Games Too Hard, Too Big?

some games are to hard..

See my previous post, i do not believe games complexity havechanged muchsince the PS1 era. Which is why i used Castlevania SoN as an example.

Which makes Muramasa more complex.

Zerocrossings

How does Muramasa being a button-masher and Mario not make Muramasa a more complicated game? It's the opposite, you don't have to think when you play Muramasa, you have to do that when you are playing Mario.

-

See my previous post, i do not believe games complexity havechanged muchsince the PS1 era. Which is why i used Castlevania SoN as an example.

I can agree that genres have evolved to become more complicated in the N64 and PS1 genre but that kind of kills this article's point doesn't it. The article you posted talked about this generation. This generation has not become more complicated than the two previous generations and don't try with the laughable "debatable" defense. Come up with some actual proof and I might listen to you.

Yes, Symphony of Night was more complicated than Castlevania on the NES, it was also much easier. But it ended there though. The genre didn't move on from there just like the FPS genre hasn't moved on on consoles sense Halo on the Xbox 9 years ago.

That's the main problem with the article, it asumes that games have gotten more and more complex and difficult this generation which simply isn't true. That is true over a 20 year period but not this generation. It also hasn't killed the easy games. They are actually much more healthier today then ever.

-

More than ever? In the NES era pretty much 100% of the games are simple. Now there are more percentage of complex games.

Yes, there are much more easily played quality games this generation than there existed on the NES, Master System, SNES and Mega Drive. The majority of the games on those systems was simply broken, awful or simply trash.

What has percentage to do with anything? It's the pure numbers of games that matters.

It's true that there exist more complicated games today than ten years ago but only in pure numbers. That is also the case with high quality small easy games that isn't complicated at all. So again, why is it a problem that we have more complicated games in pure numbers this generation if we at the same time also have a ton more high quality easy games? No one is forcing little 5 year old Jimmy to play the overly complicated MW2 when he can just as easily play any of the 100+ high quality games aimed at children instead.

[QUOTE="majadamus"]

[QUOTE="Zakeris"]It seems to me games are actually shorter and easier than previous gens., possibly due to high development costs. Anyways, whats the avg. game length these days? 6-8 hours? Have they always been that short? Perhaps they just seem shorter cause they're easier to beat now....*shrug*HuusAsking

I remember playing some games in the past like Streets of Rage 2. That game could be beaten in one sitting. I think it's about the same as it was in the past. It's just shorter games (6-8 hour games) are kind of the norm. Hardcore gamers don't make up a huge chunk of the percentage when it comes to gamers. A lot of people rather be doing some other things than just play video games all day.

Ya, true. But, I still think developers had in mind, while developing their games, that gamers weren't going to spend 20-30 hours playing. A lot of those games were arcade games too where'd you'd expect to only spend a couple minutes to maybe a half hour on them. Arcade games were ported too.

I wonder how many people actually read the article...

Lets make something clear here. We are comparing OLD games with NEW games. The most logical comparison would be SMB on NES vs NSMBW on Wii. Screw Dragon age and all that because those are complex GENRES not games.

People compare the controls being simple, well it makes sense, NES controler looks and is more simple. With that said, I was refering to gameplay mechanics. The majority of people get bored out of Trial and Error gameplay, it's a huge turn off.

kontejner44

Demon's Souls begs to differ in one instance

Games are getting hard? :lol:

Games today are too easy. And not long enough to justify the 50/60 bucks we spend on them.

No, and no. Games are easier this generation than any before, and last generation, most games were larger by scale.

Games Today are EASIER!

Just look at the original Ninja Gaiden Games. Some say that the 1st Ninja Gaiden is just unbeatable!

EDIT: Oh they're talking about Developing.

If anything, games are too easy. Normal difficulty on most things isn't even challenging. Devs need to realize the difference between a game being hard and a game being unfair.

For instance: Ninja Gaiden Black is a hard game. It requires practice, patience, and intelligence. However, when you die (and you will die), you'll understand why you messed up.

Call of Duty: World At War on Veteran, however, is not hard. It's unfair.

As for length... I want longer games. Games ae way too short nowadays, and a lot of them have no replay value. It's kinda sad. :(

[QUOTE="nintendog66"][QUOTE="siLVURcross"]Not hard and big enough ;)Zerocrossings

I loled.

I like where this thread is going :lol: :P

Sure, the initial learning curve is now higher (meaning the first time you ever play a 3d game) but games are generally easier than ever and they're certainly also shorter compared to at least last gen.

i agree to some extent, i don't think the diffuculty is bad, but usually the good games are too short, and the bad games are too long. Regardless of the time, if i'm enjoying myself i always want MOAR!!!. Which is terrible for a 6 hour game, but if the game sucks then grinding through 20+ hours of suck makes me want to destroy the dev's for making the game so long.

most of the games are far too easy, but some are really too long when it comes to see all the content. I hate all this gta games that have some features like select 100 things in this place, like prince of persia or assassins creed, not to mention about all those mmos. Since achievements hit the market nearly every game has some collect 100 things elements or shoot all the medals which are randomly placed.

I wouldn't say they're hard, but some games can be overly big. For example, some games frustrate me with overwhelming multiple paths, and I'm afraid I might miss something. But yeah, I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a game over screen in a SP game. 8)

If anything, games are too easy. Normal difficulty on most things isn't even challenging. Devs need to realize the difference between a game being hard and a game being unfair.

For instance: Ninja Gaiden Black is a hard game. It requires practice, patience, and intelligence. However, when you die (and you will die), you'll understand why you messed up.

Call of Duty: World At War on Veteran, however, is not hard. It's unfair.

As for length... I want longer games. Games ae way too short nowadays, and a lot of them have no replay value. It's kinda sad. :(

DarkLink77

The games are longer than before, I don't know what games you play but yeah in general they are. Older games felt longer because you got stuck/died. Memorize it, go back and replay them, and you will find that they last no longer than a couple of hours too.

I suggest you play real man games! like SMG which takes 60 hours to get all 242 stars. Sure you can say it's pseudo 60 and in reality 30 hours, but there's your replay value you seem to miss.

Metroid Prime Trilogy: 3 games, yes 2 old, but with enhanced controls which is a must re-play. 80 hours of gameplay there.

Zelda TP is ~50 hours.

They must have started gaming this gen if people find games hard, yes, there are some games designed to be hard, but many come with difficulty options on hardest settings and are still beatable easier once you figure out how to play them. And this list of hard games beg to differ.

Big is what I agree with though.

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

Lets make something clear here. We are comparing OLD games with NEW games. The most logical comparison would be SMB on NES vs NSMBW on Wii. Screw Dragon age and all that because those are complex GENRES not games.

People compare the controls being simple, well it makes sense, NES controler looks and is more simple. With that said, I was refering to gameplay mechanics. The majority of people get bored out of Trial and Error gameplay, it's a huge turn off.

muzik_mafia

Demon's Souls begs to differ in one instance

The day that kind of game pass SMG / NSMBW / Resort in sales is the day I quit gaming, seriously.

(spoiler: never happening)

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

If anything, games are too easy. Normal difficulty on most things isn't even challenging. Devs need to realize the difference between a game being hard and a game being unfair.

For instance: Ninja Gaiden Black is a hard game. It requires practice, patience, and intelligence. However, when you die (and you will die), you'll understand why you messed up.

Call of Duty: World At War on Veteran, however, is not hard. It's unfair.

As for length... I want longer games. Games ae way too short nowadays, and a lot of them have no replay value. It's kinda sad. :(

kontejner44

The games are longer than before, I don't know what games you play but yeah in general they are. Older games felt longer because you got stuck/died. Memorize it, go back and replay them, and you will find that they last no longer than a couple of hours too.

I suggest you play real man games! like SMG which takes 60 hours to get all 242 stars. Sure you can say it's pseudo 60 and in reality 30 hours, but there's your replay value you seem to miss.

Metroid Prime Trilogy: 3 games, yes 2 old, but with enhanced controls which is a must re-play. 80 hours of gameplay there.

Zelda TP is ~50 hours.

Uh guys, its not talking about difficulty difficulty but, the amount of content, and the learning curves, which i can totally agree on.

Believe it or not games nowadays are far more complex than those in the past, which you can just pick up and play.

Zerocrossings

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

If anything, games are too easy. Normal difficulty on most things isn't even challenging. Devs need to realize the difference between a game being hard and a game being unfair.

For instance: Ninja Gaiden Black is a hard game. It requires practice, patience, and intelligence. However, when you die (and you will die), you'll understand why you messed up.

Call of Duty: World At War on Veteran, however, is not hard. It's unfair.

As for length... I want longer games. Games ae way too short nowadays, and a lot of them have no replay value. It's kinda sad. :(

DarkLink77

The games are longer than before, I don't know what games you play but yeah in general they are. Older games felt longer because you got stuck/died. Memorize it, go back and replay them, and you will find that they last no longer than a couple of hours too.

I suggest you play real man games! like SMG which takes 60 hours to get all 242 stars. Sure you can say it's pseudo 60 and in reality 30 hours, but there's your replay value you seem to miss.

Metroid Prime Trilogy: 3 games, yes 2 old, but with enhanced controls which is a must re-play. 80 hours of gameplay there.

Zelda TP is ~50 hours.

well that most certainly says something about Nintendo!

this has to be a trick question,definitely not.

[QUOTE="muzik_mafia"]

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

Lets make something clear here. We are comparing OLD games with NEW games. The most logical comparison would be SMB on NES vs NSMBW on Wii. Screw Dragon age and all that because those are complex GENRES not games.

People compare the controls being simple, well it makes sense, NES controler looks and is more simple. With that said, I was refering to gameplay mechanics. The majority of people get bored out of Trial and Error gameplay, it's a huge turn off.

kontejner44

Demon's Souls begs to differ in one instance

The day that kind of game pass SMG / NSMBW / Resort in sales is the day I quit gaming, seriously.

(spoiler: never happening)

Because you don't like them? Or because that would be ridicuous.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="kontejner44"]

The games are longer than before, I don't know what games you play but yeah in general they are. Older games felt longer because you got stuck/died. Memorize it, go back and replay them, and you will find that they last no longer than a couple of hours too.

I suggest you play real man games! like SMG which takes 60 hours to get all 242 stars. Sure you can say it's pseudo 60 and in reality 30 hours, but there's your replay value you seem to miss.

Metroid Prime Trilogy: 3 games, yes 2 old, but with enhanced controls which is a must re-play. 80 hours of gameplay there.

Zelda TP is ~50 hours.

kontejner44

well that most certainly says something about Nintendo!

:lol:

:|

Games are too easy and short these days...

Dear God is this an even bigger poll domination than the one asking if single player games should die?

No.

I disagree. I'm a full time college student and work about 25-30 hours a week managing a restaurant and I have no problem getting new games and being able to be quite good at them

Dear God is this an even bigger poll domination than the one asking if single player games should die?

oldkingallant

Not quite. I think that one had like 1000 votes on it with only 3% agreeing. Pretty damn embarrassing

When I look at games like bad company 2 and supreme commander 2, games are only getting easier and smaller.

Good god no. The games I grew up playing make games these days look like a cakewalk. Anyone remember the original Bards tale series?blue_hazy_basic

Ugh... Games are far too easy. I dunno where this logic is coming from. If games got dumbed down any further you could just tap one button to beat them.

If anything games need to be much more naturally difficult. Enough of this, harder difficulty = cheating AI.

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

[QUOTE="muzik_mafia"]

Demon's Souls begs to differ in one instance

muzik_mafia

The day that kind of game pass SMG / NSMBW / Resort in sales is the day I quit gaming, seriously.

(spoiler: never happening)

Because you don't like them? Or because that would be ridicuous.

Because if Trial and Error gameplay gets standard again I will quit gaming because I fint it boring, same goes for if gaming turns into farmville games. I pretty much am into the mainstream games that sell very well, so yeah it's because I personally don't like that type of game.

[QUOTE="muzik_mafia"]

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

The day that kind of game pass SMG / NSMBW / Resort in sales is the day I quit gaming, seriously.

(spoiler: never happening)

kontejner44

Because you don't like them? Or because that would be ridicuous.

Because if Trial and Error gameplay gets standard again I will quit gaming because I fint it boring, same goes for if gaming turns into farmville games. I pretty much am into the mainstream games that sell very well, so yeah it's because I personally don't like that type of game.

Ugh... Games are far too easy. I dunno where this logic is coming from. If games got dumbed down any further you could just tap one button to beat them.

If anything games need to be much more naturally difficult. Enough of this, harder difficulty = cheating AI.

Mystic-G

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

[QUOTE="muzik_mafia"]

Because you don't like them? Or because that would be ridicuous.

oldkingallant

Because if Trial and Error gameplay gets standard again I will quit gaming because I fint it boring, same goes for if gaming turns into farmville games. I pretty much am into the mainstream games that sell very well, so yeah it's because I personally don't like that type of game.

"Perhaps the game's greatest triumph, however, is that it takes qualities normally associated with frustration and discomfort--constant trial and error, slow progression, harsh enemies--and makes them virtues"

from kevin V's written review

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

See my previous post, i do not believe games complexity havechanged muchsince the PS1 era. Which is why i used Castlevania SoN as an example.

Which makes Muramasa more complex.

JLF1

How does Muramasa being a button-masher and Mario not make Muramasa a more complicated game? It's the opposite, you don't have to think when you play Muramasa, you have to do that when you are playing Mario.

Well, you've obviously not played Muramasa. Mindlessbutton mashing kills you in late stages and the inventory system itself already makes it more complex than Mario.

-

I can agree that genres have evolved to become more complicated in the N64 and PS1 genre but that kind of kills this article's point doesn't it. The article you posted talked about this generation. This generation has not become more complicated than the two previous generations and don't try with the laughable "debatable" defense. Come up with some actual proof and I might listen to you.

Yes, Symphony of Night was more complicated than Castlevania on the NES, it was also much easier. But it ended there though. The genre didn't move on from there just like the FPS genre hasn't moved on on consoles sense Halo on the Xbox 9 years ago.

That's the main problem with the article, it asumes that games have gotten more and more complex and difficult this generation which simply isn't true. That is true over a 20 year period but not this generation. It also hasn't killed the easy games. They are actually much more healthier today then ever.

Yes it did say it was this gen, but which gen are they comparing to? NES? SNES? Or PS1/PS2 era? I am comparing it to the 2D days, where games were simple and had a simple goal. Imo, it took a huge leap from the PS1 era and has stayed there ever since. If you are comparingthis gento PS1/PS2 than i agree that games hasnt changed much.

-


Yes, there are much more easily played quality games this generation than there existed on the NES, Master System, SNES and Mega Drive. The majority of the games on those systems was simply broken, awful or simply trash.

What has percentage to do with anything? It's the pure numbers of games that matters.

It's true that there exist more complicated games today than ten years ago but only in pure numbers. That is also the case with high quality small easy games that isn't complicated at all. So again, why is it a problem that we have more complicated games in pure numbers this generation if we at the same time also have a ton more high quality easy games? No one is forcing little 5 year old Jimmy to play the overly complicated MW2 when he can just as easily play any of the 100+ high quality games aimed at children instead.

Percantage has to do with everything. There are broken games being released these days to, hece, its more accurate to take percentage as a measure. Andthere are more percentage ofcomplex games than in the past, fact.

I think im done with this thread, the argument isnt moving anywhere at all, its just an endurance round.

Oh and at that Okami avatar guy, since you arent bothering to read the article(Which is the main point of this thread lol), i wont bother giving you a serious response.

Have a nice day people. :)

I read this article. And basically it's saying that games are too hard, and too big for us older gamers probably in their mid twenties and up since we don't have a lot of time to play anymore. I'm 25, and only with a part time job. So, I got plenty of time to play games until I get another job. And the thing I like about lengthy and challenging games is I feel you get more bang for your buck. Ya, Mr. Davison says people are greedy, but we should be getting what we paid for. If games are going to be shorten than I want a price cut.

majadamus

[QUOTE="majadamus"]

I read this article. And basically it's saying that games are too hard, and too big for us older gamers probably in their mid twenties and up since we don't have a lot of time to play anymore. I'm 25, and only with a part time job. So, I got plenty of time to play games until I get another job. And the thing I like about lengthy and challenging games is I feel you get more bang for your buck. Ya, Mr. Davison says people are greedy, but we should be getting what we paid for. If games are going to be shorten than I want a price cut.

amaneuvering

[QUOTE="oldkingallant"][QUOTE="kontejner44"]

Because if Trial and Error gameplay gets standard again I will quit gaming because I fint it boring, same goes for if gaming turns into farmville games. I pretty much am into the mainstream games that sell very well, so yeah it's because I personally don't like that type of game.

kontejner44

"Perhaps the game's greatest triumph, however, is that it takes qualities normally associated with frustration and discomfort--constant trial and error, slow progression, harsh enemies--and makes them virtues"

from kevin V's written review

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="nintendog66"] That's what she said. ;)AdobeArtist

I loled.

I like where this thread is going :lol: :P

Me, too. Cue plumber, sorority house, and soft jazz.

Too long and too hard. 8)