Games where A.I.'s are complete morons.

If you're not smart enough to be understanding what I've been saying there really is not much I can do. I really do hope you get the help you need one day.

To help you one last time. They put a gun in Joel's hand, give you the ammo and mechanic to shoot that gun. Yet if I use that very gun they gave me I'm playing the game wrong? Just think that over for a little bit. Maybe one day you'll get there. I can see for the moment you're quite upset so probably just mull it over for a week or so. I believe in you champ, we'll get through this.

Eh, ruthless in the same sense that a bot is ruthless. They're not actually doing anything smart. They're just going to kill your ass much quicker if they see you because they rarely miss and Sam isn't a bullet sponge.

I can get the same experience out of MGSV with a couple of changes in Infinite Heaven. And yes, I understand that that's not part of the base game, but it just goes to show that it's not some feat of programming or AI design prowess. It's just tweaking some values.

But yeah, in an alerted state they're going to **** you up quickly in SC. In the sneaking and evasion states? They're no better than MGS. Same goes for the Thief games. As much as people like to shit on MGS AI, these three franchises have eerily similar routines when it comes to that.

There's the whole "wait, what was that? Thought I saw something? Just my imagination?" business, and at best they may walk over to the place where the AI registered your presence. If the game takes things like footprints or blood trails into account, they'll follow those next.

Then there is the whole "Oh shit, get that fucker!" phase in which you're pretty much safe if you get out of the immediate area.

Then the cool down or evasion phase in which you either stay safe where you are, or go for the risk and try to slip by the the enemies in search mode. The only stealth game I know of that forces you to change hiding spots during a cool down mode is MGS2 on extreme. But that game has the benefit of being claustrophobic bite size rooms, so programming the AI to do thorough search procedures wasn't too much of a task.

Metal Gears AI comes off as extra stupid because all of the guards come from the Helen Keller school of seeing and the Storm Trooper academy of shooting. Those aren't really issues with the AI, those are the values that Kojima ran with because I guess he thought it would work best for what he's going for. I'm not trying to sweep those issues under the rug by any means, just saying they're more of a design choice than actual dumb AI coding.

And there are things about MGS that are straight up dumb shit AI. I shouldn't be able to throw a magazine at a guards head an infinite amount of times without him finally being like "what the **** is going on here!". I shouldn't able to knock on a surface, hide, knock on another surface, hide, and have the guard continue to follow some loop forever. I shouldn't be able to snipe a guy standing next to another guy and dude just looks over and says "what's wrong?" lol.

To the point, yeah MGS AI is the definition of short bus material. No arguments here. It's just that other stealth games aren't really doing us any better. Enemies can see further and bring you to a fail state faster, but the actual routines are all still very much primitive. And unlike MGS, Thief and SC AI tends to glitch the **** out at the worst times. It's funny to see for sure, but damn it's an immersion breaker.

I think AI is one of the most important aspects of a stealth game, yet we've seen such little improvement from that aspect of the genre in the past decade or more. Mechanics keep improving. Level design has been damn near perfected (and if we're being honest, it's actually regressed in many cases). But the same old status quo AI doesn't seem to be going anywhere. The overall set of phases works, but they should be more organic. There should be more variation in their reactions. I guess what I'm saying is that it's all in the details that are clearly missing. I don't know dick about the challenges that come with programming/designing good AI, but it just seems that with all the advancement in hardware and software, that we should be seeing intricate branches of possibilities regarding AI in stealth games. Instead, you can dick around with one enemy for about 10 minutes and know everything you need to know about how the AI works. And chances are if you've played a stealth game, then you already know.

**** I didn't mean for this post to get this big lol.

@soulitane: So your argument boils down to "YOU'RE DUMB!!!"

Excellent.

No, I've explained my argument from the very first post. You have just been having a very hard time understanding it. If you need further help, just ask.

As I said in my first post. You argument is stupid because ND gave you a mechanic, yet you're saying you're playing wrong if you use it. Developers don't put in mechanics if they don't intend for people to use them. If they wanted to make a stealth game, they would. Instead they gave you the option to play stealthily (the safer option) or to play it as a shooter.

I don't thing there is a game out there without broken AI moments.

@soulitane: Trust me "side mechanic" is not some deep description of how a game works....don't worry I get it.

I'm not reading that extended edited post either.

So now you're ignoring my argument because you have no rebuttal? This really is too easy.

At least give me one thought out answer as to why I shouldn't be shooting in TLOU.

I have the original release Crysis 2 on my laptop. I think at this stage it can be called a lot of things except buggy. It's been running great from the start of my replay to the part I join up with Marines.

I don't know if it's been patched. But, I haven't seen the bunching up on a wall dumb AI so far. Maybe later.

Fallout 4 , so fucking stupid

lol Bethesda.

It's one thing when the players actions cause the AI to lose it like that. Most games are susceptible to fucking up in that regard. But Bethesda games just break on their own, it's ridiculous.

You novel posted champ. Put that into perspective.

Actually it's just a really good post, I can't really argue against it, I got nothing to add to that lol.

Thanks man. And yeah, sorry, I don't typically go all "read this book" on people with my posts. Stealth games get me chatty like that.

Random and tangential to the point, but just an example I was thinking of.

Think of The End from MGS3. No, not the boss fight itself, I know you're not really on that bandwagon, but the way he would react to you.

If he sees you in close proximity while your back is turned, he doesn't shit his pants. He sneaks up quietly and gets the jump on you. Likewise, if you get the jump on him he doesn't go all Rambo on your ass, he runs for safety.

Why can't actions like this be built into your fodder AI? Like sure, if you're infiltrating some compound, and some bored guard is working his typical boring shift, of course he's going to lose his shit when he sees an actual threat. But once you've evaded and the whole base knows that someone was there? Why wouldn't they wise up just a bit? Why wouldn't a billy-bad-ass guard who spots you try to be a hero and sneak up for a kill? Why must they all telegraph the fact that they spotted you again with "HOLY **** HE'S HERE!".... It would be cool to have that kind of dynamic going on with the AI. Maybe he even quietly signals a near by buddy to come help him out. Maybe you can be on to them as well and lure them into an ambush. I'd love to see some layers like that.

I dunno man. It's just one of thousands of ways that stealth game AI could be more so much more involving and satisfying. I could really go on, trust me, I've thought about this shit for a long time lol.

Some day I'd love to work with a team on a stealth game. They'll either tell me that my ideas are good, or tell me to **** right off because those ideas are actually impossible to implement lol.

I just want to know why we're stuck in this rut and if it's really just that tough to push things further.

actually, people were quite disappointed about the visuals, cause the demo looked way better than the final game

@jun_aka_pekto: Sometimes the AI slides across the floor (not too often) or the soldiers driving the trucks are just sitting there brain dead, and I have seen the ceph running into walls but it's ok when it works. I have patch 1.9 and there are still visual bugs and AI bugs present, but it doesn't make the game unplayable.

Bugs aside, it's actually quite visually stunning aside from the ghosting inducing AA, which you can remove but then it's a pain to get other AA working with it. Once you force AF and assuming you're not running the bugged DX9 mode, it's nice. In general it's a buggy console port that was halfway fixed later.

I do think it's a fun game at its core, jumping around and being a walking tank in armor mode is fun but there is a clear lack of polish.

I haven't tried Crysis 3 yet to know if it's any better, can't stand the first game.

The game actively punishes you hard for trying to play the game like a shooter though. It's a panic crutch more than anything else or something you might utilize towards the end of an encounter. Stealth and smart approach is the order of the day with this game.

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines (PC) - Admittedly, stealth was high, but how in the hell do religious nutjobs NOT notice my Toreador RIGHT near them before they get stabbed or get their necks broke?

Star Fox Assault (GameCube) - How do you NOT notice an explosion behind you?

Star Wars: Jedi Knight II - Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy (PC): The AI makes thugs and Stormtroopers look worse than they really are when they charge RIGHT off a ledge.

What do you mean? What is the case, compared to what you expected? I'm interested because I didn't know 3D platformers really required decent ai.

That said, I was playing Tomb Raider Anniversary, this bear had some strange behaviour where it would run away around the corner if you moved up a platform where it couldn't reach you.

Ah, that reminds me, Gears of War 1. I remember half the struggle was keeping some of the dumb friendly ai alive on the harder difficulties.

I think they just "exposed" the AI more in that game, not that it actually has worse A.I. However for as great as that game was, it's hard not to notice a few moments of "weirdness" involving what the AI partner is doing in the environment (i.e. running out into the middle of a firefight, when you don't even want to start a firefight).

That being said, A.I. is something that really needs to come a long way, and it really hasn't.... it's almost seemed to flatline in the last gen or so. Especially with the popularity of shooters and such.

Call of Duty always comes to mind for me as far as braindead A.I. It's funny that your partners are bullet sponge, and the enemy A.I. is a bullet sponge when you are partner is shooting them. I've observed instances where there are two A.I.s standing like 5 feet away from each other unloading bullets into each other, but nothing happens to either. So many games just have really lazy A.I. and people don't care.

Resident Evil 4 / 5 ( maybe 6 also but i havent played it nor i will)

Warframe

Almost all Racing games

The AI in 'Souls is pretty dumb, they never adapt to their surroundings, they do the same moves over and over again. Still a fun game though.

The only games where AI ticks me off is in strategy games because 80% of the time it cheats on the harder difficulties.

Now that you mention them, One AI glitch I've seen is at the very first level. Occasionally, no one get out of the armored car and they just stare at me. I had to set a red propane tank next to them and blow it up. Out of maybe 8x I replayed the game, that happened twice.

I'll be more observant for crap AI in Crysis 2.

As for AA, I'm playing Crysis 2 in DX9 mode (DX11 is available) and Ultra settings. At 1366x768, it has less jaggies than say, The Witcher 3, Crysis 3, or Far Cry 3 at 1080p. I recall the game originally having more jaggies though. Perhaps, running it at Windows 10/DX12 helped.

AT 1366x768, there are definitely jaggies. But, it's not too bad, considering I play it on a small 14" laptop.

from what I've seem Rise of the Tomb Raider

It's heil. Given the anti-Nintendo posts and pro-Sony posts (which is apparently for the lolz), what do you expect?

Oh, cant have a negative opinion about your p[precious Nintendo,,,sorry they are perfect, my apologies.

Crysis had some comical AI tripping over dead bodies, especially at some re-spawn points.

Madden Series.

Titanfall.

@lostrib: @Toxic-Seahorse:"Especially the earlier games like Vice City. They would just suicide ram you. "

The Earlier games were programed to do that. Like how a crowd of people would be fighting for no reason.

I know they were. It's still bad AI to just spawn cops into oncoming traffic and have them try to ram right into you. Was funny when you sat under a bridge and watched all of the cop cars just keep flying off the bridge into the water.