar system.

i just hope obsidian does a fallout 4:New Vegas like fallout 3, because they actually know how to make RPGs

...........

@speedfreak48t5p: RPGs need RPG elements in them... Which is what Fallout 4 is a RPG.

Meh, there are plenty of old school rpg on pc nowdays anyway be it cprg or jrpg

Streamlining would be removing the skills that were useless, not removing the RPG elements entirely, which is what this game does. Fallout 4's solution is like setting a house on fire because it had spiders.

No, but you know what does need RPG elements? An RPG.

There is literally no definition of the genre where this would fit. A shooter with dialog choices is an RPG? What's next, was Black Ops 2 an RPG?

Okay, and... what does this have to do in context of Fallout 4?

If it's an rpg, yes it does.

I'd gladly take as much rpg elements as possible but as is, Fallout 4 is an awesome game.

He's a console gamer.

Rpg lovers on pc have plenty alternative than worrying about fallout 4

I really just don't see FPS and RPG as genres that mix well. A Fallout game that uses STALKER as a model would be much better.

I agree completely. I'm having a good amount of fun in Fallout 4 definitely, but it really doesn't feel much more like an RPG at this point than franchises like Borderlands, or Dead Island. I can only hope the next iteration of Elder Scrolls doesn't go down a similar path.

Yeah maybe they should turn CoD into a platform game coz u know, we have shooters everywhere.

I suppose it is, tho I haven't play it yet but I've seen reviews and playthroughs.

But it makes for a bad RPG, which is at its core, what it should be. I would even wager that if they actually enhanced and improve on the RPG foundations that worked, it would be an even better and much more involving game. They have the resources and manpower to do it but won't. Cause they know modders would do it for them and they might actually charge you for it. (looking at Steam pay for mods program).

As I've said before, streamlining of RPG elements isn't necessarily always a bad thing- Mass Effect 2 and 3 being perfect examples of this. The question is, are you annoyed by the streamlining in Fallout 4 because it takes away from the experience, or because it does something you just did not expect Bethesda games to do? Because maybe you're just annoyed Bethesda revamped a feature you liked a lot in their previous games and maybe you're just too annoyed to see that maybe it actually works well here.

I haven't played nearly enough of Fallout 4 yet, Witcher 3 has been eating up most of my time, so I'm actually asking here, I don't know if the streamlining has changed the experience for better or for worse.

Ugh... Fallout is dead guys.

Play some Age of Decadence, UnderRail (should be finished soon) and Wasteland 2 DC if you want to play some actual post-apoc RPGs.

Didn't uninspiredcup make a thread about essentially the same thing a couple of days ago?

Press video when making a post.

It's changed the experience for the worse, you are far more limited in what you can do in the game now.

I hope Elder Scrolls VI follows from Skyrim rather than Fallout 4, honestly.

Wasteland 2 isn't any better, either.

I just found the thread where he apparently said this.

He didn't say anything, he just posted a Todd Howard picture.

Oh my...

What a load of confusing replies you had to reply to.

What could they possibly mean ?

All of the recent Fallout hype got me playing the old games. Never played the first one and it's been years since I played the second one. Having a good time with Fallout 1 right now though. It manages to pull off a good atmosphere for such a dated game.

System Shock 2 has more RPG elements than Fallout 4 and yet people used to consider it an FPS back in the day. Its really funny how much the definition of RPG has degraded over time.

I think it has just enough RPG elements in the game if it went any deeper I don't think I would like it.

meh, im not a fan of the new leveling system but im still enjoying the hell out of the game. eventually once i stop caring about leveling up ill just give myself all the perks lol.

i preferred skyrim's leveling up system, never really cared for just dumping points into a stat.

I spent $60 on this thing on faith, I'll complain about it all I like if I am dissatisfied.

@sts106mat: But you are assuming I hate the game enough to stop playing it entirely. I enjoy the game enough to continue playing it, but it does some very important things poorly enough to be frustrating overall.

You're on a gaming forum, the idea here is to discuss games. That is what this thread is doing, and it's not just blindly hating or unnecessary negativity, it's a thread that backs up any points it is making with articulated reasons and evidence inasmuch as evidence is possible. That's not negativity, that's discussion. Negativity is calling someone out on negativity that never existed or was never intended to begin with.

Fallout 4 does that as well, it does not have as much versaility of roles. But I would argue that the roles themselves feel more versalite. In Skyrim you were melee, and that was pretty much it. Heavy and Light armor were near identical. And 1 and 2h weapons had the same playstyle. In Fallout 4, you could go for a sneaky melee build, a bruiser, a glass cannon melee build, simply due to the perk system.

Not saying the character system is good... but still. Skyrim was still really bad.

Oh and the character system in Wasteland 2 was pretty good. Especially with how it was factored into gameplay.

Oh and the raise by use system has serious issues, beginning with the grindy nature of it. Sitting in town spamming conjuration spells to raise a skill is a sign of shitty game design. If you want a system like that, time has to be a resource. This is why the system worked in games like Jagged Alliance and Rune Factory.

That's just the leveling- in most other ways, Fallout 4 has stripped away its RPG elements. Conversations and choices are now trivialized, thanks to the new dialog system, which offers only four choices to begin with, and often times has two or more of those choices effectively be the same (thanks to some poor writing). Any RPG trappings in the combat have been de-emphasized to such an extent that you could mistake the game for a first person shooter (the game never even introduces VATS, or explains it- you figure out it is mapped to R1/RB yourself, or have fun with the shooting). The quests themselves are fairly weak, and lack the nuance of earlier Fallout games like 1, 2, New Vegas, or even 3's Megaton quest. Systems in the older games like Karma are gone.

Dialogue Wheels in a nutshell.

RPGs that have been using the dialogue wheel have never had complex dialogue. Complexity nad dialogue wheels dont mesh well, part due to the paraphrased dialogue options, the other part due to the voiced protagonist. Which is a detriment to player agency. Chris Avellone wrote about it a hwile back, and I remember some other writing similar complaints about the dialogue wheel system.

Another problem with the dialogue wheel is that it makes dialogue a lot less personal. Instead of talking to the character himself, it feels like you are telling keywords to some translator, letting the translator talk to the NPC instead of you.

There is a reason the dialogue wheel has been very poorly recieved by cRPG fans

.My question to you all, then- regardless of your personal thoughts on, and enjoyment of Fallout 4, do you think it even qualifies as an RPG at this point?

Its about as much of an RPG as Skyrim. I prefer to call it an action adventure. Its not the least RPGish, as an RPG, it is pretty piss poor. Maybe this is for the better anyways, RPG has never been bethesda's strong point. They would do better stripping out the remaining RPG elements, and then design something more akin to STALKER.

The attributes were really poorly done in the last 2 games as well. Attributes work best as descriptors. When Strength just affects a few numbers and that is it. Strength doesnt really feel like strength and so on.

• Strength: It would take a decent ammount of strength to wield any 2h weapon, those with exceptoinal can one hand a few weapons such as long swords.
• Perception: It would take at least 8 perception to realize that Chie Satonaka is in fact... a woman.
• Endurance: Characters with crippingly poor endurance might not even be able to take vaccinations. This would make it especially dangerous for these people to live near areas where the anti vaccination movement is strong.
• Charisma: High charisma could unlock plenty of new opportunitites. Form a cult, dominate people psychologically and so on. Poor charisma, will make people averse of you, and people have a very negative disposition of you before even meeting you
• Intelligence: Fallout 1 and 2 already nailed it. Fallout New Vegas did a decent job as well. High intelligence would give access to far more dialogue options, characters with very poor would speak in grunts. The NPC reactions were amusing as well.
• Agility: More than just dodging enemies or getting more attacks in. High agility should allow you to access paths otherwise unavailable. Get on rooftops, and possibly parkeour through them.
• Luck: Fallout New Vegas let high luck characters successfully guess passwords.

I wasn't talking about RPG's though.

Wrestling rules **** you

I actually agree with this, I'd rather a game focused on exploration if Bethesda insist on using the same shitty writers and character animations.

If Bethesda turned Fallout into a Stalker-type series where the emphasis was clearly on shooting/exploration/gearing up, i'd be fine with this.

That's not what he said.

Char, play games and have fun. Seriously that's whats wrong with gamers now and days cause all they do is ***** and complain, hell they'll even complain about a game w/o even playing it!.

If you constantly bring out the flaws in a game then why even bother playing video games?, that would be miserable cause as the saying goes "there's no such thing as a perfect game" and you would spend more time qqing about a game than playing it. I don't know about you but I don't have time to ****** and whine constantly on the internet cause I work 40 hours a week and I have better shit to do then pretend to criticize games constantly.

Cause lets face it if we both compared our top 50 games together we could easily scrutinize each others choices of games, wondering how that game that person picked for number 15 with all it's bugs or w/e issue you or I might think of to qq about, but you know what I don't care if RE6 was your fav game. The same thing can be said for missing elements like RPG elements, which honestly I like how they are done in Fallout 4.

-Dialogue system makes you think on what you're gonna say before you can even react, by that I mean for example if you choose "Tell me where shaun is" answer, and the character replies with "where is my son *** hole, I'll rip you a new one if you don't tell me" it kinda makes me think my character is a bamf that takes no shit. Or another example is choosing sarcastic and all of a sudden my character says ether something whitty and I'm like daaamn or I can say something really stupid.

-While fallout 4 streamlines a lot of rpg elements it's honestly for the better (I know the rage of all the rpg hardcore plebs out there are gonna explode reading this), I for one am sick and tired of all the useless stats in rpgs and so far fallout 4 has trimmed the fat a little. As for heavy armor ect ect specializations, fallout 4 still has it, it's just not as night and day or explained clearly. You're not gonna be a pro stealthy/assassin build character if you're wearing heavy armor.

-The thing I never see people mention when they want to criticize fallout 4 is the sanctuary building system, a system so awesome people just mind fart it like it's not even in the game. Home building was a pretty popular mod in Skyrim and they brought that over to fallout 4 and the insane stuff people are building is nuts.

/end rant

More and more the goalposts seem to be moved based on what elements constitute as an "RPG".

I can't comment on Fallout 4's depth in this area as I've yet to play it, but I find that some games can be more enjoyable if it's not with the intent of its classified genre. For example, Skyrim is technically an RPG, but I found it much more enjoyable when I tackled it on as an action-adventure because it felt more along the lines of that.

What makes Fallout 4's situation tricky is that Bethesda decided to strip away what was already a very deep foundation which was established with the Black Isle games. It's like they purposefully crippled the potential, at least they did with FO3.

It certainly has as much in common with Borderlands as it does the original Fallouts. I suppose the main point of attraction is the crafting of settlements, which is unfortunately hamstrung by a clunky as **** interface.

Ugh, all the 'hardcore rpg plebs' as you put it, are saying Beth should have ditched their bullshit RPG elements (going back to Oblivion) and went in more of an action/adventure style, instead of this awkward 'middle ground' they seem to find themselves in.

That would be a gross misunderstanding of what a RPG game is though otherwise every game would be a RPG.