Games Too Hard, Too Big?

I read this article. And basically it's saying that games are too hard, and too big for us older gamers probably in their mid twenties and up since we don't have a lot of time to play anymore. I'm 25, and only with a part time job. So, I got plenty of time to play games until I get another job. And the thing I like about lengthy and challenging games is I feel you get more bang for your buck. Ya, Mr. Davison says people are greedy, but we should be getting what we paid for. If games are going to be shorten than I want a price cut.

Ugh... Games are far too easy. I dunno where this logic is coming from. If games got dumbed down any further you could just tap one button to beat them.

If anything games need to be much more naturally difficult. Enough of this, harder difficulty = cheating AI.

I noticed the opposite this generation with most "big" titles. So I would be inclined to disagree with the article. The obsession with "HD" graphics (ironically a fair amount of games are not rendered in true HD resolutions) is costing the developers a large stack of cash that could be otherwise spent on more content.

This might have been more evident at the start of the generation, as the technology is more affordable nowadays, but developing at such a fidelity still seems to takes many many years and cost astronomical amounts of money. It isn't greed to want longer games; it is just expecting what we were used to from previous generations.

I can't really complain about prices as I play games mainly on my PC, so new titles are roughly £20-25. But if I were to own a console (looking at getting a PS3 in the near future), a price cut would be really welcomed considering that i'd be paying anywhere between £35-50 for LESS content.

{insert hatred for Kotick here}

Not at all. I want to get as much content for my money as possible and I always appreciate a good challenge, short of being purely cheap of course. However, as long as I find a game fun, I really do not care if it is difficult and 100 hours long or not. Not every game needs to be a time sink with the difficulty of Ninja Gaiden Black in order to be considered a good game. Although, I do love those sorts of games.

eh, i think it'd be a lot easier for people to just play fewer games than to try and make every game easier and shorter

if you play a 100 hour rpg 2 hours a day that's 50 days worth of entertainment or $1 a day

that's a pretty good value, making it stretch out actually increases the value you get out of a game

No I want the games to be harder then they already are and I want most of them to have atleast 20 hours of gameplay on the first playthrough.

I really don't think so.

There are so many games that you can play for 5-10min at a time. Play those if you don't have time for long games.

I think people who complain about long or difficult games are only doing so because they want to play a lot of games in a small amount of time. That has never worked and never will work.

The only legit thing to actually complain about is that there are too many good games getting released which honestly is a stupid thing to complain about.

Games these days are generally very easy, at least when compared to the ones from the old days. They are longer, though, so people who don't really have time for games will be less likely to beat them.

The sandbox thing is annoying me a bit, though. GTA seems to be one of the few games to pull it off correctly. Stuff like Just Cause and Saints Row is just wannabe.

It seems to me games are actually shorter and easier than previous gens., possibly due to high development costs. Anyways, whats the avg. game length these days? 6-8 hours? Have they always been that short? Perhaps they just seem shorter cause they're easier to beat now....*shrug*Zakeris

I remember playing some games in the past like Streets of Rage 2. That game could be beaten in one sitting. I think it's about the same as it was in the past. It's just shorter games (6-8 hour games) are kind of the norm. Hardcore gamers don't make up a huge chunk of the percentage when it comes to gamers. A lot of people rather be doing some other things than just play video games all day.

Uh guys, its not talking about difficulty difficulty but, the amount of content, and the learning curves, which i can totally agree on.

Believe it or not games nowadays are far more complex than those in the past, which you can just pick up and play.

Not hard and big enough ;)siLVURcross

[QUOTE="siLVURcross"]Not hard and big enough ;)nintendog66

I loled.

Uh guys, its not talking about difficulty difficulty but, the amount of content, and the learning curves, which i can totally agree on.

Believe it or not games nowadays are far more complex than those in the past, which you can just pick up and play.

Zerocrossings

No. Todays games are more intuitive and easy to pick up and play. That is what is boosting the sales atm. Look at CoD4:MW2. Stuff like shield HP in FPS games make them easier than the old games, which where shorter and depended on you dying alot in order to increase playtime.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Uh guys, its not talking about difficulty difficulty but, the amount of content, and the learning curves, which i can totally agree on.

Believe it or not games nowadays are far more complex than those in the past, which you can just pick up and play.

kontejner44

No. Todays games are more intuitive and easy to pick up and play. That is what is boosting the sales atm. Look at CoD4:MW2. Stuff like shield HP in FPS games make them easier than the old games, which where shorter and depended on you dying alot in order to increase playtime.

Uh, no. Give MW2 to a 5 year old and he probably cant even figure out the controls. Give him super mario bros/Sonic the hedgehogand he could probably play.

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Uh guys, its not talking about difficulty difficulty but, the amount of content, and the learning curves, which i can totally agree on.

Believe it or not games nowadays are far more complex than those in the past, which you can just pick up and play.

Zerocrossings

No. Todays games are more intuitive and easy to pick up and play. That is what is boosting the sales atm. Look at CoD4:MW2. Stuff like shield HP in FPS games make them easier than the old games, which where shorter and depended on you dying alot in order to increase playtime.

Uh, no. Give MW2 to a 5 year old and he probably cant even figure out the controls. Give him super mario bros/Sonic the hedgehogand he could probably play.

You are comparing 2D platforming with a 3D game. What you are saying is true, NSMBW sold over 14 mill already, SMG sold 8 mill. But if you compare NSMBW with SMB on NES you will see that NSMBW is far more simple to pick up and play.

Uh, no. Give MW2 to a 5 year old and he probably cant even figure out the controls. Give him super mario bros/Sonic the hedgehogand he could probably play.

Zerocrossings

Sure, for a 5 year old MW2 is probably really hard to figure out. He isn't in the advertised market though the game is M rated.

Luckily there is about a billion of those Sonic and Mario games that he can easiliy play this generation.

_

I think you are underastimating what kids are actually capable of. I had no problem with playing games like Quake, Heroes of Might and Magic 3 or Half Life, when I was around 10 years old.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

No. Todays games are more intuitive and easy to pick up and play. That is what is boosting the sales atm. Look at CoD4:MW2. Stuff like shield HP in FPS games make them easier than the old games, which where shorter and depended on you dying alot in order to increase playtime.

kontejner44

Uh, no. Give MW2 to a 5 year old and he probably cant even figure out the controls. Give him super mario bros/Sonic the hedgehogand he could probably play.

You are comparing 2D platforming with a 3D game. What you are saying is true, NSMBW sold over 14 mill already, SMG sold 8 mill. But if you compare NSMBW with SMB on NES you will see that NSMBW is far more simple to pick up and play.

Im comparing new games to old games, just like what this thread is about. NSMBW is simple becaue its based off an old game, like 3D dot heroes. And its debatable whether its simpler. And why NSMBW? Why not compare itto Mass Effect and Dragon Age? The article is obviously referring to these kind of games.

And I dont know what you are trying to say with the sales figures.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Uh, no. Give MW2 to a 5 year old and he probably cant even figure out the controls. Give him super mario bros/Sonic the hedgehogand he could probably play.

JLF1

Sure, for a 5 year old MW2 is probably really hard to figure out. He isn't in the advertised market though the game is M rated.

Luckily there is about a billion of those Sonic and Mario games that he can easiliy play this generation.

_

I think you are underastimating what kids are actually capable of. I had no problem with playing games like Quake, Heroes of Might and Magic 3 or Half Life, when I was around 10 years old.

Again, the article is referring to the huge/complex games that only exist today. There were barely any games as complexand long in the SNES/Genesis era.

And you missed my point. I dont care what age a kid gets smart enough to play games, he will have more difficulty getting used to MW2 controls than Mario's.

[QUOTE="Zakeris"]It seems to me games are actually shorter and easier than previous gens., possibly due to high development costs. Anyways, whats the avg. game length these days? 6-8 hours? Have they always been that short? Perhaps they just seem shorter cause they're easier to beat now....*shrug*majadamus

I remember playing some games in the past like Streets of Rage 2. That game could be beaten in one sitting. I think it's about the same as it was in the past. It's just shorter games (6-8 hour games) are kind of the norm. Hardcore gamers don't make up a huge chunk of the percentage when it comes to gamers. A lot of people rather be doing some other things than just play video games all day.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

No. Todays games are more intuitive and easy to pick up and play. That is what is boosting the sales atm. Look at CoD4:MW2. Stuff like shield HP in FPS games make them easier than the old games, which where shorter and depended on you dying alot in order to increase playtime.

kontejner44

Uh, no. Give MW2 to a 5 year old and he probably cant even figure out the controls. Give him super mario bros/Sonic the hedgehogand he could probably play.

You are comparing 2D platforming with a 3D game. What you are saying is true, NSMBW sold over 14 mill already, SMG sold 8 mill. But if you compare NSMBW with SMB on NES you will see that NSMBW is far more simple to pick up and play.

Lets make something clear here. We are comparing OLD games with NEW games. The most logical comparison would be SMB on NES vs NSMBW on Wii. Screw Dragon age and all that because those are complex GENRES not games.

People compare the controls being simple, well it makes sense, NES controler looks and is more simple. With that said, I was refering to gameplay mechanics. The majority of people get bored out of Trial and Error gameplay, it's a huge turn off.

Again, the article is referring to the huge/complex games that only exist today. There were barely any games as complexand long in the SNES/Genesis era.

And you missed my point. I dont care what age a kid gets smart enough to play games, he will have more difficulty getting used to MW2 controls than Mario's.

Zerocrossings

Actually there were games like that but they were on the PC. Which a lot of kids played games on back then.

Now for a serious question to you. Who cares if some games are too complex for a 5 year old to understand? Should every game be dumbed down so that anyone can play them? Yes MW2 is more complicated than NSMBW but what it wrong with that?

You are acting like every game this generation if overly complicated. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are much more quality games this generation that are easiler to understand and finish than there were in the NES or SNES era.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Again, the article is referring to the huge/complex games that only exist today. There were barely any games as complexand long in the SNES/Genesis era.

And you missed my point. I dont care what age a kid gets smart enough to play games, he will have more difficulty getting used to MW2 controls than Mario's.

JLF1

Actually there were games like that but they were on the PC. Which a lot of kids played games on back then.

Now for a serious question to you. Who cares if some games are too complex for a 5 year old to understand? Should every game be dumbed down so that anyone can play them? Yes MW2 is more complicated than NSMBW but what it wrong with that?

You are acting like every game this generation if overly complicated. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are much more quality games that generation that are easiler to understand and finish than there were in the NES or SNES era.

Huh? Where did i say that? Im just saying they are more complex than old ones, which is true. And its also true that they take up alotmore time.

Are you guys seriously denying that games in general got more complex and largerover the years? :roll:

No games are too easy. They are being casualized. I think that if I would pick a game where it would be the most complicated for the average gamer to understand, i'd pick Monster Hunter. One of the most complicated games out there for someone to pick up. Or atleast that's what my friends excuses are.

[QUOTE="JLF1"]

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Again, the article is referring to the huge/complex games that only exist today. There were barely any games as complexand long in the SNES/Genesis era.

And you missed my point. I dont care what age a kid gets smart enough to play games, he will have more difficulty getting used to MW2 controls than Mario's.

Zerocrossings

Actually there were games like that but they were on the PC. Which a lot of kids played games on back then.

Now for a serious question to you. Who cares if some games are too complex for a 5 year old to understand? Should every game be dumbed down so that anyone can play them? Yes MW2 is more complicated than NSMBW but what it wrong with that?

You are acting like every game this generation if overly complicated. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are much more quality games that generation that are easiler to understand and finish than there were in the NES or SNES era.

Huh? Where did i say that? Im just saying they are more complex than old ones, which is true. And its also true that they take up alotmore time.

Are you guys seriously denying that games in general got more complex and largerover the years? :roll:

It's not true. You are just doing it wrong. Compare Genre to Genre and do not make another 2D platformer vs 3D RPG comparison ever again, please!

They are however getting bigger.

It's talking about the 'vast majority of gamers'... Casuals. This generation has been easy, difficulty wise, with the few standing out from the crowd.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="JLF1"]

Actually there were games like that but they were on the PC. Which a lot of kids played games on back then.

Now for a serious question to you. Who cares if some games are too complex for a 5 year old to understand? Should every game be dumbed down so that anyone can play them? Yes MW2 is more complicated than NSMBW but what it wrong with that?

You are acting like every game this generation if overly complicated. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are much more quality games that generation that are easiler to understand and finish than there were in the NES or SNES era.

kontejner44

Huh? Where did i say that? Im just saying they are more complex than old ones, which is true. And its also true that they take up alotmore time.

Are you guys seriously denying that games in general got more complex and largerover the years? :roll:

It's not true. You are just doing it wrong. Compare Genre to Genre and do not make another 2D platformer vs 3D RPG comparison ever again, please!

They are however getting bigger.

Uh why? To suit your argument? OK then, i'll play along. Muramasa is more complex that Super Mario Bros, both are 2D platforming side scrollers. Castlevania Symphony of the Night is more complex than Metroid, both are 2D side scrollers. Games got more complex throughout the years. Fact.

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Huh? Where did i say that? Im just saying they are more complex than old ones, which is true. And its also true that they take up alotmore time.

Are you guys seriously denying that games in general got more complex and largerover the years? :roll:

Zerocrossings

It's not true. You are just doing it wrong. Compare Genre to Genre and do not make another 2D platformer vs 3D RPG comparison ever again, please!

They are however getting bigger.

Uh why? To suit your argument? OK then, i'll play along. Muramasa is more complex that Super Mario Bros, both are 2D platforming side scrollers. Castlevania Symphony of the Night is more complex than Metroid, both are 2D side scrollers. Games got more complex throughout the years. Fact.

Complex in that sense does not make it harder :>

You're that ONE guy who voted yes on the poll?

Huh? Where did i say that? Im just saying they are more complex than old ones, which is true. And its also true that they take up alotmore time.

Are you guys seriously denying that games in general got more complex and largerover the years? :roll:

Zerocrossings

Yes I am because it's not true.

Some franchises have and some genres have a great variety in depth and complexity.

You can't compare a 2D game to a 3D game and use that as a basis that games are getting more complicated for several reason. One, they are different genres. Two, 2D games are not dead and have actually become much easiler over the years.

Yes, MW2 is more complicated than NSMBW but so was SMB3 compared to NSMBW. If you want a more older complicated game take Master of Orion Daggerfall, Civilization, Wing Commander. Those are complicated as hell compared to SMB3 on the NES.
-

The word you are looking for is "evolved". Sure the FPS genre is very diffrent today than what it was 10 years ago but it hasn't become more complicated. Take the RPG genre, both JRPG and WRPG fans would argue that todays games are much less complicated than what they were ten years ago. Mass Effect, Fallout 3 or Dragon Age is nothing compared to Baldur's Gate or Fallout.

-

You have yet to answer my question though. Why is it bad that some games, not entire genres but some games in them, are getting more complicated when we have a ton (more than ever before) of easily played quality games on every system this generation for every kid to enjoy? You can sceam " they are only new games designed as old games" all you want but that doesn't make them go away.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

It's not true. You are just doing it wrong. Compare Genre to Genre and do not make another 2D platformer vs 3D RPG comparison ever again, please!

They are however getting bigger.

kontejner44

Uh why? To suit your argument? OK then, i'll play along. Muramasa is more complex that Super Mario Bros, both are 2D platforming side scrollers. Castlevania Symphony of the Night is more complex than Metroid, both are 2D side scrollers. Games got more complex throughout the years. Fact.

Complex in that sense does not make it harder :>

You're that ONE guy who voted yes on the poll?

Dude did you even read my first post.The article isnot talking difficulty, but complexity and learning curves. In Super Mario Bros, you have a D-pad, 2 red buttons and your goal is to move right and jump on a flagpole. Im beginning to think that you are trolling me. >_>

And I havent voted yet, but i shall.

EDIT: Actually, i dont think i will. I dont really agree that games are too complicated, just more complicated.

Uh why? To suit your argument? OK then, i'll play along. Muramasa is more complex that Super Mario Bros, both are 2D platforming side scrollers. Castlevania Symphony of the Night is more complex than Metroid, both are 2D side scrollers. Games got more complex throughout the years. Fact.

Zerocrossings

Odin Sphere was much harder and more complex than Muramasa yet Muramasa is the youngest game.

You also can't button-mash your way through a 2D Mario game. You can, except for the bosses, do that in Muramasa.

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Uh why? To suit your argument? OK then, i'll play along. Muramasa is more complex that Super Mario Bros, both are 2D platforming side scrollers. Castlevania Symphony of the Night is more complex than Metroid, both are 2D side scrollers. Games got more complex throughout the years. Fact.

Zerocrossings

Complex in that sense does not make it harder :>

You're that ONE guy who voted yes on the poll?

Dude did you even read my first post.The article isnot talking difficulty, but complexity and learning curves. In Super Mario Bros, you have a D-pad, 2 red buttons and your goal is to move right and jump on a flagpole. Im beginning to think that you are trolling me. >_>

And I havent voted yet, but i shall.

The title says "too hard"

simple answer: In general, no.

That article smells casual to me, it's a view of gaming from a non gamers PoV

"The nature of the majority, as one developer told me recently, is that their preference is to "just dick around" rather than follow the structure. It's not just an occasional thing – in terms of behavior its pretty much pervasive. There's always a minority that plays things the way the studio intended"

That's why I heavily dislike Sandbox mode. I want the dev to direct me, I want him/her to tell me how to play the game, how it is supposed to be played, how you are supposed to do in order to get those star coins in NSMB. That's why I prefer 2D games, they are very direct and tells me exactly how the developer was thinking.

"The nature of the majority, as one developer told me recently, is that their preference is to "just dick around" rather than follow the structure. It's not just an occasional thing – in terms of behavior its pretty much pervasive. There's always a minority that plays things the way the studio intended"

That's why I heavily dislike Sandbox mode. I want the dev to direct me, I want him/her to tell me how to play the game, how it is supposed to be played, how you are supposed to do in order to get those star coins in NSMB. That's why I prefer 2D games, they are very direct and tells me exactly how the developer was thinking.

kontejner44

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Huh? Where did i say that? Im just saying they are more complex than old ones, which is true. And its also true that they take up alotmore time.

Are you guys seriously denying that games in general got more complex and largerover the years? :roll:

JLF1

Yes I am because it's not true.

Gonna use red fonts because this post is kinda long.

Some franchises have and some genres have a great variety in depth and complexity.

You can't compare a 2D game to a 3D game and use that as a basis that games are getting more complicated for several reason. One, they are different genres. Two, 2D games are not dead and have actually become much easiler over the years.

So? 3d games are still newer, and more complex. I dont get why i cant compare different genres. Oh and even 2D games got more complexed, see one of my previous posts.

Yes, MW2 is more complicated than NSMBW but so was SMB3 compared to NSMBW. If you want a more older complicated game take Master of Orion Daggerfall, Civilization, Wing Commander. Those are complicated as hell compared to SMB3 on the NES.

Those games did not make up most of the library in those days. Games in general are more complex and huge nowadays. Complexity wise:

Godhand>>>Streets of Rage, Sonic Rush>>>>Sonic, SMG>>>> Super Mario Bros

With that said, i can agree that a fewolder games can be more complicated than new ones.For example, in my opinion, the complexity chart goes like this.

PS1 era = PS2 era > This Gen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Snes/Genesis>>>Nes>Atari>>>Pong
-

The word you are looking for is "evolved". Sure the FPS genre is very diffrent today than what it was 10 years ago but it hasn't become more complicated.

Debatable, but see above.

Take the RPG genre, both JRPG and WRPG fans would argue that todays games are much less complicated than what they were ten years ago. Mass Effect, Fallout 3 or Dragon Age is nothing compared to Baldur's Gate or Fallout.

Debatable as well.

-

You have yet to answer my question though. Why is it bad that some games, not entire genres but some games in them, are getting more complicated

Because its not bad. But its more time consuming to game now, which is the point of the article.

when we have a ton (more than ever before) of easily played quality games on every system this generation for every kid to enjoy? You can sceam " they are only new games designed as old games" all you want but that doesn't make them go away.

More than ever? In the NES era pretty much100% of the games are simple. Now there are more percentage of complex games.

Wow, that was a mouthful. I think i'll stop here now, probably get back to you in like..20 hours if you reply,andif the topic doesnt float too far off.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

Complex in that sense does not make it harder :>

You're that ONE guy who voted yes on the poll?

kontejner44

Dude did you even read my first post.The article isnot talking difficulty, but complexity and learning curves. In Super Mario Bros, you have a D-pad, 2 red buttons and your goal is to move right and jump on a flagpole. Im beginning to think that you are trolling me. >_>

And I havent voted yet, but i shall.

The title says "too hard"

simple answer: In general, no.

That article smells casual to me, it's a view of gaming from a non gamers PoV

Maybe you should read full articles instead of just..you know, the title?

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Dude did you even read my first post.The article isnot talking difficulty, but complexity and learning curves. In Super Mario Bros, you have a D-pad, 2 red buttons and your goal is to move right and jump on a flagpole. Im beginning to think that you are trolling me. >_>

And I havent voted yet, but i shall.

Zerocrossings

The title says "too hard"

simple answer: In general, no.

That article smells casual to me, it's a view of gaming from a non gamers PoV

Maybe you should read full articles instead of just..you know, the title?

More complex does not mean harder. What's the point of stating that games are more complex today?

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Uh why? To suit your argument? OK then, i'll play along. Muramasa is more complex that Super Mario Bros, both are 2D platforming side scrollers. Castlevania Symphony of the Night is more complex than Metroid, both are 2D side scrollers. Games got more complex throughout the years. Fact.

JLF1

Odin Sphere was much harder and more complex than Muramasa yet Muramasa is the youngest game.

See my previous post, i do not believe games complexity havechanged muchsince the PS1 era. Which is why i used Castlevania SoN as an example.

You also can't button-mash your way through a 2D Mario game. You can, except for the bosses, do that in Muramasa.

Which makes Muramasa more complex.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

The title says "too hard"

simple answer: In general, no.

That article smells casual to me, it's a view of gaming from a non gamers PoV

kontejner44

Maybe you should read full articles instead of just..you know, the title?

More complex does not mean harder. What's the point of stating that games are more complex today?

Read the damn thing, then get back to me. If you did, work on your comprehension skills.

I find games today too easy. Even on highest difficulty settings, I don't get too much of a real challenge. Oft times, it's just bad guys with upped health and damage, and me with less health. Nothing beyond the superfluous addition of health and damage.

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Maybe you should read full articles instead of just..you know, the title?

Zerocrossings

More complex does not mean harder. What's the point of stating that games are more complex today?

Read the damn thing, then get back to me. If you did, work on your comprehension skills.

I'm not gonna read something that can be explained in 2 sentences